Is the AI cheating?

[ruskoz]

My sub seems to be a easy find for all looking. Everytime a ship that has sub countermeasures comes anywhere near me they find me fast and sink me. I have tired everything from deadstop, 1knot...silent running. Any ideas?

SH 1.4, TM 176

[ruskoz]

this is crazy!!! I has fairly good at SH3 100% real...I cant do anything to be undetected in SH4. I can site still when i first get sight of convey and they still will come right to me everytime?? Im not a noob to the SH series either.

I have spent the last 2 nights trying to figure out way and all i can say at this point is this is a waste of time. Im about to shelve this if i cant solve this super AI crap soon. i like the game but something is wrong?

Any ideas please!

[Captain Vlad]

That sounds odd, I usually don't have much trouble getting away from the escorts provided the water is deep.

Tried getting below the layer?

[donut]

Take-out those damn escorts:damn: Stop a couple of marus from range safe max first,to eat later.Hit the tankers in the engine room. Dip your scope,run silent,daylite come in range under thermal,nite decks awash in closer,Mk 14 for range,rudder 0 steady course before fireing,open outer doors,attack escorts at flank,manuver,use decoys.:up: Oh,cuties for escorts when they cluster over you,fire at 95 Ft,short flank U-turn,another flank burst to draw cuties back to your area the escorts will be close,dive & wiggle,get back under thermal,run silent.Battle stations loads fish faster,come out of silent when at flank.

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Tun off repair crew and reload torpedo buttons for extra silence. If you got depth go past Thermal Layer at slow speed.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Run silent, run deep :yep::D


RDP

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

I concur with the Completely Expired Bard above.:up:

[SteamWake]

The AI can spot a scope as if it were a flare shot off. :hmm:

Limit your exposure keep a low profile (bow/stern) pointed at the escorts. Only raise the scope for quick peeks. If you intend to avoid the targets go deep as suggested.

Keep silent, turn on silent running, whatever you do dont ping.

Get yourself into a good position where you dont have to do more than a few knots to intercept.

[ruskoz]

I have tried all the above...one example i found a small convey far off, I could only see their faint smoke so igot in front of them and lost visual. I came to a full stop stayed submerged, rigged for silent running, was not loading torps or doing any repairs and scope down and stayed down the whole time. I then time compressed because i was so far ahead of the convey which only had one escort. I ran this same test 3 times, each time the escort makes a b-line to me...I have also noticed the thermal layer has never worked for me I have tried it many times but the escorts keep making passes and they are always deep charging in my direct area.

For some reason they are picking me up with passive detection and zeroing in on me with active pinging making it impossible to do anything but keep moveing at max speed.

[SteamWake]

making it impossible to do anything but keep moveing at max speed.

Never ever go to flank when trying to evade with one exception. If a DD has you lined up and they start their attack run go to flank and turn hard port or starbord. After a few minutes reduce to 1/3 again and continue out.

When the DD's do their attack run they will go to flank rapidly and they are more or less 'blind' at that point. Idea is to keep them guessing.

If they are dropping DC's off the mark smile and creep your way out of their.

If they are picking you up at a distance when your submerged at all stop you must have done something to alert them to your presance wether it be your scope or some other 'noisy' behaviour.

[Quillan]

First, never use time compression when near the enemy. In time compression, the computer takes shortcuts, including detection check shortcuts. Boats that will never see you will spot you under TC. In rough seas at night merchant ships will spot a torpedo wake if you use time compression to cut the wait time to impact. Don't use it.

Second, the AI warships seem to be able to automatically detect you anytime they get withing 300 or 400 yards of you, no matter what. Keep your distance at least 500 yards away from any warship.

[SteamWake]

First, never use time compression when near the enemy. In time compression, the computer takes shortcuts, including detection check shortcuts.

He makes a good point. Since I never do this (TC when in 'action') it never crossed my mind. But now that he mentions it I'd be willing to bet this is the problem.

[howler93]

Assuming the TC is the issue here, should we avoid using it to evade as well? For example, lets say that I just sank the Yamoto (haven't even seen her once!), dived below the thermal layer while at silent running, and the escorts are searching madly. Can I creep away at 1kt using time compression off and on? Or will TC's use help them to locate me?

Thanks,
Howler :arrgh!:

[SteamWake]

Assuming the TC is the issue here, should we avoid using it to evade as well? For example, lets say that I just sank the Yamoto (haven't even seen her once!), dived below the thermal layer while at silent running, and the escorts are searching madly. Can I creep away at 1kt using time compression off and on? Or will TC's use help them to locate me?

Thanks,
Howler :arrgh!:

I wouldent recommend it untill you were a goodly distance from them. Basically if you can hear them youre too close.

[Taurolas]

I've never had escorts head directly at me yet but then again i dont use TC either, on a side note however how many peeps get into good firing positions and then go and open the torpedo tube doors when well within passive sonar range? i know it seems like i'm gettin ya to suck eggs but make sure you open the torpedo tubes before you get within range, i tend to do this on all tubes, dont want to take the chance that passive sonar is gonna pick up the doors opening... if you can hear it they can hear it.

[howler93]

Really? Escorts can hear tube doors opening? I assume that would be the case in RL, but if that's modeled into SH4 that's pretty cool.

[SteamWake]

I've never had escorts head directly at me yet but then again i dont use TC either, on a side note however how many peeps get into good firing positions and then go and open the torpedo tube doors when well within passive sonar range? i know it seems like i'm gettin ya to suck eggs but make sure you open the torpedo tubes before you get within range, i tend to do this on all tubes, dont want to take the chance that passive sonar is gonna pick up the doors opening... if you can hear it they can hear it.

Hrm... I though that once you changed tubes the doors closed behind you. In other words it is not possible to open all doors.

[Snuffy]

TC would be the culprit.

I've always found the sensors to be more ... umm ... well .. sensitive at higher TC ... always remain in 1:1 TC when close to enemy.

[exponent8246]

Dont mean to insult your intelligence here but have you checked the difficulty settings (via the clickable radio pic on the far left of the war room screen)??

I have found that although I set my difficulty up on the main menu, it reverts to a pre-set difficulty setting once a new career has been enabled!!

Found this to my cost on my first campagn mission!!!!:rotfl:

Its just that the most simplest solution is the one that is overlooked all the time!!:yep:

[Nightmare]

Hrm... I though that once you changed tubes the doors closed behind you. In other words it is not possible to open all doors.

I think they fixed it back in 1.3. You are able to select a tube, open the door, select the next tube, open the door, etc. I've have all 6 tubes open and ready using this method.

[Quillan]

Howler, from past experience, I'll use up to about 32x time compression to evade once I'm beyond about 4-6k yards from the escorts if I'm submerged, which is also about the point where I get comfortable turning off Run Silent. Surfaced, I don't use it unless I am out of sight of them totally. Using TC closer than about 4k yards, or using higher TC anyplace within sonar range, is almost a guaranteed detection. I cranked it to 128x once when I was 10k yards away from a convoy moving away from me and one of the escorts turned towards me and went to max speed within seconds.

I keep a book near my computer when I'm playing, and anytime I get to where I can't use time compression I just start reading while letting time pass normally.

[ruskoz]

Dont mean to insult your intelligence here but have you checked the difficulty settings (via the clickable radio pic on the far left of the war room screen)??

I have found that although I set my difficulty up on the main menu, it reverts to a pre-set difficulty setting once a new career has been enabled!!

Found this to my cost on my first campagn mission!!!!:rotfl:

Its just that the most simplest solution is the one that is overlooked all the time!!:yep:


Dude...thx

That was the issue...what ever skill level it was stuck on is what I would call the big brawny mans level. I would have a hard time believing anyone plays it at that level with any success.

[Elder-Pirate]

Unless somewhere in the SH4 settings that may be changed ALL torpedo tube doors close automatically by default after a torpedo is fired in approx 1 second real time.

Nightmare if your running 1.4 then you can not keep all six doors open at one time in the bow nor the four aft. Unless you have changed it in the SH4 settings ( if thats possible ? ).

What they did in 1.3 was fix the door so they would close as that some were not closing and flooded tubes were not letting new torpedoes to be slid into said tubes.

People were complaining about not being able to load torps and I was one of them.

You can set looking right at a DD and hit that Q key all you want and that DD will never hear it, at least in the Sim/Game of SH4. Although he may charge you like a bull it wasn't the torp doors that ticked him off. :lol:

[Mush Martin]

Run silent, run deep :yep::D


RDP

:nope:

Run Surfaced Run em down Run up our colours Run out the guns
Run Rampant Play Wagner and Kick A$$.:arrgh!:


:|\\Schmuck

[ReallyDedPoet]

Run silent, run deep :yep::D


RDP
:nope:

Run Surfaced Run em down Run up our colours Run out the guns
Run Rampant Play Wagner and Kick A$$.:arrgh!:


:|\\Schmuck

Bah!! :roll::yep:


RDP

[howler93]

Howler, from past experience, I'll use up to about 32x time compression to evade once I'm beyond about 4-6k yards from the escorts if I'm submerged, which is also about the point where I get comfortable turning off Run Silent. Surfaced, I don't use it unless I am out of sight of them totally. Using TC closer than about 4k yards, or using higher TC anyplace within sonar range, is almost a guaranteed detection.

Quillan, thanks for the advice...I think your tip about having a book handy is good also!

Much oblidged,
Howler :arrgh!:

[Taurolas]

Unless somewhere in the SH4 settings that may be changed ALL torpedo tube doors close automatically by default after a torpedo is fired in approx 1 second real time.

Nightmare if your running 1.4 then you can not keep all six doors open at one time in the bow nor the four aft. Unless you have changed it in the SH4 settings ( if thats possible ? ).

What they did in 1.3 was fix the door so they would close as that some were not closing and flooded tubes were not letting new torpedoes to be slid into said tubes.

People were complaining about not being able to load torps and I was one of them.

You can set looking right at a DD and hit that Q key all you want and that DD will never hear it, at least in the Sim/Game of SH4. Although he may charge you like a bull it wasn't the torp doors that ticked him off. :lol:

E-P.. i run with all torp doors open for and aft all 10 (i run 1.4 TM 1.7.6 RSRDC and NSM4) if i'm going in for an attack on a main convoy. From past experience i've opened torp doors when within range of a DD (previously i'd been absolutely silent for hours waiting the approaching ships at dusk) and hes immediately gone active on sonar and pinging like hell and this has happened more than once, my only conclusion is that he did hear the torpedo doors opening, well its either that or i was damn unlucky!.

[Elder-Pirate]

Unless somewhere in the SH4 settings that may be changed ALL torpedo tube doors close automatically by default after a torpedo is fired in approx 1 second real time.

Nightmare if your running 1.4 then you can not keep all six doors open at one time in the bow nor the four aft. Unless you have changed it in the SH4 settings ( if thats possible ? ).

What they did in 1.3 was fix the door so they would close as that some were not closing and flooded tubes were not letting new torpedoes to be slid into said tubes.

People were complaining about not being able to load torps and I was one of them.

You can set looking right at a DD and hit that Q key all you want and that DD will never hear it, at least in the Sim/Game of SH4. Although he may charge you like a bull it wasn't the torp doors that ticked him off. :lol:

E-P.. i run with all torp doors open for and aft all 10 (i run 1.4 TM 1.7.6 RSRDC and NSM4) if I'm going in for an attack on a main convoy. From past experience I've opened torp doors when within range of a DD (previously I'd been absolutely silent for hours waiting the approaching ships at dusk) and hes immediately gone active on sonar and pinging like hell and this has happened more than once, my only conclusion is that he did hear the torpedo doors opening, well its either that or i was damn unlucky!.


You are running a Mod, I was referring to stock 1.4 ( I think you knew that ).
OK after Googling I come up with an SH4 thread on how it is done for vanilla, although I do not believe this practice was done in real life ( WW2 ) because if all forward doors were open and flooded the ballast of the sub would be off and you would turn bow down toward Davey Jones Locker. I can't find on Google if they actually did this in real life so I need a little help here.

Here's the threads link. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=111616

Post #31 by pv is IMHO the best for stock 1.4.


P.S. About 30 minutes ago I ran a test with a DD ( a Shiratsuyu I think ). I caught him napping and snuck up on him stopping at 1200 yards. At P depth with scope lowered ( watched with outside camera ) I clicked on the "Q" key repeadily and after about five minutes he put it into high gear away from me, so no they do not hear you in the game. Maybe in real life? Also with my being still, in silent running and scope down I didn't give him an excuse. I'll try again sometime but I am pretty sure their ears are deaf to tube doors. :lol:

[Elder-Pirate]

OK I'm wrong and I apologize. I tried it the hard way ( 1.4 default ) using the "W" key then "Q" but not firing and I got this pic.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/allsixdoorsopen.jpg

All six doors are open. ( :oops: :oops: )

Until the thread I posted in my above post I did not think that worked. Your way using the mod and pv's way do a lot better. I've just fired single shots before carefully timing them. I still like it better that way.......well I'm used to doing it that way.:lol:

[Dantenoc]

Can anybody else confirm that the AI cheats when on time compression?

I use some time compression (usualy 4x) when maneuvering for a shot, and the DD's allways seem to head straight for me :-?. Even so, is it really true that you can't use any time compression at all or else the AI will cheat? Seems like something that would turn off a lot of people on the game, since maneuvering for a good ambush position can sometimes take many hours in game... don't think too many people would be willing to invest that kind of time, no? :-?

[thegroo]

From my experience it's no problem to use up to 16x.
I'm not sure yet about 32x

But over 32x the AI is cheating.

Regards
Dieter

[Dantenoc]

ok, that gives us hope... maybe I should turn down the difficulty down a bit for a while then.

Running TM by the way.

[walrusbomb]

there is a randomness to what enemy warships hear.

they also operate realistically based on a combination of tactical information and professional paranoia.

TM/RSRD:
I've been 2000 yards off a DD's bow while she was actively sweeping, opened the doors and fired a 4-shot spread (at a transport) and still wasnt detected. The fish swam about 400 yards before the DD sounded the alarm (external camera).

It was too late for her, I was already too deep.

Too late for the transport as well.

One tip I'd like to add:
Sometimes it's BAD to use decoys. The decoy is actually what's getting you killed. the DD's will use many different attack patterns once you're detected, all based on the limited information they have. So don't feed them information by dropping a decoy. Their ability to pinpoint the exact origin of your torpedos is far less reliable than our TDC solutions (well, some of us anyway <wink>).

Their ability to track a decoy, determine it's a decoy, and then guesstimate where you'd be had you dropped said decoy is pretty stellar.

[Nisgeis]

OK after Googling I come up with an SH4 thread on how it is done for vanilla, although I do not believe this practice was done in real life ( WW2 ) because if all forward doors were open and flooded the ballast of the sub would be off and you would turn bow down toward Davey Jones Locker. I can't find on Google if they actually did this in real life so I need a little help here.


Take a look at http://hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/tubes/ that's all the operating instructions for the torpedo tubes. It says that torpedo tubes are flooded and drained into a tank on board the submarine rather than the sea itself so as not to upset the trim of the sub flooding tubes.

Reading on a bit further, it says that the tubes can be flooded from trim tanks, the WRT (water round tube?) tank or from the sea (but that would affect balance). When flooding, the tanks can either be vented to submarine or if noxious gasses are suspected, vented externally.

As far as procedure goes on when to flood the tubes, it says that flooding the tubes and keeping the outer doors closed is not a problem for the torpedoes as they are not exposed to the pressure of the sea. It advises that the torpedo tubes should be flooded early in the attack, at least not at a stage of the attack where you are relying on sonar information. Flooding tubes is by means of blowing the drain tank with 200 pound air, so I guess that would be quite noisy, possibly give your position away and certainly interfere with your own listening track of the enemy. It does say though that you should be cautious with opening the outer doors if there was a possibility of sudden depth charging, the pressure of which could overload the breech end and force the breech door open.

I'm not sure, but I'd imagine just opening the outer door wouldn't be overly noisy, it would be the flooding part that would cause the racket.

Upon firing, water from the sea would fill the torpedo tube, which would help to offset the weight loss of the torpdeo. This water would then also be drained into an onboard tank in approximately the same position as the topedo, also by means of blowing air. The tubes could then have the breech door opened for reloading.

No wonder reloading causes so much noise.

[Snuffy]

Whenever you are in contact NEVER run TC over 1:1

It's been stated by several that the enemy/AI sensors become overly sensitive.

I run all contacts at 1:1 on full real and can easily make a getaway as well as an undetected approach.

Usually all hell breaks loose after the first fish are fired. But even so, with depth on my side and the thermal in place, I can usually after a couple hours elude the escorts.

[MarkShot]

Has anyone done some testing on TC? I've been playing SH3/GWX and it seems that you can TC if you are careful.

[Dantenoc]

Whenever you are in contact NEVER run TC over 1:1

Darn... I was affraid of that... my own observations would also lean towards the same conclusion but I was wishing otherwise :-?

@MarkShot: Yes, I used to TC all the time in SH3, usually at 4x so as to still hear all the sounds, and never had any problems, but SH4 seems to be different. Even at 2x you seem to loose some of the sounds and the AI suddenly gets clarivoyant or something.

[MarkShot]

That could be a game killer! An attack and evasion 1:1 can easily take 12 hours.

[walrusbomb]

I don't think it's a bug. I think the problem is your reaction times while in TC. In 1:1, you make evasive manuevers in real-time.

when a DD has you, that last thing you want to do is go straight for extended periods of time. I've noticed that sometimes a DD has detected you long before it makes its move. You hit TC and he strikes.

TC simply exposes what a sitting duck you are.