At what point do the escorts get down right nasty?

[MarkShot]

I am playing my first GWX2 career. It's close to the end of 1941. I was wondering at what point do the escort become a serious threat following an attack on a convoy?

So far, I have attacked convoys with 5-6 escorts. The escorts have done an acceptable job of picking up a submerged sub and from time to time forcing it deep and thus achieving a mission kill.

However, I haven't found them posing a real challenge to elude. So, I was wondering when does this change?

I am not finding much team work. Generally, maybe one or two of them will be near and drop DCs, but I haven't had to worry about all of them forming a tight circle and boxing me in.

For me, I tend to find the portion of WWII sub games where after an attack you have been detected submerged either actively or passively, the most challenging aspect of the game. (assuming they have gotten contact) The two key problems of first breaking contact and second disengaging are great deal of fun. Typically, when you are looking at 5 or more escorts, it can become extremely challenging.

So, that's what I am wondering about. When do the detection equipment, accuracy of the attack, quality of the tactics, and number of escorts reach truly "hands shaking" proportions?

Thanks.

[KeptinCranky]

before 1941 it's very variable, if you don't make stupid mistakes you'll usually get away

early 1942 is ocassionally challenging if you run into a nasty Tommy with some skills
on towards and into
1943 it gets real rough, especially on approaching convoys because of Radar and such, you'll also see DEs with more and more DC launchers as well as the first hedgehogs
It'll also get a whole lot nastier Plane-wise

1944 is just plain evil, even with a type XXI below 250 meters it's almost impossible to shake the ASDIC once they get a fix on you, and there's usually three of them hunting you

1945 is not all that much harder than 44, the battle of the Atlantic is lost by then, the best you can hope for is to find some (relatively) unprotected shipping North of the British Isles or out in the Indian Ocean

Don't even get me started on the Black Sea in 1944 :o

[MarkShot]

So, then would you say that the main difference as time progress will be in the individual performance of a single escort? So, is the highest expression of team work basically the summoning of other close escorts? Beyond that it is each escort for itself?

Thanks.

[GoldenRivet]

by 1943 - 44 the escorts almost always travel in packs of at least 2 or 3... if escorting a convoy i have seen 6 or 8 of them.

they will take turns listening for you on hydrophones while the others ping you and do depth charge and hedgehog runs against you.

you stand a 90% chance of death at their hands after 1943 no matter what you do.

the war is over for the u-boats after 1943 fades into 1944.

you should no longer hunt convoys and instead turn your sights on targets of opportunity (ie. single merchants)

the highest expression of their team work is one will set silent and listen to where you are going, while the others use asdic to attack you with depth charges and hedgehogs... they will also call in PT boats, planes and other area assets to assist in your sinking.

if they lose contact with you, the planes will patrol with radar and watch for periscopes, snorkels or for you to surface at which point they all turn around and start the attack again.

this is especially sickening if you get pinned down by a hunter killer group

[KeptinCranky]

ah yes, Teamwork, notice how there's no U in "team" :shifty:

They do cooperate as Goldenrivet has already described, usually it's three, with two circling and droppinf DCs while one pings or listens to fix your position, they also switch roles often, with one stopping and another starting to make DC runs

they definitely don't behave as if they were all individual destroyers, that would cause a lot more collision-avoidance behaviour than actually occurs in game

the best way to find out would be to start a career in 1944 and see how long you survive

[MarkShot]

Okay, I have made it to 1942. GWX 2.00

Since first getting my commission, I have been doing most of my hunting in the AM/AN sectors (about 500km East of England).

I have noticed two things during this patrol (#7) so far which may just be my imagination or may be the difficulty level increasing. So, let me ask you vets who have seen the war a few times already.

(1) I've run across what seem to be three ASW patrols. Well, they looked that way to me and I avoided them. Each had just three warships and no merchants. I heard them while hunting and just quietly avoided them. Didn't seem anything in it for me to challenge patrols. A task force might contain a prize like a battleship or a cruiser, but a patrol would be well fitted to kill me and be relatively low value ships.

(2) I've had a few convoy contacts, but they were too far to intercept. I am now intercepting my first convoy. Most convoys up to now have seemed to have 5 escorts (one in the lead and four on the points). This is my first convoy encounter where I am counting 8-9 escorts.

So, are the above observations random chance or my own imagination? Or is it now 1942 and the British have increased their efforts to battle the hunt me down and/or protect their convoys?

Thanks.

-----

Here is another question. I have mastered approaching a 5 escort convoy. Basically offset the center line by about 2km or so and let the lead escort go by and then cut in diagonally towards the center convoy going through the gap between the lead and point escorts.

Now, I am now facing 8-9 escorts. I am not sure how to get past the screen. It looks to be like there may now be multiple lead escorts, four point escorts, and multiple trailer escorts. I am not sure how I should make my approach. Any suggestions?

[irish1958]

"Now, I am now facing 8-9 escorts. I am not sure how to get past the screen. It looks to be like there may now be multiple lead escorts, four point escorts, and multiple trailer escorts. I am not sure how I should make my approach. Any suggestions?"

NO. This is the reason the U-Boat war was lost. Wolf packs helped for a brief time, but the escorts and air cover doomed the U-Boats.
The type XXI could have helped if it were available in '43.

[NealT]

Now, I am now facing 8-9 escorts. I am not sure how to get past the screen. It looks to be like there may now be multiple lead escorts, four point escorts, and multiple trailer escorts. I am not sure how I should make my approach. Any suggestions?

Yes. RUN AWAY. That way, you can live to fight another day.

However, IF you want to try...I personally would go deep, go to flank...go to PD, stick my scope up...fire at whatever I can see...go deep again...and turn 90 degrees about in the middle of the convoy and go silent. I would also pray a lot.

But 8-9 escorts? time to run...IMHO...

[Jimbuna]

43 onwards.......escort crews attain almost universal veteran then elite status on top of the improved asw measures (radar, hedgehog etc.)

Learn one lesson above all others. Learn how to bend over and kiss yer sweet ass goodbye :lol:

[MarkShot]

Well, I know I should run away, but I have yet to be challenged by this game. So, I think I will test the limits. Also, it is only by facing hard situations do we develop the skills needed to play games at the most challenging levels. Of course, sometimes, the best choice is simply avoidance. But, I'll try first.

[Blacklight]

At what point do the escorts get down right nasty?

As soon as their onboard psychics pick up my brain waves.

[Madox58]

onboard psychics?
:hmm:
Never thought of that one.
Would have been easier then the forwards looking time machine the Escorts have.
:rotfl:

[MarkShot]

Well, the attack went off pretty easy:

2.5km off the center beam I passed the lead escorts and then cut inside the screen. I put down two ships.

Then, I crash dove down to 150M and silently crept out the back of the convoy.

It wasn't hard. I guess I continue to wait for 1943 when the game is supposed to get hard.

---

One thing I know that is a big aid for me the contact lines. I have them modded so that I get grey and red lines. (I am very used to this from the days of AOD and SHCE.) However, unlike AOD and SHCE, the contact lines here give distance information. I have come realize that this is a tremendous advantage over the AOD and SHCE style contact lines which only provided bearing.

Of course, I could turn off contact marking on the map, but I think that makes maintaining situational awareness with 40 ships near a nightmare. That would definitely require absolutely no TC, since it would take every minute to build a picture of contacts. However, if the game doesn't get harder in the late war, then I will seriously consider that.

The other option would be to port over NYGM's contact line style which is mainly dots which tends to obscure ship locations when you have lots of contacts.

I wonder if there is anyway in SH3/4 to make contact line a constant length regardless of the contact's true distance?

[difool2]

You could try some "browning" shots from a medium distance outside the escort screen (browning was just firing torps blind into a convoy with the hope of hitting something). Once you get Fats then that becomes a pretty good proposition, ditto Zaukonigs. Trying to get close when there's umpteen escorts milling around is probably a losing proposition after mid '43.

[Sailor Steve]

The other option would be to port over NYGM's contact line style which is mainly dots which tends to obscure ship locations when you have lots of contacts.

I wonder if there is anyway in SH3/4 to make contact line a constant length regardless of the contact's true distance?
I use the Assisted Plotting mod. It gives the dotted lines that are used in NYGM, and removes all contacts from the map, with one exception: if you move the cursor around the map the dotted circles representing the ships will appear as the cursor passes over them. Clicking on one will reveal it to be 'Unknown'. Once you (or the Weapons Officer) have identified the target it will then appear on the map, with the information you have put into it. I think it's a very realistic interpretation of the plotting crew adding info to the map as you feed it to them.

[MarkShot]

Well, using my newly learned skills of how to push my career forward to any date I want, I warped from the start of 1942 to mid-1942. Next stop, 1943.

Despite the increased numbers of escorts, penetrating the screen proved to be pretty much the same as before. Side step the lead centers escorts. Cut in towards the center once passing them. Take time to carefully place some long range shots. Begin a slow quiet descent and departure from the area.

For the fun of it, I intentionally allowed myself to found a couple of times (by making noise). Then, I broke contact as the escorts continue to keep dropping on exactly the same spot.

I even tried to find out what would happen if I stayed shallow by not going below 45 meters. Pretty much the same results. So, I could be hunting in coastal waters and achieve the same.

Perhaps, 1943 will be my year. Funny, how when I started SH3/GWX2, attacking without being detected seemed so hard. Now, it is a piece of cake. I hope 1943 will put the fear of death into me and my crew. I'll need something more than pretty graphics to keep at this. I suppose there is nothing wrong with only playing the second half the war if that is where the challenge is.

[UnterseeBoogeyMan]

Speaking for myself, they are getting nasty now!

I'm into late January of 41, and it's getting nasty. I parked 1.5 kms off the track of a whale factory ship and that would have put me 2 or more kms off the centerline of the convoy. Went to 20 meters depth. I hear a Black Swan moving back and forth at 70 degrees, medium range. Astern, at 170 I hear a corvette going by. I am at silent running. No engines running at all. All of a sudden the Swan starts pinging! At first the pings dont bounce off but then they do. This has never happened before. I get ahead of the convoy, submerge and park it. This wont work against this group. Either something tipped them off or now the Royal Navy does ping sweeps as a standard tactic. It seems to be the standard 5-6 escorts.

Markshot, since you've got it down against the 5-6 group, I'll ask you or anyone else that wants to jump in;
are you parking the sub 2 kms off the exact center of the convoy?
Are you doing all your approaches at night?
the gap bw lead escort and the point - that would the escort that zooms back and forth in the center and the point is the escort off either the front starboard or port quarter, right? If thats it, is the center escort the only one banging away with his active sonar?

[MarkShot]

Up to mid-1942; going to jump to start of 1943 for the next patrol. I've attacked and got away against 8-9 escorts.

Here are the steps (mainly there are many small tricks to learn; once you do, then it is not hard):

(0) Note I often run at 2048 TC. You ask how do I avoid getting ambushed like this. I watch the smoothness of the clock. If it stutters, then something is happening and I dive and listen. If I hear nothing, then I surface and run at 64 TC for an hour or two just in case.

(1) Make sure you get a general plot from the contact report of convoy. You should get an expanding cone and plot it. Take the speed an plot one hour positions from the base of the cone.

(2) Now place a partial line segment for movement to the top of the first hour. Then, place line segments showing movement of the convoy for each hour.

(3) Plan an intercept such that you will arrive in an area of uncertainty a few hours before the convoy using your navigator. I only attack submerged in daylight. Using your line segments from #2 and the navigator you can work out all the timings without any math equations.

(4) As you near the intercept area, start diving periodically to get a sound contact. Listen personally with the engines shut off, since you can hear the convoy at 34km, but your crew will only be able to pick them up at 20km.

(5) When you get the convoy heard by your crew, then zoom out just far enough that the you have single contact line. Plot it.

(6) Let another 15 or 30 minutes go by. Plot like above.

(7) Draw the convoy's course and extend it. Now, you have a very exact course.

(8) Position to lead the convoy by a couple of hours.

(9) Submerge and go down to 25m. Go silent and run at just 2kts (100rpm).

(10) Keep the convoy on your beam for best listening.

(11) You can use TC up to 8X periodically.

(12) Make sure to get 2-3km off center, since the leads will weave and cover the center.

(13) Forget about the scope and just use the sonar. You are at 25m, in case you need to slow to 1kts or less, you don't want to broach.

(14) Prepare your crew and tubes.

(15) Let the lead escorts go by. Lead escorts are very sensitive to scopes in their forward quarter, but practically blind to them in the rear quarter.

(16) Continue to beam the convoy. The lead escorts should pass you with about 1km clearance. If they get closer, then slow to 1kts or less.

(17) After the leads pass you, then come about turning your bow towards the center line to shoot. Come up to 13M.

(18) Only show enough scope to get convoy ships to show on the map; even if you cannot see them visually due to water splasing. You get the SA, you need.

(19) When ready to shoot, go full up scope and carefully pick your targets and shoot. I am using TII/TIII set for impact.

You will easily get inside the convoy like this. Unlike other games (AOD especially), the escort screen logic is quite weak. What makes GWX2 tough is sensitivity to detect you; not strong AI. Once you know all the tricks to plot, approach, understand formation, and avoid detection ... you are fairly safe to go in a shoot.

Getting away so far has been fairly easy with nothing but a little bit of noise.

1943/44 here I come!

[MarkShot]

My guess would be that:

(1) You are not giving the escorts enough clearance. If you block their path, then they will find you. But since their formation is fairly rigid and predictable and you have a hours as they approach, you should be able to avoid them at 2kts.

(2) You are making noise and drawing attention to yourself.

(3) You are using your scope while you are out in front of the escorts. There is no need for the scope. You can do all your positioning via sound until it gets close to shooting time.

[MarkShot]

By the way, I learned the technique by just creating save points and running attacks repeatedly to learn what would work.

[Pablo]

By the way, I learned the technique by just creating save points and running attacks repeatedly to learn what would work. Well, there you have it!

The real reason the U-boats failed starting in 1943 wasn't because of the Allied introduced long-range aircraft, improved sonar, hedgehogs, etc.: it was because the U-boat commanders forgot to create save points before they attacked, and thus were unable to return from death to take advantage of their new-found knowledge of what would work and what wouldn't work! :p

I guess this means this we didn't make GWX tough enough. :o :damn:

We'll obviously have to go back to the drawing boards after we finish V2.1 and rethink what will really make the convoys a lot tougher. :arrgh!:

Pablo

[Grayson02sept1980]

your above list has some little problems for people using OLC's GUI and 100% realism.. no ships on the map

Everyathing else I say: Thanks a lot for that nice instruction :up:

[MarkShot]

When I play, I do the DID thing. But there is nothing wrong with using your careers to create and save a realistic set of practice scenarios to learn from.

That's another reason why noobs find SH3/GWX2 so hard in the early years. They get very little training time in, since it only happens when they encounter a convoy. Training for the player is very realistic. All military staff train during peace time and war time. So, I would not call this cheating even if some might (no different than reading the tips in the GWX manual).

Also, you can do most of what I suggested even without contacts on the map. It just becomes more tedious, but the principles still work fine.

[MarkShot]

Okay, I am heading out on patrol on 01/15/43. That should do it right? I am going to meet still opposition which if I am not careful should get me killed when attacking convoys?

Thanks.

[MarkShot]

The screen shot illustrates the basic intercept approach based on a contact report. We see:

(1) The corridor of probability.

(2) Hourly positions based on 8kts.

(3) The double line shows where I think the convoy will see the sunrise.

(4) The convoy should reach the sunrise position in about 5.5 hours. We will reach the area base on the navigator in 3.5 hours.

(5) The circle gives us some idea where we should able to hear to convoy.

(6) When we reach this area will begin dives every 30 minutes to try pick up the sound of the convoy.

Once we can hear the convoy, we start plotting a detailed track and from their planning our attack. Generally, I have tried to stay beyond visible range (except in bad weather). So, that has meant giving the convoy 15-20km bearth. Now, with the convoy maybe being fitted out with radar this presents a problem.

What is the radar detection range of mast mounted radar? 12nm, 20nm, 30nm? Do we have any tables?

This alone could pose a major problem to my hunting of convoys, since previously sonar always gave me the advantage of long range detection. Perhaps, the advantage has shifted. Well, we'll see.

http://home.comcast.net/~markshot/tempimages/meth01.jpg

[UnterseeBoogeyMan]

My guess would be that:

(1) You are not giving the escorts enough clearance. If you block their path, then they will find you. But since their formation is fairly rigid and predictable and you have a hours as they approach, you should be able to avoid them at 2kts.

(2) You are making noise and drawing attention to yourself.

(3) You are using your scope while you are out in front of the escorts. There is no need for the scope. You can do all your positioning via sound until it gets close to shooting time.

Thanks for the earlier suggestions, I will definately try them out. I think Reason 1. is more likely than reason 2 and 3. For 2, I was at Silent Running, 0 knots at 25 meters.
For 3, I didnt even touch th scope. But for 1, I was parked so I was 1000 meters off the furthest outside merchant. When I got pinged, I did go to periscope depth, turned the scope the at the destoryer and he was coming on 700 meters away. I am guessing he caught me somewhere bw 800-1000 meters. My angle to the convoy was not 90 degree perpindicular, more like 130. I will try your idea of staying abeam, and having my 180 degree area face them. It may be a smaller profile to pick up too. I'll check out parking further outside the convoy too.

I agree with you in that the AOD AI was good. I remember those days when the DDs would box you in and it was a nightmare to get out. The chit chat in the bar was good too. SHIII graphics with AOD game engine would be awesome. I did manage to shake my DD but I had to crank a hard 90 to port as he was coming over, 150 meters deep. That threw him off, otherwise he was going to ping me to insanity. No damage taken so far, just burning off more gas than I want.

Good luck with 1943. Sink them all and make it back! If you do, 1/2 a bottle of beer for each of the crew.

[MarkShot]

Check this out. Not one, but two convoys! :) Ah, yes!

http://home.comcast.net/~markshot/tempimages/meth02.jpg

[MarkShot]

Here is an example of using just the right level of zoom to establish courses for these convoys:

http://home.comcast.net/~markshot/tempimages/meth03.jpg

[Pablo]

Okay, I am heading out on patrol on 01/15/43. That should do it right? I am going to meet still opposition which if I am not careful should get me killed when attacking convoys?

Thanks.
Hi!

Actually, things didn't get really tough until May 1943 (aka "Black May").

Pablo

[bookworm_020]

In the later years you'll learn the usefulness in having a homing torpedo in the aft tube ready to go. it's saved my bacon quite a few times.:yep:

[MarkShot]

I must say 1943 is beautiful change.

Attacking and sinking merchants was no harder than it was in 1942, but now for the first time I am surrounded by four escorts and they are all pinging away. They are sticking with me and dropping DCs.

Wonderful!

Yes, I am having fun now! :)

[Madox58]

If it gets to droll,
I can give you a few weapons for the allies that may change your mind.
;)

[Kpt. Lehmann]

...but I have yet to be challenged by this game. So, I think I will test the limits. Also, it is only by facing hard situations do we develop the skills needed to play games at the most challenging levels.

I think that the experience you've had 'running the drill' with various submarine simulations... over and over... from AOD to SH3, may in actuality be working against you now.

In that respect, I'm almost certain that the machinery of the AI in SH3, even following GWX modifications, will be a disappointment to you.

Some may view this as a 'cop-out' or evasion, but typically we avoid discussing definitive ranges and the maximum 'reach' of various elements that relate to the ASW aspects of GWX. Many of these elements are subject to little if any variable factor. Discussing them in any real detail would remove the 'challenge' you seek altogether and would spoil the uncertainty for many many users. Once you KNOW a thing... you cannot unlearn it.

I can understand if you derive a bit of pleasure from finding the limits and boundaries of various matters by analysis... but bear in mind a question, "Do I really want to know the exact answers?"

Sometimes a simulator player can be his own worst enemy.;)

[MarkShot]

I will continue on with 1943. I think that perhaps this is where the game should start for me.

Now, perhaps those who have said that convoy hunting is fool hardy in 1943 and beyond speak wisely, but then I will try anyway.

Why?

Well, as we all know the real sub captain did his best to find easy victims to sink and avoid risk. This makes total sense for war, but makes for a boring game. The fun of commerce raiding is getting in and getting out.

So, I think I will actually bypass lone merchants and go after convoys. I do believe as a general matter of principal in convoy attacks, one should strive to attack and disengage without being detected (meaning, of course, they know you are there, but they do not have sensor contact with you). The superior player does that. The inferior player allows himself/herself to be detected and then attempts to break contact. And, of course, the very inferior player fails to break contact and dies.

Now, I am not sure if in SH3/GWX2 post-1943, if one can attack and disengaging without being detected. But I will see if I can develop techniques at this. Various standards are:

(1) Shoot long range - give yourself time to displace and dive before the torpedo puts everyone on alert.

(2) Sprint - briefly before they come looking for you to displace. I don't think this work here, since they are so atuned to engine noise.

(3) Exit out the back - pass under and out the back of the convoy using its noise and confusion to cover your escape.

(4) Wolfpack - wait until others have attacked and are taking heat, then you attack. (no wolfpacks here)

(5) Attack in very poor visibility - surface out of visual and sprint away on the surface. (Won't work with radar or will it? Since everyone with be using active/passive sonar, then maybe no one will have their radars on.)

(6) Deep, deep, deep - go and stay so deep that they cannot pick you up. (Might work here, but you'll need to make 3kts to keep from sinking deeper.)

Then, there is breaking contact:

<to be continue tomorrow>

---

I agree that understanding the mechanics will take some of the challenge away, but what fun is a game such at this if one only plays the sure thing or depends on blind luck. One must make calculated gambols based on skill if one is too have a sense of achievement.

Tonight was the most fun I have had in four weeks of GWX 1.03 and 2.00. I love the tension of the hunt and the escape. I am glad everyone kept saying to me 1943, since I was ready to shelve the game. Instead now I am really up for playing it.

[harzfeld]

I noticed a huge circle icon on map representing convoy, I wonder why or what it means? Even most convoy reports showing square icon. I have attacked two convoy after they showed up as circle on world map, I noticed they were huge and alot of whale factory, tankers, large merchants, etc. I learned the best method to attack that kind of convoy using G7a going set at slow or medium speed for further range at night time until new electric torpedoe type comes out that should go twice further than G7e.

I noticed one IXB was around 10,000m away from me joining the attack, but too bad it didn't submerge, it got shelled at. I think that IXB was firing deck gun at convoy and its escorts, that IXB got finished pretty quick. I wish it could have submerged and fired torpedoes so that would make it easier for me move in while escorts move away being busy dealing with that or other Uboats. It would be a good decoy.

[harzfeld]

a further to add, when there's a huge convoy, I kill the leading escort with pleasure, so I can attack the same convoy for 2nd or 3rd times after reloading torpedoes. It pain to sneak into while there's leading escort, so answer is take it out then. I usually do that in IXs, but rare for VIIs.

[Jimbuna]

I must say 1943 is beautiful change.

Attacking and sinking merchants was no harder than it was in 1942, but now for the first time I am surrounded by four escorts and they are all pinging away. They are sticking with me and dropping DCs.

Wonderful!

Yes, I am having fun now! :)

I notice you have no problem in using the advantage of coloured contact lines http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/621/thinkbigsw1.gif

[Grayson02sept1980]

I must say 1943 is beautiful change.

Attacking and sinking merchants was no harder than it was in 1942, but now for the first time I am surrounded by four escorts and they are all pinging away. They are sticking with me and dropping DCs.

Wonderful!

Yes, I am having fun now! :)
I notice you have no problem in using the advantage of coloured contact lines http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/621/thinkbigsw1.gif

:rotfl: LMAO :rotfl:

100% :rock:
;)

[MarkShot]

Yes, it is hard to break the old habits of AOD and SHCE. There are other things which I do that would make some say, "My game is more real than your game." That's fine with me. I play games as I enjoy to play them. For games like these, I mainly like being in charge of the boat and not running individual stations or role playing a single crew position. Nor, do it want to overwhelm myself with tedious details. If I did only one thing in this game and handles sonar at TC1, I could easily maintain a decent map of contacts. Given time, I am sure I could learn to decently estimate speed and range via sound.

I know that "no map contacts" would make the game entirely different, but just too tedious for me. One of the biggest advantages SH3/4 gives over AOD and SCHE is being able to range these lines. You don't have that in those other games. That's not to say that it is imposssible to range the lines. You usually do it by bearing rate (speed of swing), sound of props through the hull, and strength of pings.

One thing that SHCE gives you easier than AOD or SH3/4 is that it shows which contact is doing the pinging. This allows you to prioritize the orientation of your boat.

Each of these games have specific strengths, weakness, focus, and behaviors. That's why I still play them all. I like SH3/GWX, but I don't find it supercede that which came before it. In the same way, I will play SH4/TM and SH4/RFB. They offer some new things, but also lose things too.

I am very happy to have four so different and varied WWII subsims to enjoy these days. Life has never been better. (Now that I have seen 1943, it will be the starting for me from now on.)

Thanks, GWX Team!

[MarkShot]

I think square contacts have matching log reports. Round contacts only show up on the map. I don't know why that is.

[Jimbuna]

I think square contacts have matching log reports. Round contacts only show up on the map. I don't know why that is.

Unless I'm misinterpreting what you mean here........Round contacts usually refer to submarines. The lead vessel in the convoy is the deciding factor of what is shown.

Sooooo....if I'm correct in my assumption, the round contact should signify a convoy with a submarine at the front, or a 'lone' vessel that is a submarine.

Just ignore my ravings if I understood your post incorrectly. http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[MarkShot]

I trust you are right as you know the game engine much better.

Back to realism ... why hunt convoys 1943 and beyond and be suicidal?

Well, maybe there is an element of realism to it. One BBC documentary I like on the U-Boat war, points out that Doenitz and his captains knew that they could no longer win it. However, they decided to push one (even if suicidal).

Why?

(1) National pride and honor.

(2) Keep the pressure on the enemy. The psychological war.

(3) Force the enemy to commit ships and planes to defending the convoys and hunting the U-boats that otherwise might have been dropping bombs on German cities or German troops or supply lines.

So, perhaps it might even be realistic to but heads with convoys until the bitter end, since many died rather than be prudent. But me, I am just playing a game (intellectual exercise).

I certainly do not want to glorify these crews and men. For if they had succeeded in strangling the island fortress of England and crushing the USSR. The World their efforts and sacrific would have bought would be one not fit to live in for many of us who play these games.

[bigboywooly]

Jim is correct re circle map icon of convoy
Radio reports for that convoy are coming from a shadowing uboat

[Sailor Steve]

...why hunt convoys 1943 and beyond and be suicidal?

Well, maybe there is an element of realism to it. One BBC documentary I like on the U-Boat war, points out that Doenitz and his captains knew that they could no longer win it. However, they decided to push one (even if suicidal).

Why?

(1) National pride and honor.

(2) Keep the pressure on the enemy. The psychological war.

(3) Force the enemy to commit ships and planes to defending the convoys and hunting the U-boats that otherwise might have been dropping bombs on German cities or German troops or supply lines.

So, perhaps it might even be realistic to but heads with convoys until the bitter end, since many died rather than be prudent. But me, I am just playing a game (intellectual exercise).
I think a part of it was also something most gamers and all gamblers experience: the "this time it's gotta work?" syndrome. If we just keep trying, we have to win. We just can't lose. It can't really be happening.

[MarkShot]

Well, I have been playing and practicing 1943. Some initial impressions:

(1) Attacking and getting into the convoy doesn't seem any harder than in earlier years using the same techniques. The key is knowing the convoy's track and understanding the formation. Creeping in and coming about and the choosing the right time to shoot.

(2) I have a saved game where they have me cornered. I did a little practice with it and I was sunk. I need to spend more time with it and see if I can break contact. I am not sure if it is possible.

(3) After the attack, disengaging hasn't proved very hard. The important thing is to continue the same stealth tactics that got you in initially. Which is 1-3kts and start heading deep.

Very strange about SH3.

In AOD and SHCE, when a merchant goes boom, the escorts come racing to the likely location of a submarine. Of course, if you have set up the situation well, you are not there when they arrive. But the important thing is they come generally as fast as they can. Thus, they don't leave time much time to depart the area.

In SH3, I find the escorts seem to come over very casually despite their great speed potential. Thus, if you shoot a good distance away from any escorts, you stand a good chance of creeping away, since the escorts come over very casually to investigate the situation. Now, you may say that if the escorts raced over, they would not be able to detect you. True. But they need to be looking in the right spot first. One the key rules of ASW warfare when you got a sub is to box it in quickly before the AOU (area of uncertainty) has time to expand and grow.

Thus, given where the merchants were hit; some triangulation and the max speed of the sub ... the escorts should be able to close on a likely area fairly fast and commence the search. They do not. They allow the sub 2X to 3X more time than the minimum available to displace. At the same time, this translates into the potential area where the sub may be of an exponential increase in the area necessary to search.

In summary, escort logic is weak on the screen and on the hunt:

(1) The screen is too rigid of a formation that fails to cover much of the convoy's perimeter. Worse yet, the lead elements search a very narrow footprint.

(2) When hunting a sub, escorts fail to use their great speed to maximum advantage. When they have detected a sub and lost it, they tend to keep blowing holes in the same location rather than expanding the search area in a logical fashion and/or boxing the sub in.

(3) So far, it seems the one thing that the escorts do well is prosecute a contact which they continue to hold on their sensors.

[Jimbuna]

Jim is correct re circle map icon of convoy
Radio reports for that convoy are coming from a shadowing uboat

Twas good to catch up with you over on TS last night mate http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[harzfeld]

In my early days after SH3 came out, I always attacked convoy without observing, lesson learned. It important to see how many destroyers escorting, their positions, even their classes. During my half way attack on a convoy one time, an escort pinged me sooner than I thought, I hate to crash dive leaving my work unfinished, then I came to notice that escort was the only escort for that convoy. So I opened my stern tubes and fired at it, but those G7e were premature hits, lucky for me, there was a tanker by me. I got closer to tanker forcing escort to go around so I when back full and fired one G7a at max speed and sunk that escort, then I surfaced and attacked the entire unprotected convoy. I should have sunk that escort first without wasting those two premature torpedoes if I had observe carefully. :damn:

Also when there 6 escorts, one carry hedgehog, and 5 are averages, then I would sink one with hedgehog first. Most time I sank leading escort, usually have to be closer like under 3000m before leading escort zigzag again. When leading escort stops zigzag, that when I fire torpedoes. It can be risky but after sinking leading escort, attacking the same convoy becomes easier for 2nd, 3rd times. I think there are some depends on which escort classes has weaker to strongest sonar, I would want to sink one with strongest sonar so I can get away from ones with weaker sonar. One time in 1944, I attacked a convoy in clear daylight and no wind near Biscay Bay, Hunter class and corvette I think detected me, I was in VIIC/42, when I got to 250m, I was able to get away from them, but River Escort class wasn't part of that convoy and came to help, it detected me within 1500m range while those other two escorts were far behind. I have been chased by that River Escort for 5 hours until it ran out of depth charges, but it called for more escorts nearby to come and help out. No matter how deep or quiet I am, they always ping me. It took me two days to death from going deeper to crush trying to get away from them. Btw this was in older GWX verison, i don't know if that changed since I am still in early war years.