Hey UbiSoft! How about a SecuROM-less executable?

[DeepIron]

Normally this kind of thing doesn't get under my skin too much, that is "copy protection" build into software. But for some reason, I can't let this one go...After RockinRobbins brought up the SecROM issue in this thread:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=132167&highlight=sony (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=132167&highlight=sony)
we were told:

The add-on uses one part of SecuRom.
SecuRom has one component for online activation.
The add-on makes use of this component and only for the download version (which seems to be the only version of the add-on that is being sold at the moment).
When activating, SecuRom accesses a server to check if the activation is correct.
After the activation, the SecuRom module will not access any server, ever.
SecuRom has one component for disk checking when starting the game. The add-on doesn't use this component.Launching the sh4 executable (at least in the download $9.95 version) creates a Windows process that detects the presence of other running software like Process Explorer (anyway, read the thread above for more info).

All I want is UbiSoft to make good on what they've said. Produce an SH4 executable that only validates the installation and make it available to those of us who purchased the download version.

If by "disk checking" they mean "process checking" then I want to know why those of us who purchased the download version have to put up with it.

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Thank God I didn't download online. I'm waiting for the whole enchilada package in stores (if ever they do decide to do that).:yep:

[danlisa]

What is the actual problem with it anyway? It's not like it's StarForce and you Optical Drives are dying.

Spell it out:

Has it broken your PC?
Do other games not work now?
Are your Fridge magnets demagnitised?:doh:

Look, let me lay this out.

Unless you play SH4 Multiplayer SecuRom is never used/activated. So, unless you want to keep MP functionality, remove SecuRom from your system because with the advent of the 1.3 patch, the game no longer needs it, because YOU no longer need the disk to play.

I've already posted details about removing it elsewhere. FFS, if you still want to run Process Explorer at the same time, I even have an official fix for that.

This is just more hysteria over protection software when in 99.9% of cases, people don't even know it's running.

[Rockin Robbins]

What is the actual problem with it anyway? It's not like it's StarForce and you Optical Drives are dying.

Spell it out:

Has it broken your PC?
Do other games not work now?
Are your Fridge magnets demagnitised?:doh:

Look, let me lay this out.

Unless you play SH4 Multiplayer SecuRom is never used/activated. STOP! This and the above quoted SecuRom has one component for disk checking when starting the game. The add-on doesn't use this component. simply are not true. SecuROM indeed does scan your running processes for a list of undesirable software that contains a host of software that legitimate users may run for honorable and legal purposes. When someone takes control of your property without your consent that is called conversion (if deemed a tort) or theft (if deemed a crime). In no event do the refs call "no foul" when that happens.

I suppose if someone broke into your house and lived in it for a week while you were gone on vacation, so long as they broke nothing and took nothing of yours you would not be offended if the policeman said, "Were your fridge magnets demagnitized? It's not like he burned your house down." SecuROM snuck onto my property without my knowledge or consent, and although the paper tiger is easily tamed, it is not a welcome guest.

Suppose when we bought SH4 there was a disclaimer telling us that along with SH4 another program would be installed for the purpose of protecting Ubi's investment. It would "prevent illegal copying and scan your running processes for <complete! list of "evil" programs including harmless Microsoft utilities> each time SH4 starts. It will take up <amount> mb of space on your hard drive. It will not be uninstallable and will create many large files with illegal filenames so you will not be able to delete them from your machine. Running processes from SecuROM may hamper the performance of your machine and prevent you from running software you may already legally own. No warranties express or implied are represented and all claims for compensatory and punitive damages will be laughed at."

Hell, that's reasonable! Check the accept box!:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

No one would voluntarily enter that agreement, but that is the situation in which we find ourselves. If you have a good and desirable product you need not hide. You need not install it without consent. The means of use show that the companies involved know that they are doing wrong. They condemn themselves.

I'm the owner of my machine. I have the right to be fully informed regarding all the software that is installed on it. Failure to completely inform should be a crime. Jail time for executives of slimey corporations peddling the snake oil should be doled out liberally. They are as bad, and sometimes much worse, than the lousy pirates. If they can sell the "anti-piracy" add-on to the end user, who buys it fully informed as to the consequences, THEN you could justify its existence.

Final absurdity: From the advent of patch 1.3, all through 1.4 to the release of SH4UBM, SH4 did not need this "protection." Now, suddenly the situation requires attack dogs. What has changed? I believe the change was due to a nice sales weasel from Sony showing up at Ubi's offices with some scary stories and some snake oil to sell. After the time period that the game needed no such protection, any arguments that SH4 now needs SecuROM again deserve only laughter and sneers.

Now you've done it. I'm going to have to sink at least two more ships to feel good again...

[TDK1044]

Personal opinion....Starforce was useless and intrusive. SecuRom is just useless. At least it's a move in the right direction. :D

[DeepIron]

This is just more hysteria over protection software when in 99.9% of cases, people don't even know it's running.
No it's not hysteria. If you're ok with it, fine. If your ok with the 99.9% of the people not knowing it's running, fine. I'm in the .1% and I find it unacceptable. I find even it more unacceptable that because I downloaded the add-on, that I have to put up with this cr*p while those who purchase the CD do not.

Look, let me lay this out.

Unless you play SH4 Multiplayer SecuRom is never used/activated. Wrong. I don't play MP and when I start the program, a SecuROM process is started regardless.

So, unless you want to keep MP functionality, remove SecuRom from your system because with the advent of the 1.3 patch, the game no longer needs it, because YOU no longer need the disk to play. I never had any SecuROM cr*p ON my system until I purchased the add-on.

I've already posted details about removing it elsewhere. FFS, if you still want to run Process Explorer at the same time, I even have an official fix for that.
It's not about whether or not I can "do a workaround".

It's about someone telling me one thing, and then finding out "it's not that way". There's an "professional integrity" issue here for me, ok? Evidently, from your previous comment, you don't seem to mind if 99.9% of users don't know they've been "compromised" which is the term I use. You can call it what you will.

BTW, your 'fridge magnets comment and condescending attitude sucks.

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Good to know RR. In fact SecureROM will also take up resources with the extra program running in the background. SecureROM to me is an intruder- scanning your system without my permission. Isn't that a form of privacy violation? Does any info taken from your system and collected elsewhere while you're online?

Or btw Danlisa my fridge don't have a door.

[DeepIron]

SecureROM to me is an intruder- scanning your system without my permission. That is the most succinct and "to the point" view I've read yet! :up:

I'm the owner of my machine. I have the right to be fully informed regarding all the software that is installed on it.
Absolutely! Sure, I buy software and it was my choice to purchase UbiSofts' product. But I expect "full disclosure" on what I'm installing and to predicate my purchase on that information. As far as I knew, I was buying a U-Boat add-on with some bug fixes and graphics enhancements.

IF I HAD KNOWN ABOUT THE SECUROM CODE, I PROBABLY WOULD NOT HAVE BOUGHT THE DOWNLOADABLE VERSION!

[Rockin Robbins]

Personal opinion....Starforce was useless and intrusive. SecuRom is just useless. At least it's a move in the right direction. :D:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl ::rotfl: Surely this is the great quote of the month! Thanks TDK!

@danlisa your fridge magnets comment falls under the category of allowable sarcasm and was winner of the great quote of the month before it was decimated by TDK.

[danlisa]

IF I HAD KNOWN ABOUT THE SECUROM CODE, I PROBABLY WOULD NOT HAVE BOUGHT THE DOWNLOADABLE VERSION!
You bought Silent Hunter 4: Wolves of the Pacific, didn't you? That had SecuRom on it. Where's the difference?

I never had any SecuROM cr*p ON my system until I purchased the add-on
You had SecuRom on your system the moment you installed the full game, before you even looked at the U-Boat Addon.

These threads by their nature are flawed, they will never effect any change, the only thing that's likely to happen it that a new form of protection will come along and people will still find objections to it.

Regardless of what inflection you draw from my posts, you're ranting about something that's been discussed before in 2 other threads and that you can't do anything about unless, like my suggestion, you remove the whole issue from your PC.

I'll agree that SecuRom is useless, here's why:

1) Within 24hrs of the v1.0 being released, it was cracked, then so was v1.2. Some protection that.
2) It's no longer needed by the game.

So you have to ask yourself, are you going to devote energy to an arguement which will have no positive outcome (need I remind you, we went through this with StarForce and Ubi switced to SecuRom:rotfl: ) or are you actually going to do something about removing SecuRom from your system?

[Major Johnson]

Ok, so I have a question. Seeing how I am the owner of a legal copy of SH4, and if I wanted to make a backup for protection sake, like in case my original gets damaged, would this Securom prohibit me from making a backup of something I legally purchased?? Back in the day, when the compac disk first came out, they were referred to as "practically" indestructable. This we all know, came to be proven false. I like to have a backup of my software.

[dean_acheson]

Personal opinion....Starforce was useless and intrusive. SecuRom is just useless. At least it's a move in the right direction. :D

I haven't played SH3 in years, Vista won't even let you load anything related to starforce.

My com. goes kinda nutty.

[DeepIron]

You had SecuRom on your system the moment you installed the full game, before you even looked at the U-Boat Addon. I wish that were true. SecuROM was not installed from either the DVD or 1.4 patch. I run a process scanner (Process Explorer) and use dll dependancy tools constantly. I also track changes to files on my HDs and SecuROM never showed up. It was not until 1.5 that this became an issue, and that's one reason it bugs me so much.

I used to make a living as a programmer and Systems Admin. I pretty well know my way around the MS OS... ;)

[flag4]

phewww !!

this is a hot potato -

and i really dont know or understand it all - it is interesting reading though

so could i just ask this...

i have sh4 and i am getting the add-on tomorrow and want a clean install on my 'windows' system, have not installed it all before....am i likely to run into any of the problems you talk of....

many thanks :ping:

[danlisa]

Partly correct.;)

Here's the DVD v1.0 specs:
Title: Silent Hunter 4 Wolves of the Pacific
Version: v1.0
Developer: Ubisoft Romania
Publisher: Ubisoft
Language: English
MediaType: DVD
Protection: Securom 7.31.0011

Whereas the 1.4 patch did not have SecuRom (infact even 1.3 was SR free).

Still, my solution is not a 'workaround', it's a legit way to remove a piece of software that is redundant on your system.

FYI, I too know my way around an OS, which is how I know the process required to remove SecuRom. Wanna Dance?:p

[Digital_Trucker]

Personal opinion....Starforce was useless and intrusive. SecuRom is just useless. At least it's a move in the right direction. :D

I like the way you think, sir:up:

The copy protection issue has been with us since I can remember. It basically is as useless now as it was in the BBS days. Where there is a will to crack it, it will be cracked. The only ones who are inconvenienced by copy protection are the people who legitimately purchase the software.

I won't start with the whole Sony rant because, frankly, my balance is too bad to be climbing up on a soap box.

Taking an "oh you can remove it later" attitude is not the sensible approach. Voicing concern over the invasion of our computers by the likes of Sony's (oops, I said that four letter word) viruses and rootkits is the only way to effect any changes. It may be a bit of "tilting at windmills" but so many "revolutionary" ideas started as just that.

If we say we are POed about this crap and nothing happens, then so be it, but if we never complain about the crap to begin with, then we deserve it.

<climbs down from soap box to the tune of the Who's "We're Not Gonna Take It">

[Rockin Robbins]

Ok, so I have a question. Seeing how I am the owner of a legal copy of SH4, and if I wanted to make a backup for protection sake, like in case my original gets damaged, would this Securom prohibit me from making a backup of something I legally purchased?? Back in the day, when the compac disk first came out, they were referred to as "practically" indestructable. This we all know, came to be proven false. I like to have a backup of my software. No foul there. The downloaded installation file is easily and without restrictions able to be burned to a CD. You could conceivably save it to Filefront too, if you just wanted off-site backup. Finally, Direct2Drive lets you redownload previously purchased software that you have bought from them.

So that part is fine.

Edit: oops I thought you were talking about the add-on. The original CD does have copy protection and a normal copy will not work at all. There are ways to make a copy, which is allowed under law, but I understand the tools themselves to produce these allowed copies cannot be specifically discussed here. As a website owner you can't afford the consequences of someone stealing software based on instructions they received on your website. We don't encourage or condone piracy here. Piracy is why we've got our panties in a wad as it is.:rotfl:

[DeepIron]

FYI, I too know my way around an OS, which is how I know the process required to remove SecuRom. Wanna Dance?:p
Sure.. let's rhumba... ;)

Ok, just to verify something... I completely stripped all SH related files from my system, cleaned the registry, etc. and re-installed Sh4 1.3 from the DVD.

There are no SecuROM files or processes installed or running on my PC...

Installed the 1.4 patch. No SecuROM...
Installed the 1.5 downloadable add-on. NOW I've got SecuROM.:down:

So, if SecuROM should have been installed at 1.3 and was not (at least in my case), then there is something fishy about either SecuROM or my OS... either and/or both would not be beyond suspicion...

[EDIT] A quick disassembly of the original 1.3 sh4.exe file shows a .securom code section. Hmm, wonder why it didn't execute before?

[danlisa]

and re-installed Sh4 1.3 from the DVD.

Um, you won't have SecuRom if you installed directly to v1.3, cos it was dropped with that patch. However, the DVD v1.0 did have SR on it, which is what I said in my post.

These versions have SecuRom:
v1.0
v1.1
v1.2
v1.5

These do not:
v1.3
v1.4

Now, that said, I entirely agree with you. Why have SR reinstated in the v1.5 patch?

While I take acception to it's inclusion, I can understand the reasons why, but I have taken it upon myself to remove it, and why not?:D

[Rockin Robbins]

FYI, I too know my way around an OS, which is how I know the process required to remove SecuRom. Wanna Dance?:p
Sure.. let's rhumba... ;)

Ok, just to verify something... I completely stripped all SH related files from my system, cleaned the registry, etc. and re-installed Sh4 1.3 from the DVD.STOP!!!!!! Danlisa is assuming you install from an original SH4 1.0 DVD. They included SecuROM. Round awarded to DeepIron. Sorry danlisa, it was close.

Now in addition to our original ammunition, DeepIron reveals that UBI sold DVDs without protection. That really strengthens our position. What changed? The nice sales weasel with the scary stories, that's what!

I'm getting off the thread. The SecuROM situation is important to protest once in awhile, but there is a point of propriety. We're there.

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

I wanna take Ubi to court!:hmm::yep::rotfl:

[danlisa]

STOP!!!!!! Danlisa is assuming you install from an original SH4 1.0 DVD. They included SecuROM. Round awarded to DeepIron. Sorry danlisa, it was close.

Balls!:rotfl: Why wouldn't one assume a fresh installation was from v1.0? It should have been stated in DeepIrons arguement.

Oh and FYI, anyone who did install from v1.0 and then patch up will still have SecuRom dormant on their system. Why have we not heard from them? Answer, because it doesn't cause them any problems.

Round to me or (at the very least) a Draw.:D

Damn, my feet hurt. I should have worn comfortable shoes for this dance.

[Dowly]

I only know of one CP that actually works. Theatre of War's. You get a license number when you buy it or if you dont have an internet, you have to call them and get it. AFAIK, still remains un-cracked and I'd like to see other games use this method too. Bin the SF & SR crap, does more to hurt than help.

[DeepIron]

These versions have SecuRom:
v1.0
v1.1
v1.2
v1.5

These do not:
v1.3
v1.4

Now, that said, I entirely agree with you. Why have SR reinstated in the v1.5 patch?
Man, this is weird. Right off hand, I'd have to say that perhaps Ubi has some versioning control problems... So, let me read this correctly, v1.0 - v1.3 inclusive were DVD issued. v.1.4 was a downloadable patch and v1.5 seems to be in both media...

So, I got a v1.3 DVD with an sh4 executable that contains SecuROM code that shouldn't be there... and doesn't work anyway... hmmm....

[danlisa]

So, let me read this correctly, v1.0 - v1.3 inclusive were DVD issued. v.1.4 was a downloadable patch and v1.5 seems to be in both media...

Not quite.

V1.0 was DVD as was v1.3 (also downloadable), the rest (excluding v1.5, which is both) were downloadable.

It makes sense that v1.3 would be re-issued on DVD without SecuRom as it was the first patch that removed the requirement for the DVD.

So, I got a v1.3 DVD with an sh4 executable that contains SecuROM code that isn't activated...

As my copy is v1.0 I couldn't comment on whether v1.3 even contains SecuRom.

[AVGWarhawk]

The secuROM does absolutely nothing other than let you download the game when you purchase it. I have it on my computer. It has sat dormant since last year. It became active when I downloaded the add-on. It went back to sleep when done. No ill affects on my computer. Would it have been nice to know secuROM was being loaded? Sure. It was not told to me and I will get over it. Let it go and play the game:up:

[DeepIron]

As my copy is v1.0 I couldn't comment on whether v1.3 even contains SecuRom.
Fair enough, and you can trust me on this one. The v1.3 sh4.exe file has SecuROM code in it... I've disassembled enough of it to find the VERSION section:

Structure for 1
Signature: 0xFEEF04BD
StrucVersion: 0x00010000
FileVersionMS: 0x00010003
FileVersionLS: 0x00000000
ProductVersionMS: 0x00010003
ProductVersionLS: 0x00000000
FileFlagsMask: 0x00000017
FileFlags: 0x00000000
FileOS: 0x00000004
FileType: 0x00000001
FileSubtype: 0x00000000
FileDateMS: 0x00000000
FileDateLS: 0x00000000

VS_VERSION_INFO VERSIONINFO
FILEVERSION 1,3,0,0
PRODUCTVERSION 1,3,0,0
FILEFLAGSMASK 0x17L
FILEFLAGS 0x0L
FILEOS 0x4L
FILETYPE 0x1L
FILESUBTYPE 0x0L

[flag4]

wow it's gettn' hotter

while y'all hack it out

how does this affect the novice like me who's about to insatll SH4 + u boat missions
from afresh..... or am i missing the point, in that, there isnt one - just install, click 'yes' to everything, patch up to 1.5 and off i go ?

[AVGWarhawk]

SecruROM is out there to get the Developers their compensation for the thousands of man hours put into this game. Read below. How do you think the modders feel? Their hard work now on someone elses computer. It is being distributed and looks like for a fee. So really fellas , what is the big issue here? Other games have this as well.



http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=802814#post802814

[tater]

If you installed but didn't run SH 1.5, could someone with the DVD send you thei exe file, and you'd be golden?

tater

[DeepIron]

DISCLAIMER:

This thread is my own complaint against UbiSoft and the way in which SecuROM code imbedded in the v1.5 Sh4 executable file behaves on my computer. While there are others who have also voiced some discontentment, I do not have the right to speak for them though they have voiced similar opinions and concerns.

My main complaint is that the SecuROM code does not act in the way it was described, as a "validation" process that checks to make sure the PC has a legitimate copy of SH4 installed. It launches a process that checks for certain other software processes to be running as well.

My other complaint is that the downloadable version has this issue, while I've been told the CD or DVD media release does not. In all fairness, I cannot confirm or deny this point as I don't have the "hard" media release.

As for others who may have read this thread and have some trepidation regarding the installation of the v1.5 downloadable add-on, you'll have to make up your own opinion. If you don't use some of the process tracking or dll dependancy software that SecuROM detects, and you don't mind having your computer processes scanned on the startup of SH4, then you'll probably never even know it's there.

So really fellas , what is the big issue here? I don't like anyone having the ability to scan processes or anything else for that matter on my computer without my knowledge. I'm not arguing against the copy-protection per se, I'm arguing against the manner in which it was implemented. How would you feel if everytime you started up your PC, Windows scanned your programs and wouldn't allow you to run one for fear of some form of "compromise potential"?

I use process scanners to insure that my PC stays free of malware and other nasties. It runs all the time EXCEPT for now, when I want to run SH4...

If you installed but didn't run SH 1.5, could someone with the DVD send you thei exe file, and you'd be golden? Possibly tater... OTOH, it would also be questionable in a legal sense too I think...

[AVGWarhawk]

Quote:
So really fellas , what is the big issue here?
I don't like anyone having the ability to scan processes or anything else for that matter on my computer without my knowledge.

Either does anyone else but this is the nature of computers, being on the internet and downloading programs. Currently, you seem to be in the minority with not liking the ability to scan processes without your knowledge. Rockin Robbin is number two who has issues with it. Personally, I do not care myself. If it is not a virus, I do not care. This program does not start a nuclear reaction on your hard drive, it does not sell you house without your knowledge, it does not screw up your tax returns. So far, I think it shuts down Window Process according to Rocking Robbin. OK, fine by me. Do I need this process to play SH4? I don't think so. So currently it is scanning Fashion Barbie and Sponge Bob Underwater Adventures. Like I said, I see a install date of almost a year ago. It has done nothing but sit. Then the add on was done. It became active to see it was a legitimate download. Now it sits doing nothing. The disc should not have this program on it? I'm guess no.....because you paid for it a a local merchant. Does it come to your drive if you purchase from the internet? Yes, so the hackers who created this mess of stealing games do not get the game for free. If it bothers you, I understand there is a way to remove it. Might want to check your other games that use it also. They may not start when you are done removing SecuROM....so I'm told. I agree with your assessment that we should be told it is being loaded.

[AVGWarhawk]

If you installed but didn't run SH 1.5, could someone with the DVD send you thei exe file, and you'd be golden?

tater

Ah, looking like hacking talk to me.....this seems to be the reason for SecuROM...am I wrong here?

[DeepIron]

I agree with your assessment that we should be told it is being loaded. That, as they say, is the crux of the argument... and it's about principal too IMO.

However, upon further reflection, there is reality, and then there is principal and I'm assuming at this juncture that reality will overcome principal to its detriment...

[tater]

If you installed but didn't run SH 1.5, could someone with the DVD send you thei exe file, and you'd be golden?

tater
Ah, looking like hacking talk to me.....this seems to be the reason for SecuROM...am I wrong here?

How would it be hacking? The 1.5 add-on is far more than the SH4 exe file.

Having the exe without the rest would not work. This is assuming that the DVD version doesn't have the hacked (be securom) exe file.

[AVGWarhawk]

I agree with your assessment that we should be told it is being loaded. That, as they say, is the crux of the argument... and it's about principal too IMO.

However, upon further reflection, there is reality, and then there is principal and I'm assuming at this juncture that reality will overcome principal to its detriment...

Unfortunately true, reality sometimes overcomes principal. I think you nailed it on the head here. You would have to ask yourself, "if I had seen the message that SecuROM or any other program that scans for legit downloads was about to be loaded, would I have cancelled the download"? I would not have cancelled because of lesson learned in the past concerning a different protection program used by UBI, I suspect that UBI would not repeat itself. From what I understand, protection programs are loaded onto your computer by other games developed by other companies. I can not say that I ever receive a message during loading off a DVD that a program for protection is being loading and do I want to continue. It seems to be the status quo concerning PC games. Therefore, we can not finger UBI as the sole provider of what some call "malware". It does not seem malicious to me in any form. It does not slow my computer(infact the game has never played better). It did not eat my homework(thats the dogs job). All you can do is express your unfavorable reaction to receiving a program like this without your knowledge. In Rockin Robbins post concerning this issue someone provided a list of games that had protectin programs on it. From what I remember, none of these games stated a program for protection is being loaded. I guess they are assuming you know this as you have a special code to enter for the download to begin or the game to load off a disc. So, express your dissatifaction for this loading without your knowledge. Not much else you can do if you want to play the game. We move on and enjoy the game.

[AVGWarhawk]

If you installed but didn't run SH 1.5, could someone with the DVD send you thei exe file, and you'd be golden?

tater
Ah, looking like hacking talk to me.....this seems to be the reason for SecuROM...am I wrong here?

How would it be hacking? The 1.5 add-on is far more than the SH4 exe file.

Having the exe without the rest would not work. This is assuming that the DVD version doesn't have the hacked (be securom) exe file.

I'm guessing it does not because you purchased the disc from a local vendor. Thereore, the game content was paid for. No need for protection. This is only a guess. Then again, other games from other companies load up protection devices even if the disc is purchased legit. SecuROM as far as I can tell does nothing. At least on my computer.