Berkley and the Marines

[dean_acheson]

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/02/13/democrats-place-anonymous-hold-on-semper-fi-act/

Kinda self explanitory, esp. for those who have been following this.

[Iceman]

People like this give hippies a bad name :|\\ ...protesting a recruiting office...what donkeys.

[sonar732]

It's one thing for people to protest a recruiting station, it's another for a town to attempt a forceable exit.

When the Iraq War started, I remember schools refusing to allow recruiters inside on the premise that they didn't want the kids to be "brainwashed" into joining.

[baggygreen]

Walked into a service station the other day after reserve training in uniform and got told 'hope you go to iraq and get shot'.

real good... I've been enlisted only 6 weeks and im copping grief like that!

imo these anti-war people are going way way too far now.

[Onkel Neal]

Kinds surprising, isn't it? How hateful the peace-lovers are.

[Torplexed]

Kinds surprising, isn't it? How hateful the peace-lovers are.
Ya gotta love those mixed messages they send. ;) I'm sooo glad those hideous fringed jackets and coats never made a fashion comeback.

http://neptoon.homestead.com/Molotov-Molly.jpg

[dean_acheson]

TP, great cartoon.

Here's another lovely story:

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080209/NEWS16/802090394

[dean_acheson]

http://www.zombietime.com/berkeley_marines_2-12-2008/

not totally sfw, but pictures of the protestors and counter-protestors in Berkeley.

[Peto]

I can put up with a lot of Liberal thinking but Berkeley isn't Liberal. If they shaped the world the way they think best, we'd be living in set of Road Warrior. They don't seem to pause and consider what the world would be without any laws what-so-ever.

I'm pro-demonstration (or the right to demonstrate) but I can't say I'm pro-Bone Head.

[sonar732]

Here in Columbia, MO, they have a demostration every Wednesday at the corner of Providence and Broadway. Columbia is a liberal town and the honking in support shows it. However, there is a little bit of decency in the town.

Last year, I went to McDonalds with my wife and kids right after drill. While the kids were playing in the playland, I was receiving so many stares that I was getting a little nervous wondering what type of 'peace loving' comments I'd get myself. Well, while my wife took the kids to the van and I was cleaning up, a gentleman and his wife came up to me with their hands outstretched and a smile. He had a firm grip to match mine as he shaked my hand.

"Thanks"

"No Problem"

Wish there were more like him.

[dean_acheson]

Sonar,
Come on down to Branson, this town, by and large, is very Pro-Vet/Military. We have large events on Veterans Day, this year it included some of the living Tuskeegee airmen.

http://bransonveterans.com/veterans-homecoming.htm

http://www.bransondailynews.com/story.php?storyID=5398

Of course, that's part of the reason that folks love to make fun of us. The area is pretty conservative, and we are pretty proud of it.

[Sea Demon]

I can put up with a lot of Liberal thinking but Berkeley isn't Liberal. If they shaped the world the way they think best, we'd be living in set of Road Warrior. They don't seem to pause and consider what the world would be without any laws what-so-ever.

I'm pro-demonstration (or the right to demonstrate) but I can't say I'm pro-Bone Head.

Berkeley is a liberal left-wing Democrat city. I live 2 hours drive away. My sister moved away from there to Oregon last year. I've been to several protests to laugh at the kooks there. I've even had one of the "Black Bloc" activists threaten me with physical violence. Of course I laughed in his face. Trust me, these people are Democrat activists and socio-paths of many varieties. And liberals of varying intensities. But they are indeed liberals in the modern sense.

I am also for the right to demonstrate, and convene politically, but most of the people I've seen "demonstrating" in Berkeley made me think that they needed padded cells and medication more than anything else.

[Stealth Hunter]

When the Iraq War started, I remember schools refusing to allow recruiters inside on the premise that they didn't want the kids to be "brainwashed" into joining.

Don't make me laugh! My nephew lives in the Midwest (Missouri). The school he goes to has recruiters come there quite frequently (about once a month). Hell, he's snapped about a dozen photos of them using his cellphone. Nobody ever joins, of course, but those bastards try and trick them into joining (acting friendly, joking with the kids, you get the picture). Really pisses me off.

[Sea Demon]

When the Iraq War started, I remember schools refusing to allow recruiters inside on the premise that they didn't want the kids to be "brainwashed" into joining.
Don't make me laugh! My nephew lives in the Midwest (Missouri). The school he goes to has recruiters come there quite frequently (about once a month). Hell, he's snapped about a dozen photos of them using his cellphone. Nobody ever joins, of course, but those bastards try and trick them into joining (acting friendly, joking with the kids, you get the picture). Really pisses me off.
There is nothing wrong with military recruiters looking for recruits. What's wrong with acting friendly in the process? The nation needs military personnel. Schools are a good place to look for new recruits (high school and colleges). It's a job nobody is forced into and may provide career opportunities. I fail to see your cynicism. I also remember schools refusing recruiters into schools to offer them opportunities in military employment. I found those schools and their decision disgusting.

[Stealth Hunter]

A: My nephew is 15.
B: These guys are just looking for fresh fish.
C: For a **** war? Hell no, and this is also being done without consultation of the parents.


I fail to see why you're such a big supporter of the military at the moment and why we should give the government more personnel for a useless and senseless war to begin with.

The only reason why they go to schools to recruit is because they know kids are stupid and easy to influence. If they can bag their quota, then they're happy. They don't care, otherwise. They just don't care.

I fail to understand your logic. A bunch of 14, 15, and 16-year olds are not fit for the military. They're not even old enough to go (unless our beloved president has lowered the bar for recruitment; funny that they still can't drink or smoke). You found their decision to disallow military recruitment in a school disgusting? Unbelievable. Un-fecking-believable.

Let me tell you something, hot-shot, war is not a game. If you're so damn ready to head off into the breach, then be my guest. I'm not going to stop you. But let me tell you this, when you go and when you see the bodies, when you smell the blood and the rotting flesh, when you feel the heat from an explosion or the cold sensation of wet blood, then you're not going to feel so gung-ho anymore. When you watch your best friend lose his head to a grenade, you'll understand. When you have bullets aimed at YOU, you'll understand.

It's not a goddamn playground, it's a brutal, bloody, and useless flaw man has.

So go. Go on. I'm not going to stop you. I've been before, I know what it's like. The only way you'll ever know what it's like is if you experience it. And you think it's a game, but it's not, and I'll be damned if I'm going to sit here and be lectured by some trigger-happy kid who only thinks about glory, honor, and victory, the same old crap you hear a thousand times in movies. It's not a movie. I don't care if you're supposed to be the hero or if you're the most elite soldier in your outfit. If you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, you're dead. Pure and simple. No respawns, no health bar, no restart option, just death. One life: that's all you get.

[baggygreen]

Woa, settle SH!!!!!

Like it or not, every nation needs a military force constantly, whether that nation is at war or not. Each and every member of the military went to a school, and each kid needs a future. Not every role in the military is combat, you can gain all sorts of skills that can set you up for later in life!

Here, we dont have recruiters going into schools. About the most we can do is set up a stall and hope people who come are interested in learning more, not spittin on people.

I knew when i was 10 years old i was keen to join the military in some capacity, and honestly i dont see anything wrong in giving kids another potential career path to look at!

[Sea Demon]

A: My nephew is 15.
B: These guys are just looking for fresh fish.
C: For a **** war? Hell no, and this is also being done without consultation of the parents.



Come on SH. Don't be so ignorant. Nobody is forcing anybody to join the military. And the military cannot sign someone up who is not at least 18 without consent of the parents. There are no 16 year olds in Iraq. I don't know where you got that idea from. Hillary or Obama maybe? At any rate, you can argue the merits of the war all you want. And whether you like it or not, there are voters in the electorate that think it's necessary, and are unwilling to vote into office anybody who thinks we should leave immediately. Nobody said anything about war being a game. That crap is in your head. And it's a fallacious argument fit for middle school students. Not adults. Most people know war is hell, but when it needs to be fought, you have to have the recruits. I don't care if you think it's right or not. Most will disagree with you when it comes down to it.

The military is a job. Pure and simple. A very honorable and necessary one at that. And people do seek out employment there even on their own..believe it or not. I was one of them. In fact, I enjoyed my enlistment time so much, I became an officer after college. Your unrealistic views of it's seeming lack of necessity is pi$$-poor IMO. Even if you disagree with the war. We have boots on the ground. Congress voted for it. Our troops need support. And we need recruitment goals met. Despite your false propaganda of 15-16 year olds being shipped off to Iraq, you need to get over your pie-in-the-sky thinking.

[Peto]

So go. Go on. I'm not going to stop you. I've been before, I know what it's like. The only way you'll ever know what it's like is if you experience it. And you think it's a game, but it's not, and I'll be damned if I'm going to sit here and be lectured by some trigger-happy kid who only thinks about glory, honor, and victory, the same old crap you hear a thousand times in movies. It's not a movie. I don't care if you're supposed to be the hero or if you're the most elite soldier in your outfit. If you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, you're dead. Pure and simple. No respawns, no health bar, no restart option, just death. One life: that's all you get.

That about sums up what my son says too. "It's not anything like a movie". To the credit of the Recruiter who signed my son up, he came out to meet us (the parents) to tell us that if our son went through with it, he'd be heading to war. He earned my respect with that and when he said that he needed to do that so he could sleep at night. In the end, I let my son make the choice. And prayed I wouldn't regret it. That is still my prayer.

Targeting kids under 18 is just plain wrong though IMO. Even if they live through the conflict, their lives will be forever changed by what they've been through. And their childhood and best days already lost.

[Sea Demon]

Targeting kids under 18 is just plain wrong though IMO. Even if they live through the conflict, their lives will be forever changed by what they've been through. And their childhood and best days already lost.
Who the heck under 18 is in Iraq? Do you have any evidence that the military is shipping underage kids to Iraq?

[Peto]

Targeting kids under 18 is just plain wrong though IMO. Even if they live through the conflict, their lives will be forever changed by what they've been through. And their childhood and best days already lost.
Who the heck under 18 is in Iraq? Do you have any evidence that the military is shipping underage kids to Iraq?

Read up a couple posts. And I've heard of some recruiters reaching down pretty low in the age groups (high schools). No doubt though that parents would need to sign off on their enlistment.

I didn't say they were shipping them off. I said they're being targeted.

[Sea Demon]

Read up a couple posts. And I've heard of some recruiters reaching down pretty low in the age groups (high schools). No doubt though that parents would need to sign off on their enlistment.
There are no posts here that provide any evidence that underage kids are being sent to Iraq. None. Zero. Zip. If your knickers are in a wad over recruiters talking to kids that are thinking of their futures in high schools, what about police recruiters? How about Firefighters? Those 2 careers are dangerous. How about those in the Eastern Appalachians being recruited to work for mining companies? Do you think it's wrong for the military to offer themselves as a career choice? When I was in high school, they were there on "Career Day" every year? Is it wrong for the military to discuss a career with those who are planning their careers? Isn't the military a legitimate career choice for students when planning for their futures? Is the military even legitimate in your eyes at all?

[Sea Demon]

I didn't say they were shipping them off. I said they're being targeted.
Of course they are? So what? This is how it's always been. If they don't want to join, they won't. As I said above, many other dangerous professions "target" these same kids to work in their career fields. Should we only allow careers on campus's that are no risk professions? Geez, somebody might get killed in so many professions, why even offer students any choices whatsoever? If we went this route, the list of choices would be very short, I assure you.

[Peto]

There are no posts here that provide any evidence that underage kids are being sent to Iraq. None. Zero. Zip. If your knickers are in a wad over recruiters talking to kids that are thinking of their futures in high schools, what about police recruiters? How about Firefighters? Those 2 careers are dangerous. How about those in the Eastern Appalachians being recruited to work for mining companies? Do you think it's wrong for the military to offer themselves as a career choice? When I was in high school, they were there on "Career Day" every year? Is it wrong for the military to discuss a career with those who are planning their careers? Isn't the military a legitimate career choice for students when planning for their futures? Is the military even legitimate in your eyes at all?

My son serves in the military protecting your right to say what you want. And mine. I didn't say anywhere that underage kids are being shipped to Iraq. I said that they are being targeted. And I don't claim that as being anything new. Should the military be allowed to show up at career Day? Absolutely. But wait until Career day.

I didn't oppose my son joining the Army even though I probably could have stopped him. Being in his early 20's and giving me good reasons why he felt the need to join was enough. So I let him go. And he's been pretty banged up and will always wear the scars of war, external and internal.

What have you given?

[Stealth Hunter]

Sea Demon,



"Nobody said anything about war being a game. That crap is in your head."

A: It's not a game.
B: A questionnaire showed that 85% of the kids pictured war as a game and/or as the movies depict it. Just throwing out what kids think, nothing more.
C: You don't know what exactly war is like until you've been. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I don't care how old you are, you MUST experience it before you know.

"Most people know war is hell, but when it needs to be fought, you have to have the recruits. I don't care if you think it's right or not. Most will disagree with you when it comes down to it."

War is not Hell. I look back and think sometimes that Hell might be the better option than war. I'm aware that you need soldiers to fight a war, and it's a pity that it must come down to such measures, but we need to know when to go and when not to go. I think the war with Iraq was a mistake, a big mistake, but what's done is done.

"A very honorable and necessary one at that.

. . .

In fact, I enjoyed my enlistment time so much, I became an officer after college. Your unrealistic views of it's seeming lack of necessity is pi$$-poor IMO. Even if you disagree with the war. We have boots on the ground. Congress voted for it. Our troops need support. And we need recruitment goals met. Despite your false propaganda of 15-16 year olds being shipped off to Iraq, you need to get over your pie-in-the-sky thinking."

Honorable... perhaps, but that's a touchy issue. Just remember that when you do actually fight, there's no honor in war. Indeed necessary, but unfortunate for it to be necessary (as I said).

You went through military training, but have you ever had to shoot at somebody? Have you ever had to make a choice that has had the potential to get people killed OR has actually gotten people killed? Have you ever witnessed soldiers jumping out of a burning tank, their bodies engulfed in flames? Have you ever seen a casualty of war? Have you ever killed someone? If you've ever done one of these things, then you would not enjoy enlistment.

Lack of necessity? No. A military is important, but it's unfortunate we need them. However, what I do find to be unnecessary is sending recruiters into a school with a hundred or more kids trying to convince them that the military is the right way to go, no questions needed. That's low and just plain wrong.

Indeed we do. The war is on, and it will be on for quite a while, I'd imagine, and I will henceforth give my regards and support to the men fighting in it. However, I will not support a government that wishes to continue the war.

There's no need to send military recruiters into a middle school and a high school. That's not propaganda, it's a fact. They try to meet their quotas, and it's a lot quicker to use their influence on a bunch of clueless kids who are statistically more likely to join. With that said, I'll get the photos my nephew took and I'll post them in this thread when I do. The next time he brings his cell over, I'll show them to you and we'll put this issue to rest.

By the way, there was a debate on a year and a half ago when President Bush popped the idea out there that the recruitment age should be lowered from 18 to 16-year olds. Only lasted for about three days, but people were not happy over it. I never said they were shipping them off, now did I? I only said that they were trying to sway their minds into joining one way or the other.

Quit being a pompous ass, SD. You're just another person who fights with other people who disagree with your opinions and ideas. Seen it before. Nothing new or interesting. SS-DD.

[Sea Demon]

My son serves in the military protecting your right to say what you want. And mine.

Yeah, I served in the military as well.

I didn't say anywhere that underage kids are being shipped to Iraq. I said that they are being targeted.

I answered you above:

Of course they are? So what? This is how it's always been. If they don't want to join, they won't. As I said above, many other dangerous professions "target" these same kids to work in their career fields. Should we only allow careers on campus's that are no risk professions? Geez, somebody might get killed in so many professions, why even offer students any choices whatsoever? If we went this route, the list of choices would be very short, I assure you.

And I don't claim that as being anything new. Should the military be allowed to show up at career Day? Absolutely. But wait until Career day.

Should that apply to any career choice that could have any risks for personal injury or death as well? Should we make laws to that end? I would certainly love to see this type of legislation drafted and promoted by anyone.

What have you given?

What have you? I served for 12 years as both enlisted and officer in the USAF. I went through two difficult training regimens and was deployed to Spangdahlem AB in Germany. Went on to deployment to Turkey. Currently an inactive reserve component officer (IRR). I wish for your son's safe return, and am grateful for his choice and others like him. I admire those who are in uniformed service whether they are military, police, firefighter, etc.

[The WosMan]

There are no posts here that provide any evidence that underage kids are being sent to Iraq. None. Zero. Zip. If your knickers are in a wad over recruiters talking to kids that are thinking of their futures in high schools, what about police recruiters? How about Firefighters? Those 2 careers are dangerous. How about those in the Eastern Appalachians being recruited to work for mining companies? Do you think it's wrong for the military to offer themselves as a career choice? When I was in high school, they were there on "Career Day" every year? Is it wrong for the military to discuss a career with those who are planning their careers? Isn't the military a legitimate career choice for students when planning for their futures? Is the military even legitimate in your eyes at all?

My son serves in the military protecting your right to say what you want. And mine. I didn't say anywhere that underage kids are being shipped to Iraq. I said that they are being targeted. And I don't claim that as being anything new. Should the military be allowed to show up at career Day? Absolutely. But wait until Career day.

I didn't oppose my son joining the Army even though I probably could have stopped him. Being in his early 20's and giving me good reasons why he felt the need to join was enough. So I let him go. And he's been pretty banged up and will always wear the scars of war, external and internal.

What have you given?

I thank you and your son for your sacrifices but please do not use the chicken-hawk tactic as a cutting retort. Not only is it low but it is pretty much the equivelent of "oh yeah? Your mama!"

I could apply that logic to anything else and make it sound relevant. Do you oppose jobless benefits? Go work for the unemployement office. You want your house fire to be put out? Go be a volunteer firefighter, etc, etc. It's juvenile, opportunistic, and irrelevant.

It could be far worse. The government could activate the selective service and have a draft. I truely appreciate our volunteer military that sacrifice so we can have so much. I would expect colleges and universities to do the same.

Oh and Stealth Hunter, you're way out of line calling SD a pompus a$$. Quite mature. I would also like to see proof of the President wanting to lower the recruitment age. I think that is completely untrue.

[Stealth Hunter]

That's true, also. However, I think the people might turn on the government if they did initiate the draft (considering how unhappy they are with the war, let alone the government, at the moment).

[Sea Demon]

Sea Demon,

"Nobody said anything about war being a game. That crap is in your head."

A: It's not a game.
B: A questionnaire showed that 85% of the kids pictured war as a game and/or as the movies depict it. Just throwing out what kids think, nothing more.
C: You don't know what exactly war is like until you've been. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I don't care how old you are, you MUST experience it before you know.

What questionnaire?


War is not Hell. I look back and think sometimes that Hell might be the better option than war. I'm aware that you need soldiers to fight a war, and it's a pity that it must come down to such measures, but we need to know when to go and when not to go. I think the war with Iraq was a mistake, a big mistake, but what's done is done.

Well, I'm sure it must have been rough for you if you were an Iranian officer during the Iran/Iraq war. But you'll have to forgive me if I don't see how that relates to maintaining a military and sources of recruitment. Nor do I see how your personal views regarding the Iraq war (the USA's) plays into military recruitment. Congress voted for it, the electorate doesn't support immediate withdrawal, and in the meantime the military is recruiting. Nobody has to join. Get over it.


Lack of necessity? No. A military is important, but it's unfortunate we need them. However, what I do find to be unnecessary is sending recruiters into a school with a hundred or more kids trying to convince them that the military is the right way to go, no questions needed. That's low and just plain wrong.
This is all pie-in-the-sky. The military is a job. It has it's recruiters. Many other employment opportunities are hazardous as well. Where is your outrage over their recruitment efforts? Either you think the military is legitimate or you don't.

Indeed we do. The war is on, and it will be on for quite a while, I'd imagine, and I will henceforth give my regards and support to the men fighting in it. However, I will not support a government that wishes to continue the war.
This seems to go against everything you portrayed from your earlier posts.

There's no need to send military recruiters into a middle school and a high school. That's not propaganda, it's a fact. They try to meet their quotas, and it's a lot quicker to use their influence on a bunch of clueless kids who are statistically more likely to join. With that said, I'll get the photos my nephew took and I'll post them in this thread when I do. The next time he brings his cell over, I'll show them to you and we'll put this issue to rest.
I think you grossly underestimate the people who actually join our military.

By the way, there was a debate on a year and a half ago when President Bush popped the idea out there that the recruitment age should be lowered from 18 to 16-year olds. Only lasted for about three days, but people were not happy over it.
Show me, don't tell me.

I never said they were shipping them off, now did I? I only said that they were trying to sway their minds into joining one way or the other.
That's what it looked like to me. But anyway. Now in your mind, they are trying to "sway" people into joining the military. That's pretty much how recruitment works anywhere and in any field. As I posed to another poster, is it wrong for recruiters from any hazardous occupation to try to compel students to seek employment from them as well? This is just so ridiculous. And for those screaming for the military not to offer employment opportunities is just illogical/emotional clap-trap.

Quit being a pompous ass, SD. You're just another person who fights with other people who disagree with your opinions and ideas. Seen it before. Nothing new or interesting. SS-DD.
So you're offended that somebody challenges your views? What you describe above is debate....not fighting. You live in the wrong country if you don't like your views challenged.

[Peto]

What have you given?

What have you? I served for 12 years as both enlisted and officer in the USAF. I went through two difficult training regimens and was deployed to Spangdahlem AB in Germany. Went on to deployment to Turkey. Currently an inactive reserve component officer (IRR). I wish for your son's safe return, and am grateful for his choice and others like him. I admire those who are in uniformed service whether they are military, police, firefighter, etc.

My response about "what have you given" comes across as flipant and actually wasn't intended that way. My apologies. Sometimes I hit the period key a little too quick (without reading what I wrote and how it comes across). And I do thank you for your service.

Your arguments are solid from your perspective. And I'll admit it's a sensitive subject for me. As far as any company recruiting for dangerous jobs--I can't argue that point either. But let them all come on Career Day. I just don't care for the level of "interest" the military is paying to students on non-career days.

I come from a military family. My father is a WWII vet, my brother is a retired Army Officer and now my son is in. I tried to join the Navy out of High School but due to a medical condition, I was told to go play my bass guitar ;).

Bottom line: I don't think recruiters targeting teens well before graduation is good. I don't agree with the Iraq War and never did. Those are my opinions. I can see your point from your perspective. And you have a right to your opinion.

The only real contention I have is that you thought I was claiming that we are sending kids into the war zone. I didn't.

[Peto]

I thank you and your son for your sacrifices but please do not use the chicken-hawk tactic as a cutting retort. Not only is it low but it is pretty much the equivelent of "oh yeah? Your mama!"


Point taken and quite correct. A fine example of not reading what I wrote and thinking it through before I hit the submit button.

[Sea Demon]

Bottom line: I don't think recruiters targeting teens well before graduation is good. I don't agree with the Iraq War and never did. Those are my opinions. I can see your point from your perspective. And you have a right to your opinion.


Oh. OK. Well, in this regard, I guess we just have to disagree on friendly terms then. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[Peto]

Bottom line: I don't think recruiters targeting teens well before graduation is good. I don't agree with the Iraq War and never did. Those are my opinions. I can see your point from your perspective. And you have a right to your opinion.


Oh. OK. Well, in this regard, I guess we just have to disagree on friendly terms then. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

That works for me ;)

[The WosMan]

I thank you and your son for your sacrifices but please do not use the chicken-hawk tactic as a cutting retort. Not only is it low but it is pretty much the equivelent of "oh yeah? Your mama!"


Point taken and quite correct. A fine example of not reading what I wrote and thinking it through before I hit the submit button.

Thank you. You are a gentleman and a scholar. ;)

[Peto]

I thank you and your son for your sacrifices but please do not use the chicken-hawk tactic as a cutting retort. Not only is it low but it is pretty much the equivelent of "oh yeah? Your mama!"


Point taken and quite correct. A fine example of not reading what I wrote and thinking it through before I hit the submit button.

Thank you. You are a gentleman and a scholar. ;)

Thank You for pointing it out. And the scholar bit--that's all relative :lol:!!!

[baggygreen]

Feel the love <3:D

I still fail to see a significant difference between military recruiters giving kids something to think about and say, accounting companies offering scholarships? which, i ask you, is worse!!!!!:lol: Seriously though, for mine they should be allowed to do it, til i see an argument containing proof that sways me.

I still think its wrong to abuse those in the military for doing their jobs...

[Stealth Hunter]

There's no need to send military recruiters into a middle school and a high school. That's not propaganda, it's a fact. They try to meet their quotas, and it's a lot quicker to use their influence on a bunch of clueless kids who are statistically more likely to join. With that said, I'll get the photos my nephew took and I'll post them in this thread when I do. The next time he brings his cell over, I'll show them to you and we'll put this issue to rest.
I think you grossly underestimate the people who actually join our military.

By the way, there was a debate on a year and a half ago when President Bush popped the idea out there that the recruitment age should be lowered from 18 to 16-year olds. Only lasted for about three days, but people were not happy over it.
Show me, don't tell me.

Well, the majority of people who join our military do it because of financial reasons. The more common ones that you hear about typically are not the main priorities people take into account when they decide to join the military.

http://ezinearticles.com/?10-Extraordinary-Reasons-Why-People-Join-the-Military&id=151112

I had difficulty believing some of the stuff that article said, but after doing more research on it, it's actually pretty shocking. Here's another interesting topic on the subject:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_do_people_join_the_military_to_serve_their_cou ntry_even_though_they_can_die


That last one I was a bit confused on. It was actually lowering the fitness level required by the army to accept a recruit whilst raising the age at which recruits could register to 42 years to 18 years. Here's a link to it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y08H6Bbm1kY


Otherwise, I'm done dragging on with this argument. If we're not careful, the mods are going to be on our asses, and we don't want that, do we?

[Peto]

...I'm done dragging on with this argument. If we're not careful, the mods are going to be on our asses, and we don't want that, do we?

A Hearty "Hear! Hear!" Seriously, this is definitely one of those 2 sides of the coin issue with good arguments from both angles. And sometimes agreeing to disagree is a good thing as long as everyone remains on good terms.

Salute to All!

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Kinds surprising, isn't it? How hateful the peace-lovers are.
Ya gotta love those mixed messages they send. ;) I'm sooo glad those hideous fringed jackets and coats never made a fashion comeback.

http://neptoon.homestead.com/Molotov-Molly.jpg

I'm saving that. Looks like a certain someone close to me :hmm::hmm:

*quickly edits* But without the unibrow.

[Stealth Hunter]

Here's an interesting video (ignore McCarthy):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg2CSNczMmY

:roll:

[Sea Demon]

Well, the majority of people who join our military do it because of financial reasons. The more common ones that you hear about typically are not the main priorities people take into account when they decide to join the military.

http://ezinearticles.com/?10-Extraordinary-Reasons-Why-People-Join-the-Military&id=151112


Your taking of this article as gospel shows you have no understanding of the people who join our military. The person who wrote this article (Ms. Murtha) seems to have her opinion. But her opinion doesn't measure up to my own experiences. Many people who joined left better paying jobs behind. I myself certainly could have sought out a higher paying job after college, instead I chose the military. Sounds like most of the people that I actually served with.

You may have a decent understanding of the two-bit Iranian military that couldn't defeat Iraq in 8 years, but you have no understanding of the first rate US military that completely decapitated it in 3 days.


I had difficulty believing some of the stuff that article said, but after doing more research on it, it's actually pretty shocking. Here's another interesting topic on the subject:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_do_people_join_the_military_to_serve_their_cou ntry_even_though_they_can_die


This is shocking?!?!? This is unsourced Internet nonsense. This is not doing any research whatsoever. This is laziness on your part. Your idea of research is finding the first article on the web that says what you want to hear. Do you actually talk to people who have or do currently serve in the US military? That's actually a good source of research.

That last one I was a bit confused on. It was actually lowering the fitness level required by the army to accept a recruit whilst raising the age at which recruits could register to 42 years to 18 years. Here's a link to it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y08H6Bbm1kY


The problem is SH, you came into my country, and you began listening to left-wing Democrats about the nature of this country. Along the way, you have been made to believe the stupidity of Democrat activists. I find it sad that there are foreign people who come into the USA for whatever reason, and waste their time believing the false ideas and spin driven by America hating leftists. It's a shame really. The above youtube clip is from a parody item that relates to military recruiters changing requirements to meet current goals. It's brought to you by a spinning lefty who has an agenda against fox news. Nothing more than that really.

[sonar732]

Speaking of Foxnews...

They've got a video of police in riot gear clashing with the protesters.

and some pictures here (http://www.zombietime.com/berkeley_marines_2-12-2008/part_2/).

[SmokinTep]

I say screw that city. Don't want Marines there, no problem, we should stop any federal funds that city gets (heard that this has come up in Congress). Also, if they ever have a disaster or something and need Marines or National Guard, we tell them ..........Sorry.

[bradclark1]

Well, the majority of people who join our military do it because of financial reasons. The more common ones that you hear about typically are not the main priorities people take into account when they decide to join the military.

http://ezinearticles.com/?10-Extraordinary-Reasons-Why-People-Join-the-Military&id=151112


Your taking of this article as gospel shows you have no understanding of the people who join our military. The person who wrote this article (Ms. Murtha) seems to have her opinion. But her opinion doesn't measure up to my own experiences. Many people who joined left better paying jobs behind. I myself certainly could have sought out a higher paying job after college, instead I chose the military. Sounds like most of the people that I actually served with.
Actually those ten reasons are pretty spot on at least as far as Army goes and probably the other services also. Sure there are some that have a calling but I'd say thats in the low single digits.


You may have a decent understanding of the two-bit Iranian military that couldn't defeat Iraq in 8 years, but you have no understanding of the first rate US military that completely decapitated it in 3 days.
I'm not so sure you do either. Maybe it was just the arm you were in, I don't know.


I had difficulty believing some of the stuff that article said, but after doing more research on it, it's actually pretty shocking. Here's another interesting topic on the subject:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_do_people_join_the_military_to_serve_their_cou ntry_even_though_they_can_die


This is shocking?!?!? This is unsourced Internet nonsense. This is not doing any research whatsoever. This is laziness on your part. Your idea of research is finding the first article on the web that says what you want to hear. Do you actually talk to people who have or do currently serve in the US military? That's actually a good source of research.
Pretty close. Because of what I was my kids wouldn't touch the military with a ten foot pole but if they wanted to at this present time I'd make sure they understood what they were getting into but I wouldn't stop them. I can guarantee this, perceptions change and I can even give a reason for high retention. When you become part of a meshed team it's not about dying, it's about not letting the guys down. When it comes time for ETS (estimated time of separation) even if you don't agree with what you are doing you will reenlist because it feels like you are walking off on them and nobody as good as you will fill the space. Some of my men who were E-3's and E-4's are now the senior NCO's leading the way. Even though I disagree with the invasion I would give anything, anything at all to be there with them because nobody was better than I was at taking care of my men.
Kind of off tangent but......


That last one I was a bit confused on. It was actually lowering the fitness level required by the army to accept a recruit whilst raising the age at which recruits could register to 42 years to 18 years. Here's a link to it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y08H6Bbm1kY


The problem is SH, you came into my country, and you began listening to left-wing Democrats about the nature of this country. Along the way, you have been made to believe the stupidity of Democrat activists. I find it sad that there are foreign people who come into the USA for whatever reason, and waste their time believing the false ideas and spin driven by America hating leftists. It's a shame really. The above youtube clip is from a parody item that relates to military recruiters changing requirements to meet current goals. It's brought to you by a spinning lefty who has an agenda against fox news. Nothing more than that really.
You are one sick puppy Sea Demon. Believe it or not not everyone is a Democrat or Republican. You can be left or right leaning and still not be either. I know thats hard for you to grasp but try it. Try not to insult people just because they disagree with you. Everything is not of a political bent in life. Stealth Hunter has been through what you obviously haven't and have no concept of so give him the respect he is due.

[Sea Demon]

Actually those ten reasons are pretty spot on at least as far as Army goes and probably the other services also. Sure there are some that have a calling but I'd say thats in the low single digits.


Well actually, some of those reasons are valid. And what's wrong with any of it. But I don't think the financial reasons are always the most important reason people seek. Although G.I. Bill and bonuses are good, there are other motivational factors as well. It's the spin that, everybody is in the military because they have no alternatives. Which is totally bogus. I've seen it portrayed that way. And SH seemed to be making that assumption.

I'm not so sure you do either. Maybe it was just the arm you were in, I don't know.

Based on many of your responses, I'm not so sure about you. As far as I know, I'm more recent than you. And I was around people who were in the sandbox. And I still know people who were there just recently.

Pretty close. Because of what I was my kids wouldn't touch the military with a ten foot pole but if they wanted to at this present time I'd make sure they understood what they were getting into but I wouldn't stop them. I can guarantee this, perceptions change and I can even give a reason for high retention. When you become part of a meshed team it's not about dying, it's about not letting the guys down. When it comes time for ETS (estimated time of separation) even if you don't agree with what you are doing you will reenlist because it feels like you are walking off on them and nobody as good as you will fill the space. Some of my men who were E-3's and E-4's are now the senior NCO's leading the way. Even though I disagree with the invasion I would give anything, anything at all to be there with them because nobody was better than I was at taking care of my men.
Kind of off tangent but......

I'm actually third generation military from my Dad's side. Perhaps you didn't have a good experience yourself. I didn't have to return to the military after college, yet I did. I would do it all over again if I had to make the choice. There was good and bad. It's too bad you've passed on such a bad perception about it. Of course I don't know what your situation was like, but I had bumps in the road myself. Leaving my wife in California, while I was scrambling around from Laughlin, to IFF, then DM, and eventually Germany was rough on us. Then eventually moving her out, and deploying 3 days after her arrival. Maybe I'm just not a whiner about it. Most of those who served with me, just did it. And didn't complain. Other than the customary, "I can't wait to get home" stuff. And during times, there were people I had to deal with myself. But all in all, it was good to be there. And I would support my own kids if they choose to join later in their lives. It is something not to take lightly when joining, and there are risks. I just think too many people are trying to underestimate the people who join, and confuse their reasoning. And that's not right. In many ways, they seem to seek to delegitimize the mission of the military including it's recruiters. I will always defend those who seek to recruit out the best for our military. And I will spit on those who impede it for the sake of some sort of "personal belief" system. We need a military, the military needs recruits. I have no love for those who whine about it, or try to marginalize it.

You are one sick puppy Sea Demon. Believe it or not not everyone is a Democrat or Republican. You can be left or right leaning and still not be either. I know thats hard for you to grasp but try it. Try not to insult people just because they disagree with you. Everything is not of a political bent in life. Stealth Hunter has been through what you obviously haven't and have no concept of so give him the respect he is due.

And you have no concept of reality. Yes, I watch, and can see who's saying what. I realize you like to try and blur the lines, and believe all kinds of goofy stuff like Global Warming and such, but it doesn't work with me. I know it troubles you when people point it out. But too bad. It will be pointed out, so get used to it. Not everything is politically bent, but it's not hard to see where alot of this stuff comes from. Especially when you can quote people. Most of us have all been through rough stuff and have had to make sacrifices. But I don't use any of that to try and gain a pedestal to stand on. As if that's a good way to stop people from discussing things. I feel it is a shame, that so many people are made to believe so many rotten things. I won't say any names, but some people say things that sound like they're fresh out of brochures that I've seen from little "demonstrations". And those are political. Quit whining brad, it's tiring.

[bradclark1]

Well actually, some of those reasons are valid. And what's wrong with any of it. But I don't think the financial reasons are always the most important reason people seek. Although G.I. Bill and bonuses are good, there are other motivational factors as well. It's the spin that, everybody is in the military because they have no alternatives. Which is totally bogus. I've seen it portrayed that way. And SH seemed to be making that assumption.
There have been a few news shows (60 Minutes, Nightline, etc) over the last few years that have shown that the military puts a lot into recruiting in depressed areas which on a recruiting stand point makes a lot of sense. They'll go where they can get the bodies. Not everybody agree's with doing business that way but it works.
Based on many of your responses, I'm not so sure about you. As far as I know, I'm more recent than you. And I was around people who were in the sandbox. And I still know people who were there just recently.
I have to go to the hospital every two weeks, sometimes weekly. I BS with the kids that are missing arms, legs or have a hard time mentaly dealing with the war. I stay aware of Army business. Where I live is saturated with active navy, marines and full time Guard and Reserves I think I'm still plugged in.
I'm actually third generation military from my Dad's side. Perhaps you didn't have a good experience yourself. I didn't have to return to the military after college, yet I did. I would do it all over again if I had to make the choice. There was good and bad. It's too bad you've passed on such a bad perception about it.
It was because of what I was not how I projected it. Gone all the time, when I was back they never saw me anyway, blah, blah, blah. Usual stuff. You support your kids in any endevour even if it's one being a damn photographer.
I just think too many people are trying to underestimate the people who join, and confuse their reasoning. And that's not right. In many ways, they seem to seek to delegitimize the mission of the military including it's recruiters. Thats been happening since Roman times and it will still be happening when we have space marines.
The military is over a million strong and there are a million reasons for joining. If people disagree with the war they are going to view recruiting as bad and that kids are being taken advantage of. One equals the other. Unless the average person has lived around the military they have no concept of what it's like besides what they see in the news or movies. The people with attitudes are few and if you can educate them.... but it's not worth getting in a pissing contest over. I look at it like this. With my plates and base stickers I have got five speed warnings and no tickets or just the time of a chat. You get discounts in hotels, car rentals and I get a free wax at the car wash. The people that matter care. The rest? The sacrifices you have made have given them the right to voice there opinion. Democracy in action. Good or bad.
And you have no concept of reality. Yes, I watch, and can see who's saying what. I realize you like to try and blur the lines, and believe all kinds of goofy stuff like Global Warming and such, but it doesn't work with me. I know it troubles you when people point it out. But too bad. It will be pointed out, so get used to it. Not everything is politically bent, but it's not hard to see where alot of this stuff comes from. Especially when you can quote people. Most of us have all been through rough stuff and have had to make sacrifices. But I don't use any of that to try and gain a pedestal to stand on. As if that's a good way to stop people from discussing things. I feel it is a shame, that so many people are made to believe so many rotten things. I won't say any names, but some people say things that sound like they're fresh out of brochures that I've seen from little "demonstrations". And those are political. Quit whining brad, it's tiring.
It's not about being on a pedestal it's about respecting a persons views without trying to belittle them. All you do is make yourself look small. You are third generation American so your grandparents were one of those foreigners not too long ago. As ex-military you should respect an combat vet irrigardless of what country he's from. If he's anti-war he's earned the right to be. If this is his adopted country he has a right to a voice without being affiliated with a damn political party you dislike.

[Sea Demon]

There have been a few news shows (60 Minutes, Nightline, etc) over the last few years that have shown that the military puts a lot into recruiting in depressed areas which on a recruiting stand point makes a lot of sense. They'll go where they can get the bodies. Not everybody agree's with doing business that way but it works.

Yeah, but it's all in how you look at it. I'm aware the military looks into areas that are not as affluent then others. But they also set up shop in affluent areas. They go to where they think are the best area to get recruits. I'm sorry, but there are all walks of life that join the military from alot of backgrounds. Believe it or not, some have actually come from rich backgrounds. People crying about military recruiters in less affluent areas is simply an emotionally based way to to address a make believe problem. I wonder how many p[eople from these less affluent areas have received training and direction from a military career where the alternative may have been the street. People need to lose the emotional illogic, and see the whole picture. Not just what they want.

I have to go to the hospital every two weeks, sometimes weekly. I BS with the kids that are missing arms, legs or have a hard time mentaly dealing with the war. I stay aware of Army business. Where I live is saturated with active navy, marines and full time Guard and Reserves I think I'm still plugged in.

Ahh. I see where you're getting your picture from. That is surely a dreadful sight, and is very sad to see. But it's not indicative of the entire picture. Military professions can lead to this. I give people enough credit to understand that if they join, they run the risk of this happening. I went through this type of risk assessment for myself when I joined. I think most who are in the pipeline to join seriously understand this. My enlisted job wasn't too hazardous, but my job as an officer had the potential and I knew there could be consequences. Very sad for our veterans who go through this. I know we should take care of them alot better than what they get.

The military is over a million strong and there are a million reasons for joining. If people disagree with the war they are going to view recruiting as bad and that kids are being taken advantage of. One equals the other. Unless the average person has lived around the military they have no concept of what it's like besides what they see in the news or movies. The people with attitudes are few and if you can educate them.... but it's not worth getting in a pissing contest over.

....................

The sacrifices you have made have given them the right to voice there opinion. Democracy in action. Good or bad.

True, but I'll still challenge anyone who craps on military recruiters for alot of these stupid and false reasons. They have a right to voice their nonsense, and I have a right to fire back. And I will. There is no question about that. But your above statement is what I've been talking about all along. People don't understand, yet latch on to falsities from movies, print articles, CNN, or other sources and project false views about the people who join our military and the mission of recruiters. To me, the pissing contest is warranted, and I will get involved every time. When they want to debate the merits seriously, and actually take the time to do their homework, things will be much easier. It's these falsehoods, and assumptions by the uninformed I challenge. It's my right. Democracy in action. And I will participate for the good guys.


It's not about being on a pedestal it's about respecting a persons views without trying to belittle them. All you do is make yourself look small. You are third generation American so your grandparents were one of those foreigners not too long ago. As ex-military you should respect an combat vet irrigardless of what country he's from. If he's anti-war he's earned the right to be. If this is his adopted country he has a right to a voice without being affiliated with a damn political party you dislike.

In almost every thread you are a part of, you are very disrespectful of other viewpoints. But that's neither here nor there. But I guess you have a special exemption for yourself. I do not respect agenda driven conspiratorial theorists or those who push false political propaganda for the purposes of aggravation or worse. Period. My grandparents did come over to this country from both sides of my family. But the difference was, they came to be Americans. First and foremost. They didn't come over here to spit on the country, it's laws, it's cultural aspects, or it's people in uniform. Like I said, the same things I hear some people say, is exactly the same kind of rhetoric I hear from a certain political party with a "D" in front of it. Like it or not, it does. And it's rotten to the core. How many demoralizing statements about our military come from that direction? And now, we're going to allow for them to crap on recruiters? I don't think so. And I will point it out every time. True, everybody has a right to their opinion. But that doesn't exclude me and others who think the same way. I think that's where you go wrong. You may not like to hear other points of view supportive of the nations military or supportive of our war effort, but get used to it. Whining about it won't shut anybody up.

[bradclark1]

People need to lose the emotional illogic, and see the whole picture. Not just what they want.
Or what you want them to see? Thats the whole problem.
Ahh. I see where you're getting your picture from. No you don't because I haven't said any he saids, she saids. I'm just aware of whats going on within the army. The only place I talk politics is here. Don't feel sorry for these guys they aren't out for sympathy.
But it's not indicative of the entire picture. Military professions can lead to this. Not sure what you mean. Indicative of what?
True, but I'll still challenge anyone who craps on military recruiters for alot of these stupid and false reasons. They have a right to voice their nonsense, and I have a right to fire back. And I will. To you it's nonsense but not to them and because they don't see it as you want them to gives you the right to voice your opinions not your insults.
People don't understand, yet latch on to falsities from movies, print articles, CNN, or other sources and project false views about the people who join our military and the mission of recruiters. To me, the pissing contest is warranted, and I will get involved every time. Look, it's a fact the military puts a lot into recruitment of depressed area's. It's a logical place to go. They give a huge bonus for combat arms. An 11 series mos (infantry) can get anywhere from $4,000 to $16,000 plus education benefits just for enlisting. That's a hell of an incentive if you live in a small dead end town in the middle of Kansas. They aren't going to set up an office in the Hampton's. Recruiting Command will do what it takes and go where it takes to fill the ranks. If people are upset about it "oh well". It makes no sense to gloss over a reality just because you don't like people complaining about it. Reality is Reality.
In almost every thread you are a part of, you are very disrespectful of other viewpoints. No, just to those that try to belittle or insult to try and force their viewpoint. That just about narrows it down to just you. Waste Gate isn't here anymore.
I do not respect agenda driven conspiratorial theorists or those who push false political propaganda for the purposes of aggravation or worse. Period. And anyone who disagrees with you is guilty of one of those crimes?
They didn't come over here to spit on the country, it's laws, it's cultural aspects, or it's people in uniform. Like I said, the same things I hear some people say, is exactly the same kind of rhetoric I hear from a certain political party with a "D" in front of it. Like it or not, it does. And it's rotten to the core.
I haven't seen SH spit on anything. He voiced opposition to the war and recruitment issues. In America you have the right to do that.
I think that's where you go wrong. You may not like to hear other points of view supportive of the nations military or supportive of our war effort, but get used to it. I'm always open to other viewpoints. Remember, it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

[Iceman]

TP, great cartoon.

Here's another lovely story:

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080209/NEWS16/802090394

Before he left downtown for Perrysburg Township, Major O'Neill said he was not sure what type of training, if any, his unit could undertake without access to downtown Toledo.

"But we're Marines," Major O'Neill said. "We'll adapt and overcome.":up:

[Sea Demon]

Or what you want them to see? Thats the whole problem.
No it's not. People have taken this issue, and have emotionally driven it to the point where Liberals in Berkeley want the Marines out of their city as if it's a crime foir the military to recruit people. Or it's somehow a crime for people in a liberal city to seek out a career in the military. I see you'll never understand the issue.

No you don't because I haven't said any he saids, she saids. I'm just aware of whats going on within the army. The only place I talk politics is here. Don't feel sorry for these guys they aren't out for sympathy.
But I do think it's a shame if people are injured as a result of war casualty. I know they want no sympathy. In many ways, that's one of the qualities I admire most about many of our military personnel. And it reinforces my point that the people in the military understand what they face. And yes, if that's all you see, it's not hard to see your own cynicism.

Not sure what you mean. Indicative of what?
Injuries and causalties that the media portrays does not give you an indication of the entire picture of the military experience. Nor does it give you the whole picture of the people who have been to Iraq. I know that's the focus that drive the issue for some people. People like that can't seem to see the entire thing for what it is.

To you it's nonsense but not to them and because they don't see it as you want them to gives you the right to voice your opinions not your insults.
If people are falsely slandering the mission of military recruiters then yes, it is nonsense. It's not nonsense to them because they don't take the time to learn about what the recruiters do. They don't take the time to understand why people truly seek out careers in the military. Instead many of these cry-babies log into DU, DailyKos or other places of stupidity and latch on to whatever crap comes out of there. People like that deserve the ridicule they are likely to receive.


Look, it's a fact the military puts a lot into recruitment of depressed area's. It's a logical place to go. They give a huge bonus for combat arms. An 11 series mos (infantry) can get anywhere from $4,000 to $16,000 plus education benefits just for enlisting. That's a hell of an incentive if you live in a small dead end town in the middle of Kansas. They aren't going to set up an office in the Hampton's. Recruiting Command will do what it takes and go where it takes to fill the ranks. If people are upset about it "oh well". It makes no sense to gloss over a reality just because you don't like people complaining about it. Reality is Reality.
And how many people have got themselves a career in a miliary profession where the alternative may have been a street gang, drugs, or worse? How many of these people have benefited from things like GI Bill, and bonuses? How many have received technical skills that can be transferable to civilian employers? You don't think there is anybody serving from an affluent background? To you, everybody in the military is there out of economic desperation? I don't think you're plugged in at all dude.

No, just to those that try to belittle or insult to try and force their viewpoint. That just about narrows it down to just you. Waste Gate isn't here anymore.
You constantly try and trash every thread I'm a part of, and are a prime example of attempting to force your viewpoint. Your fixation on me is very flattering, but you waste your time. I think you need to look in the mirror when discussing those that try and force viewpoints. You never let a persons opinion rest. In any of these back and forth sessions I've had with you, it's always you that starts it. And then you get mad when there is a rebuttal. Which you should very much expect. I don't know how many threads I make a statement, and there you are with your little man complex a day later. And leave later with nothing to show for it.


I haven't seen SH spit on anything. He voiced opposition to the war and recruitment issues. In America you have the right to do that.
I never said he spit on anything. But he does seem to listen to those that do. BTW, in America, you have a right to voice your support of the military, the war, and military recruiters. I don't think those that don't support these things truly understand that angle very well.

I'm always open to other viewpoints. Remember, it's not what you say, it's how you say it.
You've never proven that. You're one of the most intolerant of opposing opinion here. You can't seem to handle it when somebody voices anything in opposition to what you think is a truth. And you get angry and whine when they fire back in your direction after your own snide remarks have failed to have any impact.

[bradclark1]

No it's not. People have taken this issue, and have emotionally driven it to the point where Liberals in Berkeley want the Marines out of their city as if it's a crime foir the military to recruit people. Or it's somehow a crime for people in a liberal city to seek out a career in the military. I see you'll never understand the issue.
When has Berkeley not been anti military in it's history? They want the marines out? Fine then the local establishment and university should forfet all federal moneys. Simple as that. Then see how quick they want the recruiters back.
At an y rate, you don't think there is anybody serving from an affluent background? Everybody there is in the military out of economic desperation?
What I said was you won't see a recruiter in the Hamptons. I'm sure there are people from an affluent background serving. No, what I said was "That's a hell of an incentive if you live in a small dead end town in the middle of Kansas." Where am I wrong in that? You don't think Recruiting Command doesn't go where they think they can get the people? I'm trying to understand where you see personal desperation in that. In fact I'm trying to understand why you seem insensed over it. You don't think they target rural America?
You constantly try and trash every thread I'm a part of, and are a prime example of attempting to force your viewpoint. Your fixation on me is very flattering, but you waste your time. I think you need to look in the mirror when discussing those that try and force viewpoints. You never let a persons opinion rest. I don't know how many threads I make a statement, and there you are with your little man complex a day later. And leave later with nothing to show for it.
What I do is call you on your insulting behaviour. You don't like it? Don't give me a reason. See your second to last sentence in this paragraph? It's beyond you to not try and insult when you percive doesn't agree. Who's got the little man complex? You can't even carry a conversation without it.
I never said he spit on anything. But he does seem to listen to those that do. BTW, in America, you have a right to voice your support of the military, the war, and military recruiters. I don't think those that don't support these things truly understand that angle very well.
You are free to listen to who you want to. You are also free to voice. You are not free to attempt to insult or belittle when they don't agree with you. You should try it. They are entitled to their opinions.
You've never proven that. You're one of the most intolerant of opposing opinion here. You can't seem to handle it when somebody voices anything in opposition to what you think is a truth. And you get angry and whine when they fire back in your direction after your own snide remarks have failed to have any impact.
I'm intolerant of bigots and that is what I see you as. You don't think so? Look through your prior posts and see if you can find one where your aren't trying to call someone a name who disagrees with you. It's not what you say, it's how you say it.

[Sea Demon]

When has Berkeley not been anti military in it's history? They want the marines out? Fine then the local establishment and university should forfet all federal moneys. Simple as that. Then see how quick they want the recruiters back.
Precisely my point. And the anti-military sentiment is not limited to Berkeley either. In fact it's most places where Democrats seem to congregate. But that point aside, it is still driven by emotionally based false premises.

What I said was you won't see a recruiter in the Hamptons. I'm sure there are people from an affluent background serving. No, what I said was "That's a hell of an incentive if you live in a small dead end town in the middle of Kansas." Where am I wrong in that? You don't think Recruiting Command doesn't go where they think they can get the people? I'm trying to understand where you see personal desperation in that. In fact I'm trying to understand why you seem insensed over it. You don't think they target rural America?
Your of course trying to set your argument differently now. But your right about one thing. Of course I'm incensed that people are trying to denigrate the mission of recruiters by making them look like their doing something wrong by.....recruiting people. And driving the aregument by saying they're immorally targeting the "poor". I don't understand your need to argue the point like you're doing. It's a dead end for you. They recruit and take in people from all walks of life, and all income levels. They may not be in the Hamptons, but they are down the road 4 miles from here in a very affluent area. Why the argument? It's just pathetic to begin with.

What I do is call you on your insulting behaviour. You don't like it? Don't give me a reason. See your second to last sentence in this paragraph? It's beyond you to not try and insult when you percive doesn't agree. Who's got the little man complex? You can't even carry a conversation without it.
No you don't. You trash threads because you don't allow for opinion that differs from yours. In fact, the insults always start from your direction. The dialogue always begins from you as well. Seems like you want to spout, and allow no rebuttal. You give rudeness, and are shocked when you get some back at you. Grow up. I would say I got it right when I see what ails you in complex. You simply cannot enter a thread where I am and allow a different opinion, and then you cry. You're too much.

IYou are free to listen to who you want to. You are also free to voice. You are not free to attempt to insult or belittle when they don't agree with you. You should try it. They are entitled to their opinions.
Same goes for you. As a matter of fact, I would recommend you go to the section where the "ignore" button is and put me on it. You're the very last thing on my mind when I type something, very inconsequential, and only notice you when you come in to a topic like a hurricane on a mission. Since you can't handle it, this is what I suggest to you. I don't need to put you on an ignore list, because I can handle a point of view that differs from mine. I see many statements you make that I can address, but choose not to because you can't handle it. That's why it's always you that starts these things.

I'm intolerant of bigots and that is what I see you as. You don't think so? Look through your prior posts and see if you can find one where your aren't trying to call someone a name who disagrees with you. It's not what you say, it's how you say it.
The bigotry I've seen in you is quite remarkable as well. You are also a troublemaker as you cannot enter a thread where there is differing opinion, without turning it into a mission for you. You have disproven your last statement very well by your prior actions. But of course, you are the type that cannot see your own faults. That is obvious.

[Sea Demon]

I'm intolerant of bigots
You certainly have no problem with bigotry against our military.

[AVGWarhawk]

Targeting kids under 18 is just plain wrong though IMO. Even if they live through the conflict, their lives will be forever changed by what they've been through. And their childhood and best days already lost.
Who the heck under 18 is in Iraq? Do you have any evidence that the military is shipping underage kids to Iraq?
The youngest to die in Iraq was 17 and just this past year. His mother signed the papers so he could go. Noted in Time Magazine.

What we fail to see here with the protesters is the fact they are in essence protesting Iraq itself. I suspect if the US had troops from a foreign land coming on our shores looking to rape and pillage, they would change their tune very fast.

[Sea Demon]

You are one sick puppy Sea Demon.
Here's your intro into this topic. Very nice, huh? What an absolute angel you are.:lol::roll::lol:

[Sea Demon]

Targeting kids under 18 is just plain wrong though IMO. Even if they live through the conflict, their lives will be forever changed by what they've been through. And their childhood and best days already lost.
Who the heck under 18 is in Iraq? Do you have any evidence that the military is shipping underage kids to Iraq?
The youngest to die in Iraq was 17 and just this past year. His mother signed the papers so he could go. Noted in Time Magazine.

Right, but the military cannot just sign up somebody who is under 18 on their own. In other words, an adult is the final arbiter of any military enlistment. And it's mostly an adult who is signing themselves up.

[AVGWarhawk]

Targeting kids under 18 is just plain wrong though IMO. Even if they live through the conflict, their lives will be forever changed by what they've been through. And their childhood and best days already lost.
Who the heck under 18 is in Iraq? Do you have any evidence that the military is shipping underage kids to Iraq?
The youngest to die in Iraq was 17 and just this past year. His mother signed the papers so he could go. Noted in Time Magazine.
Right, but the military cannot just sign up somebody who is under 18 on their own. In other words, an adult is the final arbiter of any military enlistment. And it's mostly an adult who is signing themselves up.
Yes, the parent or guardian must sign. That has been going on since WW2. My uncle got in at age 17. My grandmother signed for him. Nothing new here that the folks at Berkely discovered. Personally, the cut off should be 18 without parental consent. I do have to say, the recruiters do visit the homes of potential recruites and consult with the parents. My brother-in-law joined the Army. His mother had up-teen questions for the recruiter. He answered all. When he hurt his foot in basic, the recruiter got word to his mother on his condition, etc. The Army was a damn good experience for him. He did not serve in Iraq but was around for the for 9/11 attacks in the Army National Guard. He had completed his two years one month to the day his platoon went to Iraq.

[Sea Demon]

Yes, the parent or guardian must sign. That has been going on since WW2. My uncle got in at age 17. My grandmother signed for him. Nothing new here that the folks at Berkely discovered. Personally, the cut off should be 18 without parental consent. I do have to say, the recruiters do visit the homes of potential recruites and consult with the parents. My brother-in-law joined the Army. His mother had up-teen questions for the recruiter. He answered all. When he hurt his foot in basic, the recruiter got word to his mother on his condition, etc. The Army was a damn good experience for him. He did not serve in Iraq but was around for the for 9/11 in the Army National Guard. He had completed his two years one month to the day his platoon went to Iraq.
That's what it takes. You know, these recruiters don't have an easy time themselves, and in my experience they work hard to answer questions correctly for potential recruits. My recruiter was a great guy, but in today's environment, or in Berkeley, they may label him a predator because he took me out to lunch while he answered my questions. :roll: I know there are bad apples out there, but most are really good people looking to fulfill a task.

[dean_acheson]

What we fail to see here with the protesters is the fact they are in essence protesting Iraq itself. I suspect if the US had troops from a foreign land coming on our shores looking to rape and pillage, they would change their tune very fast.

10/4 on that, I think, it's hard to tell anymore. After years of training in 'it's America's fault,' some of these kids might think they just deserve it.

I guess just for the note, I never served in the military, never served in the National Gaurd. I'm sitting here at my desk looking at a letter from the USAF JAG about joining up. I'll think about it, but won't since I really like what I do.

Now, it might totally make me a chickenhawk, but I'm a horrible jingo, I read military history almost every evening when I'm not tinkering around with one of my old cars or SH4, and I think that serving your country is one of the biggest things that a person can ever achieve. I just didn't do it.

Do I regret it? Yes. Will I always regret it? Yes. Could I still serve? Yes, looks like I have about 10 more months to sign up before bumping the age limit. Will I? probably not.

Does this preclude me from commenting on this stuff? Maybe.

[Peto]

Yes, the parent or guardian must sign. That has been going on since WW2. My uncle got in at age 17. My grandmother signed for him. Nothing new here that the folks at Berkely discovered. Personally, the cut off should be 18 without parental consent. I do have to say, the recruiters do visit the homes of potential recruites and consult with the parents. My brother-in-law joined the Army. His mother had up-teen questions for the recruiter. He answered all. When he hurt his foot in basic, the recruiter got word to his mother on his condition, etc. The Army was a damn good experience for him. He did not serve in Iraq but was around for the for 9/11 in the Army National Guard. He had completed his two years one month to the day his platoon went to Iraq.
That's what it takes. You know, these recruiters don't have an easy time themselves, and in my experience they work hard to answer questions correctly for potential recruits. My recruiter was a great guy, but in today's environment, or in Berkeley, they may label him a predator because he took me out to lunch while he answered my questions. :roll: I know there are bad apples out there, but most are really good people looking to fulfill a task.

I agree with that. IMO, really bad (deceiving) recruiters are the exception. The fact that my son was in his early 20's when he was signing up and the recruiter still came out to talk to us (his parents) showed great integrity. And he told us in no uncertain terms that signing meant Iraq.

No doubt that recruiting is a tough job in this day! Hats off to those who do it with integrity and honesty!

[August]

I joined the Army at 17 quitting high school to do so. My dad joined at 16 using a fake birth certificate. Not too much going on in depression era Indiana i guess.

But in spite of all this never would i look down on someone just because they haven't served, not if they are a Patriot at heart...

[AVGWarhawk]

I joined the Army at 17 quitting high school to do so. My dad joined at 16 using a fake birth certificate. Not too much going on in depression era Indiana i guess.

But in spite of all this never would i look down on someone just because they haven't served, not if they are a Patriot at heart...

All can serve in their own capacity. I spend all day moving AAE from base to base with my trucks. Helicopter blades to Iraq, etc. Need to keep the troops supplied:up:. Heck, I even help out the Belgium military from time to time. I'm almost 43 and I suspect after a hernia and three collapsed lungs (not all at once;)) I'm not really recruiting material.

[bradclark1]

I joined at 17 but was told I couldn't go to Vietnam until I was 18. During the draw down anyway. Somethings changed. I think it should have been kept at 18. You can't even legally smoke at 17.

[bradclark1]

I'm intolerant of bigots
You certainly have no problem with bigotry against our military.
There is not one comment in this thread or even this forum that I'm aware of that disrespects those in our military.

[Sea Demon]

I'm intolerant of bigots
You certainly have no problem with bigotry against our military.
There is not one comment in this thread or even this forum that I'm aware of that disrespects those in our military.

No. You just coddle and "protect" those that are bigoted towards them. Same thing. Bigotry is not only begotten in words, but deeds or intent as well. And you seem to have problems with those that seek to protect the honor and integrity of those recruiters who work so hard to keep our military staffed. But anyway, quit trolling for arguments.

But in spite of all this never would i look down on someone just because they haven't served, not if they are a Patriot at heart...

Me neither. I've never thought that the "chickenhawk" argument ever made much sense. To me it's simply a tool that anti-war/anti-military bigots use to try and shutdown voices in support of our military during wartime. Nothing more. If you are a taxpayer, even if you've never served, you've still got a voice, a vested interest in the outcome, and can be free to speak your mind in support of decisive military action.

[bradclark1]

Your of course trying to set your argument differently now.
Feel free to point where I'm changing anything I've said.
I don't understand your need to argue the point like you're doing.
"In fact I'm trying to understand why you seem insensed over it. You don't think they target rural America? " They do but it's not immoral. I don't believe anybody has said thats all the military will take. Heres a link that sttles it anyway. A majority of recruits are from low to middle-median household incomes. Shows a serious dip from 2004 for high income. Actually the whole thing is no real suprise.
http://www.nationalpriorities.org/graphmilitaryrecruiting2007
This is recruit by state. On the right are links to other recruiting data.
http://www.nationalpriorities.org/table6militaryrecruiting2007
No you don't. You trash threads because you don't allow for opinion that differs from yours. In fact, the insults always start from your direction. The dialogue always begins from you as well. Seems like you want to spout, and allow no rebuttal. You give rudeness, and are shocked when you get some back at you. Grow up. I would say I got it right when I see what ails you in complex. You simply cannot enter a thread where I am and allow a different opinion, and then you cry. You're too much.

Show me a comment where I trash for a different opinion thats put across?
Lets look at this thread.
The problem is SH, you came into my country, and you began listening to left-wing Democrats about the nature of this country. Along the way, you have been made to believe the stupidity of Democrat activists. I find it sad that there are foreign people who come into the USA for whatever reason, and waste their time believing the false ideas and spin driven by America hating leftists. It's a shame really. The above youtube clip is from a parody item that relates to military recruiters changing requirements to meet current goals. It's brought to you by a spinning lefty who has an agenda against fox news. Nothing more than that really.
This is my reaction to it.
You are one sick puppy Sea Demon. Believe it or not not everyone is a Democrat or Republican. You can be left or right leaning and still not be either. I know thats hard for you to grasp but try it. Try not to insult people just because they disagree with you. Everything is not of a political bent in life. Stealth Hunter has been through what you obviously haven't and have no concept of so give him the respect he is due.
Same goes for you. As a matter of fact, I would recommend you go to the section where the "ignore" button is and put me on it. You're the very last thing on my mind when I type something, very inconsequential, and only notice you when you come in to a topic like a hurricane on a mission. Since you can't handle it, this is what I suggest to you. I don't need to put you on an ignore list, because I can handle a point of view that differs from mine. I see many statements you make that I can address, but choose not to because you can't handle it. That's why it's always you that starts these things.
Right. The "The problem is SH" comment above really shows that you can take a difference of opinion.
The bigotry I've seen in you is quite remarkable as well. You are also a troublemaker as you cannot enter a thread where there is differing opinion, without turning it into a mission for you. You have disproven your last statement very well by your prior actions. But of course, you are the type that cannot see your own faults. That is obvious.
I'll tell you what. Us two biogots talk nice then we won't have a problem will we?

[bradclark1]

I'm intolerant of bigots
You certainly have no problem with bigotry against our military.
There is not one comment in this thread or even this forum that I'm aware of that disrespects those in our military.

No. You just coddle and "protect" those that are bigoted towards them. Same thing. Bigotry is not only begotten in words, but deeds or intent as well. And you seem to have problems with those that seek to protect the honor and integrity of those recruiters who work so hard to keep our military staffed. But anyway, quit trolling for arguments.

I'll say it again. There is not one comment in this thread or even this forum that I'm aware of that disrespects those in our military. Is it that hard to understand? You have a problem with people with differing views. Now you are trying to say I'm protecting people who haven't even said what you accuse these mystery people of saying. Where are recruiters honor and integrity being questioned? Because they target the less affluent? Of course they do. That's where the majority of our manpower comes from. Not a big secret. Because he doesn't think they should recruit in schools because they are too young? He's intitled to his opinion just like you are. Does that give you the right to call someone an ignorant foreigner? No it doesn't.

[Sea Demon]

I'll say it again. There is not one comment in this thread or even this forum that I'm aware of that disrespects those in our military. Is it that hard to understand? You have a problem with people with differing views. Now you are trying to say I'm protecting people who haven't even said what you accuse these mystery people of saying. Where are recruiters honor and integrity being questioned? Because they target the less affluent? Of course they do. That's where the majority of our manpower comes from. Not a big secret. Because he doesn't think they should recruit in schools because they are too young? He's intitled to his opinion just like you are. Does that give you the right to call someone an ignorant foreigner? No it doesn't.

Stop trolling for an argument bradclark1. And you are either oblivious, or patently dishonest. You came into this thread in a hostile, name-calling manner, and were objecting to a point of view that did not allow the false assertions that the military seems to target only poor people in less affluent areas. You are also seemingly, yet with less vigor trying to assert something similar. Another objection I had was when SH made the illogical claims that underage kids are being preyed on by recruiters. With no evidence to support that. Don't tell me you believe that crap. Well maybe you do. I mean, after all, his nephews got it on tape. Those recruiters are sick in that guys eyes. He even said so in no uncertain terms.

And according to you, there is no comment on this thread that disrespects our military, hmmm? Well, Mr. SH referred to US military recruiters as "those bastards". But that doesn't seem to bother you does it? Or it's not worthy of your consideration. Maybe you think he's accurate. Who knows? This is actually what he said:

Nobody ever joins, of course, but those bastards try and trick them into joining (acting friendly, joking with the kids, you get the picture). Really pisses me off.

Isn't that sweet? Since you defended him so vigorously and continue to do so, I'll take that as a resounding yes. Especially considering you didn't seem to have a problem with it when he said it. Instead you attack the guy defending the honor of military recruiters. Don't look for adoration when doing that. Oh, and when did I call him an ignorant foreigner? I just can't seem to find the quote.

You are ticked because somebody will go to bat for these hardworking people with a difficult task to do. And that's recruit for our military in a hostile environment that is driven by false illogical emotions. You also got mad because I may have been insensitive. Or I sounded mean. :lol: Get over yourself brad. You're not the grand protector of right and wrong. Nor are you the judge of good speech, or hostile speech. Especially since you disqualify yourself with your own smart-a%% comments. And your own illogical backpeddling. The funny thing was, you didn't seem to give SH any grief when he made some very snide comments to me. He started it with me by calling me "hot-shot" in a very condescending manner. That guy not only defamed US military recruiters, he proceeds to insult me. That's pretty much the root of it. I guess you didn't read any of those parts though did you? Nor would you want to. Perhaps in your mind, he and others who insult the military should have carte blanche. But anyway, that's where my own shots across the bow came from towards him. And perhaps, he should have expected it. And so should you with your little grandstanding episodes, and feeble insults.

And then you appear with your little complex, and chest beating (Defending someone who openly trashes US military recruiters) and now assign yourself the position of arbiter of speech on the forum. Do you realize how comical that is? It's funny as hell. Just like every single Global Warming thread you've gone psycho on. Simply put, if you can't handle it, don't come around in attack mode. You threw the first shot at me, as usual, and then are taken aback when there is a rebuttal. Unreal. Bottom line though, and you better listen good. I will not allow somebody to falsely diminish the roles of our military recruiters or say demeaning things about them that are untrue. They have a very difficult mission to fulfill. You seemingly don't give a crap, but now you pretend that it's an issue for you. And you really do care. If you did care, I'm sure you wouldn't have allowed somebody to slander these recruiters and the work they do. And instead go the other direction. You are a fraud. Simply put. Otherwise perhaps you would have seen another angle instead of just coming into this thread like you do. But I'm starting to think you live for trolling this forum. Give it up. You are getting nowhere. And you just can't backpeddle like you think you can. You have not shown any support for our people in uniform here, and have been on the side that marginalizes them. You have given the perception of yourself, but are left unable to redefine it. And I find it hilarious.

[bradclark1]

Stop trolling for an argument bradclark1. And you are either oblivious, or patently dishonest. You came into this thread in a hostile, name-calling manner, and were objecting to a point of view that did not allow the false assertions that the military seems to target only poor people in less affluent areas.
Nobody but you says they target only poor people in less affluent areas. He said they are targeted. No only to it. You seem to agree. Why the flip flop Sea Demon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peto
I didn't say they were shipping them off. I said they're being targeted.

Of course they are? So what? This is how it's always been.
Can't make up your mind? My daughter started receiving phone calls from recruiters at 16. I don't see anything wrong with that but he does. I don't agree with him but he has that right. Those graphs show where a majority of our men and women come from. What groups are larger? It shouldn't be any surprise and it's probably the same in most countries that rely on a volunteer voice.
And according to you, there is no comment on this thread that disrespects our military, hmmm? Well, Mr. SH referred to US military recruiters as "those bastards". But that doesn't seem to bother you does it? Or it's not worthy of your consideration. Maybe you think he's accurate. Who knows? This is actually what he said:
And he followed it up with
Indeed we do. The war is on, and it will be on for quite a while, I'd imagine, and I will henceforth give my regards and support to the men fighting in it. However, I will not support a government that wishes to continue the war.

Instead you attack the guy defending the honor of military recruiters. Don't look for adoration when doing that. Oh, and when did I call him an ignorant foreigner? I just can't seem to find the quote.
Here it is.
The problem is SH, you came into my country, and you began listening to left-wing Democrats about the nature of this country. Along the way, you have been made to believe the stupidity of Democrat activists. I find it sad that there are foreign people who come into the USA for whatever reason, and waste their time believing the false ideas and spin driven by America hating leftists. It's a shame really. The above youtube clip is from a parody item that relates to military recruiters changing requirements to meet current goals. It's brought to you by a spinning lefty who has an agenda against fox news. Nothing more than that really.
And here is my reaction to it.
You are one sick puppy Sea Demon. Believe it or not not everyone is a Democrat or Republican. You can be left or right leaning and still not be either. I know thats hard for you to grasp but try it. Try not to insult people just because they disagree with you. Everything is not of a political bent in life. Stealth Hunter has been through what you obviously haven't and have no concept of so give him the respect he is due.
Get over yourself brad. You're not the grand protector of right and wrong. Nor are you the judge of good speech, or hostile speech. Especially since you disqualify yourself with your own smart-a%% comments.
No I'm not but if I see you being insulting or belittling to someone I'll step in every time.
Does this seem the comments of a rational person? I think not.
I've been to several protests to laugh at the kooks there. I've even had one of the "Black Bloc" activists threaten me with physical violence. Of course I laughed in his face. Trust me, these people are Democrat activists and socio-paths of many varieties. And liberals of varying intensities. But they are indeed liberals in the modern sense.
He started it with me by calling me "hot-shot" in a very condescending manner. That guy not only defamed US military recruiters, he proceeds to insult me.
I wouldn't call that patronizing or superior. read the whole paragraph.
Let me tell you something, hot-shot, war is not a game. If you're so damn ready to head off into the breach, then be my guest. I'm not going to stop you. But let me tell you this, when you go and when you see the bodies, when you smell the blood and the rotting flesh, when you feel the heat from an explosion or the cold sensation of wet blood, then you're not going to feel so gung-ho anymore. When you watch your best friend lose his head to a grenade, you'll understand. When you have bullets aimed at YOU, you'll understand.
And so should you with your little grandstanding episodes, and feeble insults.You like to fight and get insulting when people don't bow to your opinion. I like to fight you when you do. If you would treat your opponent with any respect you wouldn't hear a word from me regarding your manner. It would just be subject matter.
Try it.
Bottom line though, and you better listen good. I will not allow somebody to falsely diminish the roles of our military recruiters or say demeaning things about them that are untrue. They have a very difficult mission to fulfill. You seemingly don't give a crap, but now you pretend that it's an issue for you. Funny, I don't remember me diminishing the rolls of recruiters. I remember saying a few times I don't see anything wrong in recruiters tactics. I have though said the SH is entitled to his opinion. Perhaps you can show me. You can't though can you?
You are a fraud. Simply put. Otherwise perhaps you would have seen another angle instead of just coming into this thread like you do. Like I do? I seem to remember being pretty on topic until the last paragraph where I called you on your personal comments. If you don't like it, treat people with respect then I won't have a reason to call you on it.
You are getting nowhere. And you just can't backpeddle like you think you can. Show me where I backpedal on anything. You are letting your imagination run rampant again.
You have not shown any support for our people in uniform here, and have been on the side that marginalizes them. You have given the perception of yourself, but are left unable to redefine it. And I find it hilarious.
I listen to the vets at the hospital and give them a nonjudgmental ear. I'll shake their hand and and give them my thanks. I'll buy them a burger. Give them smokes if they are out and I drop soda off at the psych ward. What do you do besides run your mouth?

[Sea Demon]

Nobody but you says they target only poor people in less affluent areas. He said they are targeted. No only to it. You seem to agree. Why the flip flop Can't make up your mind? My daughter started receiving phone calls from recruiters at 16. I don't see anything wrong with that but he does. I don't agree with him but he has that right. Those graphs show where a majority of our men and women come from. What groups are larger? It shouldn't be any surprise and it's probably the same in most countries that rely on a volunteer voice.
:lol:Is there anything wrong with providing these kids with career choices? If not what's your problem? The military is a volunteer force. Nobody is forced to join. And these recruiters have a job to do. SH has a right to speak ill of them, and you have a right to protect those who seek to damage the honor of our military people. But I have a right to fire back. And I will. Get over yourself.

What a fraud you are brad. So SH can say what he wants and gets a free pass at the end of it all. :lol: Like I said, he probably said things that got you moist. And you cannot now come back and pretend you're this big advocate of military personnel including those that recruit. You have been shown to be inconsistent, a backpeddler, a supporter of those who denigrate our military people, and now intellectually dishonest. And there's nothing you can do to clean that up other than to admit your errors. But of course you could never do that...could you?!?

SH said some remarkably bad things about US military recruiters. He only decided to backpeddle himself once he saw that he wasn't going to get away with it wholesale. Learn a lesson from that. Because you will get no free ride yourself. If you lump yourself in with that group, and attack those who seek to fight for the honor of our recruiters, you have only yourself to blame when it doesn't go right for you and not everyone is throwing roses at your feet.

Instead you attack the guy defending the honor of military recruiters. Don't look for adoration when doing that. Oh, and when did I call him an ignorant foreigner? I just can't seem to find the quote. Here it is.
The problem is SH, you came into my country, and you began listening to left-wing Democrats about the nature of this country. Along the way, you have been made to believe the stupidity of Democrat activists. I find it sad that there are foreign people who come into the USA for whatever reason, and waste their time believing the false ideas and spin driven by America hating leftists. It's a shame really. The above youtube clip is from a parody item that relates to military recruiters changing requirements to meet current goals. It's brought to you by a spinning lefty who has an agenda against fox news. Nothing more than that really. And here is my reaction to it.
You are one sick puppy Sea Demon. blah...blah...blah...spin...spin...spin

I still don't see "ignorant foreigner" anywhere in there. Perhaps in your looney mind, it's there. But the paragraph just doesn't show it to those of us in the real world. And my reaction was to him calling our recruiters "Bastards". I guess you didn't want somebody to challenge that assertion. That's what I see. Otherwise you wouldn't have got your little knickers in a bunch and decided to attack someone who seeks to defend the honor of the recruiter. And I know exactly where this type of dialogue usually comes from. You hate it pointed out, but it's the truth. And it will always be pointed out. Democrat activists use this language, and most people know it. You simply cannot blur that or pretend the opposite is true. I'm sure your next diatribe will attempt it. But you look dumber trying to clean up that fact. It just doesn't mesh in the real world. You see, we've seen even members of the failed Democrat Congress say very demeaning things about the military. John Murtha saying our soldiers were killing civilians in cold blood. I'm sure SH saw that and said "yeah, they are murderers!" Maybe you did as well. What about Dick Durbin comparing them to Nazi's? Maybe you and SH had a jolly good time with that one, didn't you? It's not hard to see where some of these emotionally based false assertions against military recruiters come from. Too bad you can't handle it. It's not just my opinion, but many people see the same thing. It's in the words. But of course you have no trouble with an ad hominem attack from that direction, do you?!? That's where your little argument about "it's not what you say, it's how you say it" falls on it's face.

No I'm not but if I see you being insulting or belittling to someone I'll step in every time.
Please do. You look the fool for it, considering I was defending military recruiters who were attacked ad hominem by someone who doesn't even understand them. You apparently don't care about military recruiters or their mission. You care that somebody's talking mean. :lol: What immature hogwash. But that's your right. I would at least recommend you look at what these recruiters really do, how they do it, and the challenges they face in doing it. You and SH are cruel, and are the type that destroy what these recruiters try to do. BTW, where were you when SH was insulting or belittling to not only myself, but to military recruiters? He started it, not me. And how about your own insulting behavior? I did not respond or say anything to you. You as usual trolled the forum for a fight. And you got one. And now, you can't just wiggle out of it and save face. As usual, you look like an immature brat that can't influence people to think like you. And now you put yourself into a position of helping to marginalize US military recruiters. You as usual started insults my way, but complain that I was defending recruiters in a mean way, against someone who called them "bastards" and said he was sickened by them. This is too funny dude. You're even stunned that someone would make rebuttals to your own insults.

Funny, I don't remember me diminishing the rolls of recruiters. I remember saying a few times I don't see anything wrong in recruiters tactics. I have though said the SH is entitled to his opinion. Perhaps you can show me. You can't though can you?
No, you simply coddle and protect those that diminish the roles of recruiters. And attack those that are in the process of defending their role and mission. That's the same thing. Like I said, your bigotry against our military is not in the form of words, it's in deeds.

Show me where I backpedal on anything. You are letting your imagination run rampant again.
By insisting that now, you're this great advocate of military people, while you're doing everything in your power to help those that diminish or marginalize their mission. Not only do you backpedal. You now amazingly insist, that you're just doing it because you're against mean people who use insulting language. But you look like a complete moron, because you do not address the origins of this whole thing. And that's SH attacking me wholesale, and then attacking military recruiters and calling them "Bastards". You look the fool because not only did SH attack me first, but so did you, and you complain because I make a comeback. That's priceless comedy. I guess in your eyes, military recruiters deserve to be lied about, and their mission completely crapped on. And nobody is supposed to prove that erroneous. You can't twist it your way, although you can continue to try. It really is amusing.

I listen to the vets at the hospital and give them a nonjudgmental ear. I'll shake their and and give them my thanks. I'll buy them a burger. Give them smokes if they are out and I drop soda off at the psych ward. What do you do besides run your mouth?
Yeah, every one of you that denigrates our military is a medal of honor winner, who personally carries the weight of all servicemen. :roll: You listen to vets, buy them burgers, and behind their backs defend people who marginalize their recruiters. You defend those that make our recruits look like stupid, little desperate hacks. And you attack those who vigorously defend the military...with the weak excuse of "you use insulting language". But ignore the insulting language of the attacker of recruiters, and yourself. I myself don't believe you do anything but run your mouth.

[bradclark1]

Is there anything wrong with providing these kids with career choices? If not what's your problem? You've already proven yourself to be a fool. The military is a volunteer force. Nobody ius forced to join. And these recruiters have a job to do. SH has a right to speak ill of them, and you have a right to protect those who seek to damage the honor of our military people. But I have a right to fire back. And I will. Get over yourself.
Make up your mind Sea Demon. You are looking idiotic. You run your mouth saying they aren't, then you turn around run your mouth saying they are.
a backpeddler.........inconsistent
Just what I said. You couldn't show anything. Show me the errors.
SH said some remarkably bad things about US military recruiters. He only decided to backpeddle himself once he saw that he wasn't going to get away with it wholesale. Learn a lesson from that. Because you will get no free ride yourself. If you lump yourself in with that group, and attack those who seek to fight for the honor of our recruiters, you have only yourself to blame when it doesn't go right for you and not everyone is throwing roses at your feet.
Like I said he is entitled to an opinion. You don't like it with your bigotry I'll call you on it.
I still don't see "ignorant foreigner" anywhere in there. Funny, looks pretty blatant to me. read it again.
The problem is SH, you came into my country, and you began listening to left-wing Democrats about the nature of this country. Along the way, you have been made to believe the stupidity of Democrat activists. I find it sad that there are foreign people who come into the USA for whatever reason, and waste their time believing the false ideas and spin driven by America hating leftists. It's a shame really. The above youtube clip is from a parody item that relates to military recruiters changing requirements to meet current goals. It's brought to you by a spinning lefty who has an agenda against fox news. Nothing more than that really.
Democrat activists use this language, and most people know it. You simply cannot blur that or pretend the opposite is true. I'm sure your next diatribe will attempt it. But you look dumber trying to clean up that fact. It just doesn't mesh in the real world. You see, we've seen even members of the failed Democrat Congress say very demeaning things about the military. John Murtha saying our soldiers were killing civilians in cold blood. I'm sure SH saw that and said "yeah, they are murderers!" Maybe you did as well. What about Dick Durbin comparing them to Nazi's? Maybe you and SH had a jolly good time with that one, didn't you? It's not hard to see where some of these emotionally based false assertions against military recruiters come from. Too bad you can't handle it. It's not just my opinion, but many people see the same thing. It's in the words. But of course you have no trouble with an ad hominem attack from that direction, do you?!? That's where your little argument about "it's not what you say, it's how you say it" falls on it's face.
Oh lord, here we go again. Evil Democrats. It's all a Democratic conspiracy. You are pathetic. Go to another demonstration again so you can look as dumb as they are. Do you jump up and down and hoot and holler too?
No, you simply coddle and protect those that diminish the roles of recruiters. And attack those that are in the process of defending their role and mission. That's the same thing. Like I said, your bigotry against our military is not in the form of words, it's in deeds.
Nope, what I said was he's entitled to his opinion. Read the whole paragraph and it explains itself and his feelings.
Not only do you backpedal.
Are you dense? For the third time show me where I backpedal. If you can't you have nothing to say on the subject.
Yeah, every one of you that denigrates our military is a medal of honor winner, who personally carries the weight of all servicemen. You listen to vets, buy them burgers, and behind their backs defend people who marginalize their recruiters. You defend those that make our recruits look like stupid, little desperate hacks. And you attack those who vigorously defend the military...with the weak excuse of "you use insulting language". But ignore the insulting language of the attacker of recruiters, and yourself. I myself don't believe you do anything but run your mouth.
I do in deeds what you do in mouth. You don't do a damned thing but run your mouth. What have you done to help any veterans? Nothing. Then you try and belittle those that do. You aren't worth scraping off the bottom of my shoe. All mouth no action. I'll tell you what mouth. You are an engineer supposedly. Good pay I would think. Go to a veterans hospital and show your support. Don't want to bother with it do you? Too much of an effort? A waste of your time? Put your money where your mouth is. In fact you don't even have to spend a penny. Just go to a veterans hospital and shake their hand. Tell them you are proud of them. Ask one in a wheel chair if they need a push to an appointment. You won't though will you? Don't want to waste your valuable time or money? Don't want to look at them because it's such a terrible thing? Hurts your sensibilities? Don't want to do anything because they might be Democrats? Show your support! Turn your mouth into action. Do you even know where the hospitals or clinics are? Here's a link that shows what's close to you.
http://www1.va.gov/directory/guide/state.asp?STATE=CA

[Sea Demon]

Make up your mind Sea Demon. You are looking idiotic. You run your mouth saying they aren't, then you turn around run your mouth saying they are.
Nope. Wrong again. I have opposed the assertion that military recruiters are looking for poor downtrodden people and exploiting their situation to recruit them. And the other assertion that recruiters are predators looking to fool underage kids into military jobs. And I was against the assertion that the recruiters are worthy of being called "bastards". Something you have not addressed. In fact you haven't addressed any of the things I posted. But it's no real surprise there.

Just what I said. You couldn't show anything. Show me the errors.
Not only did I show you, but you've shown me yourself. Your inability to maintain course and heading from your original point of view is your fault not mine. And you still haven't answered for why you seemingly have no problem with SH calling our military recruiters "bastards", and starting his threads with ad hominem attacks. "It's not what he says, it's how he says it", right? ;) That should go for you too, seeing as how you originally attacked me as well, for seemingly trying to defend the honor of US military recruiters. Perhaps supporting our military offends you in some way. Perhaps you're offended because while G.W. Bush is CNC, you guys are supposed to be able to get away with attacking Bush's military in any way you'd like. Unfortunately, other people who truly support our nations military see it differntly, and are not shy about pointing it out. Crawl back in your hole. You're arguments and feeble attempts to explain yourself ain't cutting the mustard. And it won't until you address your own personal attacks on me personally, and your support for somebody who attacks our military recruiters with nonsense.

Funny, looks pretty blatant to me. read it again.
Oh really. Gee, I read it again and nowhere in there do I call him an ignorant foreigner. In fact, I don't call him any names at all. I did say that he wastes his time listening to hateful Democrat activists that demean our military. I won't back away from that. I know that's exactly where it comes from. You then came in and called me something demeaning. I think whatever psych ward you're around, you need to spend more time there yourself. You're reading things that aren't there, and ignore your own personal attacks and name calling. "It's not what you say" brad "it's how you say it." :lol: :roll:

Oh lord, here we go again. Evil Democrats. It's all a Democratic conspiracy. You are pathetic. Go to another demonstration again so you can look as dumb as they are. Do you jump up and down and hoot and holler too?
You cannot disprove that they said any of this. I can go and provide links if you'd like. The comments from our failed Democrats in Congress that are demoralizing to our people in the military is long and wide. It may bother you, but that won't make it go away. They are on record for it, and I find them reprehensible. Not only that, you are in this forum,n ot angry at SH for calling our military recruiters "bastards", you're mad at the guy defending our recruiters. And you are looking for praise that you will not receive for it.

Nope, what I said was he's entitled to his opinion. Read the whole paragraph and it explains itself and his feelings.
Yes. He is. But what you guys on the Democrat/anti-Bush/anti-war/anti-military side of things fail to realize is that supporters of the military have a right to express their opinions as well. And they have a right to defend the military and it's recruiters when they are being marginalized and demeaned with false nonsense. And if you and SH come into a topic and begin your thoughts with personal attacks, name-calling, and outright nonsense, don't be surprised when some of it gets fired back. That's what I find most comical about this whole thing. You can dish out plenty but can't take it yourself.

Are you dense? For the third time show me where I backpedal. If you can't you have nothing to say on the subject.
I did, and incidentally, so did you. But anyway, this is truly a minor point. The big one is where SH craps on our military, you defend him. You both insult and demean, marginalize recruiters and their mission, and you are shocked that there is a rebuttal to your attacks.

I do in deeds what you do in mouth.

I don't buy it. You spend all day here arguing and trolling this forum to do anything there. Save your little "look at me guys, I'm a hero" speech. You have no idea what I do for veterans. I have given money to veterans affairs, and am in a sponsorship for veterans at Travis AFB. But I don't need to use it to justify my support for them or look for praise. I just do it. Not only that, but I do actually defend military people from those that call them "bastards". I do oppose politicians that compare our troops to Nazis, threaten to cut off their funding, make resounding statements that "the War is lost" while boots are on the ground, and attempt to trivialize the issue of recruiting to the point where liberal Democrats in certain cities make recruiters out to be criminals. I do alot more than just shake hands and buy burgers, pal.

[bradclark1]

I have opposed the assertion that military recruiters are looking for poor downtrodden people and exploiting their situation to recruit them
Show where that assertion is made? You made it in your mind. The only person talking about "poor downtrodden people is you".
Not only did I show you, but you've shown me yourself. What is this the fourth time I've said this? Show me. Show everyone.
And you still haven't answered for why you seemingly have no problem with SH calling our military recruiters "bastards", and starting his threads with ad hominem attacks.
SH explained himself and his thoughts in his next comment.
I believe it started with this:
Come on SH. Don't be so ignorant.
Oh really. Gee, I read it again and nowhere in there do I call him an ignorant foreigner............................
"It's not what you say" brad "it's how you say it."
There you go. Thank you.
Yes. He is. But what you guys on the Democrat/anti-Bush/anti-war/anti-military side of things fail to realize is that supporters of the military have a right to express their opinions as well. And they have a right to defend the military and it's recruiters when they are being marginalized and demeaned with false nonsense. And if you and SH come into a topic and begin your thoughts with personal attacks, name-calling, and outright nonsense, don't be surprised when some of it gets fired back. That's what I find most comical about this whole thing. You can dish out plenty but can't take it yourself.
Here we go again. The evil Democrats anti-military. Show me an anti-military comment. He only refers to recruiters and read on further. Err What can't I take?
did, and incidentally, so did you. But anyway, this is truly a minor point.
No it's not because you base half your argument on that. Now you can't back it up you call it a minor point.
Where am I shocked about anything? Stop letting your imagination run away with you.
Save your little "look at me guys, I'm a hero" speech. What I did is prove that I support while all you do is run your lips because you don't do anything.
I have given money to veterans affairs, and am in a sponsorship for veterans at Travis AFB.
If you had said you donate to the VA Van account or VA christmas account or VA television account or one of the other support accounts I might have believed you. I don't beleive you. Because of that I checked Travis air force out and didn't find anything on veterans sponsorship either. Now if you had said you belonged to one of the veteran organization that supports vets I would have believed you. Thats all I'll say on it. You've just shown what you are.
The rest of your paragraph is political garbage.
I do alot more than just shake hands and buy burgers, pal.
You don't do squat.

[Sea Demon]

Show where that assertion is made? You made it in your mind. The only person talking about "poor downtrodden people is you".
Talk about somebody hitting the same brick wall right in the face over and over again. Go away troll. How long did it take you to think of the spin and drivel here? Some point was being made that military recruiters are setting up shop in less affluent neighborhoods. And the point is being made...why? Not only that there was a point, supported by you even that the military makes a habit out of exploiting kids to get them to join as well. It need not be implicit to see your angle. If you didn't think so, maybe you'd be on the right side of the argument. You're not though. And coming back over and over again won't change that.

What is this the fourth time I've said this? Show me. Show everyone.
Look at your second posting where you say..."have shown that the military puts a lot into recruiting in depressed areas which on a recruiting stand point makes a lot of sense. They'll go where they can get the bodies. Not everybody agree's with doing business that way but it works." Then you say a few posts down "I'm sure there are people from an affluent background serving." Well no kidding, and it's good you point that out. And that kind of goes against your first direction there. You guys always backpeddle once you get caught in BS rhetoric. And it's funny as hell to watch. You make it seems like the military is guilty of something up there, then say when push comes to shove that there are more than just the poor there. You may get mad at me for not allowing this BS, but it will be pointed out. Anyway, this is a very minor point. The main issue is why you choose to support and defend someone who chooses to denigrate our military recruiter with foul names. Someone who trys to make recruiters look as though they are wrong for finding recruits. It's not my problem if you look like the horse's A** because of it.

ASH explained himself and his thoughts in his next comment.
I believe it started with this:
Come on SH. Don't be so ignorant. Oh really. Gee, I read it again and nowhere in there do I call him an ignorant foreigner............................
"It's not what you say" brad "it's how you say it." There you go. Thank you.
There still is nowhere you can point that I called himanything. In fact, only you and him were guilty of name-calling in my direction. And then you get mad when I partake in it after thae fact in your direction. Yeah, if you could only practice what you preach. You joined the topic in attack mode, and are devastated because you now look more foolish than you ever did. And by the way, SH calmed down once he saw he was going to get challenged and wasn't going to get a free ride. Nothing more. And he never apologized or expressed regret over his heinous comments about our recruiters. And you have done nothing but vigorously defend him. And are doing nothing but digging a bigger hole for yourself with every post. You even seem to support his ideas at the foundation level. You're problem isn't with SH and his trashing of military recruiters, it's with me and others who point out who the vile military haters are. You're never going to get it differently. So get used to it. Crying won't make it any different.

No it's not because you base half your argument on that. Now you can't back it up you call it a minor point.
Where am I shocked about anything? Stop letting your imagination run away with you.
Nope. I base my arguments on the fact that I was attacked wholesale and our recruiters were attacked and called "bastards". And their mission was also trivialized by this person. You not only defend this guy, but you join the topic making personal attacks of your own. Very impotent ones at that.

What I did is prove that I support while all you do is run your lips because you don't do anything.
You shake hands, pop cigarettes in mouths, buy burgers and come here and troll. You also pretend you're some kind of hero as you help somebody trivialize the mission of military recruiters. And you attempt to legitimize the very arguments that recruiters are predators....."bastards" even. I think those are the most foul comments here, yet you never address them. That speaks alot of your lack of character. In fact, the personal attacks are driven by SH and you. And now you whine because some of the fire is headed your way. It's too funny.

If you had said you donate to the VA Van account or VA christmas account or VA television account or one of the other support accounts I might have believed you. I don't beleive you. Because of that I checked Travis air force out and didn't find anything on veterans sponsorship either. Now if you had said you belonged to one of the veteran organization that supports vets I would have believed you. Thats all I'll say on it. You've just shown what you are.
:lol:The sponsorship is through my work. You don't understand anything. But nevertheless I do have a membership in the local American Legion, and AFA. There is no official Travis AFB department of charity listed because it's not official. We send things to them (care packages), and help with their needs. Not only that, we are thinking of expanding this to the National Guard unit in the Central Valley as more people are participating in it. Real people who actually care for our military personnel and take the time to do real stuff. Not the fake hero speeches that come from guys like you while you support people who stab them in the back.

The rest of your paragraph is political garbage.
And you can't disprove any of it. It makes you mad because it's true. All those statements by those Democrats are on record. It's not my fault if you support them now is it? Nor is it my fault if I point it out. If what they say makes you uncomfortable, or if people pointing out their hideous statements offends you, that's too bad. Nobody is going to allow it without rebuttal. You have to take it. You have no choice. Maybe you should write letters to your favorite Democrats and tell them to shut up.

You don't do squat.
I think I do alot more than you if I actually donate money. Have you ever heard of disabled veterans charities? I also have given to my local VFW. They gave money to help rehabilitate injured soldiers. And I also at least defend those who serve in the military while you seemingly don't care if they're being called "bastards". Nice, but no dice for you. All you've proven is that you're becoming a desperate troll here fishing for anything. And you're still hitting the same brick wall. You have not proven you do anything at all to support our military people in any way. And the visible aspects demonstrated here by you that we can all see, you don't seem to be on their side at all.

[baggygreen]

play nice guys..

has there been any other instances of this sorta thing going on in the US anywhere other than Berkley??

[bradclark1]

Talk about somebody hitting the same brick wall right in the face over and over again. Go away troll. How long did it take you to think of the spin and drivel here? Some point was being made that military recruiters are setting up shop in less affluent neighborhoods. And the point is being made...why? Not only that there was a point, supported by you even that the military makes a habit out of exploiting kids to get them to join as well. It need not be implicit to see your angle. If you didn't think so, maybe you'd be on the right side of the argument. You're not though. And coming back over and over again won't change that.
This is what I said. Point being they will go where they can get people. If you want to call that exploited go ahead. I'm not. Where am I wrong in the below fact? No I'm not.
There have been a few news shows (60 Minutes, Nightline, etc) over the last few years that have shown that the military puts a lot into recruiting in depressed areas which on a recruiting stand point makes a lot of sense. They'll go where they can get the bodies. Not everybody agree's with doing business that way but it works.
Look at your second posting where you say..."have shown that the military puts a lot into recruiting in depressed areas which on a recruiting stand point makes a lot of sense. They'll go where they can get the bodies. Not everybody agrees with doing business that way but it works."
You forgot the first part "There have been a few news shows (60 Minutes, Nightline, etc) over the last few years that have shown"
Further down I wrote:
Look, it's a fact the military puts a lot into recruitment of depressed area's. It's a logical place to go. They give a huge bonus for combat arms. An 11 series mos (infantry) can get anywhere from $4,000 to $16,000 plus education benefits just for enlisting. That's a hell of an incentive if you live in a small dead end town in the middle of Kansas. They aren't going to set up an office in the Hampton's. Recruiting Command will do what it takes and go where it takes to fill the ranks. If people are upset about it "oh well". It makes no sense to gloss over a reality just because you don't like people complaining about it. Reality is Reality.

Where you get downtrodden I'll never know.
Lets look at your next slice of selective editing.
Then you say a few posts down "I'm sure there are people from an affluent background serving." Well no kidding, and it's good you point that out.
Lets look where this came from:
You don't think there is anybody serving from an affluent background? To you, everybody in the military is there out of economic desperation?
Duh
What I replied:
What I said was you won't see a recruiter in the Hamptons. I'm sure there are people from an affluent background serving. No, what I said was "That's a hell of an incentive if you live in a small dead end town in the middle of Kansas." Where am I wrong in that? You don't think Recruiting Command doesn't go where they think they can get the people? I'm trying to understand where you see personal desperation in that. In fact I'm trying to understand why you seem incensed over it. You don't think they target rural America?
Moving on down:
You guys always backpeddle once you get caught in BS rhetoric. And it's funny as hell to watch. You make it seems like the military is guilty of something up there, then say when push comes to shove that there are more than just the poor there. You may get mad at me for not allowing this BS, but it will be pointed out. Anyway, this is a very minor point.
Backpeddle on what? The military isn't guilty of anything. I think I made it pretty clear that Recruiting Command will go where the bodies are? Where the hell you get desperation and downtrodden and only taking poor people is in your own mind.
Now it's a minor point? You have a screw loose genius.
The main issue is why you choose to support and defend someone who chooses to denigrate our military recruiter with foul names. Someone who trys to make recruiters look as though they are wrong for finding recruits. It's not my problem if you look like the horse's A** because of it.
One of your favorite tactic is selective memory. He explained those feeling pretty good. I also expanded on it a little.
The military is over a million strong and there are a million reasons for joining. If people disagree with the war they are going to view recruiting as bad and that kids are being taken advantage of. One equals the other. Unless the average person has lived around the military they have no concept of what it's like besides what they see in the news or movies. The people with attitudes are few and if you can educate them.... but it's not worth getting in a pissing contest over.
What I said before earlier:
My daughter started receiving phone calls from recruiters at 16. I don't see anything wrong with that but he does. I don't agree with him but he has that right.
Now this part
There still is nowhere you can point that I called himanything.
Heres you:
Come on SH. Don't be so ignorant.
The problem is SH, you came into my country, and you began listening to left-wing Democrats about the nature of this country. Along the way, you have been made to believe the stupidity of Democrat activists. I find it sad that there are foreign people who come into the USA for whatever reason, and waste their time believing the false ideas and spin driven by America hating leftists. It's a shame really. The above youtube clip is from a parody item that relates to military recruiters changing requirements to meet current goals. It's brought to you by a spinning lefty who has an agenda against fox news. Nothing more than that really.
Now, further down:
And that kind of goes against your first direction there. You guys always backpeddle once you get caught in BS rhetoric. And it's funny as hell to watch. You make it seems like the military is guilty of something up there, then say when push comes to shove that there are more than just the poor there. You may get mad at me for not allowing this BS, but it will be pointed out. Anyway, this is a very minor point. The main issue is why you choose to support and defend someone who chooses to denigrate our military recruiter with foul names. Someone who trys to make recruiters look as though they are wrong for finding recruits. It's not my problem if you look like the horse's A** because of it.
The only one talking about guilt is you. How the military recruits is no big secret. Again, they go where the bodies are. You don't think they offer big bonuses to be good'ol boys do you. I'm still not finding where anybody has said downtrodden and poor. SH said he doesn't approve of recruiters targeting students. He can disapprove if he wants to without getting a ration of s#!t from the likes of you.
You joined the topic in attack mode, and are devastated because you now look more foolish than you ever did. I think it will take something more than you for anyone to feel devastated.
And are doing nothing but digging a bigger hole for yourself with every post. I haven't seen a hole yet.
it's with me and others who point out who the vile military haters are.
Where do you get military haters from? In fact who are these others. They wouldn't happen to be fluffy pink elephants would they? You need to take another of your pills. Come down to reality.
Nope. I base my arguments on the fact that I was attacked wholesale and our recruiters were attacked and called "bastards". And their mission was also trivialized by this person. You not only defend this guy, but you join the topic making personal attacks of your own. Very impotent ones at that.
You are fascinated with that word aren't you. Read his thread and not the one word. Nearly as bad as your downtrodden and poor.
You don't think this is attacking him with your Demophobia? Poor little foreigner allowing himself to be made a fool of by evil Democrats.
The sponsorship is through my work. You don't understand anything.
Oh I think I understand perfectly. You and I both understand.
And you can't disprove any of it.
Where does politics come into this. You can't go one day without an attack of Demophobia. Save it for the political threads.
I think I do alot more than you if I actually donate money. Have you ever heard of disabled veterans charities? I also have given to my local VFW.
You showed yourself for what you are perfectly the first time.
And the visible aspects demonstrated here by you that we can all see, you don't seem to be on their side at all.
In the America I live in a person can have a difference of opinion. He doesn't like recruiters in school. I don't agree but I'll step on you if I think you are being your usual self to someone because they won't agree with you.
Now go take your pill and go to bed like a good boy.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

I keep seeing the thread title and cant help thinking of the NBA commentator XD

http://www.waynebesen.com/uploaded_images/CharlesBarkley-702979.jpg

"Tha's turribull.."

[Sea Demon]

This is what I said. Point being they will go where they can get people. If you want to call that exploited go ahead. I'm not. Where am I wrong in the below fact? No I'm not.

Oh, that for sure is a completely different tone than what you started with. I love it. First you protect and defend somebody that calls our military recruiters a foul name, you create a personal attack from nothing, and now after looking like a fool, have to try and save face by pretending any of this stuff is of any real importance. The only thing that truly matters is that both you and SH have done things to try and damage the honor of US military recruiters. And you got canned on it. This stuff here is inconsequential.

You forgot the first part "There have been a few news shows (60 Minutes, Nightline, etc) over the last few years that have shown"

That wasn't the relevant part. Doesn't matter where the initial staement came from. The important part was your sense that somehow it's wrong and people don't like the way it's done. And you seem understanding of that. And indeed you try and drive the point that recruiters do mostly focus on poor neighborhoods as matter of method. But anyway, why do you argue this point? Like I said , it's really of no consequence anyway. You and SH demeaned our military, and you continue to do so by not addrsssing the real problem here. In that somebody tried to slander our people who recruit and fill the ranks of the service. And you seemingly have no problem with it at all. I've not seen you type a word of condemnation over those remarks.

Where you get downtrodden I'll never know.

Usually poor neighborhoods, or less affluent neighborhoods implies this. It's simply another word for poor. But it's design is to stir emotion. I actually saw the Democrat Supervisor in SFO use the word "downtrodden" to define who military people from Jr. ROTC target in SFO schools. I guess that's just another buzzword to try and move the emotionally based myrmidons to slander the military.

Backpeddle on what? The military isn't guilty of anything. I think I made it pretty clear that Recruiting Command will go where the bodies are? Where the hell you get desperation and downtrodden and only taking poor people is in your own mind.

Then why do you argue anything? That's what I've been saying all along. Yes, Mr. Democrat, the military is not guilty of anything. Nice to see you finally admit it. Now if we could only get you to condemn SH's use of the word "bastard" when defining our US military recruiter. I know you won't. Because this is all a dog and pony show to you. You got caught using ad hominem attacks, and supporting and defending a military slanderer, so now you have to come around and try and clean it up. You sound like Obama's wife who got caught saying for the first time in her life, she's proud of her country. Woops. You basically made my argument that what the military does is not wrong. They have a serious job to do. A difficult one at that. And they do deserve our support. Unfortunately, you have chosen to take the side of someone who expressed bitterness with them, and made slanderous commments as to their intent. That's not my problem, that's yours.

One of your favorite tactic is selective memory. He explained those feeling pretty good. I also expanded on it a little.

Nope. He called our recruiters "bastards", and never said he was wrong for it. He was not remorseful in any way. And here you are trying to defend him. In many ways, you are no better. This is just another betrayal by you against our people in uniform.

BTW, here is some more stuff from SH for you to defend:

I fail to see why you're such a big supporter of the military at the moment and why we should give the government more personnel for a useless and senseless war to begin with.

The only reason why they go to schools to recruit is because they know kids are stupid and easy to influence. If they can bag their quota, then they're happy. They don't care, otherwise. They just don't care.

I fail to understand your logic. A bunch of 14, 15, and 16-year olds are not fit for the military. They're not even old enough to go (unless our beloved president has lowered the bar for recruitment; funny that they still can't drink or smoke). You found their decision to disallow military recruitment in a school disgusting? Unbelievable. Un-fecking-believable.


Isn't all this just sweet? I'm sure you have no problems with any of this slander.

The only one talking about guilt is you. How the military recruits is no big secret. Again, they go where the bodies are. You don't think they offer big bonuses to be good'ol boys do you. I'm still not finding where anybody has said downtrodden and poor. SH said he doesn't approve of recruiters targeting students. He can disapprove if he wants to without getting a ration of s#!t from the likes of you.

I love how you try and rehash old dialogue.:roll: The spin on it is funny as well. SH called these recruiters bastards who target underage kids. Big difference from disagreeing with their methods. To me that's unecessary slander and total hostility. But I do expect that from the worst of the Democrat party by now. The thing I'm amazed of most is the loathing Democrats seem to have for our military people. And to justify anything said with the "right to say it" is cheap talk. Either you support our military or you don't. But supporting them is not tantamount to allowing somebody to slander and trivialize their recruitment mission. Even attacking those who try and defend the honor of our military people. And there is absolutely no way for you to prove your support when you have defended somebody that showed outright hostility at these recruiters.

Where do you get military haters from? In fact who are these others. They wouldn't happen to be fluffy pink elephants would they? You need to take another of your pills. Come down to reality.

Those that call the people who recruit "bastards". Those who say these recruiters make them sick. Those that compare our soldiers to Nazi's. Those who say the war is a lost cause while we have people in theatre. Those that make the claims that our Marines are killing innocent Iraqi's in cold blood. Those that threaten to pull funding from them. Those that say we can't win while our troops are out there fighting for their lives and the success of the mission. Those that push to kick Marine recruiters out of their city as though recruiting is a crime. And those that defend and support any of these slanderers. The issue is not going to go away for you despite your weak attempts here to portray it differently. These statements are downright hateful, and show nothing but contempt for our military. And like it or not, they are all from Democrats.

Oh I think I understand perfectly. You and I both understand.

Oh, I understand better than you think. You ain't fooling anybody.

Where does politics come into this. You can't go one day without an attack of Demophobia. Save it for the political threads.

It's quite unfortunate that support for our military has become political. But the only people to blame are those who made it that way. The outright slander from Democrats over our military needs to be defended against. I myself got sick of listening to their demoralizing statements and outright treachery a long time ago. I will always point out their crap. Not all Dems are like this, but those Democrats that do decide to go down that road will get confronted for sure.

Here is a video from a military mom in Berkeley taking on that city council and their idiocy. She lost her son in Iraq. This is how you support the military and it's mission brad. This is how you honor the fallen dead. But obviously for you, this woman doesn't respect the rights of the people of Berkeley, right? I mean after all, they have a right to voice their opinion. Even if the Code Pink activists are blocking the entrance to the Marine Corps station. These are some of the military haters I speak of. This lady wants federal funding to be taken away from Berkeley. I say, right on. It's time to take on the bigotry from the left. I'm sure her words in support of our military recruiters offends you. Listen to all the Dem activists in the background heckling this woman. I'm sure they're saying the same things SH says to the tee. Probably the same exact propaganda word for word. And based on your responses here, I'm sure you would be one of the hecklers. I wouldn't believe the reverse no matter how hard you tried to convince me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6VeLpMloUs

In the America I live in a person can have a difference of opinion. He doesn't like recruiters in school. I don't agree but I'll step on you if I think you are being your usual self to someone because they won't agree with you.
Now go take your pill and go to bed like a good boy.

No, you seem to not like the point of view that calling recruiters "bastards" may be uncalled for. For some reason, you cannot condemn that statement, which is far worse than anything I would think of saying. And my harsh comments are a rebuttal. People can have differences of opinion, but some of you guys need to learn that supporters of our military and the war effort deserve the same benefit. It's not that SH doesn't like recruiters in school. He took it beyond that to outright hatred of them personally. With an ad hominem attack to boot. And false portrayals of recruiting 14 year olds. While he has that right, I will not allow the false slandering comments without a response. That's my right. You certainly have a right to defend this slanderer of our military recruiters, but you can expect a response as well. The fact that you're surprised by any of it is rather interesting to say the least. You and SH certainly have a right to go in that direction if you want, but please don't expect a free ride over it. It ain't gonna happen.

[dean_acheson]

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/02/21/move-america-forwards-new-ad-a-message-to-berkeley/

[bradclark1]

Oh, that for sure is a completely different tone than what you started with. I love it. First you protect and defend somebody that calls our military recruiters a foul name, you create a personal attack from nothing, and now after looking like a fool, have to try and save face by pretending any of this stuff is of any real importance. The only thing that truly matters is that both you and SH have done things to try and damage the honor of US military recruiters. And you got canned on it. This stuff here is inconsequential.
Nope. Unlike your kind I believe that people have different opinions and I can accept that. SH was forward in his feelings on the subject and you call him an ignorant foriegner listening to evil Democrats. How stupid is that? Thats why you and I will always have a problem and like I said I'll step on you. If it's inconsequential why are you running your mouth?
That wasn't the relevant part. Doesn't matter where the initial staement came from. The important part was your sense that somehow it's wrong and people don't like the way it's done.
Funny how it was all relevant but that first small part. Lets get your selective memory back on track.
Not everybody agree's with doing business that way but it works.
Next Comment Down
If people are upset about it "oh well".
Further Down
I don't agree with him but he has that right.
Further Down
Funny, I don't remember me diminishing the rolls of recruiters. I remember saying a few times I don't see anything wrong in recruiters tactics. I have though said the SH is entitled to his opinion.

I'll stop there. Exactly where is this "sense" of yours. Talk fact. Stop trying to use you imagination to say things I obviously haven't.
And indeed you try and drive the point that recruiters do mostly focus on poor neighborhoods as matter of method.
You keep talking poor. Where have I said poor and where do I say they mostly focus on poor neighborhoods? Read what I write Sea Demon. Don't put your imaginative spin on my words. If you want to argue a point don't pull imaginative crap out of your butt.
Like I said , it's really of no consequence anyway.
What? Now the light flipped on in your brain? If it's of no consequence why do you make up "senses" I never "sensed"?
You and SH demeaned our military, and you continue to do so by not addrsssing the real problem here. In that somebody tried to slander our people who recruit and fill the ranks of the service. And you seemingly have no problem with it at all. I've not seen you type a word of condemnation over those remarks.
The problem is is that that small mind of yours can't focus past the word bastard. I also said read his thread and he gives his reason for his feelings. I also as evidenced above said I don't agree with him however he more than explained his feeling on the issue. What you should have done is be aware of the whole and not on a single word. But your little mind is incapable of thought. You gleefully hop on the one word and you make it your life. Grow up!
Usually poor neighborhoods, or less affluent neighborhoods implies this. It's simply another word for poor. But it's design is to stir emotion. I actually saw the Democrat Supervisor in SFO use the word "downtrodden" to define who military people from Jr. ROTC target in SFO schools. I guess that's just another buzzword to try and move the emotionally based myrmidons to slander the military.
The original word was depressed area. You brought affluent into the conversation. In my book depressed is an area with low employment rates. That is an obvious area to recruit from. It's an area to target. Not "they only recruit from poor areas". I'm not the Democratic Supervisor in SFO so don't try to make his words mine!
Then why do you argue anything? That's what I've been saying all along. Yes, Mr. Democrat, the military is not guilty of anything. Nice to see you finally admit it. Now if we could only get you to condemn SH's use of the word "bastard" when defining our US military recruiter. I know you won't. Because this is all a dog and pony show to you. You got caught using ad hominem attacks, and supporting and defending a military slanderer, so now you have to come around and try and clean it up.
What I'm telling you is get over your obsession with a word. He said he respects the military thats good enough. He also explained his feelings, thats good enough. Clean what up? Stop you from being a jerk? Yes.
BTW, here is some more stuff from SH for you to defend:
Read and comprehend it Sea Demon. Read it and understand what he's saying in the whole. Don't just look at words.
Isn't all this just sweet? I'm sure you have no problems with any of this slander.

Quote:
The only one talking about guilt is you. How the military recruits is no big secret. Again, they go where the bodies are. You don't think they offer big bonuses to be good'ol boys do you. I'm still not finding where anybody has said downtrodden and poor. SH said he doesn't approve of recruiters targeting students. He can disapprove if he wants to without getting a ration of s#!t from the likes of you.
Where is the slander in that comment Sea Demon? There isn't any. They go where the bodies are and they offer big bonuses. Where is the slander? They target students? Of course they do. What do you think they are doing there giving out baseball cards? The majority of our military are 18 year olds. It's in your irrational mind.
I love how you try and rehash old dialogue
You are the one bringing it up idiot.
But I do expect that from the worst of the Democrat party by now.
Here we go again. Your fixation with Democrats. You have a mental problem.
Save your politics for a political thread.
Oh, I understand better than you think. You ain't fooling anybody.
I can't say on this forum what I think of you and I'll leave it at that.
More political garbage further down. Keep on topic. Stop trying to deflect.
That's my right.
Yes. Your right is to rebutt. Your right is to argue all you want. It is not your right to belittle people because they disagree with you. Expect me to jump on you every time.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Guys, lets keep this civilised, huh? :-?

[Sea Demon]

Nope. Unlike your kind I believe that people have different opinions and I can accept that. SH was forward in his feelings on the subject and you call him an ignorant foriegner listening to evil Democrats. How stupid is that? Thats why you and I will always have a problem and like I said I'll step on you. If it's inconsequential why are you running your mouth?

Yeah, except you don't allow opinions that defend the honor of military recruiters. SH was very forward in his feelings for sure. He made it well aware of his hostility for US military recruiters. And you made me very aware of the fact that you have no problem with him cursing these recruiters. And you both have no problems with ad hominem attacks against anybody who will stand up to left-wing bigotry against our military. in fact, standing up for it is a bigotry in itself.

Save your politics for a political thread.

It is a political thread. Democrats have turned support for our military into a political issue. It's a shame, but that's the way it is. Saying that it's not is unrealistic. Take a look at the situation in Berkeley today, the ousting of recruiters and Jr. ROTC from schools in SFO, and the craziness from Montpelier Vermont from a couple years back with their own issues with recruiters. What do these places have in common brad? Dem heaven? Politics are indeed a big part of this equation. And it won't go away.

The majority of our military are 18 year olds.

Really? What percentage are 18 years old. Do these people ever age? Does anybody sign up after 20? I think you are incorrect here. Most people in the military are older than 18. 18 is the point at which you're eligible to sign up bnecause at that point you're and adult. You and SH may have more in common than you thought.


The problem is is that that small mind of yours can't focus past the word bastard. I also said read his thread and he gives his reason for his feelings. I also as evidenced above said I don't agree with him however he more than explained his feeling on the issue. What you should have done is be aware of the whole and not on a single word. But your little mind is incapable of thought. You gleefully hop on the one word and you make it your life. Grow up!

The word bastard when defining our military recruiters is quite significant here. And I found his explanations after being caught unsatisfactory. And I have never seen you condemn his statements. Nope, Instead you have gone out of your way to defend him. And have done so with a fury. I can sit here and imagine spittle forming on the corner of your mouth as you feverishly type. You're not upset with any of the hideous comments SH said, you're upset because I defend our military recruiters with vigor. And I find your wholesale acceptance of his explanation interesting. He never showed remorse or regret for the comment. And only backed away slightly from the demeaning tone once he was shown that others would not accept it. Your right to defend this guy who slanders our people is your prerogative for sure. But don't blame me when you get counterfire.

I can't say on this forum what I think of you and I'll leave it at that.

I'm certain of that. Dems who get caught with their pants down by either supporting hate speech against our military, supporting people who demoralize our military, or support our enemies directly usually do hate those who point out how wrong it is. The difference is, I don't really despise you. But I think you are wrong in your focus, mean for supporting a slanderer of the military who said some real foul stuff, and hypocritical for accusing me of being insensitive when you and SH were the attackers to begin with. At any rate, fortunately for you, I have meetings to go to a little later on this afternoon. And I won't be available all day. But you need to get your head screwed on straight and realize what you have been defending. And how it actually affects real people. And how it can be demoralizing to the people who serve. SH made it clear that that he thinks recruiters are predators, looking at exploiting underage kids to join so they can just fill quota's without giving a damn about anybody. SH also questioned how I or anybody for that matter could support the military at the moment because it was fighting the war in Iraq. Whether or not you like the war, don't the people who serve deserve our support? I guess, you and SH don't think so.

Your right is to rebutt. Your right is to argue all you want. It is not your right to belittle people because they disagree with you. Expect me to jump on you every time.

Look who did the belittling to begin with. SH began it all by belittling our military recruiters. I guess for you that's justified though. And you entered the topic in a very hostile and "belittling" manner yourself. Despite your big talk, you simply don't jump on anybody. You trash threads, because others express an opinion critical of somebody who called our recruiters bastards and proceeded to marginalize their mission. You trash threads because perhaps you don't like that somebody critical of the military and making false claims is being called out for it. You trash threads because perhaps you agree with the original claims by SH and other Dems out there saying the same stuff. Sometimes much much worse. I think I have sufficiently addressed both you and SH and your hideous behavior. And you have done nothing to sufficiently address SH's disgusting claims, nor your support in that direction.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Guess not.

[Konovalov]

Guess not.

I think it is a case of trying to get the last word. This thread is going nowhere. :down:

[baggygreen]

not even a 'lets agree to disagree'....:down:

byebye thread?

[Takeda Shingen]

I think that we've all heard enough.

The Management