Do GWX merchants have high powerded telescopic lenses as standard??!?

[Schwuppes]

Hi again guys!


So my watch crew spots this single merchant, weather is good, no fog, no wind... very calm. So then I try to intercept the merchant, I steer a parallel course in order to overtake and outflank him.
I can barely see the very top of his masts and his smoke clouds, he is about 90 degrees to starboard and we both have a AOB of around 90 degrees to each other (perfect parallel course basically).... my WO reports the distance between us and the ship at about 14100 meters.

When suddenly I see the mast ends moving closer together and further apart and so on... an obvious sign that he's started zig zagging (a quick exursion with the external camera confirmed this).
Now I was showing him my full broadside (90 degree AOB), however I still find it hard to believe I was spotted. If I have a hard time making out the very tips of his masts how on earth could he have spotted me at such range I wondered?! Last time I checked the earth was round and not flat if you know what I mean...

I remember playing GWX 1.03 and the merchant AI didn't seem that hardcore to me. Has the merchant AI in GWX2.0 been tweaked compared to GWX 1.03? Or maybe I'm just going crazy... :hmm:

Year is 1939 btw...

Has anyone else made similar observations?

cheers!

[Graf Paper]

Yep. Enemy AI in GWX 2.0 does indeed have "Superman" vision. The only time I've noted an exception to this is in very stormy/foggy weather but, even then, they're still more likely to spot you while your boat has to close to within 700 meters to get a visual in heavy fog.

I've even had them spot the "wake" from an electric torpedo and spped up or zig-zag to avoid it!:doh:

You and I are not the only ones to report such occurances. There's been other threads about those eagle-eyed merchies in GWX.

Perhaps screwing around with the AI, senors.dat, or the "atmosphere" mods that affect visibility have had some unintended consequences.

Sort of makes me miss the good 'ol days when my watch crew had the "vampire night-vision" of stock SH3.

[Jimbuna]

How about considering the fact he is a lot higher in the water, therefore able to see further. Or the fact your not only sideways on showing your biggest profile but also bow wash and stern spray.
They also have a steadier viewing platform to base their lookouts on. :up:

[Brag]

Like Jimbuna says, a lot depends on what you are doing. If you are moving slowly, the merchies don't spot you as easily. :know:

[Abd_von_Mumit]

If a merchant spots you it's not a big problem. I had a DD spotted me and started to shoot before my Watch Officer announced her visit. :damn: She saw me from 8 km distance, and I got:
"We are being attacked by enemy ship!"
"Warship spotted!".
It's quite funny after we managed to evade, but in the moment of the encounter... WOW! Almost heart attack (it was after almost a week of total silence in open seas, you know).

Tommies rock! :rock:

[Graf Paper]

And this also explains how they spot you in bad weather when you can't even get a visual outside of 1000 meters?:huh:

If I recall correctly, didn't historical accounts of merchant sailors often say how U-Boats were difficult to spot, even when looking for them, due to the U-boat's low profile and "dull, dirty gray" color that helped blend it into the environment?

So what rationale besides "monkey in a tree" is used to justify eagle-eye merchies?

Even a monkey in a tree cannot spot the lion in the grass so easily as that.

[Uber Gruber]

So what rationale besides "monkey in a tree" is used to justify eagle-eye merchies?

:rotfl:

[Captain Nemo]

And this also explains how they spot you in bad weather when you can't even get a visual outside of 1000 meters?:huh:

In my experience, in bad weather merchants don't spot you that easily in GWX. I was tracking a convoy in bad weather i.e. heavy fog and overcast when my watchman shouted ship spotted. I went straight up to the bridge and there was a merchant running on a parallel course. He didn't spot me, I just veered off to disappear back into the fog as I wanted to get in front of the convoy to set up my attack.

Nemo

[Kptlt. Siegmann]

I haven't had much of any problems with eagle-eyed merchants. The only occurance that caught me off guard was when I was running parallel to a lone freighter at 3800m at high speed when all of a sudden I was spotted by her, but that was understandable, especially in the calm seas and a bright sunny day.

Had a really funny (but heart-attack at the time) moment last night on my way back from patrol 4. Most of my sailing home was in torturous rain and swells. I had just passed the NW tip of Scapa Flow when I hear a steady roar of a ship engines, in addition to my diesels. I quickly run to the bridge and to my horror discovered a British Destroyer 200m passing in the opposite direction off my port side.:o
I thought I was royally screwed...:help:

http://www.isaf.us/images/dd1.jpg
Taken from the bridge of my boat without binocs

http://www.isaf.us/images/dd2.jpg
Yup, definitely British

Kept on going, never saw me!

(Increased the brightness on the pics to make it easier to see)

[Wilcke]

Yes they will see you! But in '39 you can just run them down and put a magnetic pistol torpedo right up there arse! That stops the zigging and zagging really quick. The rest well you know what to do....

Happy hunting!:up:

[papa_smurf]

I too have been spotted at long range by merchants, to avoid this I dive to scope depth as soon as I spot a ship, and plot a course to intercept.

[Avatar]

on crystal clear days, merchies can spot you from great distances, over 8km to the 16km(if you have 16km vis. range turned on). I reported this and thought there was some change with gwx1.03 to gwx2.0 in regards to visual detection ranges, but someone from the gwx team said that there have been no changes to the detection values between the two.
In very good weather it's best to get as far away as possible to the contact, just to where you can barely make out the color change from their masts and the sky and then do an end-around. While youre turning you may even want to go to 7m just so you dont get spotted until youve opened the range a bit.
I thought a uboat was hard to spot even in good weather, but I guess with the above mentioned posts, this isnt so.

[Grayson02sept1980]

have experienced all the above described cases and it is really frustrating...

Was cruising around Gibraltar at heavy weather... suddenly was hit by two salvos and hull was badly damaged and then just then they told me that there were "enemys spotted"

as I went up to the bridge I saw two DDs... I could have spit into their gunbarrels!

Why is it that my highly experienced Watchofficer with all the "Lametta" (brass) can not spot two DDs in time to help me get the boat under water :damn:

[Avatar]

here are some posts that you should read.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=129419

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=128778

In bad weather, or in any weather for that matter, my computer slows a bit when ships come within detection range(not realistic) but this gives me a clue to start checking for contacts, maybe even submerge for a hydrophone check.

Also not realistic, but in bad weather and when I must be on the surface, I usually go to 7m, this gives you precious few seconds to dive when a ship comes into view. I'm talking heavy fog.

[joea]

All right how fast are you guys going? Remember the wake is what will give you away so once you are in position (outside of their visual range) drop your speed to under 5 knots. Run decks awash too.

It's all in the manual guys, I never have a problem getting close to merchies as long as I am cautious.

[joea]

I've even had them spot the "wake" from an electric torpedo and spped up or zig-zag to avoid it!:doh:



Never seen that myself.

[Schwuppes]

How about considering the fact he is a lot higher in the water, therefore able to see further. Or the fact your not only sideways on showing your biggest profile but also bow wash and stern spray.
They also have a steadier viewing platform to base their lookouts on. :up:

Yes I know about profile, aspect ratio etc... I still was very surprised. I didn't know their higher lookout platform made such a difference. I literally had to glue my face to the screen to see his mast tips and exhaust emissions.

I mean wasn't that how it was done...? Keep the enemy at extreme range so only his mast tips and smoke could be seen?
But I guess thats the way its simulated in the game: If I can see them they can potentially see me too.

But I can dig that... I guess its better to have them too clever than stupid.
I will keep them at even greater distance next time, don't know how far away I can get though, without them suddenly "vanishing" from the screen.

[Jimbuna]

They will only vanish in game when they reach their final waypoint.
As for the nav map,,,,when they are out of seeing distance, then hydrophone range (whilst submerged) http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[Kpt. Lehmann]

So what rationale besides "monkey in a tree" is used to justify eagle-eye merchies?

:rotfl:

Read the GWX manual. The answers are there.

Perhaps screwing around with the AI, senors.dat, or the "atmosphere" mods that affect visibility have had some unintended consequences.

Maybe, when you guys go to 'fix' the sensors you'll have better luck "screwing around" and not run into the same limitations that I/we ran into.

Otherwise, you'll need to build a workaround that may be needed to mask sensor elements that are nonfunctional in SH3.

One caveat. When you "fix" the visual sensors, you must do it without breaking any other aspect of AI sensor detection... The enemy AI sensors (particularly visual sensors) must remain competent/disallow players from doing things that should OBVIOUSLY get them 'killed.'

PS: Electric torpedoes DO NOT have a wake that is detectable by enemy visual sensors in SH3. If a ship is spooked after you fire an electric torp... it spotted something else. (Perhaps your conning tower broached??? Perhaps you were running fast at periscope depth and they spotted your big wake???)

Also, there have been NO visual sensor detection changes made between GWX version 1.03 and version 2.0. (The only sensor values changed in 2.0 related to the maximum range of the RWR's. Ranges were reduced a bit as they are overly reliable and no 'sensitivity' settings for the RWR's could be identified.)

[MarkShot]

First, I want to say that I am having great fun playing SH3/GWX2. It offers many fun challenges.

However, I would like to say that the common sense statement: "If A can see B, then B can see A" is flawed.

Yes, in absolute sense of physics there is no denying this. However, in the real world of biological eyes, there is a concept in ground combat known as differential LOS or sighting which specifical means that "A can see B, but B can still fail to see A". It is a fairly common experience in ground combat.

A is a infantry man well hidden in an elevated tree line where as B is a 30 ton tank moving down a road. A is practically invisible to the tank where as the tank is huge unnatural object churning up a trail of dust as it lumbers down the road.

The point is that in the real world differential sighting is the norm, and not the exception. Although I know much less about naval warefare than I do ground combat, I would wager that differential sighting in fact occurs out on the ocean for a variety of reasons. So, it is not unreasonable to assume that your small low profile sub can spot another larger ship while remain unseen itself.

Thanks.

[Graf Paper]

Easy there, Kpt. Lehmann!

As you might have noticed in your quote of my statement, the operative word was "perhaps". This merely implied the possibility of an error, not the certainty that such error occurred whether or not it was introduced in the current or previous version of GWX.

I have great admiration for the work of the entire GWX team and have greatly enjoyed playing through every minute of my current career with GWX 2.0.

Exploring possibilities is the essence of finding clarity and open discussion of this particular quirk in SH3 is not an attack directed at anyone's efforts, skills, or lack of either. No offense is intended on my part.

That being said, I think that SH3's AI sensors are fundamentally flawed and some very odd behaviors can be observed.

Some recent examples would include merchants having "superman" lookouts while warships seem to be somewhat blind (I'm not the only one to pass within spitting distance of a DD in bad weather only to have them sail on by like I'm not there). The same goes for spotting the wakes of your U-boat or torpedoes. Merchants seem equally as capable of spotting a wake on moonless, fog-bound nights as they do during a clear, sunny day while your own watch crew can't spot a ship even after you've been fired upon by said ship.

That incident of my electric torp having its wake "spotted" may have been a fluke as I generally don't have such troubles with electrics. I was running at 90 deg. AOB from 800 meters, submerged to 13 meters depth and running at 1 knot for maneuvering in normal seas. I kept my scope up only for a few seconds each time, at a height no greater than 13.5-14 meters, as I was making final prep for attack. Torpedo depth was set to 4 meters. After launching my torpedoes, I switched to the external camera as usual to witness the fireworks of my strike. At no time were the seas heaving enough to expose my conning tower. That's why it was a great suprise to me when I suddenly heard the freighter's engines begin laboring to accelerate and she started zig-zagging.


As for the supposed "stealthiness" of a U-boat's coloring and low-profile, well, I suppose us Kaleuns need to remember that, in the SH3 world, you're no more stealthy than a battleship when you're sailing surfaced (at least as far as merchies are concerned). :shifty:

Even if Ubisoft finally honored this community's desire for an official SDK, some of the flaws inherent in the game engine's logic and physics modeling are just too deeply rooted to work around or fix without rewriting the base code.

[joea]

Graf Paper, have you tried some of the tips on this forum or in the GWX manual? Watching your profile (bow on is better) decks awash (actually works in GWX not so well in stock), and very important watch your speed. I can't stress this enough as what the AI (and in reality) sees is the wake not the u-boat itself at first. Waiting on the suface with no engines / 1-2 knot speed really lets them come closer. Note I said let them come closer gotta set yourself up first. Try these tips.

[MarkShot]

How's this profile?

http://home.comcast.net/~markshot/tempimages/lowprof.jpg

[Madox58]

As for the Electric torps.
The only time I have seen them spotted was when I ran them shallow
and they 'skipped' a wave or two.

If they break surface they seem to get spotted.
I never did a follow up testing to confirm this though.

[joea]

How's this profile?

http://home.comcast.net/~markshot/tempimages/lowprof.jpg

Looks good but I see a wake, how fast are you going? Once I get under 5000 metres I cut the speed to under 5 knots, like I said 2 knots or engines stopped.

[MarkShot]

Actually, I was just patroling on a very calm sea. I didn't have an actual contact at the moment. So, I was probably doing about 5kts. As you said, if I was trying to make an approach I could have probably gone down to 2kts. But I think if I had spotted a contact, then I would have gone to PD. Used sonar to work out a rought plot. Wait until they moved off. Surface and overhaul them.