"Don't tazer me, bro" has come to the UK

[jumpy]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/7251008.stm

Police use stun gun on youth, 15

A youth court in Dolgellau was told police were left with no alternative as the youth smashed furniture at his Blaenau Ffestiniog home.

So, tazers are an alternative method to lethal force, eh?

The article reads like the device was used as a means of enforcing compliance to a minor who would 'not be reasoned with', rather than being used to subdue a dangerous individual who presented a threat that couldn't be dealt with by a couple or burly chaps and a pair of handcuffs.

Whilst I understand that there may be certain particulars of this case that are not available, I still reject in the strongest terms, the use of tazers as 'human cattle prods' in order to deal with people who represent no lethal threat to themselves and others.
Are they saying that had officers with firearms been present, the situation was serious enough that they would have shot this youth? If so then perhaps the use of said tazer was correct. I believe otherwise.

I cannot help think that there is the potential for a fundamental shift in the relationship between the public and their servants. The use of such a device in any but the most extreme circumstances demonstrates a lack of will on behalf of the authorities to deal with individuals and cases on the basis of anything other than the most expedient means available. I do not believe this is a good thing for anyone concerned.
Fear can be a useful extension to managing people - in these cases the threat of electrocution if you fail to comply - but respect is something which has a foundation in something much more reliable and lasting; trust.
Unfortunately I trust neither the state or its guardians when it comes to matters of my own safety and well-being; and make no mistake, they are the states guardians, not ours.

It would seem that we are to join our colonial brothers and can expect the penalty for refusal of immediate compliance in (for example) a routine traffic stop is to be sent to the floor with 50000 volts, to become an inevitability.

Not a good day for us britons, but in the last 10 years what is?

[sunvalleyslim]

Well Jumpy,
it sounds like you feel the police are abusing the tasers to gain respect. While I believe that happens sometimes, most times it is not.
True, there has to be an escalation and deescalation in the use of any force. Starting with verbalization and ending with lethel force.
You state that some burly chaps with handcuffs should be able to take the person down. Around here I don't see that many "burly chaps". The height requirement on the L.A.P.D. was once a minimum of 5'8". But for the last 30 years there has been no requirement on height. That was so they could recruit women on the job for patrol work. With the threat of lawsuits when you use your fists, feet, baton, chokeholds, or anything else that "looks" bad, then police are going to use other means.
The world would be a great place if everyone could be talked to jail. But that isn't always the case. Police work is not always pretty. And when watching a tazer in action, especially when the suspect has been warned, then you can see it stops whatever action the suspect was engaged in beforehand.
I don't think that you will be on the receiving end of a taser in your lifetime. Unless your a criminal, or are running around looking to antagonize the police.
Remember if you're not doing anything unlawful, show some respect to your police, and do what they say, you're going to be OK. They don't ride around saying "Hey look at that guy lets go taze him."

[Kapitan]

i prefer tazer over real gun, atleast the guy is still standing where as in the past we have seen whats happend when over zealous cops use live weapons and generally kill the suspect, a tazer atleast will only disable them down to the ground they will still be alive after unlike being shot in the chest by an MP5.

Or what about if we take everything bar handcuffs off police? how do they defend themseves if some 20 stone 6ft 6 thug is hurtling at them with a base ball bat? peper spray would normally work but he can still try and hit blind, and ASP would do little but block but then you have to be stronger than your opponent, so a tazer would just make the guy stop in his tracks even if he is tazerd theres little the guy can do with that going through him.

So yes keep the tazer keeps the police safer and it makes people think twice.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Throwing furniture around isnt posing a threat?

[TteFAboB]

He pleaded guilty of affray.

If only the fool knew he was not guilty.

[jumpy]

I don't think it's appropriate to taze a 15 year old kid who is obviously having some kind of tantrum.
I'm sure some of us have done worse and with no police involvement required.

The case that 50000 volts is better than a 9mm round in the chest is an obvious one. But the whole idea (as was sold to us here in the UK) is that it's an alternative to firearms officers using deadly force. What part of this incident meant that an armed response unit had to be called, that the situation with a 15 year old kid could not be resolved by ordinary officers? And perhaps I have overlooked this; when did ordinary plod get to carry these weapons? Previously they were only an option for trained firearms specialists.

Tazers and the like are a symptom of failure. Failure to deal with the problems which underlie many minor offences. They ought to be a proportionate response by trained firearms officers to a situation which requires their unique abilities, not given to any ordinary copper who wants to get the job done quickly so he can mark up a notch on the crime figures or knock off early for a cup of tea.
With their widespread application, you may as well give all police guns too. That way we can all be doubly afraid of them and their tools to make us 'think twice'. That's a dangerous idea - fear of the police. And it only requires a relatively small number of abuses or accidents and the public face of the police force is tarnished and looked at with mistrust.
If we were to do more to address the real problems causing low level violence, drunkenness and general stupidity then maybe we will not continue to walk into a time where there is less and less respect for the authorities in general.
Quite frankly I don't like the idea of living in a country where every ordinary policeman carries a tazer, or a gun for that matter; it points to a greater malaise.

[Jimbuna]

Hmm.....interesting http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/621/thinkbigsw1.gif

Granted, he may or may not have been posing a lethal threat to anyone, but it is not beyond anyones comprehension that situations like this can escalate in a split second without any advance warning.
Standing orders dictate that the youth will have been given reasonable and repeated warning of the consequences of his actions prior to the use of the equipment should his behaviour not cease.
The officers have a duty of care to not only the youth and themselves, but also to life and property in the immediate vicinity.
It has been known for fatalities to occur as a result of blows to the head from much more innocent sounding implements than wooden chair legs.
I'd suggest the eventual outcome was much more favourable than hearing of someone ending up dead or seriously injured.

The bottom line is....he was posing a real and imminent threat to life and or property....he was breaking the law.

[sunvalleyslim]

Jimbuna....(a man of common sense)......:up::up::up:......

[Jimbuna]

Jimbuna....(a man of common sense)......:up::up::up:......

Thank you.....but actually a British Police Officer who would have carried out the same course of action if facing a similar set of circumstances....and having given the youth ample reasonable warnings http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/wolfcop.gif

[bookworm_020]

When we watch the "Cops" program on cable, my wife and I start chanting "Tazer, Tazer, Tazer" every time that someone puts up a struggle! The biggest overkill was seeing a burly (A.K.A. Donut and coffee filled) police officer crash tackle a 65 year old suspect who used a walking frame to move (the guy was a possible drug dealer)

Tazer use here in Australia is limited, only a handful of police (Riot Police, SWAT as so forth) have them, and they have been used less than 20 times in 3 years. There is debate on if regular police should be able to use them, but no decision has been made.

Would Capsicum spray have been a better choice for the youth? I can understand if they used the Tazer if he was swinging a piece of furniture at them or he had cornered an officer. But if they just walked through the door and zapped him then and there it would be excesive.

[STEED]

BAH.......................Arm the Police to the teeth give them Tanks.

WAR ON YOBS

[Jimbuna]

BAH.......................Arm the Police to the teeth give them Tanks.

WAR ON YOBS

Would put an end to the illegal parking problem I suppose ;)

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/7190/policetank300um2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[STEED]

Time to stop farting around and sucking up to yobs.

[jumpy]

^^
I hear where you're coming from STEED, and in the most part agree with you, but I don't think such 'security' should be at the expense of your peace of mind and mine, if you see what I mean.

Perhaps what is illustrated most clearly here is my own lack of confidence in the ability and integrity of our serving police officers to do the job that they are charged with, without resorting to heavy handed and ill conceived measures. And the continuing decline of the standard of education, respect and diligence of the young people of Britain today; all of these exacerbate the problems faced by many without tackling the root cause.

But whatever way I look at it, widespread use of human cattle prods is further demeaning to the standard of society we live in, both from the perspective of those who will use such a device and those who insight its use. As a tool it has its place, but I don't want that place to be at the hip of every serving policeman in the UK.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Perhaps what is illustrated most clearly here is my own lack of confidence in the ability and integrity of our serving police officers to do the job that they are charged with, without resorting to heavy handed and ill conceived measures. And the continuing decline of the standard of education, respect and diligence of the young people of Britain today; all of these exacerbate the problems faced by many without tackling the root cause.

I disagree. I dont believe the officers are the one's to blame, I personally think its the fact that the justice system holds no intimidation factor to these kids, with such pitiful sentences and allowances. You can arrest people for all the things under the sun, but it doesnt automatically mean justice will be done. I'd be suprised if the majority of arrests even went to court.

[dean_acheson]

I disagree. I dont believe the officers are the one's to blame, I personally think its the fact that the justice system holds no intimidation factor to these kids, with such pitiful sentences and allowances. You can arrest people for all the things under the sun, but it doesnt automatically mean justice will be done. I'd be suprised if the majority of arrests even went to court.

Well, some Prosecutors need to get off their duff and realize some things, obviously.

Um, every arrest goes to court, in it's own way. If a charge is filed. But officers can't file charges. At least in the US version of the common law.

[Jimbuna]

The courts based within the justice system in the UK have some of the strongest sentencing powers available to those in the western world.
The real problem is, they do not hand out the tariffs they have within their power to give.

[STEED]

The real problem is, they do not hand out the tariffs they have within their power to give.

And why?

Judges having a chin wag with there political EU masters. ;)

75% of our so called laws are now from the EU Parliament and rising as are own MP's give them more power. :damn:

[Jimbuna]

I've often wondered what would happen to the sentencing system if it was judges and their families who were suddenly targetted by the maniacs in society. What would the attitude be from them if it was them and their families that were being murdered, raped and burgled http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/621/thinkbigsw1.gif

[Kapitan_Phillips]

I've often wondered what would happen to the sentencing system if it was judges and their families who were suddenly targetted by the maniacs in society. What would the attitude be from them if it was them and their families that were being murdered, raped and burgled http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/621/thinkbigsw1.gif

Too true, Jim. We need to stop giving chance after chance to repeat offenders and have the nads to issue no bail sentences when it comes to rape and murder.

[HunterICX]

I've often wondered what would happen to the sentencing system if it was judges and their families who were suddenly targetted by the maniacs in society. What would the attitude be from them if it was them and their families that were being murdered, raped and burgled http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/621/thinkbigsw1.gif

Something I wondered for years, I would like to know their opinion when the rapist who raped their 8 yr old daughter is walking free again.

HunterICX

[mrbeast]

The real problem is, they do not hand out the tariffs they have within their power to give.

And why?

Judges having a chin wag with there political EU masters. ;)

75% of our so called laws are now from the EU Parliament and rising as are own MP's give them more power. :damn:

The EU has nothing to do with what tarrif a judge sets for a sentance. Precident, guidlines on sentancing and the circunstances of the crime are what they consider when setting a sentance.