Modern subsims

[eaze]

Hey guys, been playing SH4 for a while now and ended up finding these forums, now I'm wondering about something; are there any good sub sims or SH4 mods based around modern submarines? Anything from the cold war and upwards is what I'm primarily interested in. The newer the better I guess, I'm a tad bit of a sucker for eye candy too, so a SH4 mod would be perfect ;)

[Dowly]

AFAIK, Dangerous Waters is the newest modern era subsim.

http://www.sonalystscombatsims.com/dangerous_waters/index.html
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=181

[eaze]

Alright, thanks... I didn't care much for DW to be honest, but I guess this is too much of a niche market to expect a lot to choose from.

[Blacklight]

Go for Dangerous Waters and put in the LWAMI mod. You won't be dissapointed ! :rock:

DW has a learning curve, but we're here to help you. :D

[CCIP]

What's not to like about DW? Doesn't have the flash and flavour of SH3/4, but honestly - as a simulation, it's superior to the WWII war-horses by a long shot. Lots more tactical depth (pun intended :p).

It'd take SH4's engine 10 years to get where DW is in terms of modeling detail. That's how long it took DW to get that way. An SH4 + modern sub would not be a simulation at best, arcade at worst. Take a look at the sensor modeling in DW and you'll understand what I mean.

[AJ!]

Or better yet you could hang on for the SH4 cold war mod. If you have a look at the thread you can see some of the pics and they look fantastic :up:

All the flash and simple controls of SH4 with modern subs is a win win situation in my books.

[GlobalExplorer]

I side with CCIP on this one. It's amazing what they did but modern sub with the SHIV engine will never be really satisfying.

DW was interesting but I would rather like to see something like Red Storm Rising 2, i.e. something with a 1st rate story.

[Blacklight]

I agree.. for modern sub simulations, it just doesn't get better than Dangerous Waters. Even with the Cold War Mod, SHIV can't compete with the sensor modeling even though it has flashier graphics.

[CCIP]

I should say, I'm knocking the mod idea for SHIV! It should go forward - I just wish they'd focused on the later 40's instead of nukes - SHIV can probably do that with high realism. Ah well, still fun to be had there, possibly excellent in the gameplay department - just maybe not simulation in the hard-and-fast sense of the word.


I also agree that DW and its kin, at least after the original 688(I), have been lacking a little in the athmosphere department. Lots of little touches that drew a crowd to SHIII/IV are amiss, but that doesn't mean it's an inferior sim. It's really something like the difference between a historical novel and a technical manual. SH's are the historical novels, DW is a technical manual. It may be a little dry, but you're certainly going to have a far, far better idea of how submarine warfare works through that.

We do need a new generation of modern subsims, though I don't think the focus should be on graphics. Maybe I spent a little too much time in 688(I) lately (I'm playing the sonalysts campaigns in order), but DW's graphics actually look good to me. And this is where the revival of Microprose that some of us have pegged hopes on can come in - and indeed try to bring us something rich like another Red Storm Rising. Hopefully without falling behind on DW's technical depth.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Or better yet you could hang on for the SH4 cold war mod. If you have a look at the thread you can see some of the pics and they look fantastic :up:

All the flash and simple controls of SH4 with modern subs is a win win situation in my books.

IMO, putting nuke subs in the SH4 engine will just be for looks. The SHIV engine just isn't capable of modelling that kind of warfare.

PD

[AJ!]

You could be absolutely right. It may be impossible to add things like missiles to the submarines in the SH4 engine. But one thing ive learnt is to never doubt the modders :up:

[Edwin]

Yeah, I'd also love to see a modern subsim with SH4 like graphics, although the graphics really aren't that important to me. Too bad it's such a small market, my only hope right now is some company in Russia doing it since Russian devs seem to be developing some nice niche sims (eg. the Tank sims coming out). Aside from that, I could really go for an early cold war-gone-hot (40s, 50s) SH4 mod.


What's not to like about DW?
Many, many things. Here are just a few right off the top of my head:

-no dynamic campaign. No real freedom to hunt around for targets, reload weapons, etc.
-My crew is full of idiots. For example, they aren't even smart enough to lower my periscope when I increase speed, so it breaks :damn:
-overall total lack of atmosphere. No real sense of being part of a larger conflict.
-The ban on any sort of playable sub mods. No DWX for you!!!
-Horribly simplified countermeasures/decoy system. Modern subs have a lot more than "active decoy" and "passive decoy." This extends to surface vessels, too. There's also no apparent modeling of the various types of anechoic tiles and the resultant changes in active sonar detection ranges for those
-Periscopes, snorkels, etc are somehow completely undetectable
-Extremely limited torpedo wire-guidance controls and the wires never break :-?
-Linear sound profiles for ships/subs. WTF?
-Really weird stuff like audible active sonar returns from subs that are dozens of kms away
-I've heard that the Virginia's torpedo launch is quieter than flushing your toilet yet when I launch torps in DW, everyone can hear the launch hundreds of kilometers away; seems like swim-out/water-ram were never invented in the DW universe
-I've hit destroyers/cruisers to over 90% damage yet they're still sailing around, pinging me and launching choppers as if they haven't got a scratch. And somehow they can survive multiple torpedo hits, despite the fact that an MK48 or equivalent would obliterate most modern vessels in one hit (we've all seen the videos)

I could go on... but overall I have to say that I find DW to be a very poor representation of 21st century submarine warfare.

Take a look at the sensor modeling in DW and you'll understand what I mean.
It only takes one look at the first page of the Dangerous Waters forum to realize that there is A LOT wrong with DW's sensor modeling. And I am in no way saying that SH4 is better.

[CCIP]

I don't know. I think you may be expecting a little much from it. If you consider the amount of things it got right, they definitely outweigh the negatives. Games are games; and we go into it far enough - honestly, there's just as many things wrong with pretty much any other sim on the market! SH4 is possibly the worst offender of the recent releases (until the modders rescued it, that is).

It is unfortunately the nature of sims to be too complicated to get everything right. Though again, I'm not specifically defending DW - all fair criticisms!

[Galanti]

I don't know. I think you may be expecting a little much from it. If you consider the amount of things it got right, they definitely outweigh the negatives. Games are games; and we go into it far enough - honestly, there's just as many things wrong with pretty much any other sim on the market! SH4 is possibly the worst offender of the recent releases (until the modders rescued it, that is).

It is unfortunately the nature of sims to be too complicated to get everything right. Though again, I'm not specifically defending DW - all fair criticisms!

Bah, I never thought I'd say this, but there's too much simulation in DW and not enough game. I suppose I'm spoiled by the atmosphere and immersion in SH3/4, but yeah, the lack of a dynamic campaign, manageable crew and nice plankton kill DW for me.

The other problem is the ban on any sort of modding that might expand the scope of DW and add some longevity. LWAMI is a nice effort, but for years it seems the focus has been on tweaking sensor and weapon performance.

Frankly, I slightly prefer Sub Command and the vastly larger ship- and paneset it provides, particularly with SCX/SCU (Whiskeys, Romeos, Juliets and Foxtrots!). And the larger number of user campaigns and missions.

Though both games have huge dithering problems with NVidia cards and thus look far more dated than they actually are.

[nikimcbee]

Or better yet you could hang on for the SH4 cold war mod. If you have a look at the thread you can see some of the pics and they look fantastic :up:

All the flash and simple controls of SH4 with modern subs is a win win situation in my books.

IMO, putting nuke subs in the SH4 engine will just be for looks. The SHIV engine just isn't capable of modelling that kind of warfare.

PD

Plus, you waste all of that eyecandy, because you spend most of your time looking at the map plots or sonar screens.

[CaptHawkeye]

Most people's complaints with DW seem to be close to my own. Namely that it ends up being a pretty boring game because 90% of it stare at a sonar screen for hours. Then fire a weapon with an obscenely high likelyhood of one-hit-kill thus removing the fun from even ENGAGING targets because the whole thing is over in about 1 minute. :) Turns out modern warfare is ultra high lethality. You're either hiding or firing absurdly powerful uber weapons that kills things instantly. "Beep beep beep you're dead." :) Bah.

I have the same problem with modern flight sims too. LOMAC is a good game, but it's utterly pointless to me to play as any of the fighters because it's just a radar screen simulator. :)

[nikimcbee]

Bah, I need to get off my duff and finish my chinese campaign that I designed. I still have my design notes around the house someplace.

I just wish they spent more time in the storyline or designing several different large campaigns.

[Blacklight]

Most people's complaints with DW seem to be close to my own. Namely that it ends up being a pretty boring game because 90% of it stare at a sonar screen for hours. Then fire a weapon with an obscenely high likelyhood of one-hit-kill thus removing the fun from even ENGAGING targets because the whole thing is over in about 1 minute. :) Turns out modern warfare is ultra high lethality. You're either hiding or firing absurdly powerful uber weapons that kills things instantly. "Beep beep beep you're dead." :) Bah.


You obviously need more practice at torpedo evasion ! :D

These are the features I LOVE about Dangerous Waters. It's like a chess game. Hide and seek with uber weapons... waiting for your opponent to make that one fatal mistake while trying not to make one yourself. And no.. it's not usually over in one minute for me. I've had games go back and forth with detections and counter detections/fireings/more counterdetections etc.. for hours. It depends on who you're playing against. I don't find it boring at all. Looking at all those screens trying to find and classify your targets before they find and classify you really ratchets up the tension for me and is as nerve wracking for me as sitting in my Uboat waiting for those depth charges to drop when I know they're coming. Then there's the scared to death tension of trying to evade that incomming torpedo !!! It takes skill and timeing to avoid one and sometimes you just can't, but hearing that incomming pinging really pushes you almost to panic as it gets closer and you're doing the best you can to evade.
I find nothing boring about Dangerous Waters. For me, it's exciting and full of tension.
:up:

Bah, I need to get off my duff and finish my chinese campaign that I designed. I still have my design notes around the house someplace.


I'd probably design more for it if I could resist the temptation to play it instead of work on new stuff. My Attention Deficite Disorder always wins out.
"Hmmm.. I should get to work on the campaign I'm designing... OH !! LOOK !!! A NEW SCENARIO I HAVN'T TRIED !!" *Goes toodleing off in his submarine into a dangerous ocean instead of designing a scenario*

[goldorak]

Most people's complaints with DW seem to be close to my own. Namely that it ends up being a pretty boring game because 90% of it stare at a sonar screen for hours. Then fire a weapon with an obscenely high likelyhood of one-hit-kill thus removing the fun from even ENGAGING targets because the whole thing is over in about 1 minute. :) Turns out modern warfare is ultra high lethality. You're either hiding or firing absurdly powerful uber weapons that kills things instantly. "Beep beep beep you're dead." :) Bah.

I have the same problem with modern flight sims too. LOMAC is a good game, but it's utterly pointless to me to play as any of the fighters because it's just a radar screen simulator. :)

Oh man what you say is ridiculous. :rotfl:
Have you even tried playing multiplayer-multistation games with 10-12 players ?
Do have the slightest idea of how fascinating a cooperative mission can be ? :|\\ No I don't think so.
I play regularly and no Silent Hunter series even with the eye candy can even come close to the knife fighting you will experience in DW.
99% of potential players hate DW because of graphics thats the blatant truth, and it shows just how superficial the simulation market has become. :down:
And finally as far as mods are concerned, you should do a little bit of research since SCX/SCU equivalents exist also for DW.