Declaration Dates for WWII

[AkbarGulag]

After looking at the defSide.cfg I couldn't help but notice it brings New Zealand and Australia into WWII over a week late.

It has the date of those entries as september the 11th 1939 :o when in fact the date was September the 3rd. By default, because of the international dateline, we actually declared war before Britian. How could a game based on the very fact of WWII happening, get something like that so wrong.

Even South Africa and Canada have late start dates. Felt I had to share, considering how terrible it is. As if by proxy, we were not a serious combatant.

[Sailor Steve]

How could a game based on the very fact of WWII happening, get something like that so wrong.
Quite easily, apparently. Three years after the fact, people are still finding errors with that part of SH3.:dead:

[AkbarGulag]

If you were not here to lighten up the mood Steve, where would we all be :rotfl:

I understand s**t happens. But imagine if the US entered the war on say, Dec the 15th. The British date was set.. if it was mere data entry, you could run with that. Better than grabbing the air for a new figure... anyway, New Zealands obscurity is actually an advantage. Many people here enjoy being 'under the radar' so to speak. I shouldn't really complain :p

[Sailor Steve]

Oh, I agree with you. That should have been easy enough to double-check, or they should have said "We don't know for sure".

[Idaeus]

Lol when I went to a english speaking school in sweden they refused to order history books from the USA because in a "preview book" it had said that WW2 sarted in 1941! :D Thats not being bad at history, thats just being self centered! :P

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

The devs certainly didn't do their homework on SH4 or they rushed it out so fast they left bits and pieces out. I enjoy this sim as a concept but the reality of it is that it's one of the buggiest games I played in awhile. I was hoping this add-on/update would fix some glaring issues but it did not. I know there are some rabid fans who would gladly string me up on the nearest oak tree for saying so but I'm not one of them. As concerning historical content they left out the air attack on Cavite on 20 Dec. 1941 which to me had some significance.

[AkbarGulag]

Yea, I guess it comes down to perspective. I wonder if Chinese history books state wwII as starting in 1937 :hmm: Or, like the Russians, they just give it a whole other name.

Nothing a well placed e-mail can't discover. I will get back with this right after I go and collect my nephew.

[JScones]

Even South Africa and Canada have late start dates.
As they should.

Canada's PM Mackenzie King didn't formally declare war on Germany until 10 September 1939, after a special Parliamentary sitting approved his request to do so. Although listening to his 3 September 1939 speech here (http://archives.cbc.ca/on_this_day/09/10/) you'll hear, unsurprisingly, that Canada provided full support after Britain's declaration.

South Africa's new PM Jan Smuts declared war on Germany on 6 September 1939. This occured after his predecessor, JBM Hertzog, was disposed through party disagreement over his preference to remain neutral.

One could argue that Australia never declared war in her own right, but acted upon Britain's declaration. Menzies actual words were, broadcast a mere few hours after Britain's declaration: "It is my melancholy duty to inform you officially that, in consequences of a persistence by Germany in her invasion of Poland, Great Britain had declared war upon her and that, as a result, Australia is also at war". However, it's commonly viewed as Australia's declaration of war.

[AkbarGulag]

I was not aware Aussies declaration was not actually a declaration :hmm:

I understand Canada and South Africa did not declare war on Sep 3rd, but they were both before sep 11th. Sep 11th is the blanket date for all comonwealth countries (bar England) in SH4.

New Zealands contribution was significant, with every 12th person, even counting men woman and children, serving in the military.

Back to Autralia, when was it 'officialy' at war Scones, for educations sake?

[JScones]

I understand Canada and South Africa did not declare war on Sep 3rd, but they were both before sep 11th. Sep 11th is the blanket date for all comonwealth countries (bar England) in SH4.
Yes, my comments were mainly to avoid a misinterpretation by others that Canada and South Africa declared war on the same day as Britain (otherwise the next "whatever" mod will have 3 Sep 1939 dates for both, LOL!).

You are certainly right that either way SH4 is wrong (hmm, does that sound right?).

New Zealands contribution was significant, with every 7th person, even counting men woman and children, serving in the military.
Yes, I've been studying RNZAF involvement in the Pacific. It's very interesting. :up:

Back to Autralia, when was it 'officialy' at war Scones, for educations sake?
The minute Britain announced she was at war. Menzies simply made the announcement to the Australian people. We hadn't adopted the Statute of Westminster 1931 at that stage and thus the belief (and law) was that we followed Britain.

Interestingly, New Zealand hadn't adopted the statute either. NZ PM Savage stated "With gratitude for the past and confidence in the future we range ourselves without fear beside Britain. Where she goes, we go; where she stands, we stand. We are only a small and young nation, but we march with a union of hearts and souls to a common destiny", so I guess, NZ never technically declared war in her own right either. Curiously, what is NZ's view on this?

NB, I should point out for the benefit of others that both Canada and South Africa adopted the statute in 1931, hence why they declared war independantly of Britain.

[AkbarGulag]

Sure, I should have stated with more clarity on the South African and Canadian dates :yep:

Here's the interesting part about our 'declaration'. It is viewed wholly here as an official position and completely legal. In fact, we even timed the declaration to be in unison with England. Joseph Savage (Who btw, has possibly one of the most impressive burial tombs anywhere and is somewhat revered as one of our greatest if not THE greatest leaders) was obviously in clear and direct contact with the British Government. To the point he knew what was happening and already pledged the support of the country. If this is the reality or not as far as being 'official' is concerned, my only really solid grounds was through the History teachers. Who teach openly here that it was an official declaration.

What you will find more interesting, is not that we were so keen as a country to support Britian, but how we viewed this AFTER the war. The damage to our relationship with Britian was more sgnificant than some people would realise. Moslty stemming from the fact that even when Japan had become the major threat, our men were never released to defend 'our home'. This had massive repercussions that are only being fully realised today. Australia on the other hand, was much quicker to percieve the changing world position and alignments. Although she was also bled heavily for the european theatre.

Here's a small and little known fact about our boys serving in Africa/Greece/Italy. Despite the reliabilty of our fighting men and the efforts of Freyburg to ensure we were not needleslly wasted, Britian never saw us as truly formidable fighting men. This all changed when enigma intercepts were read, with the germans designating our men 'elite'. This caused a shift in thinking back at British HQ, with the American's pushing for our inclusion in the first wave of the D'day landings. As they were more convinced than the British as to our abilities. Fortunately (?) the fiasco at Monte Casino removed any chance this would become a reality. Although that said, we suffered over 4,000 casualties at Monte Casino. Those german paratroopers were tough nuts to crack. There was some satisfaction I must admit, in it being the Poles that finaly took the Monestary. They must have felt great in achieving that goal.

EDIT: Per capita involvment. I ammended my post to say every 12th. Reason being the figures seem to be dodgy. Some sources say only 110,000 served. But from things I had read earlier, our total rotation was 200,00 serving. I think the samller figure of 110,00 was for 'at one time'. With 200,000 being total. One would give you every 7th person, the other would be every 12th.

[Torplexed]

I was at Monte Cassino in Italy in 2000. Quite the Commonwealth cemetery there. The hill makes a dramatic backdrop. The great mistake at Monte Cassino was trying to bomb the abbey at the top flat. Not only did it destroy a architectural treasure, it made it easily for the Germans to defend. As at Stalingrad, rubble makes for a better defensive position than a standing recognizable building.

[AkbarGulag]

I was at Monte Cassino in Italy in 2000. Quite the Commonwealth cemetery there. The hill makes a dramatic backdrop. The great mistake at Monte Cassino was trying to bomb the abbey at the top flat. Not only did it destroy a architectural treasure, it made it easily for the Germans to defend. As at Stalingrad, rubble makes for a better defensive position than a standing recognizable building.

The Indian troops are unsung heroes there also :yep:

The controversy over what happened after taking the monestery was more important to the common soldier than the bombing of it. I remember the bitterness my Grandfather expressed about that guy... Clark someone. Made the boys feel like they broke their backs for nothing.

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

We had no choice joining the war. We were a British Colony and had sent troops as far back as WW1. In fact my island home was a base for the British and American naval and air forces. My mum used to tell us a US Serviceman had taken a liking to her and as rationing was a way of life would smuggle chocolates out of base. But my Grandfather was British and didn't approve much of it.