Re-introducing the Iron Cross?

[Skybird]

In Germany it is considered to re-introduce a military medal of honour again: the Iron Cross. After the military excesses we had, the bundeswehr lived without a dedicated honour medal for courage and action beyond what duty demanded. There was only a medal since the 80s that generally was meant as a reward for serving and improving the interests of the country and the army, which is more a reward that focuses on service time and does not make a difference between different ways to serve and "gaining honour" - that's why it is so often given to desktop workers, or to soldiers who were involved in helping out during the Oder-flood some years ago, which was dramatic in size. but courage in the face of a shooting enemy? Risking your life and commit action beyond the call of duty while under fire? A reward for example for those soldiers who some years ago conducted to the great surprise of the NATO allies an airborne rescue operation under fire on the Balkans? No medal dedicated to such things.

I do not overrate a medal. People doing their career just in order to get it, I would not trust. It is only a piece of tin, with some textile attached to it. but there is a symbolic value in it, that currently is totally missing Germany: that a person's dedication to serve the interests of his nation and his army is recognised, and thanked for. I think that is missing. And while the Iron Cross may have to bear a historical burden from the Nazi era, it nevertheless existed since longer before even WW1, and is the current symbol of German armed forces, too: painted on each airplane, tank and many ships and vessels. It has a tradition that includes the Nazi era, yes - but it is not exclusively made of that part of history.

Or as the commentator in this German editorial - http://www.welt.de/meinung/article1764839/Unsere_Helden_haben_das_Eiserne_Kreuz_verdient.htm l -
said: "Dass wir dem militärischen Heldentum misstrauen, ehrt uns. Dass militärische Helden nicht geehrt werden, ehrt uns nicht. - That we mistrust military heroism, honours us. That military heroes do not get honoured, honours us not." germany has hidden behind the Nazi past for long, and evaded many unwelcomed obligations by that. But we should stop arguing that because our ancestors did evil, we shall never become a party in a war again. Instead we should pay better attention and see it as our moral obligation to make sure that we never become the party of injustice again, but join that side that stands for what is just. that society symbolically acknowledges and honours the special deeds of those who serve beyond the call of duty, is not only a question of fairness. It is also an expression of that one means it serious with that obligation.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

I hope it does come back. But you're bound to get the odd wacko who spouts "BUT TEH NAZIS USED IT!!!11one"

You're cleared to punch them in the face, Skybird. K_Ps orders :yep:

[kakemann]

This thread will soon be entertaining - I feel it :lol:

[Rotary Crewman]

Not only entertaining, but also most likely closed.

Time to get myself a snack and watch it gooooo!

[AkbarGulag]

Considering the more frequent overseas deployments of German troops, its hardly surprising that there will now be a renewed need for the recognition of valour.

[Rhodes]

In my opinion, I think it should came back, it's an old german symbol, and it's painted on airplanes, tanks and many ships and vessels as Skybird said.
Any idea as new the medal will be? The article says anything about it? Possibly the german eagle in the center?

[d@rk51d3]

Glad to see it return.

[August]

Nothing wrong with the decoration at all. It'd be interesting to see if an American were to win it whether the DoD would allow him to wear it on his uniform.

[Dowly]

Good to see it back. I've always liked the looks of it. ;) I hope there wont be that much of a trouble from the public against it.

Nothing wrong with the decoration at all. It'd be interesting to see if an American were to win it whether the DoD would allow him to wear it on his uniform.
I do hope that they wouldnt be that childish to not allow it. ;)

This is again one of the symbols ppl are hesitant to allow, thanks to Adolf and his gang. Doesnt the symbol go waaaay back? I remember Teutonic Order having similar symbol?

[August]

I do hope that they wouldnt be that childish to not allow it. ;)

Why not? Other foreign decorations have been allowed in the past. The French Fourragere and Croix de Guerre, the Vietnam Gallantry Cross, heck even I am authorized to wear the German marksmanship medal (Gaudy thing. makes me look like a doorman). Various foreign troops have been awarded US medals and qualification badges in the past as well.

[Dowly]

I do hope that they wouldnt be that childish to not allow it. ;)
Why not? Other foreign decorations have been allowed in the past. The French Fourragere and Croix de Guerre, the Vietnam Gallantry Cross, heck even I am authorized to wear the German marksmanship medal (Gaudy thing. makes me look like a doorman). Various foreign troops have been awarded US medals and qualification badges in the past as well.


Yeh, that's what I said. I hope they allow it and I cant see any reason why it wouldnt be allowed.

[bradclark1]

Nothing wrong with it. It's a German military award for valor and courage. Nothing nazi about it at all.
As far as Americans earning and wearing it. A request just has to be sent up the line I really can't think of a reason to deny it.

You popcorn eaters are probably going to be disappointed.:roll:

[Skybird]

In my opinion, I think it should came back, it's an old german symbol, and it's painted on airplanes, tanks and many ships and vessels as Skybird said.
Any idea as new the medal will be? The article says anything about it? Possibly the german eagle in the center?
No, no new thing - it is discussed to bring back the old iron cross design itself. It was designed by Friedrich Schinkel, and was first installed in 1813 - during the wars against Napoleon.


Wir brauchen eine Tapferkeitsmedaille. Muss es gerade das Eiserne Kreuz sein? Ja, gerade das Eiserne Kreuz sollte es sein. Gestiftet 1813 in den Befreiungskriegen gegen den Imperialismus Napoleons, entworfen von Preußens größtem Künstler Friedrich Schinkel, hat es eine schlichte Würde und - trotz alledem und alledem - eine beeindruckende Tradition. Man muss nur den Invalidenfriedhof in Berlin-Mitte besuchen, um eine Ahnung davon zu bekommen.

Ja, Preußen hat, wie andere europäische Mächte auch, ungerechte Eroberungskriege geführt.
Ja, dem Meldegänger Adolf Hitler wurden im Ersten Weltkrieg das Eiserne Kreuz I und II auch verliehen. Übrigens auf Vorschlag seines jüdischen Bataillonskommandanten. Was sagt das schon?

Mehr sagt schon folgende Geschichte aus: Als in der „Kristallnacht“ sich der Stuttgarter Mob johlend der Praxis eines jüdischen Arztes näherte, stellte er sich schweigend vor sein Haus mit dem Eisernen Kreuz II an der Brust. Die völkischen Helden verstummten und schlichen davon. Auch an diese Tapferkeit vor dem Feind erinnert das Eiserne Kreuz.

Es gibt keine bequemen Traditionen, in Deutschland schon gar nicht.Gerade deshalb sind Traditionen gut, gerade in Deutschland.

"We need a medal for valour. Must it especially be the Iron Cross? Yes, especially the Iron Cross it should be. Installed in 1813 in the wars for freedom against the imperialism of Napoleon, designed by Prussia'S great artist Friedirch Schinkel, it has a simple dignity and a very impressive tradition. You just have to visit the Invalidenfriedhof (a famous cemetery in Berlin) to get an impression of that.

Yes, like other european n ations, Prussia waged unjust wars of conquest. Yes, Hitler received the Iron Cross himself when having been a dispatch rider in WW1. BTW, by recommendation of his Jewish batallion commander. But what does that mean anymore?

The following story has more to say: when during the Reichskristallnacht in Stuttgart the mob turned against the practice of a Jewish doctor, he just stepped out with his Iron Cross on his chest and stood silent. The arian heroes fell silent, and then sneaked away. Of this kind of valour in the face of the enemy the iron cross also reminds us today.

there are no easy, comfortable traditions, even less so in Germany. And that's why traditions are good. Especially in Germany."

[Tchocky]

No problem with it. Always thought it was a beautiful emblem.

[AVGWarhawk]

They may want to do something about this first. Seems the military needs to get fit before they start anything about a Iron Cross. I read this a few days ago.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/05/wfat105.xml

[Oberon]

I welcome it, I've always loved the design and anyone who says as KP so wonderfully put, that it was used during the period of Hitler, needs to be reminded that it was around long before Adolf and has nowt to do with him. :up:

[August]

Yeh, that's what I said.


Sorry. :oops: Too many negatives got me confused! :doh:

[Thunder]

I was going through my dads stuff after him passing recently , and found a few medals from his father (my grandfather), including the iron cross, which apparently he got on the eastern front.It really is a beautiful medal ,i hope they re-introduce it.

[August]

I was going through my dads stuff after him passing recently , and found a few medals from his father (my grandfather), including the iron cross, which apparently he got on the eastern front.It really is a beautiful medal ,i hope they re-introduce it.

I have an IC 1st class that was awarded to my Great Grandfather in the 1st world war.

[Skybird]

The defense minister is in favour of it, as are some federal politicians and the vast majority of the army as well. But we have the SPD. The Greens. The alliance of former SED and DKP, now called Die Linke.

Supporting this idea, I nevertheless fear that the left will rate a debate about a new fairground here, and more immigration there, as more important than this "militaristic stuff". It also has the suspicious odour of elitism on it, so... go figure. We have medals for service time. For the Oder-flooding. For social compatability of service, which now is considered to be of honour. While all that is nice and well, it is not the same to risk your life for a purpose going beyond your own life.

But who needs a medal for valour for serving beyond duty while under fire, or courage in the face of the enemy? What enemy, btw? :doh: We probably make ourselves enemies by getting back this medal, you see. :88) we better get a medal for extraordinary peaceful behavior.

[Tchocky]

I was going through my dads stuff after him passing recently , and found a few medals from his father (my grandfather), including the iron cross, which apparently he got on the eastern front.It really is a beautiful medal ,i hope they re-introduce it.
I have an IC 1st class that was awarded to my Great Grandfather in the 1st world war. I've got one of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_For_the_Victory_Over_Germany_in_the_Great_Pa triotic_War_1941-1945)in my pocket.
Not through the family, though :)

[Rhodes]

[quote=Rhodes]In my opinion, I think it should came back, it's an old german symbol, and it's painted on airplanes, tanks and many ships and vessels as Skybird said.
Any idea as new the medal will be? The article says anything about it? Possibly the german eagle in the center?
No, no new thing - it is discussed to bring back the old iron cross design itself. It was designed by Friedrich Schinkel, and was first installed in 1813 - during the wars against Napoleon.

:up: Thanks!

[Skybird]

Der Spiegel now picked up the story. Noit much new, though, only another hint that many politicians may not be comfortable with the idea.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,539802,00.html

[Friedmann]

It should definitely be brought back. It has no link to Nazism, pre-dates it and as others have said the iron cross already adorns tanks, aircraft etc.

Plus, it just looks damn cool.

[antikristuseke]

How could anyone say that the Iron cross has been mared by history, just because it was awarded during nazi rule does not link it to the nazi regime in any way. It was an award for gallantry under enemy fire from its start and if brought back it would still hold the same distinction.

[August]

How could anyone say that the Iron cross has been mared by history, just because it was awarded during nazi rule does not link it to the nazi regime in any way. It was an award for gallantry under enemy fire from its start and if brought back it would still hold the same distinction.

The thing is i've never heard of anyone having a problem with bringing it back besides the Germans themselves...

[ToySoldier]

Hi out there!

An idea long discussed here in good old germany .... and like most "military" things has in the publik a - let say - bad tast!
It´s not only the Eiserne Kreuz it´s also soldier songs, uniforms (military not police or such) patriotism and and and ...
In germany there is the discussion if we should take the ´risk´ to send combat troops to the hot spot Afghanistan ... and now you ask for the Eiserne Kreuz?
Here you don´t read anything about this employment of the Bundeswehr, except it´s negativ.
And I know what I´m talking about, because I spend 134 days last year there!
You receives for it a document and a employment medal, and you´re only aloud to carry it on the dress uniform!
As long as we are "guilty" for the 12 years between 33-45 it will not give such a sighn for courage and valor!!

In diesem Sinne
Gott mit Uns
Frank B. aus K.

[August]

As long as we are "guilty" for the 12 years between 33-45...

Frankly Frank (sorry couldn't resist:cool:) as long as the Germans allow others to successfully lay that guilt trip on them that tactic will continue to be used.

[AntEater]

Principally, I'm all in favor of the EK, problem is that our politicians won't have the courage to do it.
Problem is, Germany has absolutely no award for military bravery. There is the civilian federal merit cross, which is given out so inflationary that basically all you have to do to get the lowest form is being in public office for 10 years without getting sued for corruption, while for the highest form you actually only have to be a federal president or a foreign dictator to get it , with awards were made to Empress Soraya of Persia and brazilian dictator Getulio Vargas.
The military has a badge for sports, branch badges and a "performance badge" which is basically something of an expanded sports badge. There is also the Honour medal of the Bundeswehr, which is given for such heroics as 15 years of service, archivements in sports, public office or church (!). But generally we always took a grim pride in have "blank chests" where american E-5s with similar service records and zero combat experience looked like christmas trees.

They will most likely create a quasi-combat "mission medal" award while painstakingly avoid anything remotely visually similar to the EK and also avoiding words like Combat, heroism and valor in the criteria.
I'm not sure if the bundeswehr is an army of lions, but it is surely an army led by sheep.
Maybe it is better to save that prestigious award for a better republic that can honour its soldiers and also for a "real" war.

The one reason that really speaks against the EK is simple:
The EK was not an "everyday award", it was only awarded in wars where Germany herself was at stake. 1813, 1871, 1914, 1939.
Imperial germany fought a lot of small colonial wars between 1871 and 1914, but no german soldier was awarded an iron cross during that time period.
These combats can be compared in size and scope with today's international "peace" missions, even though a lot less thought was given to both collateral damage and own casualties.
There were a lot of awards given, and the highest honor of prussia, the Pour le Merite, was awarded some times for action in China, but not the EK.
Also in WW1 and in WW2 the award of the EK tended to be quite inflationary, at least among officers. There was a WW1 joke that the only way a staff officer could avoid getting an EK was to shoot himself and even then he stood a good chance of getting it posthumously.
The only thing that made the EK prestigious was that the criteria of getting one were still a lot more objective than those of the state awards. For example, during the battle of Verdun the Count of Hesse lived in a villa some way off the battlefield as a general without command and spent his days awarding the hessian medal of bravery to every soldier he came across! This resulted in his cooks, his guard, a lot of railway workers, clerks and other second line troops (and apparently also some french POWs) being decorated as true hessian heroes :D
Actually it would be possible to reinstate the pour le Merite, as the civilian version is still being awarded on rare occasions. There can be only 12 recipents of that order at a time and one has to die in order for a new award to be made by the german president.

[Skybird]

As long as we are "guilty" for the 12 years between 33-45...

Frankly Frank (sorry couldn't resist:cool:) as long as the Germans allow others to successfully lay that guilt trip on them that tactic will continue to be used.
Believe me, nobody does that better than we ourselves. Germans are the only real experts in minimizing all german history to the years 33-45. Nobody does it better.

[August]

As long as we are "guilty" for the 12 years between 33-45...
Frankly Frank (sorry couldn't resist:cool:) as long as the Germans allow others to successfully lay that guilt trip on them that tactic will continue to be used. Believe me, nobody does that better than we ourselves. Germans are the only real experts in minimizing all german history to the years 33-45. Nobody does it better.

Yeah my cousins are like that sometimes.

I just know that according to the "rules of the playground" self deprecation often just provides ammunition to ones tormentors, or as my father used to put it: "No sense bashing yourself, thats what we have enemies for." That's one reason I'd like to see Germany reinstitute the IC for it's soldiers who have performed heroically.

[Rockstar]

But who needs a medal for valour for serving beyond duty while under fire, or courage in the face of the enemy? What enemy, btw? :doh: We probably make ourselves enemies by getting back this medal, you see. :88) we better get a medal for extraordinary peaceful behavior.

You have enemies and being a pacifist err I mean peaceful nation only invites those who have different ideals and are willing to wage war to promote it to come against you. Peace is a wonderful thing but I always view germans being too afraid of the past to beat the snot out of the neighborhood bully.

You seem to be a reasonable person Skybird hard for you to be my enemy even if you decided to where an Iron Cross :)

[trekchu]

I for my part believe that we do need a medal for valor. I am also in favour of bringing the napoleonic-eara design or a slightly altered one. ( meaning that the new one would be modelled after the one we currently paint on our Panzers )


However I think that it won't go through for a variety of reasons, the main ones beeing several parties, at least "Die Linke" and the Greens beeing against it. The SPD... dunno. Other reasons are that the historical burden the cross has might be seen as to heavy by some. ( not me thats for sure, as much as I despise the Nazis, and the communists for that matter. )

[Skybird]

But who needs a medal for valour for serving beyond duty while under fire, or courage in the face of the enemy? What enemy, btw? :doh: We probably make ourselves enemies by getting back this medal, you see. :88) we better get a medal for extraordinary peaceful behavior.

You have enemies and being a pacifist err I mean peaceful nation only invites those who have different ideals and are willing to wage war to promote it to come against you. Peace is a wonderful thing but I always view germans being too afraid of the past to beat the snot out of the neighborhood bully.

You seem to be a reasonable person Skybird hard for you to be my enemy even if you decided to where an Iron Cross :)
I tried to be ironic, if you haven't noticed that - or maybe I failed miserably with my attempt. ;)

[Onkel Neal]

Iron Cross? Why not? Anything other than the swastika, sounds ok with me.

[Letum]

They stopped issuing the Iron Cross??!?
Why?


Bring it back!

[Oberon]

They stopped issuing the Iron Cross??!?
Why?


Bring it back!

As has been said, Germany hates Germany. The whole world has moved on (bar certain areas of the Middle East of course) and yet they're still going through what happened sixty years back...but...if it were us, we'd probably still be going through it too. It's good to see some resemblance of the old proud Germany coming back though, pre-WW1. :D

[GlobalExplorer]

My answer to the question is simple: NO

And before hell freezes over there is no way we will see the Iron Cross in the Bundeswehr .. you will see it. Every couple of years these crazy stories are appearing in the news, about someone who said something and after one or two months every one has forgotten it.

We do award crosses (Bundesverdienstkreuz), and I think the bundeswehr will get something similar in the future, but that is enough.

Btw I agree that Germans are paranoid about their history, but it is certainly not the question wether we should get the Iron Cross back.

[GlobalExplorer]

And on second thought I don't know why you guys believe we are just being p.c. or something, but Iron Cross, Wehrmacht, Pour Le Merit, most Germans are just sick of this ****. This has nothing to do with our (irrational) angst of being a nation, which I also sometimes not understand, but after all that has happened, what good would it be to get these things back?

[Skybird]

And on second thought I don't know why you guys believe we are just being p.c. or something, but Iron Cross, Wehrmacht, Pour Le Merit, most Germans are just sick of this ****. This has nothing to do with our (irrational) angst of being a nation, which I also sometimes not understand, but after all that has happened, what good would it be to get these things back?
Because we sent volunteers around the world, and some of them got killed, evben more wounded in body and soul - and we have no symbol of recognititon for that. By giving them the ehrenmedaille we just minimize their effort by saying it means the same to us like serving at a desktop doing paperwork ten years long. If I were a soldier and would have done something for which I would be willing to accept a medal of honour, and they come with this - I would reject it, feeling offended, sorry. A medal for year-long loyalty (that's what it effectively is, not more) and a medal for courage shown under fire: it just don't compare.

Different if we would stop to shuttle our troops around for a messy mission in Afghanistan, a hosptal-building mission in SE Asia or Africa, etc. If no more troops leave Germany for foreign missions - we would not need a medal for valour indeed as long as we do not get attacked. Where there is no fighting, there is no "in the face of enemy fire".

The Bundesverdienstkreuz is no military but a civilian medal, btw. Sports men get it if being successful. Parents adopting many children. Private people engaging in social caretaking projects and free work, etc. All that is fine, okay. but it is not the same like leading a group in combat, being outnumbered 1 to 2 and still not falling back in the face of bad odds, but maybe even attacking back and winning a fight, showing an exceptionel "solo" in performance maybe. German media have given examples of texts that explained why somebody was recommended to receive the Congress medal here, the Victoria Cross there. Do the Tommies and Yanks have no shame? They use words like "fighting" and "killing" and "enemy" and "duty" and "courage" and attach it to the meaning of reward! That is not what the German army is for. We build bridges and roads and schools, you know.

THW (Technisches Hilfswerk) under arms. :lol:

Nobody should mistaken me: I am not talking about getting easy to send German troops into war. i still want the troops out of Afghanistan, since I consider the way Washington allowed the situation to detoriate as an example for the maximum of possible stupidity, and now others should jump in and lie on the bed that Bush's visionary and very competent strategic leadership has made himself, so that failure could be blamed on others as well and Ameircan troops pulling out. but as long as we send troops there for whatever the reason, the single individual displaying something of extraordinary courage deserves to receive recognition and the thank of the society that send him there. If we think that is not worth to be recognised and not worth to be thanked for - then we better should not send anybody there, becasue then we obviously think the job is nothing worth to be recognised. And that cannot be acchieved by giving him a symbol that he could also win the easy way for sitting in a BW office for sufficient years. the ehrenmedaille is not really a medal for valour, in no way. It is little more than a "time of service ribbon."

When I was a youngster, I shot and won my Mom 20 peacock feathers with 25 shots at the fairground shooting stand. That is a quote of 80%, by a novice, and I was 12 years old. You could give me a medal for that as well! ;)

[GlobalExplorer]

I also want to give these men their recognition. But already the thought of someone walking down a german street, proudly wearing something that even resembles the Iron Cross is incredibly stupid.

I know this is hard to imagine for people from abroad, but for the Germans it should be clear what I mean.

[Skybird]

for me it is not that clear, and I also do not see why "it should be clear" to me as a German. Also, nobody mentioned that IC-owners promenade on the streets and wear their badge on their jacket. If you haven't noticed - we even do not have military parades in Germany (no objection to that from me). the going back to public vowing to the flag of recruits was a great controversy some years ago, if you remember.

In the end, such medals do not replace the obligation of the nation to train and equip soldiers as best as possible if it is intended to send them into harm'S way, and it cannot repalce the obligation to take the best possible care of them when they return. I do not blow up the importance of symbols of recognition of valour. But in the end, such a medal is not so much a private affair for the receover, but a public issue - that the society shows him that it cares, that it recognizes what the individual has done and risked, and that the society honours him because it stands behind the cause of the action, the mission, the war. seen that way we owe such a medal less to the indovidual soldier whi did something exceptionell, but we owe it to ourselves as a society. that is difficult to make clear in a self-hating society like the german one that does not miss any opportunity to reduce itself in cultural meaning and gretaness and does it's best to hate oitself, minimize itself, and reduce itself to the years 33-45.

Maybe we should focus less on the inflationary abuse of the IC by the Nazis, but on the time when it was intriduced: during the wars for freedom from French imperialism and Napoleon's megalomania. I know it is hard for Germans not to constantly focus exclusively on the Nazi time as if there has nothing else, and as if before other european nations did not act and behave as ruthless and nationalistic as the empirial Germany did. There was more - much more. And without German cultural and scientific and philosophical contributions, the world would not be what it is today.

If there should be a dedicated military medal for valour, there is no other option than it being the IC. Forming a new medal simply creates something that stands for nothing, has no tradition, and thus: no meaning. Like the Ehrenmedaille today, abotu which many jokes are running in the German armed forces - not many take it as something honest or serious. It also has no real tradition behind it. In the 80s and then again in the early 90s two "new" medals were created. To say they are being held in even not too high esteem would be a shameless exaggeration.

But I share your pessimism at least. Although these daays there is more support for a miliutary medal of valourn than ever before, it probably still is not sufficient enough to overcome german and left ressentiments. But if we reject to appreciate and pay respect for the risks opur troops do accepot when we order them around the globe - I wonder why we send them on such missions at all, if there is nothing in these mission worth to take risks for and worth to be respected.

Maybe there are questionable assignments indeed that should not be respected indeed. At least this question could be argued about, yes. But it does not chnage the fact that we send troops, and that sometimes individuals show extraordinary courage during such assignments.

Conclusions, anyone? ;)

[GlobalExplorer]

Pre-war Germany, with its prussian military tradition does not exist anymore. WWII was too traumatic. Everyone can try turning the wheel back but it will fail.

Not saying the Iron Cross offends me in any way, but it's a thing of the past, and we can pay respect to our soldiers in a lot of different ways.

Btw the GDR already made a cult about Prussian uniforms, orders, march music, etc and it was absolutely disgusting:

http://www1.ndr.de/media/nva8_v-content.jpg
http://www.dhm.de/lemo/objekte/video/JahreDesAufbausInOstUndWest_videoNationaleVolksarm ee/ani.jpg

[Tchocky]

Maybe we should focus less on the inflationary abuse of the IC by the Nazis, but on the time when it was intriduced: during the wars for freedom from French imperialism and Napoleon's megalomania. I know it is hard for Germans not to constantly focus exclusively on the Nazi time as if there has nothing else, and as if before other european nations did not act and behave as ruthless and nationalistic as the empirial Germany did. There was more - much more. And without German cultural and scientific and philosophical contributions, the world would not be what it is today. :up:

[Boris]

Btw the GDR already made a cult about Prussian uniforms, orders, march music, etc and it was absolutely disgusting:




I'm pretty sure every single military in the world has uniforms, oders and march music :yep:

I think you are seated too deeply in the German general dislike of militarism

[GlobalExplorer]

I think you are seated too deeply in the German general dislike of militarism

Look, I have spent most of my life studying and dreaming about war/military and I am totally fascinated by military strategy, so much that sometimes I believe my fate was to at least aspire to be a general or something.

Still, I can't see how it could be a bad thing to dislike militarism or how militarism can be good? (So yes, you are right in your assessment Boris)

[GlobalExplorer]

And I am sure you would be less indifferent to these images if you had lived in the GDR :yep:

[August]

Still, I can't see how it could be a bad thing to dislike militarism or how militarism can be good?

I'd say it all depends on how you define the word "militarism".

From Wiki:

Militarism is the "belief or desire of a government or people that a country should maintain a strong military capability and be prepared to use it aggressively to defend or promote national interests" [Source: Apple Dictionary, Version 1.0.2]. It has also been defined as "aggressiveness that involves the threat of using military force" Online die.net dictionary, as well as "Glorification of the ideals of a professional military class" and "Predominance of the armed forces in the administration or policy of the state" American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.

Four different definitions. Only a couple of those could be considered "bad".

[ToySoldier]

Good morning out there!

After reading the thread here I just surfed a bit throu the net ... and steped over the the spiegel-online forum (a newsjournal here in the good ol´germany) I nearly get sick!
And now I´m sorry that most of you pals here can´t read german, so that you could understand how we german think!
I´m reanecting 2 german military epochs (1813 - 1815; and 1907-1918) and you can´t imaging how people name you for this here in germany!
Also standing openly to be reserv of the Bundeswehr and went to a reserv-meeting in uniform throu the city to get there ... the harmlesses thing is to be looked at as beeing alien!
I think most of the foreign readers here have a differend view of german history than we germans ourself!
The problem is you can´t change puplik view as long as there are still schoolbooks out of the 70s ....

In diesem Sinne
Gott mit Uns
Frank B. aus K.

[Skybird]

I agree on the cult the GDr had formed around medals, military medals, civilian ones, etc - it was ridiculous. There were so many different ones. And the GDR showed how well militarism could be used to press society into a totalitarian form. However I fail to see how the inplementation of one (only one, right now there is zero! rien! null! nada!) dedicated military medal for valour could be compared to that. The GDR exactly did what I want not: introducing a piece of tin witghout tradition behind it, and thus: without any meaning. After all, giving a medal is a symbolic act by which society expresses to the soldiers that it is supporting and is standing behind the running operation, or better: the mere reason why a military is being maintained. It also is meant to say: "We take note of what YOU have done, and we thank you for that and appreciate the risk you accepted". As I said earlier, it cannot replace good equipement, training, and good care-taking after return. But the symbolic act itself is more important to sicety itself than to the single soldier (also said before). anbd here, it cannot be replaced by anything. there is nothing that could replace the function of this symbolic act. and for the society it means a constant reevaluation of the running operation, war, mission, and if the operation is found to be justified, the act has a carthatic effect for society, saying: we don'T do it easy-minded, we care for what is happening, we see this action as necessary by our values and cultural standards. It draws public attention to the issue. Right now, the population is getting lulled over Afghnaistan. It is being lied to, and allows to get lied to. Imagine that some BW members now gets the first Iron Cross for soemthing he/her has done in combat in Afghanistan, imagine the public debate it would trigger, very much for the same doubts GlobalExplorer has expressed. Puplic pressure would become very big that politicians start talking clear and straight, and their would be pressure to check and evaluate the motives by which the current mission is run. All this just from a controversy around the IC. such a function is desperately needed over here. Not that it is not needed in other nations as well...

GlobalExplorer in so far is right that in germany the military is not "admired". Many even object it. However, in the past 10, 15 years, the negative sentiments to wards the BW that I remember from my schooldays, have eased out a bit, it is not as bad as it once has been anymore. For me, military is a necessary evil. That's why I respect it and do not think bad of it, but do not want to see it on the streets, parading. Modesty is a virtue, here. Neither is it the only way for a man to prove himself, nor does it turn people into better, more noble beings, it also is not an option described as "acceptable a normal business". It is not one amongst other, but the ultimate, final, hopefully avoided tool of politics. But we cannot work around needing a military, and sometimes we better even should will to use it. Not as easy-minded as america is using it: what began justified in Afghnaistan, was let down incompetently in favour of the great stupidity in Iraq. These examples illustrate what German forces have the historic responsibility not to contribute to. the detoriation in Afghnaistan and the war in Iraq are prime examples of easymindedness. The problem right now is that the German military get abused for political opportunism. We send it to afghanistan, but politicians do not dare to call Afghanistan a "war." There is no war in the south, there is "unstability". There are no combat troops doing fighting, there are troops trying to contribute to improvement of the stability. If the Germans take over the rapid reaction force from the Norwegians - pretty much sure - it is not combat troops being send into a combat mission - what it is, by the Norwegian'S record - but it is any other blabla but no war and no combat troops - says the defense minister.

From the wikipedia definitions of "militarism", I must refuse any of these to be acceptable. You operate your military aggressively in case of war, I believe in taking the initiave and to act instead of reacting. but the definitions suggest to use military aggressively as a political tool and give it a special, powerful, influetnial status in the government. That is not only sometimes to be considered bad, but always.

[AntEater]

Strange thing about the Bundeswehr is that it seems to be scared of the public.

I think most people are wrong when saying that Germany is antimilitaristic. Action and war movies are as popular as in any other country and kids to play with toy guns and shooters and military themed games are very popular.
The famous "silent majority" is indifferent to the Bundeswehr, simply because the armed forces are not very present in the public.
Generally, the average guy has nothing against the armed forces and garrison towns staunchly support "their" troops. Its just that you can safely spend a year in Germany without seeing any soldier at all. The idea of a citizen army is simply bull****, if only one in ten people gets drafted and even that one can object. Of around two dozen guys I know at university, only three including myself served in the military as conscripts. By all means, avoiding conscription is so easy that you can consider the bundeswehr an all-volunteer army with a very inefficient recruiting method. On the other hand, this improves the far too short 9 month conscription period. No one today serves nine months, if you go, you either enlist for longer (up to 23 months, I did 14) or you become professional or you don't join up at all.
A small vocal elite in the media is staunchly against the armed forces, true.
Problem is, with that elite that the anti-bundeswehr bias is not limited to the left.
Basically, right wingers don't take the Bundeswehr serious because it is not like the Wehrmacht and left wingers hate the Bundeswehr because it is too much like the Wehrmacht
:D

The Problem with the Wehrmacht is twofold: First of course the 2nd word war. Today, the leftist side does not differ anymore between soldiers and nazi executioners. Maybe the difference was too accentuated in the postwar years but to throw the common front soldier together with a death camp guard is unfair.
Second problem is the effectiveness. Regardless of political direction, every german regards the Wehrmacht as the most efficient army of all times.
Every successor organisation will have a tough time against such competition and if it assumes a "mostly harmless" mantle as the Bundeswehr does, it will be ridiculed.
Germans simply admire efficiency, and the Bundeswehr only makes headlines with accidents and scandals and with overblown political correctness.
In my opinion, this whole philosophical crap is unecessary and the Bundeswehr would be far better off by just being an army like everyone else.

Just some examples:
- while old time songs like the Panzerlied are still sung, verses dealing with dying for your country have been removed.
- during open days, units sometimes stage weapons demonstrations where visitors can handle rifles, pistols and other firearms. Sofar the only time I handled a G-36. But when you step up, the soldiers have to ask "are you over 18?" to every visitor because it would be totally blasphemous to let a kid handle a firearm. Notions of Hitler youth and the likes. The fact that those same kids all have BB G-36s and play FPS all day hasn't arrived yet.#
- official Bundeswehr commercials and recruiting vids all painstakingly avoid "military" words and rather try to portrait service as just "a good job". Problem with that is that you can't fight a shooting war with people who want a well paid job. There were serveral disciplinary problems in Afghanistan with people who didn't seem to realize what they were getting into. A professional job in the armed forces is something for warriors. Someone who has problems with the thought of having to use weapons against other human beings shouldn't join up and certainly should not be encouraged to join. Especially troublesome are the "Mail order ranks" (Neckermann-Dienstgrade) where specialists start at a higher rank. Instant feldwebels are simply not taken serious by real NCOs.

But this is rather a top down problem. In the 1970s, when the Bundeswehr was at peak efficiency, antimilitarism and pacifisim were really strong and the Bundeswehr didn't give a damn. It took 20 years for pacifism to arrive at the top of the Bundeswehr while the popular movement is all but dead. But the Leutnants of 1970s are the generals of today and apparently they got a good scare back then.
Also, it is a generation problem. During my service I met some really good younger officers and those in service now are of a different breed.
It always seem to me that young (post 2000) officers are a great deal more "prussian" than the old west cold war officers. You could safely greet a Fregattenkapitän with "moin" at an active naval base while a Leutnant would throw a fit if you didn't properly salute him.
This has also a lot to do with the fact that a large percentage of today's officers are east German. First of all, east germans do not have as many complexes as west germans and second, they traditionally have a totally different image of how an army should be run than in the west, especially if their fathers were in the NVA.
I remember a lot of conversations like "this is a joke, the NVA was a real army" with 20 year old guys who were 9 when the wall fell.

[Skybird]

Basically, right wingers don't take the Bundeswehr serious because it is not like the Wehrmacht and left wingers hate the Bundeswehr because it is too much like the Wehrmacht
Nice summary!

Especially troublesome are the "Mail order ranks" (Neckermann-Dienstgrade) where specialists start at a higher rank. Instant feldwebels are simply not taken serious by real NCOs.

What the...? :huh: I did not even know that such things existed. Are they spared from basic training, or do they run it at already higher ranks?

I have a loose contact to two officers, who both have had time in Afghanistan. One of them said "We are running lower and lower on good seargents." I need to ask him next time if he meant it regarding quality, or quantity.

[AntEater]

When I served, this thing was limited to "Neckermann-Hauptgefreite", who were inevitably scorned by real Hauptgefreite like me.
Apparently right now they have instant Feldwebel, and apparently there's a single "instant major" (female) in the Luftwaffe.
But those Neckermanns are usually limited to technical specialities, not combat troops.
The Neckermann Major, for example, is a flight safety officer for the Flugbereitschaft, and formerly worked in the same position for Lufthansa, IMHO.
But since these people have the same rank from the day of enlistment it would be funny:
"Verdammt, Herr Major, wie sieht ihr Spind aus? Ist da ne Bombe eingeschlagen? Wenn das in fünf Minuten noch so aussieht platz mir der Kragen!"
:rotfl:

[GlobalExplorer]

As to Skybirds posts, I hope we are still discussing on the same topic. All my arguments were concerning the reintroduction of the Iron Cross, not against the Bundeswehr. If you want new military orders, that's fine and probably overdue.

Basically, right wingers don't take the Bundeswehr serious because it is not like the Wehrmacht and left wingers hate the Bundeswehr because it is too much like the Wehrmacht

I guess we can leave the german left wing out of our discussion - really not worth our time. But who would want the Bundeswehr to be more like the Wehrmacht?

The Problem with the Wehrmacht is twofold: First of course the 2nd word war. Today, the leftist side does not differ anymore between soldiers and nazi executioners.

I must side with you on this. To all uninitiated, see controversy the about the "Wehrmacht-Austellung" etc.
http://www.konservativ.de/wma/ow_dokum.htm

Really sad (http://www.konservativ.de/wma/ow_dokum.htm) how someoene will push the "Nazi" button and the whole nation will jump. My grandfather for example was in the Wehrmacht exactly because he was not a Nazi. Otherwise he could had taken a quiet post in his village, but he refused and preferred to get drafted.

In my opinion, this whole philosophical crap is unecessary and the Bundeswehr would be far better off by just being an army like everyone else.

Elaborate. Also take a closer look at our constitution and what this "Staatsbürger in Uniform" thing means.

First of all, east germans do not have as many complexes as west germans and second, they traditionally have a totally different image of how an army should be run than in the west, especially if their fathers were in the NVA.
I remember a lot of conversations like "this is a joke, the NVA was a real army" with 20 year old guys who were 9 when the wall fell.

I agree that the NVA (or it shouldn't it be NPA?) was much more like a real army than the Bundeswehr. Born in '73 my draft would have been due around '91- '93, but in the school holidays '88 and '89 I was already sent into camps where we got drilled by real NVA officers.

But please don't start to romanticize about the NVA or it's really getting stupid!

[AntEater]

The "Staatsbürger in Uniform" concept is simply not up to realities anymore, if it ever was.
Keep in mind, that in 1955 resistance against rearmament was not limited to leftist/socialist circles. Many conservatives resisted rearmament as well, like Martin Niemöller.
The citizen soldier army and "innere Führung" was some workaround to "sell" rearmament to the populace. Innere Führung was also a sexy name to continue prussian principles like Auftragstaktik (mission based tactics) without mentioning Prussia. "Alter Wein in neuen Schläuchen"
Basically, armed forces are a necessary evil because of the threat of communism.
Service was not to be the thing of a professional military caste and the military not a "continuation of politics by other means", but rather a conscious decision to defend freedom and democracy against dictatorship by means of deterrence.
Military decorations were not necessary because the only war that would happen would most likely end Germany, if not the world alltogether.
Under that rationale, the armed forces of germany should have been disbanded after reunification or at least after the last soviet soldier left Germany.
The reason for the existence of the Bundeswehr, as originally envisioned, had disappeared.
This did not happen, yet the political caste clings to this whole belief system.
As you mentioned the constitution, the same thing here. It was called "basic law" to underline the provisional nature of it pending reunification. But after that happened, nobody had the courage to start fresh and so they simply kept the name. But of course de facto the Grundgesetz IS a constitution and never was anything else.
That is what I mean with a "normal" army. An army goes where the politicians decide and if ordered, it fights a war. If someone has a problem with that, he's free not to have anything to do with that.
Simply put, the only way Germany could keep up the old way of thinking would be to drop out of NATO and adopt a Switzerland or Sweden like Neutrality. But if you're in NATO and want to be a big player in the world and even a seat in the security council, you can't be a moral high grounder.
And maybe I'm simply a bit more of a prussia fan than you are, even if I consider myself a leftist, at least regarding social and economic policies.
I can't romanticize about the NVA since I was born in the west, I can only relate what my GDR-born comrades in military service told me and what my east german relatives told me.
Also, it seems to me that many east germans are mercifully free of all those "sins of the past" guilt complexes we Wessis carry around with us.

[GlobalExplorer]

I agree that something has to happen about the role of the Bundeswehr. I can see our partners in NATO are getting impatient, and righteously so.

I would say right on but let the ghost of Prussia rest. Instead it's about time we start a new tradition with a professional army, new symbolics like e.g. a "Bundeswehrkreuz" and by putting an end to the equalization of army and militarism.

But we are really fools if we dont listen to the elders in this questions. I just told my father about this discussion (he was a HJ flak gunner in WWII) and he said: nuts. My late grandfather would probably have slapped me on the back of my head and said: "shut up. if you had been in Russia for one day you would not talk like that".

[AntEater]

Problem is, you can't just do that.
If Germany were a new nation like Israel, maybe, but we're not.
Even the soviet union readopted czarist traditions in WW2.
Also I don't see Prussia as something evil. Wilhelmian militarism was, but that is just an episode and most other nations on the planet were not different at the time.
Actually if there's anything worth remembering and using as an example in Germany after the middle ages, it is Prussia. The rest of Germany pretty much resembled present day Caucasus or Balkans.
Also, our own state hasn't grown out of nothing. The legal system and the system of administration are all prussian. The constitution is from 1949, but the legal framework of our republic is far older, with some laws dating back to the aftermath of the 1848 revolution (for example the GVG).
The Bundeswehr might have a lot of US influence, but the basic way of doing things is Prussian, like mission-based tactics, strong reliance on small unit leadership and emphasizing movement over firepower.
The federal republic of Germany hasn't been created out of nothing, not even the GDR was.

[GlobalExplorer]

Also, it seems to me that many east germans are mercifully free of all those "sins of the past" guilt complexes we Wessis carry around with us.

I really don't think so. We had the topic drilled into our heads from Kindergarten. It's just expressed differently, or not expressed at all. The GDR education tried to suppress individual political opinions, thats why the east german mind can readily swing to the extreme right or left. If you don't have an opinion you can be a fascist as well as a communist, depending on the circumstances. That was the principle in the Third Reich and in the GDR it was not that different.

[GlobalExplorer]

Also I don't see Prussia as something evil. Wilhelmian militarism was, but that is just an episode and most other nations on the planet were not different at the time.

I also don't think it's evil - I just don't think we need it back. I feel a Prussian by birth - my roots are in the West-Prussian area that lies now in Poland, and for sure the dry Prussian mentality is still alive here in Berlin / Brandenburg.

I mean what could we lose if we restore no more prussian traditions? Apart from nostalgic feelings, not much.

But what could we lose if we restore the tradition? Much more, as history has taught us.

[August]

Also I don't see Prussia as something evil. Wilhelmian militarism was, but that is just an episode and most other nations on the planet were not different at the time.
I also don't think it's evil - I just don't think we need it back. I feel a Prussian by birth - my roots are in the West-Prussian area that lies now in Poland, and for sure the dry Prussian mentality is still alive here in Berlin / Brandenburg.

I mean what could we lose if we restore no more prussian traditions? Apart from nostalgic feelings, not much.

But what could we lose if we restore the tradition? Much more, as history has taught us.

So you're basically making the "slippery slope" argument where if they bring back the IC its straight downhill to the 4th reich?

[STEED]

where if they bring back the IC its straight downhill to the 4th reich?

We already have the 4th Reich it's called the EU. :damn:

[GlobalExplorer]

So you're basically making the "slippery slope" argument where if they bring back the IC its straight downhill to the 4th reich?

No I don't, and why are you asking me that question?! But if I have to chose between the Kaiser and Germany as it is today, guess what I prefer!

Now you should better try to answer my question what the world will lose if we leave prussian tradition in its grave.

[GlobalExplorer]

We already have the 4th Reich it's called the EU. :damn:

go away .. :nope:

[STEED]

We already have the 4th Reich it's called the EU. :damn:

go away .. :nope:

You better bone up reading there documents or stick around and watch all unfold in 30 odd years time. ;)

[August]

So you're basically making the "slippery slope" argument where if they bring back the IC its straight downhill to the 4th reich?
No I don't, and why are you asking me that question?! But if I have to chose between the Kaiser and Germany as it is today, guess what I prefer!

Now you should better try to answer my question what the world will lose if we leave prussian tradition in its grave.

I was just trying to understand your objections to the IC and that is the argument you seem to be making.

[GlobalExplorer]

As skybird said, germans don't "admire" the military. In fact some right out hate it. Now in some ways this can be seen as irrational and neurotic. But please try to imagine what a large, prosperous, respected nation Germany could have been without the militarism. Today things look pretty bright again for Germany, but don't forget what several generations had to go through during the 20th century. So it's not just for irrational self-loathing that people put the blame on the Kaiser, the Wehrmacht and all that, it is an objective experience.

[AntEater]

As I allready said above, I think the problem with the military is something not connected to the normal german. The media and certain politicians have a problem with the military. The average german mostly is simply indifferent.
Maybe 20 years ago a majority was anti-military but now most people just don't care.
I suppose overall the popular opinion about the military is not much different to other european countries, those "ghost from the past" debates are mostly intellectual.

[Skybird]

So you're basically making the "slippery slope" argument where if they bring back the IC its straight downhill to the 4th reich?

No I don't, and why are you asking me that question?! But if I have to chose between the Kaiser and Germany as it is today, guess what I prefer!

Now you should better try to answer my question what the world will lose if we leave prussian tradition in its grave.
People always see the militarism of Prussia - and ntzhis alone. but I am a fan of some Prussian virtues. Precision. desiciple, self-disipline, self-modesty. Not complaing so much, but doing it. Politeness. These are also Prussian values. and I think they are in desperate need in public schools. Prussia often is seen as a negative stereotype, but in fact it is a complex matter, I learned when reading about it. To me it is a little bit like with a knife: a moron will use it to stab people from behind, a surgeon will use it to safe life. And all the figures of the present that I respect or maybe even admire a bit, have some more or less Prussian values in common in their personal way of living, and acting. Like Sparta for a long time was seen as too positive, Prussia is too often seen as too negative. Another fallout from the Nazi time.

[Skybird]

As skybird said, germans don't "admire" the military. In fact some right out hate it. Now in some ways this can be seen as irrational and neurotic. But please try to imagine what a large, prosperous, respected nation Germany could have been without the militarism. Today things look pretty bright again for Germany, but don't forget what several generations had to go through during the 20th century. So it's not just for irrational self-loathing that people put the blame on the Kaiser, the Wehrmacht and all that, it is an objective experience.
Hitler and gang certainly were one of a kind, but one should not forget that beyodn that part of history, Germany has not been any special case regarding nationalism, imperial cult, imperialism. The Brits did it. the French. and earlier, the Austrians, the Spanish., the italians, the Portuguese, the dutch. compare to some of these, the imperial Germany sought "it's place at the sun" in colonies too, but by far not that successful than for example the British. Of course that was not because of lacking desire for more, but because of limited ability or ressources or smaller chances. The message is: all european nations acted according to the goals of the imperialistic era, and the nationalism of nations in the 4-5 centuries before, last but not least Napoleon, and the British empire rising. Militarily, napoleons strategic genius and agility is to be admired, but politically he was a catastrophe for the continent.

The thread is off-topic now, but nobody should take offense. It is reasonable in tone, and most interesting, so: continue! :up: