Getting bombed at 250 feet?

[difool2]

[Perused some older threads on this topic, had to bring it up again tho]

Just came across a major TF (running the 1.4 version of the latest TM for stock, plus a few other minor things) with 2 Hiryu class CVs in mid '43. (:hmm:) I have a damaged boat with one rear torp, so I dared not mess with it. I kept track of numerous air patrols as the TF sailed past with my SD radar, but eventually they spotted me at periscope depth, so I went down to 160 (this in heavy seas), as per some older threads about TM. They spotted me again, so down I went to 250, where they spotted me and bombed me AGAIN! I finally risked going to 310, below the thermal layer, and prayed that my patchwork hull will hold together until nightfall.

Combined with the psychic all-seeing/hearing merchants who can spot your scope at 2000 yards on a moonless night in heavy seas, I might just go back to SH3. I'll try one more patrol with the new campaign layers mod, but this is downright silly; the British with all of their fancy technological doodads in the Atlantic would be envious of this kind of performance.

[Fincuan]

[Perused some older threads on this topic, had to bring it up again tho]
Combined with the psychic all-seeing/hearing merchants who can spot your scope at 2000 yards on a moonless night in heavy seas

Are you sure they don't just hear you? From 42-43 onwards most of the merchants have hydrophones, so it's entirely possible.

[seafarer]

My mistake - I thought this was a thread about torpedomen drinking the fuel from the mark 14's or something. I was going to warn you to remind them that those things run on methanol, not ethanol.

[M. Sarsfield]

Are you using Time Compression? That can be a contributor to their God-like powers, as well.

[Quillan]

Ducimus has posted about this a couple of times. Once he changed things so planes could see you below the surface, there's no longer a magic barrier that blocks sight; all there are anymore are modifiers. Given the right set of circumstances or just luck, they can spot you at 400+ feet depth. All I can suggest is go as deep as you can and don't run time compression over 8x-16x while you're waiting for the plane to pass. You cannot prevent them from seeing you, but you can minimize the chance.

[Ducimus]

Only planes have the ability to see submerged objects. Since nobody reads the FAQ, here is my canned response:

24.) Planes are detecting me at impossible depths! What gives?!

This mod assigns additional visual sensors to unit types. One of these sensors goes to just aircraft. This visual sensor gives aircraft the ability to detect shallow submerged objects. However, there is a small problem. The radius of visual detection can be adjusted, just not the depth. There is a long drawn out explanation for the way things are set the way they are, but suffice to say, yes occasionaly a plane will make a detection at a seemingly impossible depth. Such occurances are by my experience however, rare. Submerged visual detection by aircraft, isnt a 100% thing. Several factors come into play such as, what angle your sub is to the viewing plane (bows on vs broadside), state of the sea, lightinig level, fog level, etc. Every step has been made to ensure that submerged detection is as realistic as the game engine allows, and fair to the player. Visual detection was even made to be effected by thermal layers. So all that can be done, has been done. You may wonder why this was one at all. Simply because the positive aspects of this particular mod far outweigh the occasional scruple. In the end this is a MODIFCATION, a mod is really nothing more then a hack at a finished product. Its not like i have acces to the source code to effect "real" changes.

[tater]

Since RL airdropped IJN DCs couldn't explode any deeper than maybe 150 feet, this shouldn't be a problem.

Ducimus, if you are using air-DCs different than the 25m +-1m and 45m+-1m air dropped versions I did, you might consider using those values. Certainly for the deeper one.

I can see a wider range of depths for the shallower of the two since any slight error due to bomb path through the water (given the plan'es forward velocity) would be a larger % of the final depth. The deeper it went, seems like the closer to set depth it would be. Regardless, even at +-10, we're only talking 164 feet, max.

Alternately, the deep DC could be shallowed up some if you think that a sub would NEVER be spotted at 150 feet in RL as a way to tweak it (who cares if you are spotted at 400' if the plane can't do anything about it?).


tater

[Ducimus]

I did cap the bombs as to how deep they can go. I took the two historical figures you mentioned in an earlier post and capped them at about 1 meter to that depth if i remember correctly.

[Digital_Trucker]

Since RL airdropped IJN DCs couldn't explode any deeper than maybe 150 feet, this shouldn't be a problem............. (who cares if you are spotted at 400' if the plane can't do anything about it?).
tater

I do, if I'm detected at those depths all night long and can't surface at any time to recharge batteries or spend all night bobbing up and down like it's daytime.

[tater]

Planes can spot you at night that deep?

I'd have thought the light factor would make that virtually impossible. Hmm.

[Digital_Trucker]

Planes can spot you at night that deep?

I'd have thought the light factor would make that virtually impossible. Hmm.

I'd have thought that, too, but I have been bombed at 150 feet at 2AM in pitch black. It's too easy with S3D to remove the underwater detection, anyway, so anyone that doesn't like how it works can easily fix it for themselves.

[tater]

Odd that planes are even out that late, except maybe late in the war.

I wonder, if the plane gets radar, does airstrike.cfg let them fly at night?

Might be worth looking at and having radar equipped planes not have the new visual sensor.

[Ducimus]

>>I have been bombed at 150 feet at 2AM in pitch black

Color me credulous.

Even if that is possible, ive made planes spawn at such a low occurance, that well.. while they're not appearing very often, each and every time they do - you crap your pants. Which to me is a heck of alot better then saying "ho hum, another plane" as you stare out your periscope with utter impunity all the while impervious to anything resembeling danger or a threat.


From a gameplay standpoint, under their stock detection schema, SD radar makes ANY planes existance in the game world a moot point. They are a total non threat, non factor, and they may as well not exist at all. I changed that. Its not perfect, but it works, and they are definatly a factor now.

[Ducimus]

RE : late night planes.

I never did figure that one out. I dont think its radar. Occurs any year of the war. Its because i can't figure out why, that i further reduced air spawning.

[tater]

Follow up attacks if you have already been detected?

[Ducimus]

That could very well be. I set probabillty of an airstrike on player detection really high.

[Quillan]

I've seen planes at night before when I KNOW I have not been detected. It just happens, and no idea why. It happens in stock, so it carries over into the mods as well. I have to say that I rarely see planes in TM, but I certainly don't stay anywhere near the surface when one does show up on radar.

[Digital_Trucker]

Just to make things clear, I'm not saying that what happens in any mod is right or wrong. I don't use TM, but I've tested and played against planes that were equipped with the same and similar visual sensors.

As for the fact that planes shouldn't be out at night, I agree, but evidently the game doesn't care. I believe that night factor in airstrikes.cfg is to determine the likelihood of an attack being ordered from an airbase when you are detected. I don't think it controls what the patrol craft do (although, IMO, the patrol craft shouldn't even be out at night WITH radar, much less without). If someone knows some way to stop aircraft from showing up at night, please let us all know. I'd be happy to be extremely paranoid of aircraft at any depth in the daytime (which is how I normally approach them, whether I know what their sensors are capable of or not).

Edit : missed this one

Follow up attacks if you have already been detected?

Yep, I've been harassed for entire nights if close enough to an air base.

[tater]

Later in the war many (most?) of the maritime patrol aircraft were equipped with surface search radar, so seeing them at night would not be terribly surprising.

[difool2]

Planes can spot you at night that deep?

I'd have thought the light factor would make that virtually impossible. Hmm.
Yeah me too. :damn: Mind I had already researched all of this before I posted, but just had to vent. Not really Ducimus's (or any other modder's fault), but rather Ubi's and their laziness. Yeah it might take another man-month for them to properly tweak aircraft detection abilities to take into account sea state, visibility, aircraft angle to the sub, etc. etc., but IMHO it was something which was a core gameplay feature and they basically stuck some simple little algorithm in there which then leads to all these impossible spotting scenarios (and I include the TC "feature" in there too-many times I come out of high TC after my radar guy spots a plane and their course is dead-on to my boat-at 22 miles...).

My take is that yes a plane might be able to spot a submerged sub, but it would take an almost perfect combination of viewing angle, sun angle, light conditions, & sub depth (yeah 60 feet down might not be deep enough). A helicopter or blimp would have a much better chance, but a plane is either zipping along at 100 feet above the ocean, where it has a small fraction of a second to spot the sub 160 feet below, or is at 5,000 feet and any sub down there will blend into the shadows enough that they won't see it. IMHO it should be/was rare enough not to bother with as a simple little workaround after Ubi has already ensured that it is too much of a simplified black/white issue.

[difool2]

From a gameplay standpoint, under their stock detection schema, SD radar makes ANY planes existance in the game world a moot point. They are a total non threat, non factor, and they may as well not exist at all. I changed that. Its not perfect, but it works, and they are definatly a factor now.

I wouldn't go that far. If they have a CV (or even a CVE) in the convoy, making an end around would be pretty impossible given enough planes buzzing about.

[kylesplanet]

From a gameplay standpoint, under their stock detection schema, SD radar makes ANY planes existance in the game world a moot point. They are a total non threat, non factor, and they may as well not exist at all. I changed that. Its not perfect, but it works, and they are definatly a factor now.

I wouldn't go that far. If they have a CV (or even a CVE) in the convoy, making an end around would be pretty impossible given enough planes buzzing about.

That would be one of the only cases with stock planes. The SD radar is much better in game than in real life, it's not even modeled right. It should be on a scope and good lookouts could see the planes before the radar picked them up in good conditions.

As it is in game, when the SD picks up the plane, you can simply trim dive, no crash dive neccesary.:nope:

[Ducimus]

I know i have often thought of lowering the Max range on SD radar. I know there was a reason i didn't, but i dont remember what that reason was.


But no, the SD isn't modled properly. It gave out radar emissions that were similar to a 4 leave clover, (with 4 subsequent blind spots), not the solid 360 degree detection it gives in game.

[tater]

RL IJN CVs didn't fly constant ASW CAPs. Also, since the entire TF would need to turn into the wind to conduct TO or landing ops, it's really not a problem (since SH4 doesn't deal with this).

To be fair, there is not even a flight sim with anything remotely resembling real WW2 CV operations.

tater

[kylesplanet]

I know i have often thought of lowering the Max range on SD radar. I know there was a reason i didn't, but i dont remember what that reason was.


But no, the SD isn't modled properly. It gave out radar emissions that were similar to a 4 leave clover, (with 4 subsequent blind spots), not the solid 360 degree detection it gives in game.


Did the SD give just a bearing or could you get a range from it? From what I understand, if the SD picked it up you better be well on your way down.

[Ducimus]

IF i remember correctly, range only, no bearing.

[seaniam81]

IF i remember correctly, range only, no bearing.

Thats correct. And IF i recall correctly nobody had a night aircraft until very late in the war. Ever try flying across water at night? It's very very very hard unless you have radio nav aids to help find your location in the world. (Real world pilot here flown across the great lakes at night, thank god for GPS)

[Ducimus]

>>And IF i recall correctly nobody had a night aircraft until very late in the war.

Umm hmm, and if you can figure out how to fix that, be sure let me know.

[seaniam81]

No clue how to fix that. sorry i wasn't complaining or anything.

[AkbarGulag]

'Night Modifier=0.01' (Thanks donut) That fixed night planes.

You can still get aircraft up to 2 hours after sunset. It all depends on if you have been located, how long the airstrike.cfg inserts between aircraft strike requests 'Logic Steps Between Air Sessions=XX' and what the modifier is for the aircrafts veterency. This allows for stale contact intercepts also.

Night planes were a reality in the pacific. If admiral Fluckey says there was, and he feared them, then that pretty much makes it fact.

It has to be remembered, that ASW tactics from groundbased aircraft was a specialised role and would not be blanket equipped over the whole theatre. There were several efforts undertaken in IJN ASW Doctrine, radar equipped night planes was one of them.

As far as Ducimus efforts in this field, it's safe to say he was far better off including it than leaving it out. It was a wise decision for gameplay. As someone who has spent 10's of hours watching planes equipped with various sensors, I can appreciate the effort.

[M. Sarsfield]

Playing 1.5 with RSRDC I haven't really noticed many allied aircraft, let alone at night (u-boat career). I haven't played a US career with the add-on, yet, but maybe they fixed this?