"Kosovo Independence on February 17th"

[elite_hunter_sh3]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080210/ap_on_re_eu/russia_anger_over_kosovo

MOSCOW - Russia may not come to outright blows with the West over Kosovo, but independence for the province seems sure to deepen the Cold War-style chill settling over Europe.
Detaching Kosovo from Serbia will likely aggravate disputes over a host of sensitive security issues ranging from missile defense to NATO membership for the former Soviet republics of Georgia and Ukraine.


"There are several different issues coming together — that's what makes it so dangerous," said Anatol Lieven, a Russia expert who is a professor at King's College London and a senior fellow of the New America Foundation in Washington.


Kosovo is sacred to Serbs, who call it the cradle of their statehood and religion. The province also strikes a chord in the President Vladimir Putin's Kremlin — for reasons beyond the roots Russia shares with Slavic, Orthodox Christian Serbia.


Kosovo stands as a symbol of Russia's weakness in the post-Soviet era. Despite its fury over the 1999 NATO bombing of Serbia — denounced by Boris Yeltsin as a return to the "Stone Age" — Moscow recognized a peace deal that put the mostly ethnic Albanian province under the control of the U.N. and the Western alliance.
Putin has built his popularity on restoring Russian pride, pushing to recapture its global clout and showing increasing assertiveness toward the West. That means acquiescence is off the table.


"The issue is not so much Kosovo itself but Russia's grandeur," said Yevgeny Volk, head of the Heritage Foundation's Moscow office.
Speculation that Russia would strike a compromise with the West was shattered last August when Moscow torpedoed a plan for supervised independence by threatening a U.N. Security Council veto.


"Kosovo has become a very successful way to show that Russia has an opinion and does not intend to change it to accommodate anyone," said Fyodor Lukyanov, editor of Russia in Global Affairs magazine. "It's really not support for Serbia, but support for principles."


An independence declaration could come as early as this week, and Moscow says it has developed a secret plan for responding to it :hmm:. Meanwhile, Russians are warning that Western recognition will set a dangerous precedent, legitimizing independence claims from separatists across Europe — Scots, Basques, Turkish Cypriots — and beyond. A report on a government-supported English-language Russian satellite TV channel even threw Vermont secessionists into the mix.


More seriously, Moscow has implied that it could hit back by recognizing the independence claims of Abkhazia and South Ossetia — two Russian-supported provinces in Georgia, whose pro-Western government plays a key role in the struggle for influence pitting Russia against the U.S. and European Union.
Russian hawks might rejoice, but for the pragmatic Putin, the pros are probably outweighed by the cons — at least for now. The move might mean a war with Georgia, a meltdown of relations with the West, and a boost for separatists inside Russia.


"I don't think this is the issue on which Russia will fully confront the West," said Alexander Rahr, director of the Russia/Eurasia Program at the German Council on Foreign Relations. "They have a huge stake in other regions, and there are lots of conflicts to come."
Russia will probably hold back, saving its strength for disputes over U.S. missile-defense plans in eastern Europe and efforts by Georgia and Ukraine to win NATO membership — a far more serious concern for the Kremlin than distant Kosovo.
In the short run, its response will probably be limited to steps such as blocking U.N. recognition of Kosovo, while portraying itself as a protector of international law and the United States as a reckless global bully.


"As to what it will do, I don't think it'll actually do very much," Lieven said.
Last month, Russia's new NATO envoy dismissed speculation that Moscow might send peacekeeping troops to Kosovo.


Putin seems less interested in Serbia as a potential military ally than as an outpost of Russia's growing European energy empire. Kremlin support on Kosovo has already helped it land deals for a gas pipeline and control of Serbia's state oil company, furthering its efforts to increase Europe's dependence on Russia for energy supplies and distribution.


"In a way, Russia has already gotten what it wants — a big footprint in the energy situation in the Balkans," said Rahr.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080210/ts_nm/russia_kosovo_dc_3



Kosovo is expected to declare independence from Serbia next Sunday, but a top Russian official warned that Europe could open a "Pandora's box" if it recognized the move over Belgrade's objections. :hmm:


"It will all be done by Sunday," a senior political source told Reuters, saying Pristina would invite the European Union to send in a planned supervisory mission and NATO to stay on at the head of a peacekeeping force.


The source denied speculation that it would be a two-stage process, with a statement of intent next weekend and an actual declaration in March.
Kosovo hopes for quick recognition from the United States and from the EU, whose foreign ministers meet on Monday February 18, but Russia is dead set against.
"If it comes to a unilateral recognition of Kosovo, that would be a precedent," First Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov said at a conference in Munich.
"That would definitely be beyond international law, and it would be something close to opening a Pandora's box," he said, meaning it could lead to unpredictable outcomes.
He said Russia would not, however, respond tit-for-tat by immediately recognizing independence bids by two Georgian breakaway provinces it supports.


SERB SECESSION
Kosovo's minority Serbs are also planning a virtual secession of their own, with proposals to establish an "assembly" next Saturday in the Serb-dominated Mitrovica region of Kosovo's north, the Kosovo Albanian daily Zeri reported.
It said the assembly was part of a Serb scheme to "create a separate political and territorial entity with special links to Serbia."

Serbia recently opened a government office to oversee public services in Mitrovica , saying it would "intensify" Belgrade's parallel network of services for Serbs. The United Nations, which has administered Kosovo since Serb forces were expelled by NATO in 1999, called it a "provocative act."
"Everything must be done for (Kosovo) Serbs to remain on their land and to live safely as citizens of Serbia after an eventual unilateral declaration of independence," Serbia's Ministry for Kosovo said in a statement on Friday.
Analysts say Serbia, if it can't keep Kosovo, wants to divide it, keeping control of the north, where it already provides health, education and administrative services for Serbs.
Kosovo's independence move was delayed three times in the past year, in deference to Serb-ally Russia's insistence on continuing talks in search of an elusive compromise, and because of its explosive impact on Serbian politics.


PRELUDE TO CHAOS
Despite two elections -- one general, one presidential --, Serbia is still deeply split. Nationalists are determined to halt talks on closer ties with the EU if it goes ahead with recognition. Pro-Western parties say the bid for EU membership must be the country's priority.

The ruling coalition is on the verge of collapse.
Parliament speaker Oliver Dulic told the daily Vecernje Novosti on Sunday that an early parliamentary election was one of the options to resolve the crisis, which will be discussed by pro-EU President Boris Tadic and nationalist Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica later this week.

If Kostunica kept turning to hardline nationalist opposition parties to support his unbending position on Kosovo, the coalition would fall, Dulic added.
Labor Minister Rasim Ljajic said everything in Serbia "had ground to a halt," adding: "This is a prelude to chaos." (no really??!!! :roll:)
well, on feb 17 SHTF, i wonder what Russia will do:hmm:, they better not screw us over:shifty:, US is already bogged down in Iraq and Persian Gulf, by the looks of it they dont have the resources to bomb serbia (again.:roll:). EU doesnt dare clash swords with Russia. most likely it will be a small proxy war.. shouldnt erupt into anything serious.. :dead::-?

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Assuming it will come to blows atall :-?

[sonar732]

MO Guard Training For KFOR Deployment (http://moguard.com/DisplayArticle.asp?ArticleID=209)

[sonar732]

US is already bogged down in Iraq and Persian Gulf, by the looks of it they dont have the resources to bomb serbia (again.:roll:). EU doesnt dare clash swords with Russia. most likely it will be a small proxy war.. shouldnt erupt into anything serious.. :dead::-?

Us being in Iraq and Afghanistan doesn't mean a hill of beans to the ability of our Navy and Air Force to bomb targets. If you remember right, a carrier can move.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

hooray... 17,000 UN troops + KLA terrorists VS 38,000 active duty serbian troops,plus another 2,000,000 civilians fit for military service.. dont forgot our Russian Brothers.. they havent ruled out sending their boys over to fight with us.. this is gonna turn ugly next week ....:-?:-?:down:

[bookworm_020]

This makes me more and more greatful to live in Australia. We share no land borders and no civil wars in our past to cause divisons!:up:

[elite_hunter_sh3]

LUCKY :up: , plus Australia is at a tactical advantage for being a big Island :rock:,

[JSLTIGER]

This makes me more and more greatful to live in Australia. We share no land borders and no civil wars in our past to cause divisons!:up:
Yeah...that penal colony of yours has done just fine for itself...:D

[nikimcbee]

So when do we start the countdown for the NATO air campaign.:roll:

[Konovalov]

This makes me more and more greatful to live in Australia. We share no land borders and no civil wars in our past to cause divisons!:up:
Yeah...that penal colony of yours has done just fine for itself...:D

And we wouldn't have it any other way. :smug:

[XabbaRus]

hooray... 17,000 UN troops + KLA terrorists VS 38,000 active duty serbian troops,plus another 2,000,000 civilians fit for military service.. dont forgot our Russian Brothers.. they havent ruled out sending their boys over to fight with us.. this is gonna turn ugly next week ....:-?:-?:down:

Do you have any proof for this statement? I haven't seen anything in western press about Russia sending troops to fight for you. They aren't that dumb.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

thats right.. you havent seen anything in the western press.. they obviously dont want people to know ;), they have a few hundred thousand troops.. they havent been to war in a few years.. and they are loaded rich because of the natural gas and oil revenue they've been profiting from...whats to say they wont?:hmm:

[antikristuseke]

From where im stining, which is prety damned close to the russian boarder compared to most posters here, Russia is busy flexing its muscles to restore pride in citizens and dealing with internal issues rather than preparing for an active conflict so I doubt that they would send troops in to fight.

[XabbaRus]

Yea elite when I said press I mean Russian too I notice I omitted that. I can read that language you know, unless I have to read some crap like Komsomolskaya Pravda which publishes anything.

So the Russians haven't been to war for years, that's a great reason. There's an election coming up, no bloody chance Russia will come in and help.

Although I don't agree with Kosovan independence I can't agree with your ideas either.

[antikristuseke]

Komsomolskaya Pravda


With pravda (truth if memory serves me correctly) in the name, how could anything printed in it be anythung but...

Yeah, that "news"paper is something of a runing joke here.

[Konovalov]

Oh brother. :roll: The young boy Elite is gonna pull out his guns and go to war. :zzz: Wake me up when it's all over.

[baggygreen]

i cant help but wonder if he'll break down in tears when there isnt the military unrest he seems to be hoping for.. no hundreds of thousands of russian troops marching across the border...

funnily enough, after the bloody nose they got in Chechnya im pretty sure the russians arent spoiling for another provincial fight any time soon..

[Skybird]

US is already bogged down in Iraq and Persian Gulf, by the looks of it they dont have the resources to bomb serbia (again.:roll:). EU doesnt dare clash swords with Russia. most likely it will be a small proxy war.. shouldnt erupt into anything serious.. :dead::-?

Us being in Iraq and Afghanistan doesn't mean a hill of beans to the ability of our Navy and Air Force to bomb targets. If you remember right, a carrier can move.British government sources admitted within 24 hours after the war that their precision ammunitions fell for dummies in over 90% of the cases. I repeatdely referred to that, some years ago. Serbian army forces withdraw from Kosovo almost undamaged, and maneuvering out in good order, and without any significant losses. So what to do in the future, then? For the most bomb civilian targets, infrastructure and dummy targets again?

the balkan is the border area where europe fades out, and others fade in. I am willing to leave it to the Slavic sphere of influence. They have interests there, Europe has not, and preventing a march of Islam again is in both side'S sinterest - only that Russia may be willing to privide the needs to ensure that, while Europe will never be willing or capable to do that. So let the Russians have their will there. It's in our interest, and they will even pay the show all by themselves. Can't be any better for europe.

[Brag]

Bombs and aircraft carriers. Toys that should be removed from the reach of American politicians. Then they may start using their brains on international relations. And any nutto knee jerker who wants to call me a liberal better know he is talking to a Marine.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

i obviously will break down in tears, it means our government is corrupt and pathetic and a disgrace to serbs, kosovo is our religious and cultural homeland, during the 60s-80s tito encouraged albanian immigration into the area and didnt secure the borders.. 60% of the albanians living in kosovo are illegal immigrants, i dont know what country your from baggyGreen, but how would you feel if another race illegally walked in , then created a known terrorist organization thats supported and funded by al qaeda, who start massacring civilians, then your country sends in troops to destroy the terrorists.. and in the end gets bombed by a world superpower... how would you feel?? i can speak for a huge majority of serbs and say that yes, we will all break into tears knowing our cultural and religious homeland fell into the hands of islamic extremists who are corrupt, members of mafia and mass murderers....:cry:, we will go to war.. wether we like it or not, its our religious homeland.. we went into battle against all odds agaisnt the ottoman empire, 1 of our Princes died on the battlefield, ottomans had close to 40,000 troops, while we had around 15-20,000 , we had only a few hundred troops in full battle armor , while 90% of the ottomans were in full battle armor.. we dont care if we lose, we would rather die fighting for our homeland then watch it rot away at the hands of a bunch of mafia run islamic terrorists who have no respect for anyone but themselves... so in final.. yes i will cry... and so will my family.. and millions of other serbs around the world.. god help us.:cry:

[Jimbuna]

Oh brother. :roll: The young boy Elite is gonna pull out his guns and go to war. :zzz: Wake me up when it's all over.

Me too :zzz:

[AkbarGulag]

Kosovo 'independance' is a travesty of justice. When the albanian majority was given near complete autonomy in the early 80's, all they did was expel Serbs. Over 1 million if I read correctly.

If Kosovo becomes independant, the terrorists win and any countries sovereinty is open to debate with their immigrant populations. All they need to do is terrorise you into giving in to their demands. I know many Bulgarians see Nato as the aggressor here also, that in itself speaks volumes for the alliance.

But war? Russia will do nothing. Neither will anyone else... eventually Kosovo will join with Albania, despite the paper attempts by the europeans to make it appear they won't. Where next for the Albanians? Maybe Macedonia would make another juicy slice also.

[JSLTIGER]

Well...it appears elite was correct. Kosovo declared its independence this morning.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080217/ts_nm/kosovo_serbia_dc_27

[Steel_Tomb]

So you guys are saying that the genocide committed by the Serbs in the '99 campaign give the population of Kosovo no right to independence? :nope: The acts that Serbia committed in Kosovo removes them of the moral right to govern the region, I'm happy for Kosovo and the population, lets hope that their state is a successful and peaceful one... the Balkans has seen enough bloodshed and turmoil in recent years, I hope this brings it to an end.

In my opinion Putin is just trying to cover his own supplies of energy. and couldn't give a damn about the population of Kosovo. Another factor is that I believe he is frightened that Chechnya might want to break away, stopping Russia from plundering the provinces natural resources. Its time that the world actually realized the rights of small provinces/states and gave them the rights that they deserve (where that is applicable of course, I'm not saying make Yorkshire and independent state because it wants to etc).

[sonar732]

Unfortunately, neither side is blameless in the genocide of each other's countrymen.

[elanaiba]

Well, this will certainly give an answer to those people saying that accepting Nato intervention in Kosovo will lead to them breaking away...

[XabbaRus]

SteelTomb just so you know there is a reverse genocide going on in Kosova. Serbian villages surrounded like outposts in a wild land. Serbs being kicked out of homes and what does the UN do? I don't know because you never hear anything about that as it might make Serbians look like not such the bad guys.

As for Chechnya, read your history and its claims for independence are groundless. I don't agree how Russia went about it but I have no time for the cause of Chechen independence either. And before you go on about poor Chechens, they weren't so nice to the ethnic Russians living there before either of the wars kicked off after the collapse of the USSR. But hey that news isn't reported over here as Russiasn would get sympathy.

Allowing this to happen is setting a precedent which will make the world a more unstable place. Christ every body and their dog want their own land...tell me where will this stop?

[CCIP]

SteelTomb just so you know there is a reverse genocide going on in Kosova. Serbian villages surrounded like outposts in a wild land. Serbs being kicked out of homes and what does the UN do? I don't know because you never hear anything about that as it might make Serbians look like not such the bad guys.

As for Chechnya, read your history and its claims for independence are groundless. I don't agree how Russia went about it but I have no time for the cause of Chechen independence either. And before you go on about poor Chechens, they weren't so nice to the ethnic Russians living there before either of the wars kicked off after the collapse of the USSR. But hey that news isn't reported over here as Russiasn would get sympathy.

Allowing this to happen is setting a precedent which will make the world a more unstable place. Christ every body and their dog want their own land...tell me where will this stop?

Great post :up:

I'm so glad elite isn't on the forum right now, I could really do without his tirades on the subject. I think in the next couple of days we'll see that Serbian and Russian reaction over this will come to nil. I can't say 100% about Serbian leadership of course, but Russia will certainly remain pragmatic about this. I think we all saw this coming, and I honestly don't think that it's worth fighting or even wasting resources over.

[Stanny]

Serbs have got,what they have deserved.They are not a nation of fighters.If you do not protect the integrity of your homeland,earlier or later it will be divided to several independent regions,or even occupied.

Do you remember the protest demonstrations during NATO bombing campaign in April,1999?Protesting,demonstrating with music shows is just everything they can.They may forget Kosovo for ages now.

I would like to express my sincere congratulations to all people of Kosovo,as they approached a long awaited end in their aspirations for independence finally.

[XabbaRus]

The Serbs got what they deserved. What a black and white answer.

all this celebrating over the independence of Kosova is a joke. I wonder if people will think this is such a great thing a few years down the line whne we see more fighting there and such like around the world. Dark times are coming.

[CCIP]

The Serbs got what they deserved. What a black and white answer.

all this celebrating over the independence of Kosova is a joke. I wonder if people will think this is such a great thing a few years down the line whne we see more fighting there and such like around the world. Dark times are coming.

Indeed. Don't even get me started on the economic viability of Kosovo. The term "Mafiastan" will certainly become more and more applicable to it.

[Stanny]

The Serbs got what they deserved. What a black and white answer.
all this celebrating over the independence of Kosova is a joke. I wonder if people will think this is such a great thing a few years down the line whne we see more fighting there and such like around the world. Dark times are coming.

Yes.Our world is a big junction of everybody's interests.If you loose something,please don't be angry at somebody.You just did not protect it properly.International political relations are not the exception.

As for the coming of dark times,I am optimistic,as always.Everything wil be all right. :)

[sonar732]

A little OT...but I forsee someone creating a mission in SC and DW for this situation.

[Steel_Tomb]

Ok, we may have our different views about Kosovo's independence... But lets all be happy for them, they've created their own state and are obviously thrilled about it.

As for Serbia been to blame, its 50/50 really, I didn't know about any prior attacks against Serbs before the massacres so I stand corrected on that, but Serbia had no rights to do what they did... its a war crime, plain and simple. Serbia's horrific acts opened the door to UN and NATO intervention, if they couldn't see it coming then more fool them. I agree that Kosovo has blood on its hands too, but I'm glad they've got independence, its what every small state like that dreams of.

Russia too has a lot of blood on its hands from Chechnya, I agree the Chechens aren't innocent in the argument, but what Russia did to that country/province is completely barbaric... they didn't just attack they completely decimated the area and killed an awful lot of people. The Russian Government never ceases to amaze me in its self greed and pathetic views to freedom of speech and basic human rights. I have no quarrel with the Russian people, they are a proud people... but I pity them for being ruled by such a arrogant single minded regime, whose only goal is to make itself look powerful and keep and iron grip on the population.

I would also like to say I'm no expert on political views, so feel free to correct me on anything I may have said!

[AkbarGulag]

I didn't know about any prior attacks against Serbs before the massacres ....


The only Massacre evidence given was a mass (about 14 people) grave pointing towards mecca after the Serb reaction. Why would serbs bury genocide victims pointing towards mecca. Makes no sense.

The fact no one heard about Kosovan atrocities against serbs is the point XabbaRus is trying to make. They were a daily occurence leading up to Serb military intervention. I suggest everyone go and read a little on the regions history before saying 'the serbs got what they deserved, they commited genocide'.

And someone from a baltic state saying 'you just didn't defend it properly' well, I guess thats true in your nations case. I'm glad your confidence in NATO allows you to have your own opinion finally. So when will the Russian speaking people in the Baltic States carve their own land out? I guess NATO has a bigger gun and that is your point, the Serbs don't. very pragmatic.

[Stanny]

And someone from a baltic state saying 'you just didn't defend it properly' well, I guess thats true in your nations case. I'm glad your confidence in NATO allows you to have your own opinion finally. So when will the Russian speaking people in the Baltic States carve their own land out? I guess NATO has a bigger gun and that is your point, the Serbs don't. very pragmatic.

Well,I am very proud of the fact,that Lithuania,Latvia and Estonia are all with NATO and European Union.I wish we never had a russian rule here,cause it brought only negative consequences to us.Occupation,massive political repressions and changed way of peoples thinking.People are still angry and harsh,because they were mistreated for 70 years,they were manipulated as some kind of toys,you can do everything with.The biggest problem of Russia was,is and will always be-they do no respect their own people,they do not care about human rights at all.

As for the russian speaking people of the Baltic States,I must say that they are quite double-faced.They are whipping U.S.A and NATO on the russian forums,affected by Putin's aggressive political propaganda on TV,and call themselves real patriots of the Baltic States and believers in western democracy at the same time here in Lithuania.

[Yahoshua]

I'll be throwing my 2 cents in here shortly....

[joea]

Serbs have got,what they have deserved.They are not a nation of fighters.If you do not protect the integrity of your homeland,earlier or later it will be divided to several independent regions,or even occupied.


Yea? Tell that to the Turks, Austrians or Germans. :roll:

[Stanny]

Yea? Tell that to the Turks, Austrians or Germans. :roll:

By saying "got what deserved" I was meaning the separation and division of their country and not serb possible mistreatment by albanians.They were doing really nothing useful to keep their contry in one piece.I repeat,only demonstrations,some kind of music shows and concerts under falling guided bombs.It was a circus and nothing else.

Turks have got a Kurdistan problem.And as I know,up to the present time they had been dealing with it quite effectively.Austria and Germany are both in the European Union and Schengen Treaty zone.There are no borders between two these countries,and there are no troubles for both Austrians and Germans to choose a place of living for themselves,either in Germany or in Austria.It is a concept of happy Europe in action,an implemented Jean Monnet's vision.

[XabbaRus]

What could Serbia do, please tell me.

As for Baltic states and others being in the EU. Well up here in Aberdeen we have had a massive influx from the new EU members they are starting to put a strain on the local resources, forming their communities and not integrating with the local population. Now the ones I know here, my company has a load of Poles, and some Czechs, do work hard and the work they do is of good quality but they don't mix.

Also we have also got the problem of the less desirable elements of easter europe coming over, ie Mafia and organised criminals. The number of eastern european women working the streets is noticeable and since the succession of the new EU countries.

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,druck-535923,00.html


(...)
But the West too is faced with a difficult problem. Europe is often quick to base foreign policy decisions on rulings made by the United Nations Security Council. Should the EU recognize Kosovo, however, it will be directly countermanding UN Security Council Resolution 1244, adopted in 1999. The resolution explicitly reaffirms "the commitment of all member states to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other states of the region."
(...)
Given the current situation, Kosovo's split from Serbia was unavoidable. But it is a further step on a dangerous path to the dissolution of the nation state. While the consequences in Kosovo and in Serbia will likely be less dramatic than feared, the move will have a dangerous effect on a number of regional conflicts the world over."
"It is very possible that Kosovo will not be the final episode in the disintegration of the former Yugoslavia. The Bosnian Serbs are also interested in secession (from Bosnia-Herzegovina). And the West will have problems explaining why one is against a Republika Srpska when Kosovo's secession was deemed acceptable. Keeping the artificial state Bosnia-Herzegovina together against the will of the Bosnian Serbs will, in any case, be difficult."
A simple reference to Kosovo being a unique case and thus not a precedent is, in any case, neither very convincing nor very helpful. Every independence movement claims the right to self-determination and sees itself as the victim of repression at the hands of a central power. The case of Kosovo will encourage all such movements to continue their struggle. There is a good reason why countries with their own separatist movements -- like Spain with the Basques -- had the greatest reservations about the recognition of Kosovo."
(...)
When the celebrations have come to an end, it will become clear that money and prosperity don't just fall from the sky and that European investors won't be waiting in line to do business in the Balkans' poorhouse.
(...)
But the small country, with its 2.1 million inhabitants, is hardly economically viable on its own. An important objective of independence was to end the uncertainty surrounding Kosovo's status in order to make it attractive to investors. They will only come if there are stable government institutions in the country and Kosovo rapidly introduces European standards. Independence is not an end in itself, but rather the beginning of a long and arduous path.

It is worth to remark that these days the big Bertelsmann-Stiftung has released it's yearly report on how the world politically chnages, and the came to the alarming conclusion thta in more and more countries demcoracies are defect, become hollowed out and turn into hulls inside which criminal structures, family structures and oligarchies take over the state. Comfoprtably they exlcuded the Western states from such characterization (on which I disagree), but knowing quite well the widespread corruption and the influence of criminal family clans, the UCK and the Albanian mafia, I do not see a rosy future for Kosovo even if EU aid starts flowing - much of the money, the most of it, will simply disappear.

I just hope that nobody is quick now to get Kosovo into the EU. that means nothing but troubles for the EU, with Russia, with independence movements throughout europe and the world. Maybe it is true that leaving Kosovo to Serbia was no realistic alternative. But I cant see the current developement being much better.

In other words: it is the Balkans.

[Skybird]

For German readers: the infamous role of the Us in enforcing the independence of Kosovo, degrading Slovenia (currently haunted by a state crisis over this) to a receiver of orders, pressing american interests into policies of the EU, and ignoring the sensibilities of Russia, this article gives a good summary. agaion, two old names pop up: Dick Cheney and Halliuburton, with having economic interests in a region that just years ago was under control of a guerilla that Washington labelled as a terror organization, now shakes hands with as a "freedom movement". Political unscrupulousness of the finest, in the name of kicking through the only wanted economy order tailored for the interests of the West, and especially the US.

http://www.heise.de/bin/tp/issue/r4/dl-artikel2.cgi?artikelnr=27310&mode=print

[Stanny]

What could Serbia do, please tell me.

As for Baltic states and others being in the EU. Well up here in Aberdeen we have had a massive influx from the new EU members they are starting to put a strain on the local resources, forming their communities and not integrating with the local population. Now the ones I know here, my company has a load of Poles, and some Czechs, do work hard and the work they do is of good quality but they don't mix.

Also we have also got the problem of the less desirable elements of easter europe coming over, ie Mafia and organised criminals. The number of eastern european women working the streets is noticeable and since the succession of the new EU countries.

Yes,big levels of emigration have been an urgent problem since the expanding of European Union.That is primarily caused by unprofessional policy of our goverment,especially in social and economic segments.You see,our authorities still have Soviet way of thinking,they went to power back in 1991 and do not want to let fresh,young,european modern educated people in.That results in very low salaries,budget depending primarily on taxes,and all other negative consequences.

But situation is gradually changing,salaries are getting higher,authorities are planning to launch new tax reduction laws.I think all this earlier or later will attract all our emigrants from U.K back to their left homes.

As for Serbia,I will give you a straight answer.They should took AK's and RPG's into their hands and start a real war with NATO,up until the last soldier,start a guerilla war,and so on.Like Chechens in Chechnya.They were scared and now they are paying for it,as there is no respect for cowards both in everyday's usual life and international policy.

[Foxtrot]

As for Serbia,I will give you a straight answer.They should took AK's and RPG's into their hands and start a real war with NATO,up until the last soldier,start a guerilla war,and so on.Like Chechens in Chechnya.They were scared and now they are paying for it,as there is no respect for cowards both in everyday's usual life and international policy.
So...are you ready to apply for the leadership job? :D

[Stanny]

So...are you ready to apply for the leadership job? :D

That is not my business.That is their country and they should think how to protect it's integrity.Because nobody actually cares about constant screamings "We are good and NATO is bad",as serbs are used to scream.If you can fight for your country-fight for it,if you cannot,be prepared that somebody will grab piece of it off.

[joea]

Yea? Tell that to the Turks, Austrians or Germans. :roll:

By saying "got what deserved" I was meaning the separation and division of their country and not serb possible mistreatment by albanians.They were doing really nothing useful to keep their contry in one piece.I repeat,only demonstrations,some kind of music shows and concerts under falling guided bombs.It was a circus and nothing else.



You misunderstood me. I meant that the Serbs fought against the Turks (Ottomans) to get independence, the Austrians in WWI and the Germans in WWII. In all 3 cases they gave a good account of themselves.

[Stanny]

You misunderstood me. I meant that the Serbs fought against the Turks (Ottomans) to get independence

Serbs were also very fierce fighters in World War II,when they were combatting Hitler's forces.I can't understand what happened to them after 1999.First,they were opposing NATO and all the international community regarding Kosovo and provided heavy support for president Slobodan Milosevic during NATO Air Campaign.After that,they changed all their public opinions owerthrowing Milosevic and passing him to tribunal in Hague,choosing a course for integration into EU.Now,they are again confronting EU and NATO in the same kosovar question.

Don't you think that serbs are lacking some sequence both in their national public opinion and foreign policy?

[poor sailor]

Just look at this videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyBxcWNfrrQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccQec5ZPNWg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3-9tqEBWBM&feature=related

F-117 "stealth" or better said visible fighter, in this case NATO trash!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-CyCD8039o

Kosovo IS and always WILL BE a part of SERBIA! Not with war of course, diplomatic way! We believe in Russians and other countries to help! Facts are here, just look at the videos! Big unjustice is made for my country and it's very easy to be a thousand km away and tell's a storries about war like a video game. I experienced this and don't want to wish any country to have a problem like this because it's terrible, believe me!

[catar M]

hooray... 17,000 UN troops + KLA terrorists VS 38,000 active duty serbian troops,plus another 2,000,000 civilians fit for military service.. dont forgot our Russian Brothers.. they havent ruled out sending their boys over to fight with us.. this is gonna turn ugly next week ....:-?:-?:down: you are worry m8 "hooray.our Russian brothers" you haven't larned anything it must be your nature . I can't understand why some countries can split up in Peace but in former Yugoslavia it's so much of a problem

[Stanny]

These are only words and nothing else.You should follow the example of Chechens-one AK-47 per three men,one is dying other is taking his gun and fighting,and up to the last alive soldier or guerilla fighter.That is how the independence should be fought for.

Here in Lithuania,we were fighting soviet occupation and communism for 70 years.Many people died,were sentenced for long terms of imprisonment for political accusations.But still in the end we got independence from Russia,that we were seeking for the very long time.

[antikristuseke]

What could Serbia do, please tell me.

As for Baltic states and others being in the EU. Well up here in Aberdeen we have had a massive influx from the new EU members they are starting to put a strain on the local resources, forming their communities and not integrating with the local population. Now the ones I know here, my company has a load of Poles, and some Czechs, do work hard and the work they do is of good quality but they don't mix.

Also we have also got the problem of the less desirable elements of easter europe coming over, ie Mafia and organised criminals. The number of eastern european women working the streets is noticeable and since the succession of the new EU countries.

Concidering the short time it has been since hte baltic states have been members of the EU and haw few years that massive influx is lasted it would be a bit unreasonable to expect them to have integrated into society without distinguishable communities within communities.
As for what you said in your earlyer post about Russians in Baltic states wanting their own independant parts, well here in Estonia most Russians would fight and ive their life for that not to happen, those vocal *******s who complain about suposed human rights violations against the Russian population in Estonia are not a majority, like the riots in Tallinn last spring showed. After that the average russian speaking estonian has become even more alienated from their suposed countrymen who pound by the Kremlins rethoric.

[XabbaRus]

What it's been 2 years now since they entered the EU. The UK was one of the main areas they came too, and many still can't speak English and they make no attempt to integrate which before you make comment I'd be more than happy for them to do.

When we go out at work, all the Poles just sit by themselves round a table even when invited over make no effort.

Those who complain are never in the majority, even though the russians are the largest minority. And I suppose human rigths abuses against Russians are supposed, with the Russians I know who live in the Baltic states are speaking **** then?

[antikristuseke]

Those who complain are never in the majority, even though the russians are the largest minority. And I suppose human rigths abuses against Russians are supposed, with the Russians I know who live in the Baltic states are speaking **** then?

They might be and they might not be, there have been individual cases, but that is a very rare exeption, not the rule.

[sergbuto]

What could Serbia do, please tell me.

As for Baltic states and others being in the EU. Well up here in Aberdeen we have had a massive influx from the new EU members they are starting to put a strain on the local resources, forming their communities and not integrating with the local population. Now the ones I know here, my company has a load of Poles, and some Czechs, do work hard and the work they do is of good quality but they don't mix.

Also we have also got the problem of the less desirable elements of easter europe coming over, ie Mafia and organised criminals. The number of eastern european women working the streets is noticeable and since the succession of the new EU countries.

Yes,big levels of emigration have been an urgent problem since the expanding of European Union.That is primarily caused by unprofessional policy of our goverment,especially in social and economic segments.You see,our authorities still have Soviet way of thinking,they went to power back in 1991 and do not want to let fresh,young,european modern educated people in.
And who/what prevents people from electing/voting for those fresh,young,european modern educated? It's been 16 years, still blaming soviets for not having proper income now.

[sergbuto]

What could Serbia do, please tell me.

As for Baltic states and others being in the EU. Well up here in Aberdeen we have had a massive influx from the new EU members they are starting to put a strain on the local resources, forming their communities and not integrating with the local population. Now the ones I know here, my company has a load of Poles, and some Czechs, do work hard and the work they do is of good quality but they don't mix.

Also we have also got the problem of the less desirable elements of easter europe coming over, ie Mafia and organised criminals. The number of eastern european women working the streets is noticeable and since the succession of the new EU countries.

Concidering the short time it has been since hte baltic states have been members of the EU and haw few years that massive influx is lasted it would be a bit unreasonable to expect them to have integrated into society without distinguishable communities within communities.
The thing is that they demand to be distinguishable communities within communities like f.e. Poles demand having schools in Polish in UK.

As for what you said in your earlyer post about Russians in Baltic states wanting their own independant parts, well here in Estonia most Russians would fight and ive their life for that not to happen, those vocal *******s who complain about suposed human rights violations against the Russian population in Estonia are not a majority, like the riots in Tallinn last spring showed. After that the average russian speaking estonian has become even more alienated from their suposed countrymen who pound by the Kremlins rethoric.

As to Russians in Baltic countries, there is no need to listen to vocal complains or Russian propaganda. The term "non-citizen", invented in Baltic countries and officially used by the state, tells it all.

[Stanny]

And who/what prevents people from electing/voting for those fresh,young,european modern educated? It's been 16 years, still blaming soviets for not having proper income now.

I will try to explain.Baltic States are independent for 16 years only.Lithuania,Latvia and Estonia by their sizes and other geographic data are fairly comparable with Belgium,Holland and Denmark.Those countries were building their economies for ages,they had a Marshall's plan after the World War II.

Instead,we had a Comrade Stalin and happy way into global communism for long 70 years.This is like when man put into a metal cage starts degrading in all aspects after somewhile.That's why there is a normal salary of 5000 EUR in let's say Belgium and 800 EUR in Lithuania.Miracles do not happen in the real world.Everything comes in a proper time.

What it's been 2 years now since they entered the EU. The UK was one of the main areas they came too, and many still can't speak English and they make no attempt to integrate which before you make comment I'd be more than happy for them to do.

You must take into consideration that there were not the most talented and not the best our people that emigrated to U.K. and Ireland.There were primarily people without higher education,that had big difficulties finding jobs in their homeland.

[antikristuseke]

As to Russians in Baltic countries, there is no need to listen to vocal complains or Russian propaganda. The term "non-citizen", invented in Baltic countries and officially used by the state, tells it all.

Good point, but if they want citizenship they need to meet the standard, having lived hear for a long time does not cut it. Learn the language, the history and follow the laws and enjoy your citizenship with all its benefits and downsides. Or they have a choise of geting a russian citizenship and going back if that suits them better, but so far they seem to want to do neither.

[Steel_Tomb]

The thing with immigration that gets me is why just come mainly to Britain? I mean surely France and Germany would pose attractive places to settle and make a new life? Its closer too... oh... yes... Labour is throwing money left, right and centre at immigrants. They come in, get benefits... bring their whole family over, claim a council house and more benefits, then they start demanding that the UK accommodates their every need... well sorry it doesn't happen like that. I mean for pity sake there are probably thousands if not millions of brits who are out of work because local jobs have been taken by the tidal wave of cheap foreign labour, and yet our government does nothing to help us "British jobs for British people", yeah my arse are they! People are struggling to find homes because of the current market prices, but if you come from overseas you get a home for free! I'm sorry, this is a bit of a rant... but this issue really p***es me off big style. :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn: :down: :down: :nope:

[Stanny]

The thing with immigration that gets me is why just come mainly to Britain?

:lol: Well,yourself you answered the biggest part of the question.I think that most of our potential emigrants associate Britain with some kind of european U.S.A.,or heaven on Earth.They think that they will be getting river flows of money,a good house and a nice car just after they arrive to U.K.They would emigrate to U.S.A. if not extremely strict U.S. emigrational laws and troubles getting visas.

Some emigrants go there just temporary to earn some money,in order to buy,a let's say their own housing when they return to their homeland.Other find the cost of living (accomodation,food prices etc.) lower in Britain compared to possible profit levels,than that in their native country.

I understand what you are talking about and why you are rather angry,as far as I now eastern boroughs of London are already non-british primarily,I mean only emigrants are living there.Ireland is also full of emigrants,especially Lithuanians,we always get top votes there during Eurovison Song contest. :D

[Foxtrot]

I am neutral on the subject for the most part, but I laugh at the Serb menatlity with it's "Where one Serb is buried, that is Serb territory!". Well, there are lots of Serbs buried in Canada and the US. Wanna try and take them over? :shifty: