What was Spains role in WW2?

[The_Blockade_Runner]

I know they were declared neutral. But thats about all Ive ever heard about them in ww2. From my understanding It was Germany who helped establish a Fascist (sp?) government there in the early 30's. They say many German Luftwaffe piolts got their first battle experience in Spain.

So why did't Spain join Germany and Italy? I know in the game GWX 2.0 you have supply ships in Spain. Why did Spain let the British have the port of Gibraltar? What if instead of invading Russia, If Germany had kept pushing West past France and into Spain to take Gilbraltar from Land and seal off the Mediterrian (sp?) And then new routes to North Africa could be made.

I don't know, thats just me. Should make an interesting discussion

[Hitman]

From my understanding It was Germany who helped establish a Fascist (sp?) government there in the early 30's

Yes, when the spanish civil war started in 1936, many nations played in the background more or less. Germany and Italy provided material -tanks, aircraft- and some troops in certain ocasions to the fascist side. In turn, the republicans received some help from the USSR, though much worser material (Polikarpov aircrafts and such). At the same time, some german U-Boots conducted neutrality patrols in the coasts -in fact they even made some attacks, never admitted then-.

They say many German Luftwaffe piolts got their first battle experience in Spain

Correct. If you have ever seen the famous "Guernica" by Picasso, it is meant to represent the suffering during the bombing -to annihilation- of that basque town, and if I remember correctly it was an squadron of Focke Wulfs who did it.

So why did't Spain join Germany and Italy?

There are lots of versions about that.

Some say Franco didn't want to get involved in a war while the country was still destroyed (Our civil war ended in 1939, short before WW2 started). Others say he didn't get what he wanted from Hitler and thus stayed neutral to put pressure on him. I readed long ago reports of plans by Hitler to invade Spain with some Panzer divisions that never happened, but were considered and planned.

Pick your choice. IMHO probably there is a bit from all reasons on it.

Anyway, an army of spanish volunteers was sent "The blue division" to fight against communism in 1941, when Hitler decided to attack the USSR. An uncle of mine went there as medical officer and another relative as lieutenant. Both survived but remembered with terror the coldness of Russia :p

Why did Spain let the British have the port of Gibraltar?

:rotfl:

Are you joking??? Not even when we still were a superpower could we get it back! So go figure what we could have done in 1939, with our country devastated by a civil war, and the british army & navy increasing by the minute from its already "superpower" status to "enraged superpower" status.

What if instead of invading Russia, If Germany had kept pushing West past France and into Spain to take Gilbraltar from Land and seal off the Mediterrian (sp?) And then new routes to North Africa could be made.


What ifs are nice, but its only speculation. Many people think that starting the war with the URRS was Hitler's main error. Others say that Stalin would then have attacked first, making the problem bigger for germany.

I am more inclined to align with the first option, but again it's speculating. reading Churchill's memoirs, you see how different things looked by then, with a victorious germany rolling over europe, an isolated Britain resisting and a neutral US.

Hope thsi answers your questions a bit :up:

[Brag]

The supply ships were suposedly interned German vessels sitting out the war. The supply of U-boats was done discreetely and at night.

Not too long ago someone posted a report from the Spanish Navy to Franco stating the reasons why Spain should stay out of the war.

[harzfeld]

If Hitler didn't attack Poland or neighbor countries, but waited until after Russia attacked Poland, then Hitler attack Russia, would that brings UK, France, and other countries to support German war with Russia? Once German have taken over Russia, would Hitler have entire Red Army at his side? We can image what will happen then.

[Torplexed]

On 23rd October 1940 there was a meeting between Hitler and Franco at Hendaye on the Franco-Spanish border to fix the details of an alliance. By this point in the war, the advantages had become less clear for either side. Franco asked too much from Hitler, including heavy fortifications of the Canary Islands, large quantities of armed vehicles and aircraft. To this Hitler threatened Franco with a possible annexation of Spanish territory to the Vichy France. At the end of the day there was no agreement, and later Hitler would tell Mussolini his famous quote; "I prefer to have three or four of my teeth pulled out than to speak to that man again".

In December, Hitler returned to the issue of Gibraltar. He attempted to force Franco's hand with a blunt request for the passage of German troops to attack Gibraltar. Franco refused, citing the danger that Britain still presented to Spanish colonies and choosing to wait until Britain "was on the point of collapse". Hitler got tougher and offered grain and military supplies as an inducement. By this time, however, Italian troops were being chased from Cyrenaica in Libya and the Royal Navy had continued to show its freedom of action in Italian waters. Britain was clearly not finished. Franco responded "that the fact has left the circumstances of October far behind" and "the Protocol then agreed must now be considered outmoded".

Gotta give Franco credit in this regard. He saw what was coming.

[The_Blockade_Runner]

Thanks for the responses guys, very interesting and informatative. It never gets old for me to keep learning about these important events that happened in the Worlds history.

[msalama]

...and if I remember correctly it was an squadron of Focke Wulfs who did it.

It was actually a mixed squadron of Ju-52s, He-111s, Do-17s and some Italian types IIRC.

The FW-200, nicknamed "Condor", first flew in July 1937, i.e. some 3 months after the Guernica operation, and the world-famous fighter FW-190 a.k.a. the Butcher Bird (which BTW was successfully used as a Jabo, i.e. a jaeger-bomber, later on too) in June 1939.

This just FYI, i.e. not trying to flame you or anything mind :yep:

[Hitman]

It was actually a mixed squadron of Ju-52s, He-111s, Do-17s and some Italian types IIRC.

The FW-200, nicknamed "Condor", first flew in July 1937, i.e. some 3 months after the Guernica operation, and the world-famous fighter FW-190 a.k.a. the Butcher Bird (which BTW was successfully used as a Jabo, i.e. a jaeger-bomber, later on too) in June 1939.

This just FYI, i.e. not trying to flame you or anything mind :yep:

Aye, thanks :up: Was not sure about that part, as I already stated :hmm:

[Jimbuna]

If you scroll down this link to 14th May you will see a short report of the ship (Euphorbia) my father was serving aboard when it was bombed in Barcelona harbour:

http://lacucaracha.info/scw/diary/1938/may/index.htm

[Captain Nemo]

If Hitler didn't attack Poland or neighbor countries, but waited until after Russia attacked Poland, then Hitler attack Russia, would that brings UK, France, and other countries to support German war with Russia? Once German have taken over Russia, would Hitler have entire Red Army at his side? We can image what will happen then.

An interesting point. Early on Hitler did have hopes of Britain joining Germany in a war against the Soviet Union. Hitler was right that Churchill viewed the USSR as an enemy and in fact Churchill's plans to invade Norway also included helping Finland fight the USSR. If this had come about, Britain would have been fighting on two fronts, the Germans on one hand and the Soviets on the other. A scenario that could have led to Britains defeat or an eventual uneasy alliance with Germany.

After victory in Europe again Churchill viewed the USSR as the next enemy, but war in the far east was still raging and frankly if he had suggested taking on the USSR at that time the poeple of Britain would have probably lynched him, they had had enough.

Nemo

[Klaus_Doldinger]

I know they were declared neutral. But thats about all Ive ever heard about them in ww2. From my understanding It was Germany who helped establish a Fascist (sp?) government there in the early 30's. They say many German Luftwaffe piolts got their first battle experience in Spain.

Not exactly in the early 30's. From 1931 Spain became a Republic with different governments: a two year left-sided government from 1931 to 1933; a conservative one from 1933 to 1936 and a Popular Front government from february 1936 till july. In 1936, with the civil war started in july, Germany and Italy decided to support the so-called "nationalist" side. Calling this side "fascist" is quite excessive, as it was a heterogeneous mixture of conservative, catholic, traditionalist (carlistas) and so called spanish fascists (falange), leaded all by a fraction of the Army.

So why did't Spain join Germany and Italy? I know in the game GWX 2.0 you have supply ships in Spain. Why did Spain let the British have the port of Gibraltar? What if instead of invading Russia, If Germany had kept pushing West past France and into Spain to take Gilbraltar from Land and seal off the Mediterrian (sp?) And then new routes to North Africa could be made.

I don't know, thats just me. Should make an interesting discussion

Spain changed its status during the war. Till 1943 it was "non beligerant" (no beligerante), i.e., she did not participate in military operations but offered a certain degree of collaboration with Axis powers. Late in the war Spain declared neutrality as the tide turned against Germany and Italy, even withdrawing the so called "Blue Division" (german 250th Infantry Division) from the St. Petersburg front. (BTW, my father served in this unit for two years, from 1941 to 1943).

Of course, Spain could never have succeeded in an operation against Gibraltar. Even an excessive hostile attitude against Great Britain was discarded as the Navy Minister (Almirante Salvador Moreno, I think) presented to Franco a dossier preventing against Royal Navy retributions against undefended spanish coasts, specially in the Canary Islands.

I hope this helps.

[Schöneboom]

Gracias especialmente to Hitman & Klaus D,

One of the best books I found related to this subject is Heinz Hohne's 703 p. biography of Admiral Wilhelm Canaris. It is packed with details about Canaris' deep involvement in German-Spanish relations going back to WWI, when he worked in both naval intelligence and the U-boat service. The book may be out of print, but good libraries will have it.

Mach's gut!

[joea]

If Hitler didn't attack Poland or neighbor countries, but waited until after Russia attacked Poland, then Hitler attack Russia, would that brings UK, France, and other countries to support German war with Russia? Once German have taken over Russia, would Hitler have entire Red Army at his side? We can image what will happen then.
An interesting point. Early on Hitler did have hopes of Britain joining Germany in a war against the Soviet Union. Hitler was right that Churchill viewed the USSR as an enemy and in fact Churchill's plans to invade Norway also included helping Finland fight the USSR. If this had come about, Britain would have been fighting on two fronts, the Germans on one hand and the Soviets on the other. A scenario that could have led to Britains defeat or an eventual uneasy alliance with Germany.

After victory in Europe again Churchill viewed the USSR as the next enemy, but war in the far east was still raging and frankly if he had suggested taking on the USSR at that time the poeple of Britain would have probably lynched him, they had had enough.

Nemo

Ummmm no. I don't see Hitler not attacking or at least trying to take over Poland and other countries in Eastern Europe. Second waiting for Russia to attack Poland is sheer speculation, why would the Soviets attack Poland and why would Hitler wait? The comment about Hitler having the Red Army at his side is just a bit too silly.

One should not forget that there were some negotiations to try to set up a defensive alliance between the USSR, France and Great Britain (which the Czechs were in favour of) which fell apart with Munich. The other thing is aiding Finland, for emotional reasons, would probably have been a mistake strategically. I am not defending Stalin here, but the USSR's aims were pretty limited in the Winter War, and there was no immediate threat to the UK or France, a threat posed by the Third Reich which was at that time much closer and better prepared for war.

[Captain Nemo]

Ummmm no. I don't see Hitler not attacking or at least trying to take over Poland and other countries in Eastern Europe. Second waiting for Russia to attack Poland is sheer speculation, why would the Soviets attack Poland and why would Hitler wait? The comment about Hitler having the Red Army at his side is just a bit too silly.

One should not forget that there were some negotiations to try to set up a defensive alliance between the USSR, France and Great Britain (which the Czechs were in favour of) which fell apart with Munich. The other thing is aiding Finland, for emotional reasons, would probably have been a mistake strategically. I am not defending Stalin here, but the USSR's aims were pretty limited in the Winter War, and there was no immediate threat to the UK or France, a threat posed by the Third Reich which was at that time much closer and better prepared for war.

The anti-German alliance negotiations you mention were between the USSR, UK, France and Poland in early 1939. The main opposition to such a pact was from Poland because as part of the deal Soviet troops would be able to move freely within Poland, Romania and the Baltic States whenever the USSR felt it's security threatened. The fear was that once the Soviets entered these territories they wouldn't want to leave. Stalin also did not trust that Britain and France would come to it's aid should Germany attack the USSR. In my view Stalin had more or less the same aspirations as Hitler i.e. conquering Eastern Europe. So perhaps harzfeld is not to way off the mark with his view that the USSR would have eventually attacked Poland before Germany. Post war Soviet held territory maybe adds some weight to this argument. Total speculation of course. However, I agree with you that the idea of Nazi troops fighting alongside Soviet troops doesn't bear thinking about.

Nemo

[harzfeld]

well whomever would rather fight for Hitler over Stalin, cuz Nazi had better weapons, food, protections, services, maybe living, etc, and how many men suffer & died under Stalin's rule compare to Hitler? Nazi had more option of backing out than men in Red Army, remember Stalin's "Not one step back" order. Also there were great purge, cleansing, and gulag. So why don't people of soviet and Red Army rather to let Nazi take over Russia than to continue living under Stalin's rule?

[Torplexed]

well whomever would rather fight for Hitler over Stalin, cuz Nazi had better weapons, food, protections, services, maybe living, etc, and how many men suffer & died under Stalin's rule compare to Hitler? Nazi had more option of backing out than men in Red Army, remember Stalin's "Not one step back" order. Also there were great purge, cleansing, and gulag. So why don't people of soviet and Red Army rather to let Nazi take over Russia than to continue living under Stalin's rule?
Hitler considered Slavs racially inferior and accordingly they were treated that way by the German Army by his orders. Russian prisoners by the thousands died in slave labour camps. So as abominable as Stalin was as a leader, Hitler was no better and was a foreign invader to boot. I think Russians fought mainly out of deep patriotism for their nation, not it's communist leaders. Hitler could have exploited the deep resentment between Russians and the various minority nationalities like Ukranians, Balts, etc. But in his arrogance he failed even in this regard.

As for the superiority of German weapons the Germans were shocked to find in 1941 that the Soviet tanks, although poorly handled on a tactical level, were vehicle for vehicle better in terms of mobility, firepower and armour. The vaunted German Tiger and Panther tanks were built in response to the Russian KV-1 and the T-34.