Engaging Convoy

[peabody]

I need any suggestions for evading (spelling?) detection when attacking a convoy. I am at 165 ft, "rig for silent running"-ON, "All Stop", positioned where I have calculated , with my limited knowledge, where I think they are coming through. And almost every time I get detected before I even do anything. Am I too close? I sit quietly and then get messages on Warship closing fast or something to that effect. So I use the external camera to see what is actually happening, so I can learn what the messages from the sonar are actually telling me and I see destroyers coming directly toward me full speed, not searching just straight line at my position. Next come DC, so I hit Flank and head for the center of the convoy to try to confuse them. Then change direction often, usually toward a destroyer that just DCed where he thought I was, and a lot of times it works, but not always of course.
Here's a funny side note: I was sailing along and suddenly my boat stopped dead in the water. Figured I must have taken some damage-No damage. I go to full stop then back the 'ahead slow'-nothing. I click the button to follow plotted course-Nothing. I then notice "rig for silent running is on" so I check the crew. I had left "rig for silent running' and 'battle stations' on and did some time compression to get to my next location and the ENTIRE crew was sound asleep!!:yep::lol: Good thing I wasn't in WWII Japan may have won it. :oops:

Peabody

[1480]

Are you running the stock game? TM? RFB?

This thread may be of help:http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=130096&highlight=enemy+sensors

[John Channing]

Here is how it worked in real life.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/SS-Doct/SS-Doct-4.html#section4

Works in the game, too!

JCC

[ridyard12]

Here is how it worked in real life.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/SS-Doct/SS-Doct-4.html#section4

Works in the game, too!

JCC

thats a very helpful website, and well pointed out.

[peabody]

Are you running the stock game? TM? RFB?

This thread may be of help:http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=130096&highlight=enemy+sensors
I think that is it, I will give it a try. I think from that thread it is probably Quillan's idea, I have used TC because I have limited time to play and the Merchants are so slow. I will try without TC and see what happens.
Thank you to all who offered help!!

Peabody

[Rockin Robbins]

Part of John Channing's reference:
A persistent enemy may remain in vicinity 24 hours or longer; therefore, conserve the battery by balancing or bottoming, when practicable.
Do you know what "balancing" is? It is a twin to bottoming, which is sitting on the bottom lightly by carrying just enough ballast to sit motionless on the bottom without use of engines of other noisemaking equipment. This is dangerous as if you are too heavy, localized stresses could cause hull damage.

Balancing is similar exploitation of a thermal layer. With the boat at neutral buoyancy, a condition never exactly achieved, if you sit motionless in the water you could remain there suspended until someone uses the head and your buoyancy is no longer neutral.:yep: Maintaining neutral buoyancy for fifteen minutes drove many a crew batty while they were being evaluated by the Captain's CO. It was a useless exercise, whose main value was determining whether the crew could continue to work together efficiently under severe stress.:rotfl:

However, with a friendly thermal barrier down there, we have a new water surface. Neutral buoyancy in the top, less dense water, is flotation buoyancy in the colder and denser water below. There is a range of displacements that will sink in the warm layer, yet float on the cold layer. See what I'm driving at? If you hit the middle of that range, now you can sit on top of the dense layer with all power off. Since there is a range of displacements that satisfy your suspended conditions, this is something you could do for days, if necessary, with all systems turned off. This is absolutely the quietest a sub can be, and the only limitation is your air supply so the crew can continue to breathe!

On a trim dive, the object was to mark the negative buoyancy tank at the neutral buoyancy position. Then you decended across the thermal barrier and marked it for neutral down there. Any level between the two marks allowed you to sink to the the bottom of the upper layer and float on top of the lower! I've always wanted to issue the order, "Flood negative to the mark!" Now you know what that means.

Now the bad news. We have no control over the ballast tanks. We can't do this. An important evasion stragegy, which saved several subs, is totally outside our grasp. Merry Christmas!:up:

[peabody]

Now the bad news. We have no control over the ballast tanks. We can't do this. An important evasion stragegy, which saved several subs, is totally outside our grasp. Merry Christmas!:up:

Gee, Thanks Rockin "candy bars taste good but you can't have any" :lol::lol:

Peabody

[-Pv-]

It's proably been noted:
Battle Stations increases your noise level. Turn it off for max quiet and stand down your DC crew. Keep your profile to the enemy at mimimum. I have found using 1 knot is preferable to all stop. The noise is not that much increased and the manouvability allows you to keep turning toward the closest enemy escort. Alert escorts means you have to plan your attack so you launch torps at max range and hope for the best.
-Pv-

[walrusbomb]

it could be they spotted you before you submerged.

[peabody]

it could be they spotted you before you submerged.

I kinda doubt that because I was submerged as I was coming up to my "sit a bit" site. It's the Northwest cornor or the Celebes Sea when it connects with the Sulu Sea. If you sit there for a while something WILL come by.
It was a good idea, and could have been the reason at other times, but on this occassion that made me finally ask the question I was submerged for a while because I know there may be something there when I get there.

Peabody

[-Pv-]

How good is your crew? You might want to try this area again when they are more seasoned if they are below 90% on average. Looks like you found a challenging area some of the more bored players will want to visit. If this is around the time or shortly after the Philippine invasion I can see you might be up against elite crews.
-Pv-

[DS]

This happens to me a lot. If the escorts pass close by in good water conditions, they will detect you even at all stop and silent running.

I counter this by keeping a bit further away from the convoy's base course, and start creeping in after the lead escorts have passed. I get detected less often that way (at least, until I start the shootin', but by then, it's too late for some merchants)

[seafarer]

Have you tried sitting even deeper? Say 250ft or so. I've crept right into convoys, under the very noses of the escorts at 250ft (or more, depending on sub class), silent running and 2 knots.

I also try to intercept and wait to come in from the flanks. It seems sitting right in front of the path of the convoy puts you in a more likely position to be detected. I like to sit 3000-5000 yards off their base course, wait for the lead escort to pass, then move in. Of course, if I've screwed up my plot of their base course, or they've changed course, it all falls apart :x

[walrusbomb]

or they've changed course, it all falls apart :x

I love when that happens... that old maritime paranoia. I've seen DD sweep directly at me as if they KNEW, only to see them turn back once the paranoia wore off and then immediately turn the entire convoy 35 degress.

ruined my lineup greatly, but felt so real.

[tomoose]

165ft is not very deep at all in the grand scheme of things. As previously mentioned go much deeper than that and real slow. Once the convoy starts over top then come up and have at 'em.:up:

[peabody]

Thanks for all the tips, greatly appreciated!! Since I am new (how long am I allowed to use that excuse?) it wasn't until the other day I realized you could go deeper than 165ft. I didn't know there was another dial. "Read the book stupid, that's what they printed it for" One question on that 'other' dial, the book says the 'operational area is marked in green and the red section is inviting disaster' Since my dial is not colored I assume the red needle is the max depth (assuming of course there is not hull damage, which would make save depth less?)

Peabody

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Ah, Mister Peabody, long time no see. I see you no longer stinky Bilge Rat, you now Stinky Sailor Man.:D Anyway, how far were you from the convoy? And diving to at least 180-200 feet is ok as long as you go below a thermal layer and move 1/3 speed. Turn off torpedo reload, any repairs and stop gives you a good fighting chance. If you do get DC is either the enemy is fishing you out or they really do have super sensors. One time a DD deliberately sailed over me hoping I'd go fast and the other DDs nearby will pick me up. I held my ground. It took me 4 hours of dodging just to get away. There's no sure method you'd get away scot free.

[peabody]

Ah, Mister Peabody, long time no see. I see you no longer stinky Bilge Rat, you now Stinky Sailor Man.:D Anyway, how far were you from the convoy? And diving to at least 180-200 feet is ok as long as you go below a thermal layer and move 1/3 speed. Turn off torpedo reload, any repairs and stop gives you a good fighting chance. If you do get DC is either the enemy is fishing you out or they really do have super sensors. One time a DD deliberately sailed over me hoping I'd go fast and the other DDs nearby will pick me up. I held my ground. It took me 4 hours of dodging just to get away. There's no sure method you'd get away scot free.

DJ
That was my problem, I was everything you stated:
Below thermal
Rig for Silent Running
Stopped
No Repairs
In fact I realized I was going to end up too far away from the convoy, either I miscalculated the course or they changed course, I think I miscalculated cause I still got a bit of Blige Rat in me!!:yep: I don't think I was too close. So, I think it was a comment I made above where Quillan said the TC triggers them to attack. I have to admit I got a little impatient, so I sped it up a bit and bang...they were all over me. But I showed them who's boss....I didn't save it!!! :up: I missed my one chance at a Task Force too, only one torpedo, and I had to sit and watch them sail by Scot free. But of course they were Scot free...they were Japanese...no Scots there.
Thanks for the ideas! One question, there is a button for autoload torpedos but they don't load if you are 'silent running', should I turn it off anyway?

Peabody

[-Pv-]

I only turn off the autoload button if I want to control which torp gets loaded where. One reason I do that is so I can force torps in consecutive tubes for faster cycling when shooting at mult targets. Later in the war, I might want a certain mix of torp types always in the tubes.
-Pv-

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Yes, when you turn off Silent Running auto-reload kicks in full swing. But don't use it when the DDs are pinging you. The reloading makes a lot of noise.:yep: That's why when I attack a Task Force it's a one time shot. I go the periscope level make sure everything's ok. Set all forward torps to contact only between 7000-8000 yards away and fire all of them. Go to the deepest level I can get on Silent Running and sail away. Usually the DDs get close to me and the cat and mouse game begins. I realize also that Heavy Fog can be your best friend at times. DDs can't seem to find you.:yep: DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT TC WHEN ENEMY IS CLOSE BY. Made that mistake once and nearly bought the farm when a merchie deck gunned me.

[Nisgeis]

Here is how it worked in real life.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/SS-Doct/SS-Doct-4.html#section4

Works in the game, too!

JCC

One part of that says 'Try to keep own and enemy's wakes between the submarine and her pursuers.' Does your own submarine create a wake when it is submerged, that would interfere with enemy passive and active sonar, or would that piece of advice only apply to surface operations (though I didn't think sound detection worked against subs on the surface)?

[seafarer]

Well, a wake is just the turbulence and disturbance behind anything passing through the water (or air). So yes, a submerged sub has a wake.

[peabody]

Ok, guys (and gals?) I appreciate all the help but you forgot one very important fact. When you are trying to sneak away very quietly MAKE SURE YOU DON'T RUN INTO THE SHIP YOU JUST SANK. I think that is a very important thing to know. :oops::lol: I knew the water wasn't very deep where I was so I had to watch my depth, so when I heard the noise I thought I hit bottom, but when I came up a bit, it still was making a racket, so I looked and this is it.

http://home.roadrunner.com/%7Epeabody/SH4/Crash.jpg

But anyway I did take your suggestions and met a small convoy and sank a 'Large Old Passenger Carrier and a Modern Passenger Liner. This is one of them. Then I went north because I was so embarrased the destroyers couldn't attack me they were laughing too hard.
I ran in to a Task Force in the northern gap going from the Sulu Sea to South China Sea and sank an Ise Battleship and went to 250ft. Ahead 1.3 and watched the map and kept turning away from searchers. I wish the pic was bigger but I was already on my way to 250 ft when I heard 'torpedo impact' so I took a quick look. I shot 6, I remember at least 4 hit but I'm not sure if they all did I was changing direction and depth at the time.
http://home.roadrunner.com/%7Epeabody/SH4/Ise.jpg

Thanks again for you help and suggestions.

Peabody

[Capn_Sinky]

On several of the quick missions I kept getting busted by the escorts before I could get close enough to fire. I would think I had sliped through the screen only to have them hit me from behind. The old "out of sight, out of mind" trap. Keep in mind that destroyers are deaf to the stern, but so are you. Dont get too comfortable, make a 45 to 90 degree turn every so often to check for destroyers behind you when you are below periscope depth. Haven't read about it that much in WWII references, but during and after the cold war it was refered to it as "clearing the baffles."

The best luck I have had in breaking through screens has been approaching below the thermocline (depends upon water temp, depth to seafloor etc. The guy calling out the depth will let you know when you have passed through it.) while rigged for silent running. Note you can rig for silent running and set your speed to whatever you want, but if you are running faster than ahead one third the chances of them picking you up goes way up. In the control room I have a hard time determining if they are searching in my direction because of the background music. The best thing to do is turn the music off or go to the sonar station every so often to listen for pinging. The louder and closer together the pinging the closer they are to detecting you. Watch the helmsman as well. I have noticed that when they are really close the helmsman starts looking nervious and starts looking up at the celing like he expects to see an ashcan fall out of the celing.:roll:

Fighting in the shallows is another thing all together. The chance of being detected actually goes down if you can sit near or on the bottom as long as you are set to silent running. The chance of them hearing you there is low, and since you are sitting close to or on the bottom the chance of them pinging you are reduced as well. The problem with shallow water combat comes in when you fire off that MK XIV and they follow the bubble trail right back to your location. Got to shoot and scoot.

Good Luck and Good Hunting
Capn_ Sinky (aka Stinky)
O.I.C.I.C.
Officer In Charge of Ice Cream
USS Drum