The sub does not seem to ride the waves?

[MarkShot]

I was just doing some mod tuning of SH4. One of which was dive rate mod which makes your sub appear to ride in the water as opposed to on it.

Then, I went back to play some SH3/GWX2. I am currently cruising along in heavy seas of a 15m/sec wind. Here is what I noticed:

(1) SH3 your sub appears to ride with the waves. It rises. It falls. It dips. It pitches up.

(2) SH4 your sub appears to be relatively stable (external view) despite waves are around. The sub stays stable and wave runs over it or the water drops away. Now, of course, using an internal camera/crew/platform camera, your sub does appear to be pitching and rolling, but not externally.

Anyone else feel this way?

[rodan54]

I definately agree with you.

This has probably been one of the main issues I'd like to see fixed with the game. Unfortunately, no mod has really managed to overcome the "flying sub" effect, only alleviate it somewhat.

Personally, it feels as though the sub and the environment are two seperate entities, and as such don't actually affect each other as far as appropriate physics are concerned.

[-Pv-]

My opinion of this difference is in SH3 players complained bitterly about not being able to fire the gun in rough seas. In SH4 you can fire the gun all you want (though in the roughest conditions you'll have to do it manually.) My theory is the devs gave SH4 exagerated stability for the purposes of firing the gun and maybe hitting something once in a while.
-Pv-

[MarkShot]

A very interesting conjecture.

It's somewhat too bad. Despite the improve graphics, SH3 looks realistic within the bounds of the scene complexity rendered. However, SH4 looks artficial despite its improved graphics. First, there is the static (frozen) behavior of the sub. Second, there is the water which exhibits (particularly swells) sharp edges which just doesn't look natural.

Of course, I still play AOD and love it. So, as long as the game play and the AI escorts (meaning the hunt, attack, and the escape) are exciting, then I am quite happy. A few graphic oddities are not going to spoil my fun.

[Wilcke]

I am going on memory here but if you were to dig through the ROW Mod threads you would find a lot of documentation in regard to this "flying boat" effect. Leovampire ran into this problem as he develope Living Breathing Ocean and then Reflections on the Water.


Pantherhercules was also working on this http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=129705 his thread is now buried so I do not know the status of his work. I do not know if this will shed any light on the situation.

Hope it helps.

[capthelm]

looks impressive to me the sub dynamics in the water , maybe a little more water foam though when it sails through the waves..:rock:

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Now you know how I felt with surfing sub. But TM has incorporated Living Breathing Water and no more 'Hanging Ten' with a sub. But yes the sub still seem unaffected by ocean movements.

[MarkShot]

Interesting that Ducimus is discussing exactly this recently at UBI and how he will fix it for TM.

He is convinced that this is tied to wave properties. Also, someone observed that rafts seems to ride the waves so that the behavior is probably not hardcoded but in the data files.

Lastly, what has happened that to cause him to no longer be a member of this community? Clearly, this is a concious decision on his part, but nowhere is there any explanation. (Since this is possibly a sensitive matter ... feel free to PM me with response.)

Thanks.

[Wilcke]

Mark,

This is the only explanation he left; http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=757823#post757823

I see that you found his thread over at Ubi; looks like this is going forward and that is excellent news on many fronts.

As far as making TMO compatible with 1.5 Addon here is his quote;




"I think the BIGGEST difference (and im making a WILD guess here) between RFB and TM will be after the Uboat add on is released. There will be fixes to the base game in the add on most assuredly, and it will require some work to get the mods compatible to the base game post uboat add on. (hypothetically speaking sh4 version 1.5).

Here is where the biggest difference will come into play. Im quite sure RFB will be made compatible with it. TM however, will not be. Unless a copy of the uboat add on magically appears on my doorstep, i will not be getting a copy. How can i make compatible to that which i don't own? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif I suspect that the addon will contain some stuff that will make it irresistable, which will make the majority of users shift away from sh4 ver 1.4. So under that scenario, RFB will be your only choice in the future. "

[MarkShot]

That doesn't explain why he should participate at UBI and not here. Those customers are just as likely to abandon SH3 1.4b and SH4 1.4 as those here.

Well, I will run whatever version of the game plays well. From past experience, UBI/developers are unable to make a subsim to for the hardcore niche that is worth the investment of time without a minimum of 1-2 years of modding work.

Which leads me to say that SH3/GWX2 is probably at its zenith and it looks like SH4 from what I seen so far could do with another year of point mods and total mods to realize its maximum potential.

I don't expect too much of the add-on out of the box. I think if not for the modders, I would simply pass on SH3/SH4 and simply stick with AOD and SHCE. The game play is all there already.

[dcb]

I found that the best solution to get rid of the flying sub was provided by Jace11 here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=527301&postcount=53

i.e. to change LargeWaveCoeff from 1 to 0 in all wave states from the scene.dat file. With LargeWaveCoeff=0 the sub rides the wave rather nicely.

[MarkShot]

What do you use to edit the scene.dat? Thanks.

[Wilcke]

That doesn't explain why he should participate at UBI and not here. Those customers are just as likely to abandon SH3 1.4b and SH4 1.4 as those here.

Well, I will run whatever version of the game plays well. From past experience, UBI/developers are unable to make a subsim to for the hardcore niche that is worth the investment of time without a minimum of 1-2 years of modding work.

Which leads me to say that SH3/GWX2 is probably at its zenith and it looks like SH4 from what I seen so far could do with another year of point mods and total mods to realize its maximum potential.

I don't expect too much of the add-on out of the box. I think if not for the modders, I would simply pass on SH3/SH4 and simply stick with AOD and SHCE. The game play is all there already.

Good question Mark!

The rest of your points are right on target. I am curious to see what 1.5 Addon addresses in any relevant game fixes/issues that where on the Devs short list...if any...speculation on my part. I will fork over the cash and setup a third install...why not.

For editing scene.dat, look for S3D by skwasjer I believe it can handle all types of files from SH4. No more MiniTweaker or Hex Editing needed.

[swdw]

The ability to ride up and down a wave is dependent upon:
1. The wave height
2. the trough width
3. The angle and length of the face of the wave
4. the wave frequency
5. Ship length
6. Ship Bouyancy /CG

Currently in both Silent hunters the width of the trough is ALWAYS too short to allow for the dynamic people want. So you wind up with flying ships or ships cutting through the waves. In reality a long gentle swell can, at times, cause more pitching that shorter high peaked waves (what the SH series has).

For the size and relationship of the variables listed, the dive rate mod actually gives you the correct action. (Backed up by an ex Balao/Guppy class sailor that's tested it- but few people listen tho him for some reason.
Quote 399nkov
"In Heavy seas, Props stay submerged, water over the bridge, (If water went over the sail, main induction would close causing the engines to suck all the air out of the boat) not too much roll when underway. Very nice.

Out of Key West we edged on a few hurricanes and that made it bad, the capt'n would head into the waves, which made her roll less, but then the bow pitch became really bad at times. Up and over a wave and thunder down with a loud shudder out of the old girl. (USS Seacat SS399) Waves would drench lookouts. Below decks, the poppet valves a poppin, Main Induction closing, engines sucking air out of the boat and just a note, props broached very few times that I remember in over two years.
Overall the boat didn't roll as much as one would think. They weren't top heavy. Just like nukes, most of her was underwater when on the surface.

In my opinion, this mod re-creates actual movements of a sub underway and will always be installed with my other mods."

It's interesting that the pitch most people are looking for he describes as happening on the edge of a hurricane.

Too many people want a roller coaster rather than a realistic simulation.

The aforementioned relationship of waves and ship type is the reason a large ship can cut through a wave a trawler has to climb up and down. What everyone thinks of as large swells in the SH series may have height, but the other variables are incorrect to allow the boat to ride up and down the wave. Get those correct and the boats will pitch more and do so realistically.

[ReallyDedPoet]

What do you use to edit the scene.dat? Thanks.

You could use the Mini Tweaker or skwasjer's S3D Editor.


RDP

[ElAurens]

For the size and relationship of the variables listed, the dive rate mod actually gives you the correct action. (Backed up by an ex Balao/Guppy class sailor that's tested it- but few people listen tho him for some reason.

Too many people want a roller coaster rather than a realistic simulation.


You have answered your own question sir.

Players don't want reality, they want what they think is reality.

The movie "Das Boot" has made it forever impossible to build an accurate submarine simulation, because everyone thinks that is what reality is.

[-Pv-]

I was disatisfied with the LBO solution myself which did things to the color of the water I didn't like. The solution to making the sub appear to ride deaper in the water was nothing more than limiting the height of the waves, thus the storms are less convincing. I ended up going back to the original. I spend less time looking at my own sub and more time looking at the enemy.
-Pv-

[jdkbph]

Quote 399nkov
"In Heavy seas, Props stay submerged, water over the bridge, (If water went over the sail, main induction would close causing the engines to suck all the air out of the boat) not too much roll when underway. Very nice.

Out of Key West we edged on a few hurricanes and that made it bad, the capt'n would head into the waves, which made her roll less, but then the bow pitch became really bad at times. Up and over a wave and thunder down with a loud shudder out of the old girl. (USS Seacat SS399) Waves would drench lookouts. Below decks, the poppet valves a poppin, Main Induction closing, engines sucking air out of the boat and just a note, props broached very few times that I remember in over two years.
Overall the boat didn't roll as much as one would think. They weren't top heavy. Just like nukes, most of her was underwater when on the surface.

In my opinion, this mod re-creates actual movements of a sub underway and will always be installed with my other mods."

<snip>

Too many people want a roller coaster rather than a realistic simulation.

Precisely. S'what I've been saying... the waves in SH4 look more like shallow water chop (ie, the sum total of what most of us see and experience when we visist the shore) rather than the long deep ocean swells you're likely to encounter during the majority of gameplay (ie, what only those who have been there would see and experience).

Now the reason I phrased it like that - "the majority of gameplay" - is because I'd be surprised if the physics engine that drives the wave action allows for differences in water depth. So I'd guess that whatever it's set to, that's just what you'll get whether you be in-shore or off-shore. The question then, is which extreme would be more appropriate to this game? Or maybe it's something in the middle?

Just a side note... anecdotal but measureable and easily visualized. One of the main considerations that went into HMS Hood's hull design - specifically the minimum hull length required to prevent hogging in normal to heavy seas - was that she would be able to ride a minimum of 3 crests simultaneously and at all times. That would suggest the average distance between Atlantic crests would be something on the order of 250 feet.

Hood, BTW, was 850' at the waterline.

That's reality. What we're getting here is Hollywood.

And I do concur with what another poster suggested RE that's what most people want... and UBI was right to give it to them. But we aren't most people. We're the geeks who obsess over the number of blades on the prop and whether they turn in the right direction. We should be pleased that we're getting the "straight dope" from this real world sub vet, and put it to good use... even if it does contradict our preconceived notions.

JD

[Sailor Steve]

Of course it's Hollywood. Go back three years and read the original blurbs for SH3; they said exactly that.

More realism would be nice.

[Wilcke]

Here is the link to the latest on this development... http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6421019045/m/6401078436/p/3 pretty informative.

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

The problem isn't wave height. It's how the model of the sub reacts to the waves and vice versa. It's just not correct in the physics sense. Anyone using the stock wave movement has either infinite patience or just plumb nuts. I tried that some time ago and eveytime the sub hits a low eveyone in the conning tower goes below thinking we were diving. You might as well stop the boat since most times you're going a few knots. LBO did improve things a bit but I do agree the black water is a bit off. I don't mind the wave heights just how the sub reacts to it.

[jdkbph]

Curious about Ducimus. Did we piss him off or something? If so I missed it.

Just wondering...


JD