Raider vs Cruiser Nov 1941

[Torps]

I never heard of this

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23654623/

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/kormoran-wreck-found/2008/03/16/1205602165197.html?s_cid=rss_news

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Sydney_(1934)

[Raptor1]

So...they pretty much found everything EXCEPT the Sydney?

I hope they'll find her somewhen in my lifetime...

[Sailor Steve]

Never heard of it?? I've always thought of it as a famous story; the only time an actual warship was tricked and sunk by a glorified merchant.

On the other hand, it may be because of my fascination with the previous war's HMAS Sydney, which tracked and sank the infamous German light cruiser SMS Emden.
http://www.worldwar1.co.uk/emden.html

The adventures of SMS Emden and the stolen schooner Ayesha would make an amazing movie.

[Torplexed]

Germany's U-Boats got most of the glory for sinking shipping, but those German commerce raiders had quite the career. One, the Michel operated out of Yokohama, Japan after a long stint in the Indian Ocean. On her return to Japan after a raid off the coast of Western Australia , just 50 miles out from port, Michel was spotted by US submarine Tarpon, who attacked in one of the few instances of American submarines attacking a German vessel during WWII, hitting her with 3 torpedoes. Michel sank, with 290 of her crew, including her captain. The survivors, 116 in total, were able to reach Japan after a three day journey in open boats.

[M. Sarsfield]

I'd like to see a mod where you can operate one of these raiders. Btw, weren't these normally referred to as "flaklighters"?

[Torplexed]

I believe the term the Germans used was Hilfskreuzer---Auxiliary Cruiser.

Also, Handels-Stor-Kreuzer---Raider Cruiser.

[Raptor1]

I always thought of the Kormoran vs. Sydney battle as a kind of rematch for the Battle of Cocos, where the first HMAS Sydney sank the SMS Emden

The Kormoran and the Atlantis are probably the most famous Hilfskreuzers, but still massively overshadowed by the U-Boats

[Syneval]

Let's not forget Graf von Luckner who went commerce-raiding (quite succesfully) in a sailing ship during the dreadnought era : )

[LZ_Baker]

Didn't one of them capture an entire whaling fleet in Anartica?

[Raptor1]

Aye, that would be the Pinguin, also a Hilfskreuzer

[Torplexed]

Didn't one of them capture an entire whaling fleet in Anartica?


Yes...the raider Pinguin. Her most successful coup was the capture of the Norwegian whaling fleet in Antarctica, totalling three factory ships and 11 whalers. These were sent back as prizes to Europe, arriving in Bordeaux, occupied France, in March 1941. One of the whalers was retained as an auxiliary raider, being re-named Adjutant.

[CCIP]

I've read a book on the raider Atlantis last year. Fascinating stuff! It's an almost completely-forgotten type of warfare of WWII, but really makes no less interesting type of history than subs do.

[Raptor1]

It's a shame we don't have more movies about surface raiders, the stories of SMS Emden, Kormoran and Atlantis (And a few more) could've made great movies, right now we only have the Battle of the River Plate (which is a great movie) and Sink the Bismarck (though it's usually forgotten that the Bismarck was supposed to be a merchant raider...)

[CCIP]

Yea, I mean just consider the length and breadth of those journeys! They make IXD2 boats look like bathtub toys by comparison :p

And the ingenuity that went into hiding the real purpose and identity of those ships is quite eyebrow-raising at times.

[Torplexed]

The success of the German raiders in the war weren't lost on the Japanese. In 1941,the Aikoku Maru and Hokoku Maru, two passenger-cargo vessels built for the Osaka Shipping Line’s South America route, were requisitioned for conversion to Armed Merchant Cruisers (AMC). Before and during the Pacific War, Japan converted 14 merchants to Armed Merchant Cruisers.

Although the first two of these ships initially enjoyed some successes, the early sinking of the Hokoku Maru and the pressing need for more transports to support their far-flung Pacific empire resulted in the reconversion of most of Japan’s AMC fleet. By the end of 1943, five of their AMCs had been sunk and seven reconverted. :ping:

[Sailor Steve]

I'd like to see a mod where you can operate one of these raiders. Btw, weren't these normally referred to as "flaklighters"?
I think the flaklighters were coastal convoy escorts. I saw them mentioned once in a book about the Channel PT-boat war.

Not sure, but I think this is him:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/SH3Img16-3-2008_16211_968.jpg

[M. Sarsfield]

Nice pic. Is that the SHIV museum?

[Quillan]

They've announced the finding of the wreckage of the Sydney:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/hmas-sydney-found-pm/2008/03/17/1205602237607.html

[bookworm_020]

They've announced the finding of the wreckage of the Sydney:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/hmas-sydney-found-pm/2008/03/17/1205602237607.html

Darn! You Beat me to the reply!:-?

[Raptor1]

Great, now they just need to find what happened to her...

[LukeFF]

Great, now they just need to find what happened to her...

Not likely to happen when all of Sydney's crew met their destiny at sea.

[TheSatyr]

Since the Kormoran survivors said the Sidney was on fire fore and aft when she disengaged,my guess would be that one of her magazines went off.

We'll know more when they start taking photos (or film) of her.

[JScones]

There's a pretty cool documentary (part of the Battlefront or somesuch series) that focuses on the German Commerce Raiders - even shows actual footage of Pinguin in action with the Norwegian Whaling fleet.

Highly recommended for those interested in this somewhat overlooked aspect of the sea war.

They've announced the finding of the wreckage of the Sydney:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/hmas-sydney-found-pm/2008/03/17/1205602237607.html
After finding the Kormoran I knew it would only be a short matter of time.

This is great to hear...but sad to hear at the same time. Still, a lot of closure for a lot of families.

[GerritJ9]

Some sonar scan images of both "Kormoran" and "Sydney" can be found here:

http://www.findingsydney.com/

Photos of the wrecks will probably be published at a later date.

[Sailor Steve]

Nice pic. Is that the SHIV museum?
SH3-GWX. I still can't play SH4.

Never heard of it?? I've always thought of it as a famous story; the only time an actual warship was tricked and sunk by a glorified merchant.
Re-reading this I can't believe I didn't remember it before. It was the only time in modern warfare that this happened, but two hundred years ago there was the converted merchant Bonhomme Richard vs the Frigate HMS Serapis; John Paul Jones vs Richard Pearson; "I have not yet begun to fight!"

[Raptor1]

Looking at the Sydney scans, the wreck seems relatively intact, wouldn't a magazine explosion tear the ship to pieces, like HMS Hood?

[Torps]

Sonar does indicate Sydney is in one piece and on her side.

[M. Sarsfield]

Yeah. The article said that they think the bow may have come off and it may have been the reason why she finally went down.

[Major Johnson]

The article said the large piece of debri in front the ship could be the bow. That being the case, the magazine hold may have been in that part of the ship and ignited, blowing the piece of the bow off. I imagine it wouldn't take long after that for the ship to sink.

[Raptor1]

We'll just have to wait for the ROV photos/videos to be sure, A magazine explosion on the front might explain why there are no survivors, but would also have probably vaporized the front section of the ship...

[M. Sarsfield]

How long were the two ships slugging it out before the Sydney disengaged? Maybe there was only enough ammo left to blow the bow off or ammo in the forward turret exploded. If German crews said they saw the boat ablaze fore and aft, then a magazine or forward turret explosion would be the most plausible cause.

[Raptor1]

Sydney's A and B turrets we're reportadly disabled shortly after the battle begun, so there should've been a considerable amount of shells still left in the forward magazine after the battle...

[TheSatyr]

Whatever happened,had to have happened fast for a ship of that size to go down with no survivors.

[bookworm_020]

Sydney's A and B turrets we're reportadly disabled shortly after the battle begun, so there should've been a considerable amount of shells still left in the forward magazine after the battle...

X turret was the one that caused the damage to the Kormoran in the battle. The others did't really get a look in.

[LZ_Baker]

Thats awesome that they finally found her. Maybe now they can finally solve all the misteries surrounding her.