No crush depth or fail safe?

[MarkShot]

I was trying to see how deep my Gato class sub could dive.

No matter what I did, it would not go below 670 feet with the sound of glass popping.

I am using TM 1.7.6. I tried this with and without the dive rate mod.

Are you not meant to force the sub below crush depth? Does the game have a fail safe built in for the player?

Thanks.

[MarkShot]

Well, I tested RFB. Same problem.

I think some mod after RFB and TM has messed with the diving and crush depth behavior.

[Rockin Robbins]

You just seem determined to break things here!:up: Sounds like our kind of guy!:arrgh!:

[MarkShot]

I am writing a bug report for the mod forum right now. Then, going to sleep!

[Taurolas]

i've tried this using

Tm 1.7.6
RSRDC P3 for TM
NSM4

and i've exceeded 720ft on my Balao (by the time i got to this depth using the planes set to deep dive) i'd got bulbs popping and water pouring out of the pipes in the conning tower, talk about hairy!

correct me if i'm wrong but if you set the planes to deep dive they stay that way untill you either order maintain depth A or get crushed well thats what i've found so far.

[MarkShot]

Yep, the Dive Rate mod breaks the Deep Dive function of TM.

Deep Dive is actually going to Snorkel Depth in the game, but the depth was reset to a value just beyond on what your sub can tolerate. Believe it or not, I checked yesterday and the stock game had no way to intentionally endanger your boat without having flooding damage. Amazing a subsim where cannot go to deep! Like a driving sim where you can go off the track! What were they thinking? :(

The real question is does anyone know if you go deep, if the AI able to detect and attack at such depths? Or is Deep Diving effectively a guaranteed escape route? Is this perhaps why RFB has not deep dive key?

Thanks.

[AVGWarhawk]

Markshot,

I use RFB and the new Dive Rate mod. I can push the boat deep. She usually implodes when I near 400+ feet. I'm not sure of the mechanics and what dictates if you will implode or not but I would hope it is a crap shoot. Reason being, if you and I as players find that going deep is a sure escape route, then the evasion challenge is gone. But, if the game throws the dice for you, then you as the skipper take your life and the virtual crew's life into your own hands. If I remember correctly someone found it is a crap shoot and your hull will slowly loose integrity when you are deep. It would be interesting to find out.

As far as deep dive, I click on the dial for the depth I want. She will go there all be it growning all the way.

[Redwine]

The problem is a "bug" (?) or "feature" included fom the early version...

Was called "domino" effect here in the forum, when you take damage, your crush depth is reduced dramatically but with no kind of advice...

Nice if we can have a first officer or chieff alert calling : "be ware captain, hull is extremelly stressed, our crush depth is dramatically reduced... do not dive too depth"

But not, after take damage, if you attempt to dive, you can reach your new crush depth and a domino effect is triggered... and you are done.

You can do nothing when this happen, in example, only for example values, imagine your crush depth is 250m, but you had taken damage, now your new crush depth is no any more 250m, it may be 70m only... if you approach to 70m, the domino effect is shooted and in less of one second you are done...

For this reason many modders had tweaked a value called "Crash Speed", it is the speed at wich the sub take the terminal damage...

Reducing this speed, you can react to the domino effect, attempt to put flank speed and attempt to rise up you actual depth... to avoid the terminal damage.

The bad point of this, is... the sub can dive under the crush depth... because it takes damage slowlwer than in stock values...

I use this tweak into a mod i made for early versions, and due to this tweak i called the mod... "Die Slowly"

Tweaking the "CrashSpeed" value you can change this behavior to anothe not too much permisive, but with an accentuated domino effect.

Hope this help to understand the effect you described... :up::up::up:

[Redwine]

The real question is does anyone know if you go deep, if the AI able to detect and attack at such depths? Or is Deep Diving effectively a guaranteed escape route? Is this perhaps why RFB has not deep dive key?

Thanks.

If i dont remember bad, almost in SH3, sensors had a limit of 300m, you must to watch the lower limit for the sensors.

Depth charge can be adjusted by the AI to any depth they are launched, it is not real, then you can be hited by a depth charge almost up to the limit of the sensors, 300m almost in SH3, may be the same here in SH4.

[MarkShot]

Thanks very much for the history and the explanations.

That clarifies what I saw with TM and diving deep. With a Gato, I was able go to about 640' with warning and lights popping. There is no way to really go deeper, since the depth is hard coded in the SNORKEL DEPTH hack. Unlike say SH1 where you can simply put your planes on dive.

Then, after being at 640' for a while, the chain reaction of damage would begin.

Okay, so what we have is unlike other sub sims I play (AOD and SHCE), with TM and RFB you can push deep for short periods of time before things go critical. However, going deep causes lasting structural integrity problems. In other games, you simply go pop when you hit the magic depth.

Question: Will going to any depth beyond what is listed on your diving gauge result in reduced structural integrity or is there a certain leeway in terms of depth or time at a given depth before the damage occurs?

* I suppose this can be further explored using save games and Damage Analyzer 2.

[AVGWarhawk]

I'm not sure. If I remember correctly you slowly loose the hull integrity and if you are already damaged, the hull integrity will go a bit quicker. To be honest, I never went deep and hung out there to see the out come. I certainly will do this and find out what happens. I believe it is modelled in where if you are damaged, your crush depth is severly limited. This is a given really. I do, however, see your point on diving deep to evade and nothing happens to you. The boats can go deep but were rated by the engineers to just so far. Many going 500-600 feet deep either in control or out of control. I would be sweating the family jewels off at that depth. This reminds me of a scene in Das Boot were he takes the boat deep and all is quiet then bang, a rivet goes flying. I'm sure some Hollywood added here but all the same, could and probably did happen when going deep. I was talking to a friend who was on these boats. He said at 350 feet these boats were creaking and talking big time. Bulkhead doors would open but door inside a compartment such as crews berth and the galley would not open. That old story of a tight string on the surface that start to bend down and go slack as you go deeper is not an old story. He said you could watch the hull compress. I can only imagine how she was singing at 600 feet:o I do not know it was pure guts to go that deep or the alternative of what is on the surface was worse.

[Redwine]

Question: Will going to any depth beyond what is listed on your diving gauge result in reduced structural integrity or is there a certain leeway in terms of depth or time at a given depth before the damage occurs?

* I suppose this can be further explored using save games and Damage Analyzer 2.

Not sure what is "leeway", sorry my bad english... if i am not wrong, with NO damage, when you pass the crush depth, you start to take structural damage, at the determined "CrashSpeed", with the stock value for crashspeed, you have not time to do nothing, instead with the tweaked values, you have time to recover the sub.

The important here, is, you crush depth "change" (is reduced) when you take damage, then you can not to know it, then, when you see you are takeing damage, you must to rise up inmediatelly.

Plus... there is another "sui generis" behaviour attached to this, when you take some level of damage... if you attempt to dive, you can fall into an uncontrolable dive.

Then when you take damage, it is better if you attempt to maintain the "indamage" depth, and attempt to not pass under it any more in the remain of the mission.

When i made the Die Slowly mod, i madea list of tips... about this behaviour, here they are, may be somebody can found useful...

Related to the sub...

2]>>>>>>>>>>>

This pack of tweaks do not solve the "Domino" effect un sub damage model.

But...

Makes these anoying problem to not happen too often.

After take severe damage, you sure, in most cases, will be able to perform a dive toperiscope depth, o even a crash dive safelly.

To go beyond this point is up to your consideration and risk.

The probability to survive will depend on many things:

The way you choice your crew at port, the way you manage your crew at sea, the way you distribute it into compartementsand into the Damage Control Team.

The attention you give to your depth and the hability of the sub to maintain it.


3]>>>>>>>>>>

This pack of tweaks do not solve the loss of both symetrical items, port and straboard at same time, and the anoying loss of propulsion

But...

Makes this do not happens to often, you will losss both straboard and port items, only if you receive morethan one hit in that zone, or a very well aimed direct hit.

TIPS :
#####

0]
Be cautious, pick-up good crew at port.
Attempt to pick-up enough crew with mechanical and electrician habilities, into each compartement and
into Damage Control Team when at port... when at sea, it is too later.


1]
REMEMBER :

The best way to not take damage is remain undetected.
Try it.

2]
If you are detected, finish your present job as soon as posible, attempt to dive under the thermal layer
and go silent as soon as posible, change course.

3]
If you cant evade at this point, perform evasive maneuvers. Watch the sonar contacts and attempt to maintain
them at your back. Stablish course to move away from them.

5]
If you consider an attack is inminent, remeber to remove the AAA Crew from their battlestations to prevent
them to become wounded.

6]
Build a good Repair Team. Do it before the attack !!!
Mechanical and electrician habilities makes the best.
Remember, the habilities and efficience of the Damage Control Team Leader affects at all the team.

7]
If you take damage, attempt to MAINTAIN INDAMAGE DEPTH.

REMEMBER THIS INDAMAGE DEPTH.

ATTEMPT TO NEVER OVERPASS THIS INDAMAGE DEPTH ANY MORE IN THE REMAINING TIME OF THE PRESENT MISSION.

8]
Call inmediatelly for "all crew to battlestations".

9]
Inmediatelly select all Bulkhead items as propority to repair.
Select priority order for other items main items, like main pumps, proppellers axis, batteries, electric engines.

10]
Remove any wonded crew from damaged compartements, specially those with "bulkhead damage" and "flooding".
Watch the compartement efficience green band when replace wounded crew, some times a wonded crew rise up
more the green band due to its hability.

11]
If you take damage over the thermal layer, and cant shake DDs from you, attempt to reach the thermal layer,
but... perform small depth changes at time, in example increase depth 5m by 5m.

12]
Monitor depth closelly, attempt to dive when damaged can cause an uncontrolable dive, be ware to aproach to
the crush depth, maintain the sub as far as posible from it.

13]
If you cant maintain depth, quickly apply power, increase speed. Be ware, you will make noise.

14]
When depth was recovered, or when bulkhead and/or flooding are repaired, reduce speed to be silent.

15]
Monitor depth closelly, if cant control depth, quickly increase speed a new time.
Peform speed reductions when you are able to control depth, and remain silent.

16]
Sail at silent running, move away from DDs, and wait for items repaired.

17]
When safe, surface the ship, man your AAA and allow to repair items on surface.

18]
Do not forget to remove all crew from battlestations, and repair team if posible.
Let them to rest or their efficiency will droops down by fatigue.

19]
Back home... forget more combats for the present mission.

20]
Stay alert on surface, to have an early alert for enemy ships and planes.

21]
If an enemy ship is detected, attempt to move away, if not posible, dive to periscope depth as soon and early
as posible.
Attempt to move away as soon as posible, use flank speed is needed and the enemy ships is enough far.

22]
If you was not able to move away, and the enemy ship become near, attempt to "show" it a small surface
as posible, maintain it at your stern or your bow.
Bow offers lower noise but approach you to the enemy.

23]
If you cant scape, dive to persicope depth, slowly... if posible. Remain silent, set silent running.

24]
If sadly you are detected a new time, and decide to dive more deep, be ware, make small depth changes,
and so early, in example, 5 meters at time each time.

25]
RECALL YOUR "INDAMAGE DEPTH", MENTIONED IN POINT 7]

Attempt to NEVER OVERPASS YOUR "INDAMAGE DEPH".

DO NOT STAY AT DEPTH TOO MUCH TIME, JUST ONLY THE NECCESARY, SUB's HULL TAKES DAMAGE WITH NOT ADVICE.

26]
If you shake them, surface and back home, forget any encounter or combat for the remaning time of
the present mission.

27]
If you detect a plane, DO NOT LOSS TIME, just dive to periscope depth.

28]
I you are surprised by a plane, you must to decide, fight on surface and take the risk of a bomb, or
perform a crash dive.

29]
If you perform a crash dive, let all other things, and monitor depth so closelly, when you pass the periscope
depth, attempt to manually level the sub before it reach the crash dive depth.

Attempt to level it at in example 30 meters, before to reach the 40 meters of the crash dive.

30]
If you can not to do it for any reason, in most of the cases tested, even with severe damage, the sub was
able to reach the crash dive depth and survive the "Domino" effect.

31]
Attempt to not stay too much time submerged at deeper depths, SUB's HULL TAKES DAMAGE WITH NOT ADVICE.

A small advice can be the crush sounds. If you hear them, you are taking hull damage.

If crush sounds happens, reduce depth imediatelly.

32]
As soon as posible reduce depth, if you must to stay subemerged attempt to move away of the danger zone
and use periscope depth, avoid deeper depths.

33]
As soon as posible, surface the ship and back home.

34]
After patch v1.3, the DDs become extremelly strong, specially their bows, wich can support 6 torps with
no damage and non sense.

If you are enforced to shoot a DD from its front line, direct on its bow, just adjust the torpedo to
magnetic pistol, and its depth under the DD's keel, to ensure, the torpedo will explode after pass the bow
under the keel at middle ship.

35]
Remeber if you increase the torpedo run depth, you increase the probability to hit or reach to cause damage
to the ship's keel, increasing the chance to break it in two pieces.

[MarkShot]

Leeway means in English: slack, a buffer, effectively a safety margin.

Thanks for the tips!

Have you also tuned DCs for SH3 and SH4? I remember you tuned them from SH2/PA, verdad?

[Redwine]

Leeway means in English: slack, a buffer, effectively a safety margin.

Thanks for the tips!

Have you also tuned DCs for SH3 and SH4? I remember you tuned them from SH2/PA, verdad?

You talk about Lethal Radius Mod...
I had tweaked the DC for SH3, and initially for SH4, but i am testing patch v1.4 now with stock DC...

:up: