Sony

[Rockin Robbins]

Those of you who had trouble with Sony's SecuROM telling you what legal, non-pirating, Microsoft programs you could run on your machines prior to patch 1.3: WARNING: SecuROM is back.
Other than helping SUBSIM with a tiny part of my purchase, I've just wasted my money. I resent not being warned before I spent the money. I would just have given the $10 to SUBSIM.

[Madox58]

Verified by a hex exam of the files.
But I haven't had any problems so far.
Sonic and WinISO work fine.
:hmm:

[Rockin Robbins]

especially Process Explorer, Sony does not allow you to run SH4 U-Boat Missions. Mark Russinovich, author of Microsoft's Sysinternals Utilities, was the man who discovered Sony's infamous virus-like rootkit, which disabled lawful CD and DVD functions on your computer when you played a Sony music CD on your computer. He cost Sony tens of millions of dollars. Now SecuROM checks running processes for Process Explorer, at least, refusing to run SH4 unless you remove the program and reboot.

Process Explorer is a harmless, Microsoft utility to give you a slightly more useful Task Manager and is about as pirate-useful as Disk Defrag. This is only a personal battle between Sony and Russinovich and we are put in the middle, being told what legal and lawful software a game will allow us to run on our machines.

I'll leave it to you to determine whether that is right.

[Major Johnson]

And your course of action is what, not install the add-on?? And miss all the improvements to the game?? Seems to me we're gonna get this securom whether it's by digital download or DVD. Although I've posted other concerns with the digital download, I played through the training missions, again, yesterday, and had thoroughly good time!!! Can't wait to start my campaign!

[danlisa]

And your course of action is what....
Remove it. I suspect RR will do/already has.

It is now surplus to requirements as the game no longer requires it (following NO-CD in patch 1.3 IIRC). So the question remains, why include it within the 1.5 download in the first place.:doh:

Besides, I don't think RR's problem is the fact that SecuROM is included/installed but rather that it serves no purpose, is particularly troublesome to other OS processes and is way too virulent (by design) to be accepted by genuine owners of any software,music or generally purchased content.

[Dowly]

And your course of action is what....
Remove it. I suspect RR will do/already has.

It is now surplus to requirements as the game no longer requires it (following NO-CD in patch 1.3 IIRC). So the question remains, why include it within the 1.5 download in the first place.:doh:

To keep the crackers busy? :88)

[danlisa]

To keep the crackers busy? :88)

I know, that you know, that I know that it doesn't make a bit of difference to the addon.:lol: Even if the addon installs SecuROM, there's nothing for the crackers to do as the protection's no longer required. So it's either lazyness or stupidity that it was left in the download.

[AkbarGulag]

is particularly troublesome to other OS processes and is way too virulent (by design) to be accepted by genuine owners of any software,music or generally purchased content.

;) :cry:

[Q3ark]

I have found a secuROM folder on my hard drive but it is empty, what gives??

[DeepIron]

To keep the crackers busy? :88)
I know, that you know, that I know that it doesn't make a bit of difference to the addon.:lol: Even if the addon installs SecuROM, there's nothing for the crackers to do as the protection's no longer required. So it's either lazyness or stupidity that it was left in the download.
I was curious as to why the sh4.exe from 1.4 was only 1.94G in size while the 1.5 sh4.exe is 6.64G. Among other things, yes, it looks like the SecurROM code was added back in... The sh4.exe adds 3 new code areas, ars, est and .securom, along with 2 new data areas, artem and celare. There is also a new paul.dll file in the root directory that appears to be associated with Securom.

I'm sure there were other changes to the sh4.exe in 1.5 to account for it's increase in size as well.

[Reece]

Is there a way to install the U-boat missions without getting SecuRom?:-? At the moment I've installed it but not launched it & my drive is clear so far, what happens if I launch SH4? Should I uninstall U-boat missions & stay with 1.4?:oops:
Not sure what I should do!:doh:

[DeepIron]

I never had any of the SecuROM junk on my box, and installing 1.5 over 1.4 has not created any processes or problems that I can detect.

[Major Johnson]

And your course of action is what....
Remove it. I suspect RR will do/already has.

Remove what?? Securom or the add-on?? Since RR said he wasted his money, I assume he was removing the Add-on.

I haven't had any cd issues that I know of. In fact, I didn't have any when I first installed the game, and patched to 1.1.

[Rockin Robbins]

We really need more information before we can decide whether it is worthwhile to run the add-on. Does SecuROM just rear its ugly head on install and then leave us alone? Maybe we can ignore it then.

Does it scan your running processes list every time you start SH4UBM and refuse to let you play you if you run a program written by Microsoft's Mark Russinovich? Then we have restraint of trade and I think we have a legitimate reason to decide to regress to 1.4.

And the final question: if we use danlisa's SecuROM uninstall procedure, do we lose our ability to play SH4UBM?

If #1 is true, #2 is false and #3 is also true, it's a close call. If all 3 are true then its time to escalate our concerns.

If only #1 is true we can just start our campaign, close this thread and start swapping war stories.

The pity of the whole thing is that SecuROM is just snake oil. I'll be the first one to say that Ubi has a right to protect their copyright, so long as it does not interfere with my lawful activity. But the crackers solved SercuROM before Sony secured its first sucker I mean customer. The only people affected are honest customers who bought their software. The crooks are gleefully producing copies by the thousands and illegal downloaders are using cracked versions at will, while we pay the price. Sony's "product" damages us as it damages Ubi, who paid Sony's customary rapacious price for a product that does nothing to promote sales, nothing to hinder piracy. Why would a smart game company fall for that pig in a poke?

[maerean_m]

Let's make things clear for everyone:
The add-on uses one part of SecuRom.
SecuRom has one component for online activation.
The add-on makes use of this component and only for the download version (which seems to be the only version of the add-on that is being sold at the moment).
When activating, SecuRom accesses a server to check if the activation is correct.
After the activation, the SecuRom module will not access any server, ever.
SecuRom has one component for disk checking when starting the game. The add-on doesn't use this component.
There is no crack protection in the add-on (like the big eyes and the 2D crewmen in the gold version).
SecuRom is not StarForce.
SecuRom is not evil and is only used to ensure that the download version is being used only by people who bought the game.
SecuRom stores some keys in the Windows registry, but doesn't contain a "rootkit" or any other modules that people associate with "conspiracy theories".
You can play SH4 without the need for the disk to be in the drive. Personally, I don't know any other company that does this. All my games either require the disk on start-up or use an online check (e.g. Steam).
You are perfectly safe.

[Rockin Robbins]

Edited: marean_m is mistaken. SecuROM continues working after installation, no matter what Sony told the developers. Every time SH4UBM is started SecuROM scans running processes for Process Explorer and probably the other Microsoft Sysinternals utilities by Mark Russinovich. If it finds any such processes running SH4UBM stops in its tracks and displays:
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/SecuROMSH4UBMmessage.jpg

Note what program is displaying in the "dialog" box: SecuROM. Click the link and SecuROM spills the beans:
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/SecuROMpissingmatch.jpg

My recommendation is that people not purchase the U-Boat Missions Add-on until Ubi can fix this abomination. If you are not affected, think about what you do as company encouraged by the success of its disdain for customers (Sony, not Ubi. I believe Ubi and the devs were told this wasn't going to happen. At least it would have to be proved to me that they knew better before I would throw any of the blame their way) will grows more and more intrusive, financed by the money you pay for its product. Sony sold it to you without your knowledge or consent. Sorry maerean_m, that is a definition of evil in my book.

It's time to say "The nonsense stops here!" I own my computer and I reserve the right to run whatever lawful software I wish to run for lawful and honorable purposes. Ubi has a right to protect its product and I believe that is all Ubi was trying to do. I believe Sony lied and in the process they destroyed Ubi's customer goodwill. I certainly will not be purchasing any more Ubi products until the Sony garbage is totally gone. Copy protection is entirely legitimate. This garbage is not.

[AVGWarhawk]

Then assuming it has no functions after installation we can all leave this thread and begin swapping war stories.:rock::rock::rock::rock::rock::rock::rock: :rock::rock::rock::rock:

Time to brush up on my German!!! how many liters in a kilometer?:rotfl:

All that for nothing RR. Get squared away, ship shape and head out on patrol

[jimbob]

Hello Mrs Securom.
j/k

:lol:


You can play SH4 without the need for the disk to be in the drive.
Personally, I don't know any other company that does this. All my games either require the disk on start-up or use an online check (e.g. Steam).


Check out X3 The Reunion (http://www.egosoft.com/news/current_en.php), they pulled the impossible longtime ago
and took away the "need of the cd" for playing in a patch.

It's a space sim allrite, but they got a nice community (http://forum.egosoft.com/viewforum.php?f=66) going
with a lot of mods to add.

Pretty much like Silent Hunter, but in space.

:rotfl:

[Seeadler]

You can play SH4 without the need for the disk to be in the drive.
Personally, I don't know any other company that does this.

- Egosoft -> X3
- Microsoft -> FSX, once activated no disk is required
- Sonalyst -> Dangerous Waters
- Lead Pursuit -> Falcon 4.0 AF

[stabiz]

A big :up: to Ubisoft for removing that requirement from SH4.

[jazman]

So, I switched directories to try the addon: I switch the big install directory, but I just renamed the one under "My Documents", not switching. The SH4 directory associated with the addon is "SH4_UBOAT".

So I try to start the game, and up pops a dialog box:

A required security module cannot be activated.
This program cannot be executed (5024).

Please have a look at http://www.securom.com/message.asp?m=module$c=5025 for futher, more detailed information.


And there's only an "Ok" button there.

In other words, the game won't create a new SH4 directory for me. It won't work. Now, how about the SecuROM directory under my Application Data folder?

I rename it SecuROMx, and I get the same error.

Guess what? Don't try this at home. I reset everything to run the add-on, and I still get the error.

EDIT: OK, this is all Operator Headspace Error. I started Process Explorer to test RR's thesis, and promptly forgot what the heck I was doing.

[jazman]

So, you can't run Process Explorer if you want SH4 working? I have verified this. Sheesh.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Let's make things clear for everyone:

The add-on uses one part of SecuRom.
SecuRom has one component for online activation.
The add-on makes use of this component and only for the download version (which seems to be the only version of the add-on that is being sold at the moment).
When activating, SecuRom accesses a server to check if the activation is correct.
After the activation, the SecuRom module will not access any server, ever.
SecuRom has one component for disk checking when starting the game. The add-on doesn't use this component.
There is no crack protection in the add-on (like the big eyes and the 2D crewmen in the gold version).
SecuRom is not StarForce.
SecuRom is not evil and is only used to ensure that the download version is being used only by people who bought the game.
SecuRom stores some keys in the Windows registry, but doesn't contain a "rootkit" or any other modules that people associate with "conspiracy theories".
You can play SH4 without the need for the disk to be in the drive. Personally, I don't know any other company that does this. All my games either require the disk on start-up or use an online check (e.g. Steam).
You are perfectly safe.
ALL of maerean_m's post sounds absolutely reasonable to me! :yep:

[Madox58]

I would have posted my findings
(and I'm not a computer neophyte by ANY means!)
but maerean m covered them all.

I run programs that would make most people shiver and
proclaim me a Pirate!!

But it all works fine!!

Put the SecuRom issue to rest!!!

And why are you running Process Explorer while playing anyway?
Process Explorer itself is a system hog.
There are much better programs.
;)

[jazman]

And why are you running Process Explorer while playing anyway?
Process Explorer itself is a system hog.
There are much better programs.


Examples?

[Madox58]

And why are you running Process Explorer while playing anyway?

Examples are easy to find if you know what your are doing.
Answer the question I posed first.

[MONOLITH]

Let's make things clear for everyone:

The add-on uses one part of SecuRom.
SecuRom has one component for online activation.
The add-on makes use of this component and only for the download version (which seems to be the only version of the add-on that is being sold at the moment).
When activating, SecuRom accesses a server to check if the activation is correct.
After the activation, the SecuRom module will not access any server, ever.
SecuRom has one component for disk checking when starting the game. The add-on doesn't use this component.
There is no crack protection in the add-on (like the big eyes and the 2D crewmen in the gold version).
SecuRom is not StarForce.
SecuRom is not evil and is only used to ensure that the download version is being used only by people who bought the game.
SecuRom stores some keys in the Windows registry, but doesn't contain a "rootkit" or any other modules that people associate with "conspiracy theories".
You can play SH4 without the need for the disk to be in the drive. Personally, I don't know any other company that does this. All my games either require the disk on start-up or use an online check (e.g. Steam).
You are perfectly safe.

This is all I need to hear. :up:


For the panic stricken, I'd imagine you could remove just the secureRom files after you've unlocked the add-on?

[Madox58]

There are no files to remove.
It is only away to insure you have your install.
No processes run afterwards.
It does not mess with installed programs
(I run IDA often and I'm sure the Dev's know what that is).
;)

It's a non-issue!!!
Let it die.

[MarkShot]

After installing the add-on.

Can you run PE and SH4 1.5 together or not?

I do run PE as a replacement for TM.

Thanks.

[MarkShot]

After installing the add-on.

Can you run PE and SH4 1.5 together or not?

I do run PE as a replacement for TM.

Thanks.

[jazman]

After installing the add-on.

Can you run PE and SH4 1.5 together or not?

I do run PE as a replacement for TM.



No, and if you're running version 10 of PE, even after you stop it the kernel driver is still loaded, so you have to reboot.

[Rockin Robbins]

This post was also completely in error. SecuROM continues to run. It continues to scan for Process Explorer every time SH4UBM starts. It continues to stop SH4UBM from running if it finds Process Explorer processes running. You cannot shut down Process Explorer and play the game. You must reboot.

I recommend not purchasing the U-Boat Missions add-on until Ubi sorts out their SNAFU. I believe Sony misrepresented what SecuROM was doing here, or at least did not fully disclose the nature of their very expensive garbage.

[jazman]

You don't even have to remove process explorer. Set it not to run on system startup. Reboot. Install the add-on. Start Process Explorer and re-check "replace task manager", set it to run at startup if you wish. SecuROM runs no processes after installation of the add-on so it will not disturb us again.


Yes, SecuROM does something. I installed the AddOn Friday night, yesterday I start PE, and BOOM! I get a SecuROM error message when trying to start SH4.


I am curious about an adverse claim about PE accompanied by no evidence or suggestion of a better alternative. That seems a dubious claim. The correct have no need to be mysterious.

No kidding. I'm not allowed to monitor what's going on in my computer system? I guess not when I'm playing their game.

[Madox58]

I prefer TUT over Process Explorer.
It's not free, but the good stuff usually isn't.

[Rockin Robbins]

Make Process Explorer take the place of Task Manager and just press ctrl-alt-delete when you want it to appear. That way it isn't resident when you start SH4UBM. I have to play with that and complain to Dan! That is very different from how he explained the situation. If no SecuROM processes ever run after installation, it could not know about Process Explorer.

Methinks Sony (as usual) sold Ubi down the river. I hate companies that have disdain for their customers. Sony is hated company number one. No Sony in my house of any kind, under any circumstances. They even beat out Bank of America.

[Madox58]

I agree with you on the
No Sony
and
No Bank of America.
Both have been nothing but trouble for me.
:nope:

[1480]

I get the no social notta problemo banco de america, but whats the beef with Sony?

[Rockin Robbins]

Maerean_m is wrong. SecuROM scans the running processes list every time SH4UBM runs. If Mark Russinovich program processes are running it returns:
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/SecuROMSH4UBMmessage.jpg
You want to click the link? Notice from the link that the evil perpetrator is definitely Sony's magnificent SecuROM, telling me what lawful software it will tolerate on my property. That is called conversion and is an actionable offense. Let's click the link and remove all doubt as to what's running here.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/SecuROMpissingmatch.jpg
But I didn't really have to do that, did I. We all knew what was up.

Maerean_m, you were lied to. Never trust Sony. I take that back. Trust them to screw you and the horse you rode in on and then all the customers that trusted you. Trust Sony to destroy what you have worked so long to accomplish: a game company that can make a difference in the untrusting attitudes that game companies and customers have for each other. I'm really sorry I found this.

I have no doubt that they told you SecuROM wouldn't do anything more than check for a legitimate download. Now you know something about Sony's conception of corporate integrety. This shows it has none.

There are cloakers out there that will hide whatever you want from SecuROM, but you have to be very careful because finding them puts you in some dangerous places for your computer system. Unless you know a lot more than I do, its probably best to make a decision whether this uninvited intrusion is bad enough to prevent you from downloading the add-on. Had I been warned I would not have downloaded it, even for free.

I am a trustworthy person who hates being treated as a criminal by people I pay money to. I am very disappointed the Ubi didn't learn from their first expensive foray with Sony. I won't be purchasing any more Ubi products until I find they are free of Sony garbage.

[Rockin Robbins]

I prefer TUT over Process Explorer.
It's not free, but the good stuff usually isn't.

TUT: The Ultimate Troubleshooter (everybody uses articles in their abbreviations, don't they?). It is not a task manager replacement, but has more analysis tools. It would be really inappropriate to use as a simple task manager, just like using Microsoft Word to edit a text file. But it looks like a really nice program for more in-depth analysis and goes way beyond a simple task manager such as Process Explorer.

Read all about it at http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/technology-and-science/ultimate-troubleshooter-utility.asp. (http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/technology-and-science/ultimate-troubleshooter-utility.asp)
See, now everybody knows and I didn't have to act mysterious at all.:|\\ Maybe I'm missing something. I'll just start using acronyms and initials for everything to achieve the desired effect......maybe not.

[Madox58]

As my daughter use to say,
"Whatever!"
Nothing was intended as you took it.
I spend time trying to learn and help.
Not grip.
Whatever!
:roll:

[MarkShot]

Does anyone know if the European CD or DVD version of 1.5 is free of Securom? (I am thinking of having a friend buy it for me and bring it over with him.)

Thanks.

[Reece]

Does anyone know if this problem exists with the Boxed CD version.:-?
Edit: You beat me to it MarkShot!

[d@rk51d3]

Does anyone know if this problem exists with the Boxed CD version.:-?

I believe that some files are there, but are unused.

[MONOLITH]

I guess I'm behind the curve or naive, but I had never even heard of Process Explorer before this thread; so I just haven't been having any problems.

I use "end it all" to shut down all running programs before I start SH4. Then I start SH4, and I'm off sailing the oceans and blowing stuff up.

SecureRom and I have never run into each other, and I don't expect to.


That does not mean I don't sympathize with those who are having problems with it; it's just not a problem for me.

[Madox58]

IDA (Interactive Disassembler Pro)
Shows me no problems.
I run it for several reasons from time to time.
Each system may react differently due to the way each user
runs thier system.
There is so much garbage out there,
it's hard to determine where or when sometheings are loaded.
If one or so persons have a problem?
Anomoly.
I run what is generally refered to as the Best of The Best Pirate type software.
Some of it is custom written.
I have no problems.
I'm not saying others don't!!!
I'm just not seeing those problems on my system.

As for the Sony issue?
My hate started years ago with thier 3.5 floppy drives!!!
Everyone I bought failed within 6 months.
And I bought several hundred at that time!
Did they correct the problem?
What do you think?

[maerean_m]

PC games do NOT sale. Why? Because the operating system allows the users to run 3rd party applications allong with the game. And there are people that use these applications to crack the game so it can be played by anyone, without any proof that it has been paid for. Some never buy the games they play. Even I did this, back when I was a child and didn't make my own money.

Now, it makes perfect sense to me that any PC games should not start while there is a running application that ALL hackers use to remove the protection.

The fact that the SecuRom module checks for hacker-enabled-applications does not contradict with anything from my previous post (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=795203&postcount=15) (even the "You are perfectly safe"). SecuRom does not send any information to any server after the first run of the game, but that does mean it doesn't do all it can to protect the 100000 man-hours put into the game. That's the equivalent of you working by yourself for 60 years non-stop to create the game and bring it to the market.

My personal impression is that there is a 1 to 20 and maybe even a 1 to 50 ratio between paid and cracked PC games out there.
What do you think it would be the reaction of your local fast-food store if only 1 out of 50 customers would have paid for their hamburgers? What would you do if you were the manager of that restaurant?

I wonder, why do we even make PC games? http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/102.gif

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/39.gif



I'm done on this topic.

[jazman]

Now, it makes perfect sense to me that any PC games should not start while there is a running application that ALL hackers use to remove the protection.

Why don't you guys gripe to Microsoft? They're the ones distributing this tool. Are you suggesting that Microsoft is cracker-friendly?? :hmm:

Get it right here, from Microsoft:

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896653.aspx

I bet they're even paying Russinovich to do his dirty deeds! :arrgh!:

[maerean_m]

No, I'm not suggesting that. Please don't misinterpret my words. Is not funny, I was making a serious statement.

I'm suggesting that there are too many not-so-honorable guys out there. And some guys here got stuck on a technicality that stops them to see the big picture: PC gaming will die with all the game genres associated with it. And that frustrates me even more than the piracy issue.

[Reece]

I'm suggesting that there are too many not-so-honorable guys out there.
So the rest have to suffer for these few ... does that make it right to hack our computers with viruses just incase the user might be a pirate?
What do you think it would be the reaction of your local fast-food store if only 1 out of 50 customers would have paid for their hamburgers? What would you do if you were the manager of that restaurant?
I certainly wouldn't infect it with a virus ... I'd be sued!:-?

[maerean_m]

Virus?

Appart from not running while Process Explorer is active, what makes you say (SH4's) SecuRom is a "virus"?

In what way were you or your PC been harmed?

[danlisa]

@ Reece

Piracy is a bigger market than you know. So the many suffering for the few is not the correct analogy to use.

@ All

Let's try to dispel the fears that has been generated over SecuRom shall we?

Example - Let's say that I have a pirated copy of SH4 1.0 and have loaded the ISO/BIN via Deamon tools. The only thing that will happen is that SecuRom will not let the game start. That's it. Other forms of protection will 'blacklist' your optical drive meaning you'll never play the game again.

Now, as far as I can tell, the biggest issue with SecuRom is that it doesn't play well with genuine developer tools aka Privateer's & RR's running processes. That is a failing of it's design and is not malicious in anyway.

I suspect, as usual, the hysteria over copy protection (in this case SecuRom) is caused because it has undesired side affects and, understandably, a user wants to permit or deny what is allowed to run on his/her PC and to govern what a permitted program is or is not allowed to do. I can understand that but I can also understand the need to protect the hard work done by game devs.

The bottom line is, SH4 patched to 1.5 does not need the SecuRom protection, except for online play, so if you don't want to play MP, remove it, if not, please accept that developers wish to protect their work and learn to live with a form of copy protection that in 99% of cases will never cause you any problems.

Simple really.

Edit - @ maerean_m

Sorry for the crossed post. Like I said, Hysteria.;)

[Rockin Robbins]

Here is the long and short of it. Process Explorer can no more help you crack a video game than Disk Defrag. There is only one reason SecuROM discriminates against it: Mark Russinovich found Sony's rootkit hiding on Sony music CD's. Sony's rootkit was a worm, using you as the kind vector, which damaged hundreds of thousands of customers world-wide. Russinovich cost Sony big money, even for Sony. Sony has a score to settle with Mr Russinovich. This is how they settle it. Piracy is not the issue here. Revenge is. Al Capone is putting the hit on Elliot Ness. Just as in "The Untouchables" Russinovich/Ness works for the Feds/Microsoft, not the mob/crackers.

SH4UBM was cracked before it was ever released. SecuROM is useless against the big-time crackers, who were ready to go years ago. Only the legitimate purchasers of SH4UBM cannot run Process Explorer and presumably the other Microsoft Sysinternals Utilities. People who steal SH4UBM are under no such restriction! The pirates cloak their third-party software so SecuROM cannot see it. The pirates remove SecuROM when they post their stolen games! Can't you see that you are encouraging the very thing you claim to fight? Treating honest customers as criminals while leaving the guilty unhindered serves no purpose but to aid Sony in their racketeering.

You are correct: SecuROM is not a virus. A virus is a piece of malware that replicates itself and sends itself to other victims.

SecuROM is worse than that, it is a classic worm: a piece of malware that piggy-backs on a desirable piece of software and installs itself without consent, performing unwanted "functions" that the computer owner does not want or consent to. It does not announce its presence until the "gotcha" and it has no provision for normal uninstall procedures. And it defends itself against other uninstall procedures by rendering software that you DO want inoperative.

What part of SecuROM does not qualify? It is pond scum: useless to UBI, harms your customers and destroys our faith in Ubi. That is its only function. Ubi could have written the call-home procedures itself and ensured that patches were legitimately purchased without assaulting its customers.

I repeat. I know not what course others may take but I've purchased my last Ubi product until SecuROM is no longer an undocumented "feature" of their products. Treating good, honorable, honest, paying customers as criminals is unacceptable. I'm going back to 1.4 and recommend that all do likewise. Don't you dare call me a crook. My honor is not for sale.

The shame is Ubi's isn't for sale either. They PAID to have their reputation trashed. Think about it. Do you think they did that in an informed manner, with full knowledge of the consequences, or were they dishonestly sold a product that did harm to Sony's real customer: Ubi? I'd say the most costly hit and must egregious deception was to Ubi. Not one cracker has been deterred. Every slimeball who wants an illegal copy not subject to the worm can get one right now. All paying customers have been harmed by having their freedom to lawfully use their computer unreasonably and indefensibly infringed upon. Sony has already been paid. I'd call that a lose/lose situation.

Ubi needs to do what I have done. Take their losses (the money to Sony is already gone) and do the right thing by eliminating SecuROM. Write your own checking routines that don't promote a private vendetta against harmless foes and rerelease the software with apologies to customers who have been inadvertently harmed. This should be accompanied by public statements that Ubi values and respects its customers too much to treat them like criminals and is careful to protect their property without interfering with customers' rights to use their machines honestly and honorably. All previous purchasers should be given the right to download the replacement for free, which should automatically remove SecuROM from their machines IF THE CUSTOMER CHOOSES (SecuROM may be holding other games hostage!). THEN sales will raise by a surprising amount as Ubi stands revealed as a company who values their customers and believes that if you care enough to buy a product, you care enough not to distibute copies for free.

Trust is a two way street. If you don't trust me, should I trust you? Not being trusted is a good reason not to trust in return. There are good companies (Midway among many--don't believe the garbage about "everybody does it") who let you run their games without the CD in the drive and without restricting your use of your own property. Ubi needs to become one of them.

[Reece]

Quite agree RR, my mistake as you say, not a virus but a WORM!:x I should be the one to decide what programs, services etc are to be running on my PC, there is far too many things running in the background already without malware such as worms being transferred.:oops: I agree fully with protecting your software by disk protection or secured downloads etc, but NOT by secretly downloading a hidden spy/malware program running in the background on MY pc, especially when the particular application is not even in use, this is criminal!!:nope:

[Yosarian]

My personal impression is that there is a 1 to 20 and maybe even a 1 to 50 ratio between paid and cracked PC games out there.
And why? Take the new games from Ubisoft and other publishers, they rushed them out in the market, nearly untested and with lots of bugs, if someone bought such a game for a full prize, must wait three or four patches until it is playable as it should be out of the box.

If todays publishers see their customers as customers and not as beta-testers and produce games with more quality and manuals that deserve the description "manual", I belive they would sold more of those games.

[Uber Gruber]

Just read the thread and definately agree with Rockin Robbins on this, am very suprised UBI allowed Sony back into the fray considering their previous "excursion". At the end of the day, if you accept this type of behaviour then you are opening the door to the thin edge of the wedge.

As much as I like SH3 (not that keen on SH4 to be honest) and respect the work the devs have put into it and this community, I really do get a little ticked off when people defend UBI regardless, I mean come on people where is your mind?!!!

Just because they have produced a couple of Sub Sims doesn't mean you have to bend over and allow them to take you up the Jakarta!

[cwelt]

Just read the thread and definately agree with Rockin Robbins on this, am very suprised UBI allowed Sony back into the fray considering their previous "excursion". At the end of the day, if you accept this type of behaviour then you are opening the door to the thin edge of the wedge.

As much as I like SH3 (not that keen on SH4 to be honest) and respect the work the devs have put into it and this community, I really do get a little ticked off when people defend UBI regardless, I mean come on people where is your mind?!!!

Just because they have produced a couple of Sub Sims doesn't mean you have to bend over and allow them to take you up the Jakarta!

Couldn't agree more, I have yet to purchase the add-on and must say I am glad I waited. I hate to put the blame on UBI rockin robbins but if you look back at thier history in all thier titles, they don't exactly have a great track record.. I believe they knew exactly what they were getting when they signed on to thie package. The people I feel for is the devs, as their product is getting slandered due to the stupidity of the production company.

[Rockin Robbins]

...I hate to put the blame on UBI rockin robbins but if you look back at thier history in all thier titles, they don't exactly have a great track record.. I believe they knew exactly what they were getting when they signed on to thie package. The people I feel for is the devs, as their product is getting slandered due to the stupidity of the production company.
Please hear exactly what I'm saying. Follow the logic here. I postulate that Ubi is a victim here, just as we are. Otherwise, why did Ubi remove the SecuROM completely in patch 1.3? Patches 1.3 and 1.4 did not scan running processes at all. Only with SH4UBM did SecuROM rear its ugly head again.

Read maerean_m's first post carefully. He is clearly under the clear impression (edit: how could one be unclearly under a clear impression or clearly under an unclear impression? deep thoughts that bear pondering) that SecuROM is supposed to make sure the download is legitimate and then never be seen again. He says so very clearly. Only after we tested and spilled the beans on what really happens did maerean_m change his tune. He feels he has to protect his job. But his reactions validate my theory that Sony really did tell Ubi that SecuROM would just check the download and go to sleep.

I could be too charitable here, but I count Ubi as a victim here, not a perp. They tried to do the right thing and got stabbed in the back. Hold it.... Al Capone uses a gat. :hmm: I'll get all the analogies right eventually.:up:

@Yosarian: your scenario is not a valid excuse to make yourself a criminal. But if you want free food that bad I hope you get your just reward if you feel justified in stealing. Without software pirates, none of this conversation would be happening. All of us should agree that software piracy is never good. It needs to be stopped. But treating valuable customers as criminals hurts a company much worse than piracy ever could. I believe that piracy can be minimized without infringing on customers' rights and with customers' overt support. I paid for my game and I expect others to do so also.

[cwelt]

I do get what you are saying rockin robbins... I just assumed that was his opinion but I see is a member of the dev team. obviously there is some foul play at some level, but I still do not put it past Ubi to be a little more to blame than anyone, they have used SecuROM before and know what it does. As you say they removed it once why bring it back at all.. even if just to verify the DL was legit, there are other ways this can be accomplished.


*** edited ***

[Rockin Robbins]

I do get what you are saying rockin robbins... is maerean_m an Ubi staff or dev??

He's a dev and he's a straight shooter.:up:

[elanaiba]

even if just to verify the DL was legit, there are other ways this can be accomplished.


Please detail :)

[AVGWarhawk]

RR, I see you agree that stealing/piracy is never good. BUT....who are the valuable customers here? How do you determine this? I think that is impossible. Therefore, everyone gets the protection downloaded. Should we know up front it is being loaded? Yes. Do you honestly believe persons such as yourself think you will download a game without some type of protection program? Not these days!!! Like I explained to you a few days ago, I use Rhapsody for my music. I pay .89/song. If I cut off Rhapsody, I can no longer burn these songs to anything. But wait, I paid my .89 for the song. Not only that, without some great computer know how, I can not convert these songs to a different format to play them. IMO, this SecuROM is small beans compared to the other issues companies are dumping on your computer without your knowledge. When I cut off Rhapsoday, they never told me the songs I paid for are now unburnable or transferable to a disc or MP3 player. I guess I'm being concidered a criminal here as well? I have no desire to transfer to any place but my daughters MP3 players or burn to disc for my own personal use. So, my point is and by reading your post that you have been considered a criminal before the fact. Not, so really. There is no way UBI can determine who is a criminal therefore, all get the SecuROM.

Just my observations RR. :up:

[MONOLITH]

please accept that developers wish to protect their work and learn to live with a form of copy protection that in 99% of cases will never cause you any problems.



Agreed.

[MarkShot]

Can anyone answer if the European CD/DVD has Securom for me? Or this the just the USA download?

Also, are both equally compatible for patching?

Thanks.

[maerean_m]

Can anyone answer if the European CD/DVD has Securom for me? Or this the just the USA download?

Also, are both equally compatible for patching?
Only the download version has SecuRom inside it.
The "game" inside all add-on versions is the same.

[Rockin Robbins]

BUT....who are the valuable customers here? :up: The valuable customers are the ones who buy the game. The members of SUBSIM are valuable customers. You can see that having paid for the game, we don't suffer fools who would talk about stealing software. Have you ever seen a thief treated in a friendly way here?

The crackers don't pay for the game, they steal it. Illegal downloaders don't pay for the game, they steal it too. And their stolen copy does not include SecuROM. SecuROM only punishes good customers who paid for the game.

It's like my neighborhood. There hadn't been a fatal accident in over 20 years until two years ago. Then a drunk with no license and violating parole, hit and killed a kid on a perfectly straight road with a mile visibility both directions. The response: 100 stop signs indiscriminately placed in a 3 square mile area. Would any number of stop signs stop the perp? NO! He had no respect for the law. But the stop signs have punished every honest, law-abiding resident of my neighborhood multiple times per day for two years. Next time we get a similar slimeball in the neighborhood he will kill somebody the same as the first, unencumbered by the 100 stop signs we obey every day.

Punish the innocent. It's easy! It's fast! It makes you feel good! But it's a losing proposition. Customer loyalty takes years to build. Customer hostility can be produced overnight. People who buy a game will not pirate it. People who steal a game are unhindered by any copy protection. SecuROM and all the other commercial "protection" rackets were cracked years ago. SH4UBM went into illegal distribution without SecuROM minutes after it was released, unless it was stolen before then.

If players value their freedom to operate their computer lawfully without unreasonable interference, they must refuse to cooperate with companies that view them with disdain. A company who thinks its paying customers steal more software than they buy is on the road to being another Sony. You can't let the slimeballs lull you into assuming that everybody is a slimeball. Then the slimeballs win.

The right way is to protect your product in an open, honest manner. Let potential customers know what kind of copy protection you use and whether it enforces personal vendettas against consumer warriors who caught the company which sells the copy protection committing worse offenses than the thieves. Let informed paying customers decide whether they wish to be treated like that. Or come up with a protection system that respects your customers and rewards them for their honesty.

Ironically, as things stand now, the only rewards go to the pirates and illegal downloaders, who get to use the games without restrictions. We're honest because we're honest people, not because of any reward. But being appreciated would be nice. And we're the ONLY source of income Ubi has. Trust is a two way street. Why not try building some? Trust flows from the top down before it flows from the bottom up. Some people just are not trustworthy, but it is foolish to treat the rest of us as if we were paying money to steal the product. Any fool can see that makes about as much sense as a screen door in a submarine!

[MarkShot]

I will get my copy from Europe, then.

However, this is still an expensive and unnecessary inconvenience for me which does nothing to improve my impression of the publisher.

[Rockin Robbins]

No credit goes to Sony or Ubi for this. If you download Process Explorer 11, you can just shut down Process Explorer, SecuROM cannot find this version only. If you are actually running Process Explorer when you start SH4UBM, the SH4UBM will then refuse to run. That meets my criteria for a reasonable compromise.

If you want to snoop around, just start SH4UBM and then run Process Explorer. They run simultaneously with no problem. I'm doing it right now. I'll post a screenprint if anybody's curious. Snoop all you want into SH4UBM's running processes. All Process Explorer will let you do is shut them down. Hey, that's what Enditall does and it's not on the blacklist! So much for all the silly rationalizations for why it's in Ubi's interest to ensure you can't run Process Explorer. You can! I've got some high dry land in the Florida Everglades I'd like to sell Ubi. They seem willing to buy any story, no matter how laughable it is. As for me, I was born recently, but not yesterday. I recognize incompetent hypocracy when it bites me in the arse.

Doesn't change my position though. No more Ubi products are purchased by this family until the SecuROM garbage is removed and Ubi realizes that customer is spelled with a capital "C." There are too many companies around that actually value my business and actually like me to tolerate being treated like a criminal. Let 'em try to make money doing business with crooks.

@AVG: that's why I buy CDs. Cheaper per song, no DRM and they're a perfect backup. I'm an album guy from way back anyway. Downloaded music is a loser so far, but there are signs of intelligence almost everywhere but....you guessed it! Sony! Treat customers as you would like to be treated and you sell more product. Treat them with disdain and go deservedly broke.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/ProcessExplorerSH4UBMprocesseslist.jpg

Now all that money went to Sony for what? To protect who? From who?

Enough of this! I'm off to find the head in my U-Boat!:up:

[AVGWarhawk]

@AVG: that's why I buy CDs. Cheaper per song, no DRM and they're a perfect backup. I'm an album guy from way back anyway. Downloaded music is a loser so far, but there are signs of intelligence almost everywhere but....you guessed it! Sony! Treat customers like you would like to be treated and you sell more product. Treat them with disdain and go broke.

I'm a old record man myself. I remember the days of old with a penny on my stylus arm. Until I got a turn table with weighted arm. As far a the CD. I do not car to purchase a CD when I wish to have only one song. I enjoy looking through Rhapsody and finding music that would take hours to local at the music store. Not to mention finding music that I can not find at the locale music store. It just befuddles me that once you cut Rhapsody, you can not do a thing with the music you paid for on your hard drive other then play it on your computer. We get off track here.

Perhaps I worded my "valuable customer" wrong. What I really ment to say was how do you determine the crackers and legits? As far as I know, you can not determine the honest and dishonest. So, what do you do? Attempt to create a program to keep your hard work safe and going to paying customers. Does it work all the time? No. Does it attempt to insure you get your dollars for your hard work. Yes it does. Therefore, you as a customer have to suffer (although I do not have an issue with it) because of the hacks and crackers. These are the folks who need your attention. UBI is attempting to keep their doors open as a game creater. In doing so, download protection is created. Be it SecuROM or SF(:shifty: ) I would also want something that I created to have some returns in the form of dollars. Not illegit downloads. So, who is really making the legit suffer? UBI or the hackers who have nothing better to do other then steal software and when they get caught they stand there looking innocent. Everyday, I pass by camera that are monitored by security people. Am I a criminal? Well, no. So why do I have to be subjected to cameras? Because of the criminal element. Same applies here. I'm subjected to SecuROM because of the criminal element. But, that does not mean I should not be notifed SecuROM is being used and I agree to it being installed.

[Rockin Robbins]

Honest people will always buy games. Drown my house in free copies and I'll go to the store and buy the game. Dishonest people wouldn't buy that game to begin with. They steal things, and to them the theft is more fun than the game.

Nothing will make the dishonest people buy the game. But it is very easy to tee off the honest people so they will go elsewhere with their money. The only money out there is from the honest customers. The dishonest ones are losers whether or not they find a way to steal the game.

The reflection to that truth is that copy protection does not limit piracy in any way. Copy protection is snake oil, useless to the buyer and don't bother asking the snake. The only one to benefit is the slimey seller. A new approach is needed.

Oh, yeah, I was off to find the head!

[AVGWarhawk]

Now, that we have this out of the way. What exactly is SecuROM doing to your system? I'm a bit lost here. Currently SecuROM is sitting on my hard drive. Sometime last year it was loaded. It has sat dormant until this release. As far as I can tell, it has done nothing at all to my computer other then allow me to download a legit purchase of the game.

[Onkel Neal]

If it's not Starforce, it's Safedisk, or Securom, but all these big dollar games are going to have some kind of copy protection to prevent people from stealing it. I've had all three and probably several others on my PCs for 6 years, no big deal. I don't get why this agitates and excites some people but apparently, it does. Play the game, enjoy the game, and who cares about the copy protection, except pirates.

Can we let this die? This thread is giving the impression that U-boat Missions has some kind of PC-nuking trojan built in, when in fact, it's nothing different than 90% of the game on the market and on people's computers.

[MarkShot]

RR,

So, did you boycott SH3 due to SF? I did for a couple of years. Finally, after buying it, it was necessary to disinfect it in order to run it safely.

Well, I'll buy from Europe, but I fully understand and support you position.

[AVGWarhawk]

This thread is giving the impression that U-boat Missions has some kind of PC-nuking trojan built in, when in fact, it's nothing different than 90% of the game on the market and on people's computers.

This was my thoughts as well. There is sits. Allows me to load up a game legit. It shuts off never to be seen again until my next purchase. I don't see it doing anything other then allowing to download a legally purchased game. What is it really doing other than allowing UBI to get compensated for their work? I'm at a loss really.

[CaptainHaplo]

Ya know - I haven't gotten the add on yet. As for copy protection - heck - with all the talent we have here I can't believe some folks haven't gotten together to do a few brainstorm sessions to create a new "style" copy protection scheme. There are so many ways it could be done with modern data encryption values. Being a network engineer with a focus on security, encryption hashes are easily created one way and made unique. I don't see why something like this couldnt be used for copy protection. Granted - it would mean an original cd would have to be used, but that wouldnt be an issue for legitimate users - especially if a company using such a product was willing to provide a replacement cd reasonably.

[jazman]

Next: what happens when I need to upgrade my computer? Is my "activation" portable to my new install? I ask because I just did an OS reinstall, but my machine is long in the tooth.

[AVGWarhawk]

Next: what happens when I need to upgrade my computer? Is my "activation" portable to my new install? I ask because I just did an OS reinstall, but my machine is long in the tooth.

You have the activation key that was provided when purchased? Then yes, you should be able to load the game to the new OS.

[Rockin Robbins]

RR,

So, did you boycott SH3 due to SF? I did until October of last year. Finally, after buying it, it was necessary to disinfect it in order to run it safely.

Well, I'll buy from Europe, but I fully understand and support you position. I was a holdout on SH3 for almost a year. Then when I tried it I found that for some reason Starforce didn't interfere with my stuff, not even Daemon Tools. It also doesn't care about Microsoft Sysinternals Utilities.

@Neal: SecuROM has been much worse for me. I found that it produces files on your machine with illegal character names, so you cannot delete them. It has no uninstall procedure, except for outside utilities. It keeps innocent Microsoft software from running simply because the author of that software is Mark Russinovich, not because it is potentially harmful or could be used to steal SH4. Process Explorer is as harmful as Disk Defrag or hard drive read/write procedures written into Windows. Enditall does the same thing: shows running processes and lets you kill them, but isn't attacked by SecuROM.

The worst thing about SecuROM is its owner: Sony, a company without morals or respect for its customers. Sony's infamous rootkit still cripples hundreds of thousands of computers all over the world. SecuROM continues Sony's policy of sneering at its customers and daring them not to like it. Ubi is the biggest victim here. We can simply avoid the problem.

As I posted, it is manageable as things now stand. I just wonder what Sony's next move is. It won't be nice. Hopefully they're too involved with getting triple the fair price for high def DVD players to work on a new SecuROM. They did that courtesy of a $400 million payoff to Warner Brothers to lock out their competition. We helped finance that strongarm maneuver and I don't feel good about that. Al Capone was an angel compared to these guys at Sony. Robber barons they are.

I'm gonna go sink something and drop it. Not coming back to this thread. Still can't find the head in the U-Boat. Are you sure Germans use bathrooms?:rotfl:

[d@rk51d3]

[quote=MarkShot]
I'm gonna go sink something and drop it. Not coming back to this thread. Still can't find the head in the U-Boat. Are you sure Germans use bathrooms?:rotfl:

Sooooo, THAT'S why people say I'm full of $*it! :lol:

[AVGWarhawk]

I'm gonna go sink something and drop it. Not coming back to this thread. Still can't find the head in the U-Boat. Are you sure Germans use bathrooms?:rotfl:

Sounds like a plan.