screwed by auto targeting

[claybirdd]

Granted i've never tried Manual targeting as it seems way to complicated (too much going on to quick) and damnit im captain i should just have to say fire tube 1. That beieng said I sailed up to Guam in Nov. 43 and decided to see what was going on in one of the ports. cant remember the name. I run across a minesweeper doing a patroll and medium European Composite just siting there all still about 100 yds AWAY FROM THE PIER. got within 1300 yds and fired 3 fish at a stationary target with 0 angle on bow. All 3 missed wide right.:down: so either my WO is completly burned out and needs r&r or Auto targeting is screwed and im gonna have to learn Manual which seems impossible:damn:. BTW running ROW+T.M.+RSRD
any advice or ideas would be very welcome and thanks in advance.

[Linavitch]

Manual targetting isn't THAT hard. And the reward for a sinking sure outweighs the difficulty. As long as you leave map contacts on you can check you solution on the attack map (F6 in TM)

Also check out the SCAF mod which replaces the mast with the funnel as the reference point for the stadimeter.

[tedhealy]

I agree, give manual targeting a try. It's actually pretty easy once you get over the initial learning curve.

1. ID ship.
2. Get range, guesstimate AOB, guesstimate speed.
3. Set tdc to follow target.
4. On the bottom dial, watch the generated bearing to target by mousing over the top part of the wheel. Compare that to the actual bearing to target over time (how long? Depends on how much time you have. Sometimes I'll check the two bearings every few minutes, sometimes I'll watch them continuously, and sometimes I'll watch the tdc generated bearing with the scope down and have the sonar man call out the bearings to see if they match).
5A. If the actual bearing is out in front of the tdc generated bearing, either you have underestimated speed, or are off on AOB - increase tdc speed and/or change AOB.
5B. If the actual bearing is lagging behind the tdc generated bearing, either you have overestimated speed, or are off on AOB - decrease tdc speed and/or change AOB.
6. Make any adjustments to range/AOB/speed and repeat 4 and 5 as needed until actual bearing and tdc bearing hold the same for at least the estimated time of the torpedo run. If they hold the same, you can't miss barring any target course changes or bad torpedoes.

[Linavitch]

One thing to add to Ted's post: Using TM you can auto ID the target. This is often the hardest step IMO, espicially at night.

One thing to add to my post: Once you have manual down you'll never go back!

[Snuffy]

With manual targeting you don't necessarily have to ID the ship. And unless he's taken it out, Ducimus has an auto ID function in his TM.

[claybirdd]

thanks forthe replies. just got through watching Neil's video explaining TDC while attacking a yamato. Seems really straight forward and enticing. However, in his video he is just guessing the speed. Granted i'vebeen playin about a year and know the usual speed of ships, but is their a proper way to eastimate speed? Or like Neil do you just pull it out your butt? Also in T.M. is ship ID automatic or is their a hotkey?

[Snuffy]

Icon that I know of ... if there's a hotkey I haven't been using it.

[tedhealy]

My first guess at speed is usually half of the target's top speed with some observation on the target's bow spray thrown in. The 2 other methods I use are the 3 minute rule (distance target has moved over 3 minutes, then knock off the last two zeros to get speed - 900 yards = 9 knots) and just plain old plotting distance and using the nomograph.

[Linavitch]

If you've got SJ radar installed it's a piece of cake to determine speed with the 3 minute rule.

Also the TDC will also determine speed for you as long as you take two readings with the stadimeter. Just click the clock on the speed dial and your crew will give you course and speed.

[claybirdd]

nomograph:damn:. I've read how to use it but i think ill try the three minuite rule.

[Linavitch]

nomograph:damn:. I've read how to use it but i think ill try the three minuite rule.

Are you imperial or metric?

If Imperial 3 min at 500 yds = 5 knots
If metric 3min 15 sec at 500m = 5 knots

So now you've got all three pieces of info it's easy to see how the Nomograph works.

Use the ruler to draw a line connecting 3 min, 500 yards and 5 knots. See how they all line up on the diagonal?

Now if you only know two pieces of the info you just connect them two, but expand your line and the nomograph will calculate the third for you. Simple.

[claybirdd]

I love this forum. your responses are Very helpfull and i think im abou to restart my career about say early '43 (so i can get SJ radar) and fire up the TDC.:arrgh!: the WO needs some R&R after his horrible aim on a stationary target. BTW im Imperial.

[Linavitch]

I love this forum.
Me too buddy. Everything I printed above I learnt off here earlier.

AFAIK SJ radar is available fairly early on in TM.

I seriously recommend the SCAF mod I mentioned earlier. It's a LOT easier to align the top of the funnel on the stadiemeter than the mast. The recognition manual even has a nice red mark for you:up:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=126016

Good hunting

[Snuffy]

Nah, go for broke and take a Sugar out ... :)

Don't get no better than that!

[Ridgeback]

If you've got SJ radar installed it's a piece of cake to determine speed with the 3 minute rule.

Linavitch,

The SJ radar and my inability to get accurate ranges from it is one of my pet hates.

Are you using the A-scope to plot ranges and then use the 3 minute rule? If so, how do you do it with any accuracy?

I'll name my third-born after you if you have any advice that might make the SJ more useful for an actual attack :D


.

[Linavitch]

If you've got SJ radar installed it's a piece of cake to determine speed with the 3 minute rule.

Linavitch,

The SJ radar and my inability to get accurate ranges from it is one of my pet hates.

Are you using the A-scope to plot ranges and then use the 3 minute rule? If so, how do you do it with any accuracy?

I'll name my third-born after you if you have any advice that might make the SJ more useful for an actual attack :D


.

This assumes you have map updates ON.

Then just plot speed and bearing on the Nav map. TM introduced zig zags so if a ship zigs before my intercept I'll work on the premise he'll zag after an hour. Guess where I'll be waiting?

BTW the name is Edward Elizabeth Hitler. Can I come to the christening?

[claybirdd]

Do you guesstimate AOB?

[Linavitch]

Do you guesstimate AOB?

Yep. I'm getting pretty good at it too.:up:

I recheck my TDC data every 3 min and the solution gets more accurate the closer the target gets to the firing point.

[Ridgeback]

This assumes you have map updates ON.
Ahhhhh. I've just started playing without map/contact updates. Trying to get decent radar range/bearings is frustrating to say the least. Thanks, anyway.

BTW the name is Edward Elizabeth Hitler.
Nice. You must have had fun at school...:D

[walrusbomb]

IMHO, if you're playing auto-targeting, just go ahead and download the SUPER CREW mods... you'll be a lot happier in the long run.

you'll kill planes instantly as a bonus.

p.s.
It's how I introduce my younger (xbox generation) relatives to the game.

[Schlippittz]

Does manual targeting really involve as much math as I fear it does? I'm hopeless with numbers (my brain deal in words, not digits) and I've never used manual targeting because of my math deficiency. I can remember historical names and places at the drop of a hat, but formulae just don't lodge themselves in my grey matter.

[Linavitch]

Does manual targeting really involve as much math as I fear it does? I'm hopeless with numbers (my brain deal in words, not digits) and I've never used manual targeting because of my math deficiency. I can remember historical names and places at the drop of a hat, but formulae just don't lodge themselves in my grey matter.
Assuming 'Map Updates on'

Try this:-

Radar contact (probably about 15nm away): The map will position the target for you. Use the pencil and make a mark on the map at the position of the ship. Start the stopwatch.

After 3 min (assuming imperial) make another mark. Use the ruler to measure between the two marks. If the distance is 500 yds then the speed is 5 knots. If the distance is 1200 yards then the speed is 12 knots. No maths needed, right?

Keep the stopwatch running.

Now use the ruler again. Click about half way on the line you just drew. Extend the ruler along the line and through the 'contact'. This will give you a bearing (make sure you have the tool helper enabled). Now zoom out and plot this line for about 30nm and click again. You now have a course for your target.

After 6 min double check the target speed and course. If everything is the same you're good to go.

Plot a course that will take you to to 90 degrees of the target course we drew above. Depending on whether the target is moving towwards or away from us we may want to adjust our speed. Finish the course about 1nm away from the target course.

Click the 'time to course end button' In this example we'll say 0.7 of an hour (give or take 45 min)

Measure form the the contact to our intercept point. Lets assume speed is 7 knots and distance is 1400 yards. Now using the nomograph we can see that at 7 knots it will take the target 2 hours to travel 1400 yards (Again see earlier post for easy nomograph use). This means we'll be there a looong time before our target.:up:

Once in visual range, order periscope depth and battlestations.

This is our basic intercept done. No Maths needed.

Onto the solution.

Periscope up. Lock target. First we need to ID the target. I use the auto button with TM. We know the speed from earlier so set that in the TDC.

We can also have a guess at the AOB. If we can only see the bow of the target the AOB is 0. If we can see the entire length the AOB is 90. So we need to guess where the target is in relation to the graphic on the TDC. ( It doesn't matter if we're wrong ATM)

Lastly, take a range by aligning the 'ghost image' with the top most mast of the 'real image on the stadimeter (again I recommend the SCAF mod which uses the funnels for reference points).

Turn the PK on.

Using the attack map we can verify the solution. We know the speed is right. The map will give a visual repretensation of our solution against the the actual ship course and range. By fine tuning the inputs into the TDC you'l be able to align the PK (white X and line against the actual target course in red). Once they converge you've got the perfect solution:up:

Once you've got this down it is actually TOO easy so I now only check my solution every 3 min with a quick re-entering of the data. I'm hoping to progress to 'No map update' so I'll probably be posting for help soon myself!

Whilst I can see how it may be daunting it really is quite simple and requires no mathmatical expertise.

Hope this helps and Good Hunting.

[claybirdd]

Finnaly found a target southof Guam a few minuites ago. Playin with T.M.+RSRDp.III+SCAF. Came across 2 Large old passenger carriers and had a perfect set up, I sat still for around an hour waitin for em to come right to me. I had the lead targets speed down to 12 kts. for sure. Once within visual distance I took several range estimations spaced apart. everything was looking preety good but i was constantly second guessing myself with AOB. Just prior to my firring the attack map showed the white x about 100 yds further fromactual target, (like i misjudged range) but the white was equal to about the middle of the target, and the white line was pointing pretty close to their course. Fired a 3 shot spread 5 degrees apart and all 3 missed going across the bow between 25 and 75 yards. on a side note my second and third fish didnt have as much angle on them when watching through the camera. the first fish was obviously the clossest

Deffinatly not gonna give up though. The game is obviously ment to be played on manual TDC and if I can just stop second guessing myself i think with time ill get it. I saved my game just before they came within visual distance. Must've smoked 4 or five cigs durring that settup and attack. Wonder if the real skippers were doing the same.

[claybirdd]

After 3 attempts on the target i have still missed every time. Thougfh my TDC skills are improving a bit. I notice i keep my scope up may to long. My main problems are AOB, and not knowing exactly when to fire. ANY ideas??

[Linavitch]

After 3 attempts on the target i have still missed every time. Thougfh my TDC skills are improving a bit. I notice i keep my scope up may to long. My main problems are AOB, and not knowing exactly when to fire. ANY ideas??

Have you tried the sub school mission vs the Mogami? Speed is 10 and Aob is about 85 when you start so this means you only have to really practice the stadimeter.

As with anything practice is the key!

[jazman]

One thing to add to Ted's post: Using TM you can auto ID the target. This is often the hardest step IMO, espicially at night.

One thing to add to my post: Once you have manual down you'll never go back!

Once you have manual down, you wonder how you'd play without it.