Silent Hunter

[elanaiba]

There is no SH3 vs SH4, U-boats versus Fleetboats, and there should NOT be. The two sides are so different they can co-exist peacefully in my heart and mind. But on the other hand they're so much the same but in a good way.



The add-on focuses on u-boats because we felt that we NEED to:

-allow u-boat campaigns on the superior engine that is SH4; Perfect engine? no! But at least its our current engine, not the old code in SH3.

-get more SH4 sales from people that simply would not buy SH4 without u-boats. Yes, money keeps SH franchise in the play and for the record pays for my bills.



In the end, remember that more stuff in SH4 is more stuff in SH4, not less. If you feel that the add-on is not interesting for you, well, not much we can do for now. Like any project, there are things you get to put in and things you don't.

We did NOT turn our attention away from the Pacific, we did NOT say "screw the Fleet boats, back to the Atlantic". Its something we needed to do.

Remember, a better world is a better world for all players in it. The current (1.4 +) technology in SH4 allows dynamic loading of ships, and the overall campaign and roster structure allows for unlimited ship types and textures without the hit in performance/loading you would get in SH3 or SH4 stock.

So, any new ship, any improved campaign layer, improves the world for everyone.

Dan

P.S. As you all know I'm not a marketing guy. This is not a nice comunique, and its not sweet talk, its straight of my chest. I love you all guys :) But you need to love each other too :p

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/6889/youmakebunnycrytj7.jpg

[Blood_splat]

I love my PK hehe.:p

[longam]

Keep up the good work Dev’s and make some more add-ons would ya? This keeps the game alive for me and gives it a new life for us to enjoy. :up:

edit: ah thats better, just saw to many bad post this morning

[AVGWarhawk]

Thanks Dan:up:

[tater]

That's the kind of communication I can respect.

<S>

tater

[Boris]

Yeah, thanks for setting the record straight Dan :up:

[ReallyDedPoet]

There is still huge potential for growth in the main Pacific Theatre, there is the add on that should eventually open up the entire Atlantic Theatre, so it is a great time to be into this stuff :D

The work of the devs has never been a issue Dan, you guys have done great work with the resources that you have been given :yep: I think the frustration is more with UBI, but at the end of the day life goes on right, and by folks supporting Silent Hunter no matter what the theatre, we stand a much better chance of seeing future projects.

That is a win-win for all of us here.


RDP

[stabiz]

Silent Hunter is better than sex. (Almost)

[elanaiba]

Ooook....

[Takao]

I agree with reallydedpoet, my beef has always been with UBI and not the Devs.

Shame though your not in marketing, as i have not been able to find it on UBI's website, nor on Gamestop or EBGames. Heck, i even tried Walmart's site. No dice. It does seem popular on sites of "lesser legal standing" though. As a simple google search revealed. Ahh well, I'll check the stores on my way to work and see what they have or know.

I would like to make a request. For the next add-on(if), how about playable Japanese or British submarines. Heck, even Dutch submarines accomplished more in the Pacific than the Germans. http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/specials/special_attacks_wwii.htm
No more fantasy submarines like the Type XVIII. And yes, I know, they were laid down, but they were never completed. On second thought, maybe not, a Type XXIC would be nice. Nothing like having 18 torpedo tubes.

Thanks for providing us with what has turned into an excellent game.

[Wilcke]

Dan,

Thanks for the post! Its a great sim with a great future!

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Ok, this guy is being paid by Ubisoft to do this. Bloody Marketing Guys I say let 'em walk the plank!:yep::lol::rotfl::arrgh!:

[Wilcke]

Ok, this guy is being paid by Ubisoft to do this. Bloody Marketing Guys I say let 'em walk the plank!:yep::lol::rotfl::arrgh!:

Support SH4 buy two copies of the Addon.:up:

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Erm, can I have one please?:yep::lol:

[AkbarGulag]

There is no SH3 vs SH4, U-boats versus Fleetboats, and there should NOT be. The two sides are so different they can co-exist peacefully in my heart and mind. But on the other hand they're so much the same but in a good way.


Well, releasing this has deffinately worked to draw in the SH3 diehards. Despite the yummy engine that has been out for over a year! This SH4 section is now inundated with them, messing up cushions and leaving the windows open.

Your bunny better be good at doing the dishes :D

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

I could do without drooling, rabid u-boat fans for now. Wilma! Get me gun!:yep:

[Sailor Steve]

Brilliant post! Brilliant because it echoes my feelings exactly.:rotfl:

I loved AOD, and I loved Silent Hunter. I love SH3 and I know I'll love SH4 if I ever get my computer to where it can run it. I love ships, period. I agree that it's weird that every time a new game, fix, add-on or even mod comes out there are people on both 'sides' of the issue who cry that they've had enough of this or that and why don't the stupid dev's make what 'everybody' (read 'I') wants?

Me, I want it all. I've wanted to play SH4 ever since it was released, and I want to sea SH3's world with the better graphics and crew management. I suppose that by the time that happens there will be some new improvement, and once again the guys on the 'other side' can cry about how they're being cheated and it's not what the players really want.

Sorry to rant, but this pushed all the right buttons.

[Captain von Keldunk]

http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/22671f80ce/1094189.jpg
Slow speed, 8m.:D

[Subject]

Yes, money keeps SH franchise in the play and for the record pays for my bills.:up: Glad to help! Disc should arrive tomorrow! :smug:


http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/6889/youmakebunnycrytj7.jpg:hmm: "Bunny" - is that romanian for rat??

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

You read these posts and you guys call ME crazy? One guy thinks it's better than sex fer cryin' out loud. You gotta get it on kid AND QUICK! I think some of you have been out to sea waaaay too long.:yep::lol: Me? I love Romanian Bunnies.:smug:

[dcb]

Well, releasing this has deffinately worked to draw in the SH3 diehards... This SH4 section is now inundated with them, messing up cushions and leaving the windows open.
Now, isn't this a little bit insulting, or even flaming, AkbarGulag?:nope:

Same here:
I could do without drooling, rabid u-boat fans for now. Wilma! Get me gun!:yep:

Guys, keep it polite! This isn't the place for insults between members. I can't remember any SH3 fan insulting the players of SH4. On the other hand, there's plenty of insulting posts from SH4 fans against people playing SH3. Not nice!

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

In defence of AkbarGulag he isn't flaming anyone. Yer hear?:stare: My post was meant to be a joke...not a very good one though. My take is that if you have a sim that reflects naval warfare in the pacific what the hell has u-boats got to do with that? Just go make another SH title for that!

[Mush Martin]

Thanks. thanks for all the hard work and all the beautiful results
Silent Hunter is a Great Series.
ps. thanks to anyone who worked to fix the River Class Frigates.

Regards
MM

[kylesplanet]

I appreciate everyones work on the add-on and will install it as soon as the mods are compliant. I'm sure the U-Boats will be good for the sim but I do feel like the Fleetboats have been set aside for awhile.

I guess in the end I understand the reasons but it doesn't make it any easier, plus, I have a great sim as it is now.

[Wilcke]

I appreciate everyones work on the add-on and will install it as soon as the mods are compliant. I'm sure the U-Boats will be good for the sim but I do feel like the Fleetboats have been set aside for awhile.

I guess in the end I understand the reasons but it doesn't make it any easier, plus, I have a great sim as it is now.

Not at all Kylesplanet, you have Trigger Maru Overhaul, and the upcoming release of Real Fleet Boat. Both of these MODS do a lot for the Fleet Boats. Regardless of the U-Boat Addon being released or not, there are many dedicated modders still working hard to make this sim the best possible for the PTO fans!

Its a good time to be in SH4.

Happy Hunting

[kylesplanet]

I appreciate everyones work on the add-on and will install it as soon as the mods are compliant. I'm sure the U-Boats will be good for the sim but I do feel like the Fleetboats have been set aside for awhile.

I guess in the end I understand the reasons but it doesn't make it any easier, plus, I have a great sim as it is now.

Not at all Kylesplanet, you have Trigger Maru Overhaul, and the upcoming release of Real Fleet Boat. Both of these MODS do a lot for the Fleet Boats. Regardless of the U-Boat Addon being released or not, there are many dedicated modders still working hard to make this sim the best possible for the PTO fans!

Its a good time to be in SH4.

Happy Hunting

I should have been more clear, the modders here are the best and make our sim as great as it is, I was referring more to what Ubisoft might do in the future as far as add-ons and such, I know what will take center stage with them and it ain't Fleetboats. As I said before, the sim is wonderful and I can enjoy it for along time to come, especially with all the upcoming mods.:yep:

[skwasjer]

I think the addon is a very nice piece of work, and for a price that I smoke away in 2 days, I mean, lol. Sure there are things that could be better or you can discuss to lengths that Ubi should have included other content, or that you don't like uboats. What matters is, the title is alive and being further developed. Or would anyone rather see Ubi kill the franchise?

I for one, would like to hear somewhere this year plans are made for a SH5 due late 2009 :rock:

Come one elanaiba, you know you want to! :ping:

[Rockin Robbins]

http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/22671f80ce/1094189.jpg
Slow speed, 8m.:DNow THAT makes my blood race, Captain.

Dan, you keep saying that there is a necessary simbiotic relationship between developers and game companies and some around here just have a medical need to hate Ubisoft. Their money made all this possible! I hope they realize now that the Silent Hunter series has lots of growth potential for years to come with a tremendous range for expansion. Developers and game companies perform completely different functions and both are necessary. If there were no money how would the developers live? So you guys have any idea what a leap of trust it was for Ubi to ditch the evil Sony disk copy protection? You have to support a company like that!

And finally, we players have a function, and that is to make the game company profitable by buying their products, communicating what we like and what we don't like (keeping in mind that we write because we mostly like what they are doing:shifty:), and letting our enthusiasm and knowledge gain new customers and retain old ones.

I'm happy. The expansion pack shows continued committment to the franchise. Let's buy it!

[bosna387]

great post mate :) im new for this forum but i have played this game for a long time i like it a lot ;)

[-Pv-]

Was Elanaiba's comments lost on anyone? He's saying stop putting words and thoughts into the Dev's brains and mouths. They haven't abandoned ANYONE!
-Pv-

[theluckyone17]

I'm going to reiterate this again, as I've mentioned in a few other threads: $10 is not much, these days. It'll get me:

~3 gallons of gasoline, in NY state... that'll get me to work and back 3 days (~22 miles a gallon, ~10 miles to work).
Less than taking my wife and I out to dinner at a fast food restaurant.
Less than getting my wife and I coffee at Starbucks (ahem, not coffee, them darn fancy drinks she insists on having)
A six pack of imported beer with change left over, or a twelve pack of Miller High Life (Champagne of beers! How could you say no? :()1:)
A pair of jeans at Wal-MartNeed I go on? Ubi, the dev's, etc., all deserve at least this much, if not more. Yeah, SH4 ain't perfect. Take a look around, folks... the world ain't perfect, neither. And if spending a trifle more gets a better product... I'm all for it.

That being said, Elanaiba's comment impressed one thing upon me... it seems like Ubi and the dev's are realizing exactly how dedicated and determined the modding community is. It's something that I've been asking for right along... that they fix & add what they can that has to be hard coded, and let the rest of it be handled through the modding community. There's no sense in the dev's wasting good labor on correcting the label on the German crew's belt buckle... hey, we can do that.

A perfect example: the campaign system. The modding community has already proven that they can put out a more historically accurate and realistic campaign file than the stock. So why should the dev's put labor (which equals $$$ in the corporate world) into fixing something that the modders can? They should concentrate on other things... like making that campaign system load dynamically, keeping performance reasonable. Things like that, hardcoded features, the modding community cannot touch... not until everybody concerned decides to open source it, at least. If you're waiting on that, well... let me know how it works out for you.

That being said, I'm going back to playing now.

[kiwi_2005]

Thanks Dan. Silent Hunter 4 is a dream come true for me:) And now i got Uboats addon! Two birds with one stone. Im feeling lucky..:arrgh!:

[clayton]

Well, releasing this has deffinately worked to draw in the SH3 diehards... This SH4 section is now inundated with them, messing up cushions and leaving the windows open.
Now, isn't this a little bit insulting, or even flaming, AkbarGulag?:nope:

Same here:
I could do without drooling, rabid u-boat fans for now. Wilma! Get me gun!:yep:

Guys, keep it polite! This isn't the place for insults between members. I can't remember any SH3 fan insulting the players of SH4. On the other hand, there's plenty of insulting posts from SH4 fans against people playing SH3. Not nice!


I can!

[LukeFF]

I can!
FFS, give it a rest already, will you?!

:roll:

[Laffertytig]

great to hear a dev makin a post like that. things havent looked better for the silent hunter series since the 1st release over 10 years ago.

now if only wolfpacks can somehow find their way into the game then things really would be perfect

[DickDastardly]

If people buy the addon then Ubi get to see there's still money to be made in the SH franchise. That's what may fund your Jap subs in the pacific, SH5 or whatever it is that's your particular boat.

An addon for $9.95? That's not much more than the price of a coffee at Starbucks. There's things that I don't particularly like about SH3 and 4, but at least they're out there, which is better than "why don't they make games like that any more?"

[joegrundman]

This whole SH3 vs SH4, fleet boats vs U-boats, thing is depressing and childish

[Nuc]

Dan, I want to add my thanks for the post. As far as the marketing guys go, I makes sense to me that if Ubisoft has one product targeted at larger combined market, we'll get a better product than if they have to develop and support two products for two smaller markets

[Triad773]

Hi Guys- I think it is a good thing that they provide the add-on (and its enhancements), keep interest up and draw in U-Boat fans. I had one question I thought was relevant to the discussion though: my impression was that the Indian Ocean action was a relative backwater to the larger actions of either the Atlantic or Pacific theatres of Operation. Does anyone have info on what of any significance the U-boats did in the Indian Ocean? I had looked around a bit on Wikipedia (not the best source, but pretty well rounded IMHO) and not really found anything.

The one story I remember is that while the Wolfpacks of the Atlantic were having their keels handed to them that the German crews were rather content with limited action/danger to themselves in the Indian Ocean, and were happy enough to sit out the larger action until the ending of hostilities. I am looking to be educated here, so if anyone knows of some info here that'd be great :know:

Also, with the addition of the German ship models and the fact that the game map IS global, that it would make perfect sense for Ubi to eventually open up the whole shooting match so to speak. But meanwhile I was interested in trying to imagine why they'd set the add on in such a place.

Thanks in advance-

Triad

[tater]

One thing, from a "global war" standpoint as it relates to marketing, I'd suggest thinking in terms of making sure content is added for all the various theaters til all the bugs/issues are fixed.

Meaning that adding a mostly u-boat add on is cool as long as there are some bones thrown to the fleet boats. If it became totally worldwide war (Atlantic added), then a bone to the PTO, and a bone to the ATO.

A key thing would be communication, frankly. If the community had a sense of where things were generally going, then there would be less surprise/consternation over a perceived slight.

Your post, Dan, is a case in point. Great post, but had it been made right before the add-on was announced, or as part of such an announcement, it would have saved you from reading various vitriol :)

A roadmap post, if you will saying that you'd like to continue providing paid add-ons, and that while the plan is to extend the war to the Atlantic/Med using the SH4 engine, all such add-on will include game improvements and content for the other theaters. You get the idea.

<S>

tater

[kylesplanet]

One thing, from a "global war" standpoint as it relates to marketing, I'd suggest thinking in terms of making sure content is added for all the various theaters til all the bugs/issues are fixed.

Meaning that adding a mostly u-boat add on is cool as long as there are some bones thrown to the fleet boats. If it became totally worldwide war (Atlantic added), then a bone to the PTO, and a bone to the ATO.

A key thing would be communication, frankly. If the community had a sense of where things were generally going, then there would be less surprise/consternation over a perceived slight.

Your post, Dan, is a case in point. Great post, but had it been made right before the add-on was announced, or as part of such an announcement, it would have saved you from reading various vitriol :)

A roadmap post, if you will saying that you'd like to continue providing paid add-ons, and that while the plan is to extend the war to the Atlantic/Med using the SH4 engine, all such add-on will include game improvements and content for the other theaters. You get the idea.

<S>

tater

Yes yes. You get this Tater! This is exactly my concern.:yep:

[Archie]

I'm stayin' outta this one, otherwise Sailor Steve will have to buy me TWO beers at the get together! :rotfl:

Understand the big picture completely, ya can't keep them all happy all the time. PERSONALLY, and in MY OPINION, I would have preferred to see a Japanese expansion, that would make sense to me as a realism junkie in the Pacific, but having said that I completely understand the marketing reasoning for doing what they have done.

At the end of the day, if'n ya don't like the heat, get outta the kitchen, or put another way, just don't buy the add-on (but if you don't you will be missing out on the further developments of the series, and Dan won't be able to buy food next week) :arrgh!:

[LukeFF]

Hi Guys- I think it is a good thing that they provide the add-on (and its enhancements), keep interest up and draw in U-Boat fans. I had one question I thought was relevant to the discussion though: my impression was that the Indian Ocean action was a relative backwater to the larger actions of either the Atlantic or Pacific theatres of Operation. Does anyone have info on what of any significance the U-boats did in the Indian Ocean? I had looked around a bit on Wikipedia (not the best source, but pretty well rounded IMHO) and not really found anything.

http://www.uboat.net/ops/monsun.htm

[TheSatyr]

What I find annoying are all the people going on about how if you are into subsims you have to buy the expansion to support the devs and the franchise. Sorry,but I won't spend a penny on something I do not want,and for various reasons I do not want the expansion.

Yeah it's only 9.95$,but it's 9.95$ I can find a better use for.

[elanaiba]

Its a free world for sure.

[gouldjg]

Well I have just bought SH4 again and the add on and guess what?

I am playing the Americans first and will only later go into the Uboat side.

I bought it because it offered more than just a German Uboat game, it has other benefits and makes me curious as to what the devs done.

I had nothing against the Pacific original but did feel I always wanted more from it and now I have got it. Dont understand what I have got but that will all pan out over the next few days.

Thanks UBI, please take my £25 for both and I hope it helps develop that SH5 one day

[Friedmann]

All I can say is that this U-Boat Add-on "controversy" has to be the silliest thing I have ever seen in a simulation community.

To those that are taking some kinda natonalistic stand over the game. Its not cool its not patriotic, it just makes you a borish oaf.

To those that are making a stand based on consumer ethics, you must be new to the simulation genre. Ubi-Soft while having room for improvement is treating the Silent Hunter fanbase pretty well. You wanna talk about anguish? B17 2: The Mighty 8th that was anguish there are so many to list where the community got royally buggered but this isn't one of them.

That said gentleman it's a Sunday and I have either a Sugar Boat out of Manilla or IX out of Penang to oversee, it sure is nice to have variety.

I can't wait for the sun to pass the yardarm.

[stabiz]

Norwegians always make alot of sense.:up:

[THE_MASK]

If you dont buy the addon/1.5 patch then obviously 1.4 is the last patch for you . I guess that Ubi said no more patches and the paid patch was born . Hopefully there will be lots more paid patches to come . cheers , sober out .

[LukeFF]

I guess that Ubi said no more patches and the paid patch was born . Hopefully there will be lots more paid patches to come . cheers , sober out .

Do explain how 1.5 is a paid patch.

[theluckyone17]

I think the $10 add-on's worth it, and I haven't touched the German side. Probably won't touch it until the modder's get a hold of the campaign files a bit... for a variety of reasons, I can't seem to stand the stock campaign.

I love the various improvements to the UI, and the performance increases have seemed to help. I can finally run at the native resolution of 1440x900 with all my goodies. That NVidia shimmering waves in the distance bug seems to have been fixed, too.

I haven't played enough to see all the other improvements/features, and I'm still missing TM, but what I've seem so far is worth the $10.

[neon_black88]

I guess that Ubi said no more patches and the paid patch was born . Hopefully there will be lots more paid patches to come . cheers , sober out .
Yes because patches add entire dynamic campaigns pluss crap loads of new content. Whens my company of heroes patch with new factions and new single player campaigns comming?

[DS]

I downloaded 1.5 last night. It's great, and makes worthwhile interface changes across the board, including to the fleet boats. I would definately buy it again, and I will continue to buy every thing the Silent Hunter franchise puts out, including a Destroyer Command II (hint hint).

[DeepIron]

Very candid post from elanaiba... :up:

However, I think you're going to continue to see a U-Boat vs. Fleet boat rivalry of sorts. Why? Because, even though SH4 is just a sim, it attracts, for the most part, a certain kind of serious (read: historical) sim player. I think a number of players in both camps are quite serious about their gameplay, and this attitude can certainly find it's way into opinion and posts.

So, then, in "fairness" to the PTO Fleetboat crowd, I'll expect to see a more "PTO-centric" patch (1.6?), that incorporates PTO Fleetboat fixes, requests and game resources (new vessels!) in the future.;) Charge $9.95 like Ubi did for 1.5 and I'll buy it too... :up:

[fidget]

Thanks for sharing the thoughts elanaiba. Just downloaded and installed the expansion yesterday and for the money and additional content, it's a great deal.

[AkbarGulag]

I guess that Ubi said no more patches and the paid patch was born . Hopefully there will be lots more paid patches to come . cheers , sober out .
Yes because patches add entire dynamic campaigns pluss crap loads of new content. Whens my company of heroes patch with new factions and new single player campaigns comming?
Umm, as a COH user, who has the expansions. The patches ARE free. It's the add-on content thats paid for. Are you sure you own a copy :|

[elanaiba]

Yes, COH has one paid expansion (also works stand-alone) - Opposing Fronts.

COH is an interesting example in that all players can play MP together, provided they are patched to the last version.

But unless you have both version of the game (COH and Op Fronts) you cannot choose those specificl factions in MP, even though the opponents you meet have them. Very cool!

Of course, some users had to install a 1.2+ gigs patch for that to happen.

[SuperCavitation]

I think a destroyer/surface fleet exp is in the works.

[AkbarGulag]

Of course, some users had to install a 1.2+ gigs patch for that to happen.
Really :o I never had such problems.

The largest problem with most games is the securerom. Nothing more annoying than paying for a product (usually 2-3 sets so my brother and friends can LAN) then find it takes you 4 days to swap drives around or install over network drives while enduring unkown errors.. We have even had to resort to using 'tools' to allow a legitimate install :lol:

Fortunately, this is where Ubisoft is one step ahead :yep:

[neon_black88]

Umm, as a COH user, who has the expansions. The patches ARE free. It's the add-on content thats paid for. Are you sure you own a copy :|
Yes but the u-boat expansion comes with new content, its not just a patch.

And yes I play company of heroes online almost once a day.

Really :o I never had such problems.

If you had the original company of hereos and wanted to patch up to the latest version without buying OF, you had to get a 1.2 gigabyte patch that contained all the required files to play against the two new factions. Which is good IMO because otherwise it would split the online community into those who have the expansion, and those who dont which is bad.

So is 1.4 getting patched to 1.5 without the addon or recieving its own patches?

[AkbarGulag]

Umm, as a COH user, who has the expansions. The patches ARE free. It's the add-on content thats paid for. Are you sure you own a copy :|
Yes but the u-boat expansion comes with new content, its not just a patch.

And yes I play company of heroes online almost once a day.
I think you are mssing something here. If you own SH4 and expansions come out, they add not only extra content, they also make fixes to the game engine.... ala PATCH.

If you buy no add-on... you are doomed to live on 1.4 PATCH. Even though people with an add-on get PATCHED as well as having EXTRA CONTENT.

Sorry for my caps, but it is becoming difficult to have any form of discussion here recently without some sort of debacle.

With the instigation of the GU.exe file, I thought they may have been leaning towards a dynamic online patch system. So far this is not the case.

I'm not whinging or having a cry here, just stating a reality. If anyone thinks i'm making things up and stating lies, then knock yourself out and say so.

[neon_black88]

Ok yeah, THAT is a stupid system, but I thought your logic was that people were paying for a patch (as in the expansion is nothing more than a patch), but I agree that people with 1.4 shouldn't be left behind. Has there been any official word on what happens with patches from now on? As in, is it officail that they are leaving 1.4 behind unless you buy the add-on.

[AkbarGulag]

One of the developers was in this thread when you first mis-understood me. Don't worry, it happens everytime he visits, I say something, then someone says something to me and starts some sort of debate, then the developer leaves. Can't blame him really.

[elanaiba]

What developer was here? Let me at him :D

Its not that people "live/reside" in threads, you know?

[AkbarGulag]

What developer was here? Let me at him :D


The hairy unkempt guy with the peg leg, you cant miss him really :lol:

[Ducimus]

For those who don't understand the Fleetboat vs Uboat thing, I offer this perspective:

Sometime when i was a kid, i picked up the book "Submarine!" by Edward Beach. I read the stories, and something inside me was hooked. I then started reading up on more books. It was like reading and adventure story, only it was true.

I wasn't even a teenager yet, and i knew ALOT of technical details about Fleet boats. I felt confident in being able to walk through one, and identify by sight, what 90% of the things onboard. (years later i proved this to myself when i visted the USS Drum).

Such was my passion as a kid, that, i played "Silent Service" on the old 8 bit nintendo with graph paper, a ruler, compass, and protractor. The "real" game to me, was getting it all plotted out on paper.

Sometime, later, after i got over my Doom kick, i discovered Aces of the Deep. Disappointed it was these uboats, which at the time i knew nothing about, but it was a new sub sim none the less, and i played the hell out of it because it gave a more immersive enviorment at that level of tech.

When SIilent Hunter 1 arrived, i dropped AOD like a brick. Unfortunatlyl, as much as i still loved fleet boats, Sh1 just didnt grab me. It, compared to AOD, was too cut and dry, and it was buggy. I didn't play it all that much. I think i was burnt out from AOD. So, i kept faithfully buying the "patrol disks" but never really played that much, and i couldnt force myself to go back to AOD. In the end, i just moved on to other games and gave it a rest.

When SH2 arrived, i passed. More uboats, and i just wasnt ready to get back into sub simming yet.

When Sh3 arrived, i looked at the box, and was dissappointed. Uboats yet again! What ever happened to my beloved Gato? I couldnt "get" why game makers kept making uboat sims with such fantastic tales to relive in the pacifc. However at this time i was ready to get back into sub sims, and i picked up SH3 with the thoguht, "well, its better then nothing i guess".

So for years i played Sh3, and made the most of it. Anyone who knows me from this community knows i ALWAYS played ini type 9's. Or was always ranging to the furthers areas. Why? Because it was the closest experience id get to being in a fleet submarine. I tried type 7's and they never "grabbed ". Always was my urge to go to far off lands - just like a fleet boat.

So finally here comes SH4. FINALLY! From The book "Submarine" to my sh3 patrols, this is what ive REALLY been looking for. I've endured uboats for years, but always in want of my "true love" in subs. What got me into subs to begin with. Tales from the pacific. So i have alot of vested interest in this game. Its been 12 years since the last time a sub sim has been in the pacfic (SH 1) - TWELVE YEARS! In all that time, its been, uboat, uboat, and uboat. Ive waited 12 years for this game - arguably longer, so imagine my feelings when i fire up the game, and see a Uboat adorning the loading screen.

I think all of this, has probably been the true driving force behind why ive kept modding, and why i have such an extreme stance with the game. I dont expect people to approve of my attitude about this topic, but it would be nice if people understood where im coming from with it.

[kylesplanet]

Amen Ducimus. That is what I've been saying, only I don't write as well. I've not been playing near as long but I bought the game for Fleetboats, not U-Boats.

BTW, Great to see you back.:yep:

[Triad773]

Hey Ducimus thanks for the background on the U-boats thing. I have not been around very long and it helped me to get a handle on the background. Yeah I know the fascination of playing the baddy. I'd been to see the U-505 a number of times as a tadpole. Crampt quarters to say the least. I also understand the saga and demise of the (what turned out to be) unsuccessful U-boat campaign is well known, where as the more successful US campaign of fleetboats was slower in coming out, since it was from the winning side (not dissing U-boats here at all: history is written by the victors).

LukeFF was nice enough to post a link to the story of the Indian Ocean U-boats. Really interesting stuff, but I'm not near finished exploring fleet boats yet. The attrition rates on those boats is pretty high, but considering the distance they were travelling I guess that increases the chances of things happening. Some time I certainly will, but not very soon. The book you mentioned I will be seeing about at my local library some time soon though.

Ducimus thanks for sharing your passion with the community. N00bs like me really appreciate it.

Triad

[MONOLITH]

Like Dan says, there's room in that virtual ocean for all of us; whichever boat you like.

I like the fact that on Saturday morning I can raid Scapa Flow with a Uboat in the beautiful SH4 engine (Because there will be a north Atlantic campaign soon); and Sunday morning I can motor out of Pearl Harbor under a US flag heading to raise some hell in the Sea of Japan.

I'm okay with the best of both worlds.

I just want a great sub sim, and I think we have one.


Keep your chin up Dan.


Cheers all.

[theluckyone17]

I'm holding the "both sides will continue on" flag. I think we're divided into three groups: Diehard Atlantic fans, diehard Pacific fans, and those who pick the side de jour.

I used to be in the atlantic campground. Now that SH4 has had a chance to mature... I'm thinking I'm gonna stick to the Pacific. I'm comfortable with whatever the rest of y'all do, as long as the Pacific doesn't get neglected. And judging from the concern we've seen, and comments from some of the modders (*cough*Duci*cough*), I doubt the Pacific will get neglected.

There is one possible benefit that nobody has pointed out yet, I believe (feel free to correct me, so I can give credit where credit's due.

Prior to the SH4 add-on, anybody in the Atlantic camp had to stick to SH3... so any improvements/mods being created had to be in SH3. The Pacific guys were obviously working on SH4. While some basic concepts still apply to both SHs when modding, there's obviously quite a bit of difference, too.

Now that the add-on's released, we don't have that situation any more. The Atlantic guys can do their thing, the Pacific guys can do theirs, too... but now they're working in the same engine. If the Pacific guys find a better way of doing something, the Atlantic guys can benefit from it. Vice versa applies, too.

Assuming the two groups don't pull some four year old politickin', draw a line in the middle of the sandbox, and refuse to play with each other. I'm rather hoping we're above that stage of our lives, however.

[Triad773]

I'm holding the "both sides will continue on" flag.

Ultimately, I could not agree more. I felt fortunate that there is such a sim that explores the lesser known exploits of the US in the Pacific. Likewise with Ubi's choice of the Indian Ocean campaign with the Germans, it mirrors IL-2's habit of going for the lesser known theatres. That also I appreciate.

[clayton]

Like Dan says, there's room in that virtual ocean for all of us; whichever boat you like.

I like the fact that on Saturday morning I can raid Scapa Flow with a Uboat in the beautiful SH4 engine (Because there will be a north Atlantic campaign soon); and Sunday morning I can motor out of Pearl Harbor under a US flag heading to raise some hell in the Sea of Japan.

I'm okay with the best of both worlds.

I just want a great sub sim, and I think we have one.


Keep your chin up Dan.


Cheers all.

A North Atlantic campaign soon? Really?

Who's making it?

[clayton]

For those who don't understand the Fleetboat vs Uboat thing, I offer this perspective:

Sometime when i was a kid, i picked up the book "Submarine!" by Edward Beach. I read the stories, and something inside me was hooked. I then started reading up on more books. It was like reading and adventure story, only it was true.

I wasn't even a teenager yet, and i knew ALOT of technical details about Fleet boats. I felt confident in being able to walk through one, and identify by sight, what 90% of the things onboard. (years later i proved this to myself when i visted the USS Drum).

Such was my passion as a kid, that, i played "Silent Service" on the old 8 bit nintendo with graph paper, a ruler, compass, and protractor. The "real" game to me, was getting it all plotted out on paper.

Sometime, later, after i got over my Doom kick, i discovered Aces of the Deep. Disappointed it was these uboats, which at the time i knew nothing about, but it was a new sub sim none the less, and i played the hell out of it because it gave a more immersive enviorment at that level of tech.

When SIilent Hunter 1 arrived, i dropped AOD like a brick. Unfortunatlyl, as much as i still loved fleet boats, Sh1 just didnt grab me. It, compared to AOD, was too cut and dry, and it was buggy. I didn't play it all that much. I think i was burnt out from AOD. So, i kept faithfully buying the "patrol disks" but never really played that much, and i couldnt force myself to go back to AOD. In the end, i just moved on to other games and gave it a rest.

When SH2 arrived, i passed. More uboats, and i just wasnt ready to get back into sub simming yet.

When Sh3 arrived, i looked at the box, and was dissappointed. Uboats yet again! What ever happened to my beloved Gato? I couldnt "get" why game makers kept making uboat sims with such fantastic tales to relive in the pacifc. However at this time i was ready to get back into sub sims, and i picked up SH3 with the thoguht, "well, its better then nothing i guess".

So for years i played Sh3, and made the most of it. Anyone who knows me from this community knows i ALWAYS played ini type 9's. Or was always ranging to the furthers areas. Why? Because it was the closest experience id get to being in a fleet submarine. I tried type 7's and they never "grabbed ". Always was my urge to go to far off lands - just like a fleet boat.

So finally here comes SH4. FINALLY! From The book "Submarine" to my sh3 patrols, this is what ive REALLY been looking for. I've endured uboats for years, but always in want of my "true love" in subs. What got me into subs to begin with. Tales from the pacific. So i have alot of vested interest in this game. Its been 12 years since the last time a sub sim has been in the pacfic (SH 1) - TWELVE YEARS! In all that time, its been, uboat, uboat, and uboat. Ive waited 12 years for this game - arguably longer, so imagine my feelings when i fire up the game, and see a Uboat adorning the loading screen.

I think all of this, has probably been the true driving force behind why ive kept modding, and why i have such an extreme stance with the game. I dont expect people to approve of my attitude about this topic, but it would be nice if people understood where im coming from with it.

It's like a virus, isn't it? LOL

[AkbarGulag]

The Atlantic guys can do their thing, the Pacific guys can do theirs, too... but now they're working in the same engine. If the Pacific guys find a better way of doing something, the Atlantic guys can benefit from it. Vice versa applies, too.

Assuming the two groups don't pull some four year old politickin', draw a line in the middle of the sandbox, and refuse to play with each other. I'm rather hoping we're above that stage of our lives, however.
The SH4 engine modders have been fairly 'open source' for some time. Do a search in the modders thread for [TEC] and you will see what I mean. Until one month ago all I could do was play with mini-tweaker files and crete some basic tools. After deciding to make a mod, with donut's assistance, we compiled the complete how-to from all the information in that thread for the task we had set ourselves and every file we needed to touch was known before we started. Sure, it took two weeks to gather it from various threads, but it proves how much is there. Sure we needed a little help on the odd occasion, but the help is there also.

I had heard discussion before of how some modders fear a 'mod soup', I say bull to that, the more modders discuss, the better we all get and the more seamless our mods will become. Why do people form teams to do large projects, thats right.

So in relation to your hopes Luckyone, it is already a reality to a large extent. And i'm sure I speak for many modders here, when I say it would be great if it only got better.

[Thunder]

American Subs, German Subs? Modding American? Modding German. Last time there was co-operation we landed on the moon. Only good can come of this… and to the devs... thank you. Loving it.

[Ducimus]

The Atlantic guys can do their thing, the Pacific guys can do theirs, too... but now they're working in the same engine. If the Pacific guys find a better way of doing something, the Atlantic guys can benefit from it. Vice versa applies, too.

Assuming the two groups don't pull some four year old politickin', draw a line in the middle of the sandbox, and refuse to play with each other. I'm rather hoping we're above that stage of our lives, however.
The SH4 engine modders have been fairly 'open source' for some time. Do a search in the modders thread for [TEC] and you will see what I mean. Until one month ago all I could do was play with mini-tweaker files and crete some basic tools. After deciding to make a mod, with donut's assistance, we compiled the complete how-to from all the information in that thread for the task we had set ourselves and every file we needed to touch was known before we started. Sure, it took two weeks to gather it from various threads, but it proves how much is there. Sure we needed a little help on the odd occasion, but the help is there also.

I had heard discussion before of how some modders fear a 'mod soup', I say bull to that, the more modders discuss, the better we all get and the more seamless our mods will become. Why do people form teams to do large projects, thats right.

So in relation to your hopes Luckyone, it is already a reality to a large extent. And i'm sure I speak for many modders here, when I say it would be great if it only got better.

Reading between the lines a little here. The rub is the social enviorment differences in the Sh4 and Sh3 mod forums, which tend to be opposites of each other. One is open source, the other is proprietary and keeps things close to the chest. Personnaly i got better things to worry about these days.

[danlisa]

Reading between the lines a little here. The rub is the social enviorment differences in the Sh4 and Sh3 mod forums, which tend to be opposites of each other. One is open source, the other is proprietary and keeps things close to the chest. Personally i got better things to worry about these days.
You know as well as the rest of us that were around for the release of SH3 that SH4 modding & development is exactly where SH3 was at the same point after release. You can still go back through the archives and see mod discussion & values/result sharing from the outset of SH3.

Now, the fundamental change in SH3 came about with the advent of the first 'SuperMods' RuB & IUB where, if every file change or advancement was discussed/openly shared in the community, the authors would spend 100% of their time in User Support mode.

Fast forward nearly 2 years and you find GWX at the forefront, however even this mod is subject to the same restrictions in terms of 'openness' of file changes etc. You can imagine what it would be like to explain Hex changes, Dat Nodes etc to anyone that will listen. Hell, some users can't even manage a clean installation.:lol:

I will say this openly, give SH4 time to develop as it is now but eventually a 'Supermod' will come along with a multitude of file changes that by any stretch of the imagination cannot validate/explain/share all the changes and how they were done. It's natural evolution. It's happened before, it will happen again.

Oh, and FYI, SH3 & SH4 are both 'Open Source' with the tools currently available. Users just need to do their homework.:yep: Anything a prospective modder could need or want is somewhere on the Subsim Forums.

[theluckyone17]

Now, the fundamental change in SH3 came about with the advent of the first 'SuperMods' RuB & IUB where, if every file change or advancement was discussed/openly shared in the community, the authors would spend 100% of their time in User Support mode.
Isn't the whole point of a supermod to alleviate this problem? Install, patch, slap the mod in, and you're good to go?

The problem we're probably running across is when someone wants to tweak the supermod... "Gee, I installed this super mod, then I installed this mod, and then that mod" and that's when things break, users get irritated (and high & mighty, I deal with the general public and their interactions with computers, lemme tell ya... high & mighty doesn't describe it sometimes), and that gets the modder's feather fluffed up.

The only way I see beating this tendency is to know it, and avoid it. Yeah, modders are busy... but the rest of us experienced folk (maybe not us... you experienced folk?) on the forums can probably handle basic file comparisons, seeing what mods overwrite what... maybe we need a few folks to volunteer to help sort out mod conflicts, and document what's what.

Does that sound at all realistic, reasonable, and likely to work?

[skwasjer]

I will say this openly, give SH4 time to develop as it is now but eventually a 'Supermod' will come along with a multitude of file changes that by any stretch of the imagination cannot validate/explain/share all the changes and how they were done. It's natural evolution. It's happened before, it will happen again.
Well, yes and no. There are already a couple of big SH4-mods (aka hundreds of files and hundreds of MB's), yet they are actively and openly developed. I see that at some point a mod may grow so large parts of the discussion will move behind closed doors. Makes perfect sense to me. However, you don't have to keep a lid on everything, test everything in private for a year, etc., while in the process profit from knowledge that others gain and share in public.
If a group of modders does it this way (it happens all the time even by a team as small as 2 modders), that's ok, but I'm just saying you don't 'have' to.

I agree there's no point in documenting every single change made for a mod. However, what would be great is if certain new discovered technologies/tricks/hacks are documented/discussed, during or even after they have been implemented/released. This can be seperate from the mod itself in dedicated [TEC] type threads or tutorials. This way there's no need for others to reinvent it. And while such documentation may not be understood by everyone, there's always a few that will.

In all truth I had a real hard time developing S3D in the first 6 months, for the lack of public documentation of the file formats (after 2+ years SH3?!), and most public threads that did exist where incomplete, or partially incorrect. So I had to debug most of it myself.

A good example is just a couple of days ago where privateer offered me the specs of animation data. In the end sharing is the only way forward. :up:

Back on topic, I can appreciate the addon for what it offers us. New features and choice. How the pacific will be pushed aside I don't see. People that enjoyed the pacific played SH4, those that enjoyed uboats played SH3. This will change to: people that enjoy the pacific play SH4_1.4/1.5 US campaign/mods, and people that enjoy uboats play SH3/SH4_1.5 uboat campaign/mods (and of course the group that plays both). All the same to me...

[danlisa]

@ skwasjer

I agree (in principle), however with large supermods, closed beta testing is the only sensible way to conduct development. With closed testing, the testers can be hand picked for their personal understanding of how the (SH3/SH4) game works. For example, what good is a tester that flags every stock bug up to the devs because he/she does not know what is fixable/unfixable. I, for one, would not like to keep track of numerous threads and hundreds/thousands of user reports.

If you like, you could compare GWX 2.0 to an open BETA test as the current development of 2.1 is incorporating user identified issues as well as containing new content. Until the Dev crew feels their work is ready for the public, it's much easier to contain the discovered issues on a private forum and within a small testing crew.

Now, having said that, your editing tool is revolutionary in the history of the SH series and as such, the issues you have encountered have only been touched upon briefly in the past. So I can understand the frustration you must have encountered during development. As far as I can tell, your tool (most basic analogy) combines all the required tools (Pack3d, Hex Edit, Text Extract & MiniTweaker) for file adjustments that 'joe' user could possibly need, effectively making every user a possible modder with a minimal knowledge requirement of what does what.

As for sharing discovered knowledge, I feel that this happens, however, there are only a few modders in the SH3 field who are still pushing the boundarys of what's possible and they choose to do this via PM or email, rather than dumbfounding the rest of us dummies with the details.:lol:

Isn't the whole point of a supermod to alleviate this problem? Install, patch, slap the mod in, and you're good to go?
You know, that's pretty spot on. The ultimate goal of any supermod should be to make the game appealable to everyone without the need for additional added mods. I remember when I first arrived here looking for improvements to SH3. I went away with 50+ mods enabled in my basic install via JSGME and questions about will A work with B, or if I add D, will A still work. Modders & Users nightmare.

I guess guys, time will tell.

[swdw]

Can I throw in a view on here. I understand your 'Defense" of the GWX team danlisa, but doesn't the fact you have to defend them point out a problem.

Fast forward to the RFB team. Because of the structure on subsim, you are correct. it makes communicating and discussing a bit difficult.

So we set up a way to exchange info external to subsim, but there's the biggest difference. I set up an external forum for RFB. Anyone can drop in at anytime and read what's going on. Anyone can join and contribute. GWX's appraoch locks out those that are interested in following what's going on.

Link to forum:
http://forum.kickinbak.com (http://forum.kickinbak.com/)

Ducimus breaks out small mods from TM that are fixes or enhancements for those not wanting a super mod for one fix and makes them available to everyone. So do we (RFB). If someone wants to take what we've developed and tweak it, they are more than welcome to. That's why you'll find a "Trigger Maru with training wheels" on the ubisoft forum. Dgrayson took TM and made it more playable for his grandson and posted the altered mod. I doubt very much GWX would be so open to such fiddling with their super mod. Tater has pieces or entire rollins of his mods in almost every big mod for SH4 and has been nothing but helpful in those efforts. Anyone willing can combine the big mods into a super mod and post one with a "flavor" that matches their likes and dislikes.

The SH4 modding community works on compatibility between mods, and will often release 3 or 4 versions of the same big mod allowing users to create their own super mod

Being one of the modders in SH4, and having spent a few months, I definitely see a difference. Heck Ducimus has what some people might call a "competing" mod to RFB and we've both used pieces of each other's mods with not only the other persons permission, but even with their help. Not only that, he's encouraged me, and I keep pestering him to continue with TM. Some of the most experienced modders here have been nothing but encouraging when I picked up RFB. They let me use their mini-mods with their blessing and would explain things patiently when I asked about the "why" behind some of their changes.

A couple of very experienced modders joined to help with RFB because I'm still WAY behind them in my knowledge of the game structure and modding. Yet they are patient , helpful, and I could not have created the changes they have implemented for RFB (LukeFF is the prime example in this for RFB).

You say its the same? Then have GWX make their tools available to the community like skwasjer did. have them take new modders under their wings who are trying to make changes to some of the stuff in GWX with encouragement from the GWX team, and then you'll start to come close to the open approach the SH4 modders take.

[tater]

Modding is about lateral thinking in many cases since we only have limited access to the code. As a result, we have to think outside the box oftentimes to get a desired effect.

Sometimes innovative ideas come from folks who DON'T understand what's been done, and what is possible/impossible. Having the tools out there is only a good thing, nothing bad can possibly come from it, IMO.

Some modding is driven just by personal interest. A certain part of the sim might be seen as "good enough" and remain untouched by the modding "establishment" on the boards (doesn't get talked about in the forums, more important fish to fry, whatever). A noob might have that little part of the sim as his pet peeve. If he had the tools, he'd just dive in and mess around. In doing so, he might discover something unknown to even the old salts.

When S3D becomes even more capable, it will be a golden age of SH4 modding I think. It's already massively democratized modding, IMO. There are many things I'd not have done without S3D. There are things I want to do that it doesn't do yet. Sure, I could start messing with hex, but you know what, I have a life. If it takes XXX hours of learning curve for me to be skilled with hex, then another YY hours to do what I want, I'll just work on something else (like new maps for Il-2 ;) ), and when S3D does it I can concentrate on making new content, not learning hex editing.

Also, for the sake of the noobs, seeing the process really helps. When I started I found threads talking about mods, but the ones that really helped had the details. Not just what files, but WHY that particular value mattered, how the sim dealt with it. [TEC] threads are a good thing. My campaign mod was done for myself as a learning experience. Lurker went to the next level. Our campaigns are "in competition" I guess. Meh, who cares, we've talked a lot, I have stuff from him, he has stuff from me. If everyone prefers his campaign, so what? We all win by having a better campaign to play with (the fact that I am no longer inundated with questions is not lost on me, either, that's the downside of having a popular mod. I like the quiet. ;) )


<S>

tater

[Ducimus]

Now, the fundamental change in SH3 came about with the advent of the first 'SuperMods' RuB & IUB where, if every file change or advancement was discussed/openly shared in the community, the authors would spend 100% of their time in User Support mode.

While i agree user support is a PITA, there is such a thing as an FAQ (not that it helps much, but hey, it gives you an excuse to simply ignore various questions) . So, I'm sorry, but i just do not believe the part ive but in italics. What your neglecting to say is how the mod forum there developed into two poltical camps based on personality and end goals.

Information was kept closely guarded because of the desire to out do the other. It was all one big game of "oneupsmanship" and petty rivalry. I was there, i know, i participated, and not a day goes by where i dont feel ashamed, and is the biggest reason why im free with mod and tec info today. I remember well when DTB was in the hidden GW forums here and the stink the arose after. The worry? "Oh my god he got some of our mod ideas!". Can't exactly blow the rival out of the water when they see what your up to. "Intelliectual rights" and "ethics" became (and still are) big issues there, and everything was (and still is) a closely guarded secret and proprietary.

This, i bleieve, is how the social climate there became what it is today. Its just how it is, i accept that. However,the SH4 modding community for me, was an opportunity for a fresh start, and take lessons learned from the past and try and forge a better mod community for tommrow - i hope others can take a similar view. I dont think anyone wants to see "mod warish" behavior here. It only stiffens creativity, and drives creative minds away.

[skwasjer]

@ skwasjer

I agree (in principle), however with large supermods, closed beta testing is the only sensible way to conduct development. With closed testing, the testers can be hand picked for their personal understanding of how the (SH3/SH4) game works. For example, what good is a tester that flags every stock bug up to the devs because he/she does not know what is fixable/unfixable. I, for one, would not like to keep track of numerous threads and hundreds/thousands of user reports.

If you like, you could compare GWX 2.0 to an open BETA test as the current development of 2.1 is incorporating user identified issues as well as containing new content. Until the Dev crew feels their work is ready for the public, it's much easier to contain the discovered issues on a private forum and within a small testing crew.
I understand, and as said, this is perfectly fine with me. I may not have phrased it correctly, nor was I really pointing to GWX. While I quoted you both in my last as well as this post, it's really just a general observation and not aimed at you or anyone in particular. I'm also not talking about protecting the regular users from technical blabla. The blacker the box for them, the better. ;) I'm really referring to the people that are less advanced or new into modding, however keen to learn.

As far as S3D, it surely makes modding more accessible, but without knowledge of the game mechanics, you still have a steep curve to walk and one can potentially screw up the game files easier than before (where people would need to get a hex editor first, they'd simply give up here). But at least people now can try.

Imo, those that know ALOT sortof have the obligation to tutor those that don't, and use some of their (precious) time to write up what they know. I personally feel we don't see enough of this. My attempt to tutor is to make a user friendly tool. In fact, more work has gone into the UI than into the actual core engine that reads/writes the game files. I want to take new modders by the hand with S3D and make it as easy as possible so they can start modding in weeks instead of months/years, and take average/experienced modders also by the hand so they can focus on making new game content instead of learning every byte in a binary file, need to rewrite tweakfiles, hexscan a file for its contents (which could litteraly take hours per file) etc... This age of modding is behind us (well, almost anyway ^^).

Experienced modders (not mod teams) need to step up and help others out by putting more effort into sharing what they know, instead of keeping a lid on it or help someone out in private. It's what the mod forums are for!

I've been member of other (game) mod communities before (and did similar things as I do for SH), and subsim modding in comparison is near the top of my list of succesful communities as far as released mods (which says alot about the flexibility of the game engine), but as far as the number of technical discussions and available tutorials that breaks down game essentials/mechanics it is really all the way down at the bottom.

bleh, another long post :rotfl:

[Ducimus]

Experienced modders (not mod teams) need to step up and help others out by putting more effort into sharing what they know, instead of keeping a lid on it or help someone out in private. It's what the mod forums are for!


I admit, i am lazy. It's easier when people ask specific questions. I always try to help when asked something specific, but i admit, writing up [tec] posts is something im usually too lazy to do. (its more like, "Good god, where do i start in writing this?")


As an aside, its not my desire to pick a fight or be at odds with ANYONE. Frankly im amazed i can still post on this forum at all.

[elanaiba]

Lets stop this at this point, shall we?

My intention was to let people (not specifically one side or the other, since their guilty parties everywhere so to speak) reflect a little bit at their attitude and think if there's something that needs changing/adjusting.

[danlisa]

Lets stop this at this point, shall we?

Ok then.:up:

However, I would like the opportunity (having missed the chance to reply due to time zones) to say, this was never an attempt to say one team does it right and another does not. Far from it. I needed to pick examples and I used what I knew most about, in no way am I single minded in that vain. Each to their own and at the end of the day, the community benefits.

It's a shame that this should end because, in this instance, the discussion was mature and well presented.:up:

[Major Johnson]

It's a shame that this should end because, in this instance, the discussion was mature and well presented.:up:

I just read the whole thread!! Enjoyed it immensely from a humanistic viewpoint! Maybe there's hope for the world yet!

From a technical viewpoint, I don't know what the hell they were talking about!! :o
:rotfl:

But I will say this, I peruse a number of forums, and this one has the most intelligent content by far!! :know: