Clinton: "We Just Have to Slow Down Our Economy" to Fight Global Warming

[SUBMAN1]

Unbelievable. Wrong message to be sending when people are worried about their jobs.

A real president would say "We need to create new companies and jobs in energy efficiency sectors to combat global warming". Not 'lets' slow down the economy. And people are voting for her? What idiots!

Russia, China, and India will have no problem picking up our slack. They won't hesitate either.

The only thing I can think of here is is a hidden agenda to increase dependence on government. Sounds like a communist agenda to me.

-S



"We Just Have to Slow Down Our Economy" to Fight Global Warming
January 31, 2008 9:26 AM

Former President Bill Clinton was in Denver, Colorado, stumping for his wife yesterday.

In a long, and interesting speech, he characterized what the U.S. and other industrialized nations need to do to combat global warming this way: "We just have to slow down our economy and cut back our greenhouse gas emissions 'cause we have to save the planet for our grandchildren."
At a time that the nation is worried about a recession is that really the characterization his wife would want him making? "Slow down our economy"?

I don't really think there's much debate that, at least initially, a full commitment to reduce greenhouse gases would slow down the economy….So was this a moment of candor?

He went on to say that his the U.S. -- and those countries that have committed to reducing greenhouse gases -- could ultimately increase jobs and raise wages with a good energy plan..

So there was something of a contradiction there.

Or perhaps he mis-spoke.

Or perhaps this characterization was a description of what would happen if there isn't a worldwide effort…I'm not quite certain.

You can watch that one clip HERE or you can watch the whole speech at the website of ABC News' great Denver affiliate KMGH by clicking HERE.
It's worth watching -- he also pushed back against a 9/11 conspiracy theorist heckling him.

"Everybody knows that global warming is real," Mr. Clinton said, giving a shout-out to Al Gore's Nobel Peace Prize, "but we cannot solve it alone."
"And maybe America, and Europe, and Japan, and Canada -- the rich counties -- would say, 'OK, we just have to slow down our economy and cut back our greenhouse gas emissions 'cause we have to save the planet for our grandchildren.' We could do that.

"But if we did that, you know as well as I do, China and India and Indonesia and Vietnam and Mexico and Brazil and the Ukraine, and all the other countries will never agree to stay poor to save the planet for our grandchildren. The only way we can do this is if we get back in the world's fight against global warming and prove it is good economics that we will create more jobs to build a sustainable economy that saves the planet for our children and grandchildren. It is the only way it will work.

"And guess what? The only places in the world today in rich countries where you have rising wages and declining inequality are places that have generated more jobs than rich countries because they made a commitment we didn't. They got serious about a clean, efficient, green, independent energy future… If you want that in America, if you want the millions of jobs that will come from it, if you would like to see a new energy trust fund to finance solar energy and wind energy and biomass and responsible bio-fuels and electric hybrid plug-in vehicles that will soon get 100 miles a gallon, if you want every facility in this country to be made maximally energy efficient that will create millions and millions and millions of jobs, vote for her. She'll give it to you. She's got the right energy plan."

In other Bubba News, Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-NY, told the spectacular Kate Snow yesterday that this is her campaign, not Bill's, and told Nightline anchor Cynthia McFadden last night that she can control him.

(Which begs the question -- does she want to slow down the economy?)

-- jpt

UPDATE: Not so difficult to predict -- the RNC just issued a statement in response to the former President's comment.

“Senator Clinton’s campaign now says we must ‘slow down the economy’ to stop global warming," said Alex Conant, RNC Spokesman. "Clinton needs to come back to Earth. Her ‘tax-it, spend-it, regulate-it’ attitude would really bring the economy crashing down. No amount of special effects will hide Clinton’s liberal record.”

Sen. Clinton's campaign, meanwhile, has a new TV ad (watch it HERE) that calls her "the person you can depend on to fix the economy and protect our future."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/01/bill-we-just-ha.html

[XabbaRus]

Ya know I didn't think Bill was too bad but Mrs Clinton eugh..look at what we got with Maggie and I think Hillary is much worse. Power corrupted Maggie after 10 years in office, power seems to have done funny things to Mrs Clinton and she isn't even there yet.

[AVGWarhawk]

I just love Bill. Run Bill run. Talk Bill talk. Watch Hillary's campaign go down the drain. Run Bill run.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

:damn::damn::damn::damn::damn::damn::damn::nope:

[Penelope_Grey]

Communist agenda? LMAO I love when I studied the cold war how paranoid and afraid Americans were of communists. Its almost on the same par as the whole Welsh-English rivalry.:D:D

[SUBMAN1]

I just love Bill. Run Bill run. Talk Bill talk. Watch Hillary's campaign go down the drain. Run Bill run.Hillary endorsed it - read the update! She agrees! :o :down:

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Communist agenda? LMAO I love when I studied the cold war how paranoid and afraid Americans were of communists. Its almost on the same par as the whole Welsh-English rivalry.:D:DYou haven't studied the communist agenda in the US of A I see.

FYI:

Communist Goals (1963) Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35 January 10, 1963

Current Communist Goals EXTENSION OF REMARKS OF HON. A. S. HERLONG, JR. OF FLORIDA IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES Thursday, January 10, 1963 .

Mr. HERLONG. Mr. Speaker, Mrs. Patricia Nordman of De Land, Fla., is an ardent and articulate opponent of communism, and until recently published the De Land Courier, which she dedicated to the purpose of alerting the public to the dangers of communism in America.

At Mrs. Nordman's request, I include in the RECORD, under unanimous consent, the following "Current Communist Goals," which she identifies as an excerpt from "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen: [From "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen]

1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.
2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.
3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.
4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.
5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.
6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.
7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.
8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.
9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.
10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.
11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)
12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.
13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.
14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.
15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.
16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.
18. Gain control of all student newspapers.
19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.
20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policy-making positions.
21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.
22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."
23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."
24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.
25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.
26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."
27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a "religious crutch."
28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."
29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.
30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."
31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.
32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.
33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.
34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.
36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.
37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.
38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].
39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.
40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.
41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.
42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use ["]united force["] to solve economic, political or social problems.
43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.
44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.
45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction [over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction] over nations and individuals alike.

Note by Webmaster: The Congressional Record back this far has not be digitized and posted on the Internet.

It will probably be available at your nearest library that is a federal repository. Call them and ask them. Your college library is probably a repository. This is an excellent source of government records. Another source are your Congress Critters. They should be more than happy to help you in this matter. You will find the Ten Planks of the Communist Manifesto interesting at this point.

Webmaster Forest Glen Durland found the document in the library.

Sources are listed below. Microfilm: California State University at San Jose Clark Library, Government Floor Phone (408)924-2770 Microfilm Call Number: J 11.R5 Congressional Record, Vol. 109 88th Congress, 1st Session Appendix Pages A1-A2842 Jan. 9-May 7, 1963 Reel 12 1963- The Year That Changed America

[Tchocky]

Communists EVERYWHERE! Even Cleon Skousen agrees, and he's a conservative!

fear is good, fear is good. Terrorist threat level has been raised. consume, consume.

[AVGWarhawk]

Communist agenda? LMAO I love when I studied the cold war how paranoid and afraid Americans were of communists. Its almost on the same par as the whole Welsh-English rivalry.:D:D
Penelope...............the USSR was parking nukes 80 miles off the US coast in Cuba.....ummmm the paranoia was real.


Not to mention the three Soviet subs headed to the east coast with nuke torps aboard. All were found and made to surface.

[STEED]

Without the cold war we would never have seen this great TV show.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9C7zmunYivI

One of the upsides of the cold war. ;)

[AVGWarhawk]

Cuban Missile Crisis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis


Was not a paranoid delusion of grandure for sure.

[NEON DEON]

I would not worry about it too much. Half truths in blogs abound.

This one is no different.

[Tchocky]

Without the cold war we would never have seen this great TV show.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9C7zmunYivI

One of the upsides of the cold war. ;)

Oh, excellent book too :)

(I'm guessing, have read it four or five times, never seen the TV show)

[CCIP]

This reminds me of how a couple of years ago, I contemplated joining the Canadian Communist Party, but changed my mind.

...on second thought, reading this thread makes me think I shouldn't have. I could've been such a scary specimen that people would RUN and cry for war when they first heard my party allegiance. Instead I just have to content with being a tall and scary :roll:

[SUBMAN1]

I would not worry about it too much. Half truths in blogs abound.

This one is no different.Watch the video and ignore the blog then.

Remember though - kind of hard to discredit this blog when it is endorsed by a news agency. Hint hint! :D

-S

[STEED]

Without the cold war we would never have seen this great TV show.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9C7zmunYivI

One of the upsides of the cold war. ;)

Oh, excellent book too :)

(I'm guessing, have read it four or five times, never seen the TV show)

Agreed. :up:

Well worth watching Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy & Smiley's People, both were great cold war TV series.

[NEON DEON]

Unbelievable. Wrong message to be sending when people are worried about their jobs.

A real president would say "We need to create new companies and jobs in energy efficiency sectors to combat global warming". Not 'lets' slow down the economy. And people are voting for her? What idiots!


Umm.

Watch and listen to the video on ABC web site of Clinton's speach and tell him he didnt say what you just said a real president would say!:p

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/politics/14131083/detail.html

Oh how I love republican slants

GEESH:down:

[Brag]

The Cold War was quite different than how it was portrayed in the mainstream media. Just like The War on Terror is now.

A good example is the Berlin Airlift. The so called Blockade was simply a ban on West German products. But US and allies made a big theater from it and turned it into a PR disaster for the Soviets.

[SUBMAN1]

Unbelievable. Wrong message to be sending when people are worried about their jobs.

A real president would say "We need to create new companies and jobs in energy efficiency sectors to combat global warming". Not 'lets' slow down the economy. And people are voting for her? What idiots!

Umm.

Watch and listen to the video on ABC web site of Clinton's speach and tell him he didnt say what you just said a real president would say!:p

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/politics/14131083/detail.html

Oh how I love republican slants

GEESH:down:Are you saying that your vid is edited? I'd call that Democratic slant! Seems you got your words mixed up now didn't you? :D :p

-S

[mrbeast]

Communism! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Subman its 2008 not 1958.

[SUBMAN1]

Communism! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Subman its 2008 not 1958.Uhh, communism is alive and well my dear friend.

If not, maybe you should tell these guys - http://www.cpusa.org/article/static/15/

:p

Open up your eyes a little. You seem to have you head buried in the sand.

-S

[Sea Demon]

Communism! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Subman its 2008 not 1958.

So you don't believe there are people out there that are still vying for the fantasy land utopia of Marx and Engel's? If you can't see they exist, you must be asleep. There are many names for it...communism is only one...

[Tchocky]

Communism is indeed alive.

The fear of a communist agenda eating away at American politics is a tad nostalgic, however, like mrbeast said it's more suited to the fifties than today.

[Sea Demon]

Communism is indeed alive.

The fear of a communist agenda eating away at American politics is a tad nostalgic, however.

Communism is alive, but it's soul is quite dead fortunately. I wish lefties could learn of it's failures, systematic flaws, and it's incompatibilities with human nature and be done with it, instead of continuing on with the fantasy.

I'm not so sure it's a "fear" more than it is just vigilance. As the American Democrat Party not only routinely gets endorsed by the CPUSA, alot of their goals seem aligned with the general vision of Communist philosophy in a lighter version. As that often requires the infringement of other people's economic liberty and confiscation of private property to a certain degree, you can say alot of folks are leery of it.

[SUBMAN1]

Communism is indeed alive.

The fear of a communist agenda eating away at American politics is a tad nostalgic, however, like mrbeast said it's more suited to the fifties than today.Don't worry though - they are after you too - http://www.internationalism.org/ :p

-S

[mrbeast]

Communism! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Subman its 2008 not 1958.Uhh, communism is alive and well my dear friend.

If not, maybe you should tell these guys - http://www.cpusa.org/article/static/15/

:p

Open up your eyes a little. You seem to have you head buried in the sand.

-S

Subman I don't know what planet your living on ( planet rightwing fantasist maybe :hmm: ) but I think its you that should open your eyes and rub some of the sand out of them.

Moscow central and COMINTERN are long long gone. You posted a paranoid article about suposed communist intentions to conquer the US written in 1963! So you are taking your information from over 40 years ago. Do you not think its just a little out of date?

Certainly there are still communist parties around theres some over here in the UK too but how many members do you think they have? I'll tell you very few they are tiny fringe groups, Subman. Infact I'd put money on there being more ultra right wing party members in the US than far left.

I'd say that things everywhere were going the other way actually more towards capitalism than communism.

[August]

Communism is indeed alive.

The fear of a communist agenda eating away at American politics is a tad nostalgic, however, like mrbeast said it's more suited to the fifties than today.

I believe sometimes these things tend to take on a life of their own which can survive those who created them.

[Fish]

Communist agenda? LMAO I love when I studied the cold war how paranoid and afraid Americans were of communists. Its almost on the same par as the whole Welsh-English rivalry.:D:D
Penelope...............the USSR was parking nukes 80 miles off the US coast in Cuba.....ummmm the paranoia was real.


Not to mention the three Soviet subs headed to the east coast with nuke torps aboard. All were found and made to surface.

And where did we found US nukes pointed at Russia? :smug:

[Fish]

Communism is indeed alive.

The fear of a communist agenda eating away at American politics is a tad nostalgic, however, like mrbeast said it's more suited to the fifties than today.

I believe sometimes these things tend to take on a life of their own which can survive those who created them.

You mean like religions? :up:

[August]

Communism is indeed alive.

The fear of a communist agenda eating away at American politics is a tad nostalgic, however, like mrbeast said it's more suited to the fifties than today.
I believe sometimes these things tend to take on a life of their own which can survive those who created them.
You mean like religions? :up:

In spite of what the NY Times claims, God is not dead.

[NEON DEON]

Unbelievable. Wrong message to be sending when people are worried about their jobs.

A real president would say "We need to create new companies and jobs in energy efficiency sectors to combat global warming". Not 'lets' slow down the economy. And people are voting for her? What idiots!

Umm.

Watch and listen to the video on ABC web site of Clinton's speach and tell him he didnt say what you just said a real president would say!:p

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/politics/14131083/detail.html

Oh how I love republican slants

GEESH:down:Are you saying that your vid is edited? I'd call that Democratic slant! Seems you got your words mixed up now didn't you? :D :p

-S

You are right subman a real president said that. I just pointed to the Video.

You and Michael Moore should get together and create some slantumentaries, that is if you dont wind up killing each other first. :D

[SUBMAN1]

Subman I don't know what planet your living on ( planet rightwing fantasist maybe :hmm: ) but I think its you that should open your eyes and rub some of the sand out of them.

Moscow central and COMINTERN are long long gone. You posted a paranoid article about suposed communist intentions to conquer the US written in 1963! So you are taking your information from over 40 years ago. Do you not think its just a little out of date?

Certainly there are still communist parties around theres some over here in the UK too but how many members do you think they have? I'll tell you very few they are tiny fringe groups, Subman. Infact I'd put money on there being more ultra right wing party members in the US than far left.

I'd say that things everywhere were going the other way actually more towards capitalism than communism.Maybe you should check what planet 'you' are living on? Let's analyze it. We can name a few countries that didn't get your memo.

1. Lets see, North Korea comes to mind, as does Laos, Vietnam, and even Cuba.
2. You can even choke one up for a major world power who didn't get your memo - China!
3. Countries like Venezuela didn't get it either since they just recently converted.
4. You have Russia trying to put back together the old Soviet Union, and heading that direction every day.
5. Even the UK is heading far away from capitalism, and is very much a Socialist country now and is on the Communist back porch from a political perspective.

We should bring in Steed here. He tells you every day how far down this road you are going. From stupid government control to political correctness gone haywire.

As far as how well they are succeeding in turning this whole world Socialist/Communist, count how many of those points they have won from 1963? I'd say the vast majority of them and they are still going strong. They even pretty much own our democrats in government, so they even have suceeded there. I bet it is going slower than they would like or thought, but it is moving that direction.

Now the most disturbing part - YOU DON'T EVEN REALIZE IT IS HAPPENING!!!! :o Go read that list of 45 points. You might be a little shocked! It mirrors what is on the Communists Parties USA website to a tee!!! Your freedoms are being done away with daily as well, one chip at a time.

Back to the US of A. Half our country is starting to see the light on this. This is why the massively deep divides you are seeing in the American people in the last couple elections. Half are for government ruling our lives, and half want to be left alone to raise a family and live life.

Time has no bearing on the issue. 40 years ago, 4,000 years ago, or yesterday. Doesn't matter. The ideas are still the same. It deeply troubles me that people are losing sight of what is happening, and this is being accomplished through moral decline.

Sad. So I guess you can truely say that I don't have my head in the sand, since I can see past, present, and future clearly.

-S

[silentrunner]

Communist agenda? LMAO I love when I studied the cold war how paranoid and afraid Americans were of communists. Its almost on the same par as the whole Welsh-English rivalry.:D:D
Penelope...............the USSR was parking nukes 80 miles off the US coast in Cuba.....ummmm the paranoia was real.


Not to mention the three Soviet subs headed to the east coast with nuke torps aboard. All were found and made to surface. Seriously Penelope do you know how many communist spies were caught during the Cold War, and even now like:
Alger Hiss
Aldrich Ames
Julius Rosenburg
Robert Hanssen
and the list goes much further on.

[Skybird]

Let's keep it in relation.

The USSR did it's part to sometimes counter American first efforts, sometimes moving ahead and triggering America to counter Soviet first efforts (remember, the cold war was carried out by TWO opponents, and regarding nuclear technology many firsts in weapons were developed and fielded by america first, not russia, which often more or less reacted to SSBNs, ICBMs, MIRVs, Kennedy's monumental nuclear arms program).

Penelope probably did not refer to such an obvious crisis like Cuba, but to the fact that many Americans almost go hysteric when Communism is mentioned. Heck, america already goes crazy when some body is mentioning "social" (not to mention "socialism", which is even something different). This antipathic hype concerning the class enemy of capitalism, communism that is, gave us not only worries about nukes on Cuba - but McCarthy's witch hunt as well. And today's massive undermining of basic rights in the name of security and countering terror, shares quite some similiarities to MyCarthy's paranoia in the meaning of going beyond what is reasonable and helptful, and demanding total control for the purpose of itself - not just for countering communist traitors, or terrorists.

And this forum itself has seen a lot of fury about terms like communism and socialism as well, so... leave it in perspective, guys.

and silentrunner, AVGwarhawk, , do you really thinkm the US navy did not conduct subamrine exercises offshore of Russia, and carried out other acts regarding Russia that you would not be shy to list here if it would have been the russian doing it with regard to America? the cold war was a game of mutual cold agressions. It was not just russia violating america's security interests, and it was not that America never responded on equal terms. In fact, many first steps were beeing taken by america, not Russia. Stop being blind on one eye. ;) Regarding the NATO expansion right up to russian borders of today, opposite to the deals and promises that were given to them before and that the Russian trusted into (a betrayal by NATO for which they see themselves paying a high price now, and thus they are so angry at NATO), and regarding the planned missile sites in Poland and the Czech Republik, america is continuing the cold war game right until today - and then is lamenting over the logical and angry reactions and chnages in Russian policies. When you feel tempted to ventilate about how Putin could dare to do like he does, and to confront the West and give no more cheap presents, do not forget that this is in direct reaction to NATO's behavior of the past 15 years, and the broken promises in these years. Putin once was totally commited to the idea to bring Russia closer to europe, he is a great admirer of Alexander the Great and wanted to continue where alexander had to stop. It's just that the West showed him that such good will would be deliberately exploited for selfish Western interests. what is it wonder then if now he uses the same kind of behavior agaimst the West, not wanting to see his country getting exploited once again?

[mrbeast]

.
1. Lets see, North Korea comes to mind, as does Laos, Vietnam, and even Cuba.
North Korea is not exporting communism. Its an isolated basket case of a country that can't even feed its own population. It rattles its sabre every now and then, gives Japan a poke, thats about it. The US gives it some food aid and oil; it shuts up. Vietnam, Laos are hardly going to start the domino effect. Infact they're trying to get a piece of that good old capitalist pie.

Cuba is a small and weak country that threatens no one. It no longer has the backing of the USSR and once Castro dies I doubt it will stay communist for long.


2. You can even choke one up for a major world power who didn't get your memo - China!
Is this the China that is busily building a capitalist economy?


3. Countries like Venezuela didn't get it either since they just recently converted.
Chavez is pretty left-wing and he likes to goad the US but I wouln't say he is a communist. Quite a few South American countries have elected left leaning governments but I wouldn't say they were communist either.

4. You have Russia trying to put back together the old Soviet Union, and heading that direction every day.

No it isn't.

5. Even the UK is heading far away from capitalism, and is very much a Socialist country now and is on the Communist back porch from a political perspective.

Nope not much evidence for that. For example when a Labour party government (Labour is the left leaning party in the UK, or it was, very centrist now) wants to involve private companies as providers of public services etc (a scheme called PFI or Private Finance Initiative) it don't exactly shout marxist at me.

We should bring in Steed here. He tells you every day how far down this road you are going. From stupid government control to political correctness gone haywire.

The more the merrier. But don't see what 'political correctness' or government control have specifically to do with communism. BTW think this communist axis that is slowly taking over the world has rather limited aims if for example banning the story of the three little pigs is a central plank of its strategy. As for government control think George Bush's government is doing a good job of eroding your rights in the US and increasing control. Is he a communist?


As far as how well they are succeeding in turning this whole world Socialist/Communist, count how many of those points they have won from 1963? I'd say the vast majority of them and they are still going strong. They even pretty much own our democrats in government, so they even have suceeded there. I bet it is going slower than they would like or thought, but it is moving that direction.

Think its best we leave that list of baloney back in 1963.

Now the most disturbing part - YOU DON'T EVEN REALIZE IT IS HAPPENING!!!! :o Go read that list of 45 points. You might be a little shocked! It mirrors what is on the Communists Parties USA website to a tee!!! Your freedoms are being done away with daily as well, one chip at a time.

Back to the US of A. Half our country is starting to see the light on this. This is why the massively deep divides you are seeing in the American people in the last couple elections. Half are for government ruling our lives, and half want to be left alone to raise a family and live life.

The problem Subman is that you have a very basic and crude understanding of what is and what is not communist. You appear to live in a Black/White world where if something is not rugged individalist or fits in with your wold view then it must be communist. You accuse things or people of being communist as if you were a 17th century purtitan denouncing a witch! Its laughable and frightening at the same time how simplistic and old fashioned your views are.

and this is being accomplished through moral decline.

Maybe you are a 17th century puritan? :hmm:

[Penelope_Grey]

Communist agenda? LMAO I love when I studied the cold war how paranoid and afraid Americans were of communists. Its almost on the same par as the whole Welsh-English rivalry.:D:D
Penelope...............the USSR was parking nukes 80 miles off the US coast in Cuba.....ummmm the paranoia was real.
Well...The US parked medium range ICBM's in Turkey first. all the Russians did was tit for tat.

Penelope probably did not refer to such an obvious crisis like Cuba, but to the fact that many Americans almost go hysteric when Communism is mentioned. Heck, america already goes crazy when some body is mentioning "social" (not to mention "socialism", which is even something different).
correct Skybird.

That was presisely what amused me. As for cuba, from what I've read America was just as responsible for that as Russia was.

5. Even the UK is heading far away from capitalism, and is very much a Socialist country now and is on the Communist back porch from a political perspective.

No no no. The UK is far from a socialist country. Ask any Pensioner you like they will soon tell you how un-socialist the place is.

[AVGWarhawk]

[quote=Penelope_Grey]Communist agenda? LMAO I love when I studied the cold war how paranoid and afraid Americans were of communists. Its almost on the same par as the whole Welsh-English rivalry.:D:D
Penelope...............the USSR was parking nukes 80 miles off the US coast in Cuba.....ummmm the paranoia was real.
Well...The US parked medium range ICBM's in Turkey first. all the Russians did was tit for tat.

Yes, but the point being there was every reason to be paranoid. It was real and Americans had every cause to be afraid and paranoid. Yes, we parked a few pointed at Russia and tit for tat, but the threat and paranoia in the USSR at the time was real as well. It was as close as America/USSR got to actually pressing the big red button.

[Penelope_Grey]

I still don't get why America felt the need to set up weapons, blatantly, right on Russia's borders... if that is not a direct display of intention I don't know what is.

Having said that, history will remember the cuban missile crisis 2 ways.

1) as America proving the stronger of the two getting the USSR to back down first. or....

2) as the USSR proving more sensible than American leadership and backing down first to prevent a nuclear catastrophe.

Either way, imagine if Krushchev refused to back down? Would Kennedy really have pressed the button and destroyed the world? Hmm... maybe its a good job Kennedy was assasinated in the long run.

Communism is something to be afraid of I can grant that, but in reality, communism will never work, the reason being, simple human nature. We are selfish creatures, why should I give over what is mine? Its a nice thought to think that the road sweeper and the brain surgeon are equal and of equal worth to society, but as long as people are always looking out for number 1... you get nowhere, that is why communism fails.

[fatty]

Either way, imagine if Krushchev refused to back down? Would Kennedy really have pressed the button and destroyed the world? Hmm... maybe its a good job Kennedy was assasinated in the long run.

To help steer this topic even further off course, you should know that the quarantine was just one step in a progressive chain of options proposed by EXCOMM. IIRC surgical air strikes and amphibious attacks were to follow if the blockades and Stevenson's pressure at the U.N. did not yield positive results. Nuclear war was not an option tabled by EXCOMM.

[SUBMAN1]

5. Even the UK is heading far away from capitalism, and is very much a Socialist country now and is on the Communist back porch from a political perspective.
No no no. The UK is far from a socialist country. Ask any Pensioner you like they will soon tell you how un-socialist the place is.:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: So you are saying the pensioners got screwed? Funny! :D Tell that to Steed. It will set him off again! :up:

-S

[SUBMAN1]

North Korea is not exporting communism. Its an isolated basket case of a country that can't even feed its own population. It rattles its sabre every now and then, gives Japan a poke, thats about it. The US gives it some food aid and oil; it shuts up. Vietnam, Laos are hardly going to start the domino effect. Infact they're trying to get a piece of that good old capitalist pie.

Cuba is a small and weak country that threatens no one. It no longer has the backing of the USSR and once Castro dies I doubt it will stay communist for long.

Is this the China that is busily building a capitalist economy? Make no mistake. All of these countries are very much Communist. They are simply using part of the way that the US does business to compete against the US economically. However, if China tells you that you are going to be a Basketball player, you by god are going to be a basketball player and you will not fail. Talk to some of the executives that screwed up with our toys recently - they were executed - those that didn't commit suicide that is.

All is better now! Toys are safe! We execute CEO! All is better now! Toys are safe!

Funny! :D

Chavez is pretty left-wing and he likes to goad the US but I wouln't say he is a communist. Quite a few South American countries have elected left leaning governments but I wouldn't say they were communist either. Even his opposition says and fears that he will completely suceed. They may not be 100% yet, but at least 80% to 90% already there. Go look at their last elections. SHould show you a thing or two and point out how. Concentrate on his opposition. They spell it out clearly.

No it isn't.Oh yes he is! But we may have more to worry about with the EU being the new Soviet Union than anything - http://www.free-europe.org/blog/?itemid=17 :D - that is the opinion of some of your fellow EU brothers!

The more the merrier. But don't see what 'political correctness' or government control have specifically to do with communism. BTW think this communist axis that is slowly taking over the world has rather limited aims if for example banning the story of the three little pigs is a central plank of its strategy. As for government control think George Bush's government is doing a good job of eroding your rights in the US and increasing control. Is he a communist?Well let me educate you then - http://www.academia.org/lectures/lind1.html :D

Interesting lecture huh? Now you are aware of its orgins when you were once not aware.


Think its best we leave that list of baloney back in 1963.What part of the ideas are the same exactly that you don't understand? Doesn't matter what year it is.

Wise men know to look to the past to get an idea of the future. Those that fail in this end up sailing without a rudder.

The problem Subman is that you have a very basic and crude understanding of what is and what is not communist. You appear to live in a Black/White world where if something is not rugged individalist or fits in with your wold view then it must be communist. You accuse things or people of being communist as if you were a 17th century purtitan denouncing a witch! Its laughable and frightening at the same time how simplistic and old fashioned your views are. I think I have proven whos intellect is crude here, over and over it is yours. This is simply because I think that you are unaware or ignorant of the facts. Ones you have the facts, then you will be able to make a real opinion. Wake up and look around you for once. It is not pretty what is happening. I don't want to sit here and argue your views - read the net. Read up what is a Marxists policy and ideas and you might be a little shocked.

From what I read in your posts though is that you 'accept' what is happening to you. I hope that is not the case. I want to look out for my fellow subsimmer! :up:

Maybe you are a 17th century puritan? :hmm:Now you are being laughable with a direct attack. Please refrain. Thx!

-S

[AVGWarhawk]

Penelope:

Either way, imagine if Krushchev refused to back down? Would Kennedy really have pressed the button and destroyed the world? Hmm... maybe its a good job Kennedy was assasinated in the long run.

Would Krushchev pushed the button? Would Kennedy push the button? No, it was simply a stare down. Like two bullies attempting to be top dog. As far as the assasination comment....you would probably be drawn and quarted in the US to state it was a good job in the long run. Kennedy was a war hero. Inspired a nation to vote in the youngest president ever. We had one picture of a president in our home when I was a kid..it was JFK. One thing Kennedy did not want was to push a button.

[STEED]

5. Even the UK is heading far away from capitalism, and is very much a Socialist country now and is on the Communist back porch from a political perspective.
No no no. The UK is far from a socialist country. Ask any Pensioner you like they will soon tell you how un-socialist the place is.:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: So you are saying the pensioners got screwed? Funny! :D Tell that to Steed. It will set him off again! :up:

-S

The good lady Penelope_Grey is correct, are stinking government looks at pensioners as lay abouts burdening the State and if they could get there way they would kill them all, which they are doing now. Age concern has stated 1 in 10 pensioners must decide to heat there home and go without food or eat and go without heating, I am bloody sick of those pigs at Westminster giving themselves massive pay rises for what? So they can shat over the rest of us.

[Skybird]

Having said that, history will remember the cuban missile crisis 2 ways.

Well, history must remember only this: Kissinger (think it was him) being quoted with "The thing was totally beyond control - we simply were very lucky." (re-translated from the German)

[SUBMAN1]

Having said that, history will remember the cuban missile crisis 2 ways.
Well, history must remember only this: Kissinger (think it was him) being quoted with "The thing was totally beyond control - we simply were very lucky." (re-translated from the German)That is true. Watched a History channel thing on it and Kruskinoff, or however you spell his name, had his finger on the button twice.

-S

[AVGWarhawk]

Having said that, history will remember the cuban missile crisis 2 ways.
Well, history must remember only this: Kissinger (think it was him) being quoted with "The thing was totally beyond control - we simply were very lucky." (re-translated from the German)That is true. Watched a History channel thing on it and Kruskinoff, or however you spell his name, had his finger on the button twice.

-S

Mayhaps a bit of Hollywood suspense:hmm:

[SUBMAN1]

Having said that, history will remember the cuban missile crisis 2 ways.
Well, history must remember only this: Kissinger (think it was him) being quoted with "The thing was totally beyond control - we simply were very lucky." (re-translated from the German)That is true. Watched a History channel thing on it and Kruskinoff, or however you spell his name, had his finger on the button twice.

-S
Mayhaps a bit of Hollywood suspense:hmm:Not according to the people that were there. It would be interesting to find some data that backs this up.

Let me look and see what I can find..

-S

[mrbeast]

Make no mistake. All of these countries are very much Communist. They are simply using part of the way that the US does business to compete against the US economically. However, if China tells you that you are going to be a Basketball player, you by god are going to be a basketball player and you will not fail. Talk to some of the executives that screwed up with our toys recently - they were executed - those that didn't commit suicide that is.

All is better now! Toys are safe! We execute CEO! All is better now! Toys are safe!

Funny! :D

Communism that promotes the private ownership of business, encourages people to become rich on the profits and allows foreign businesses to invest and make money? Communism is based around the notion that the means of production and benefits there of should lie in the hands of those who produce ie the proleteriat. Chinese communism differs slightly from this cassical marxist interpretation with its emphasis on the peasantry. But foreign shareholders and investors are the complete antipathy of this. China has come to the conclusion (and probably correctly) that private enterprise is the best way of guarenteeing economic growth as a command economy is not responsive enough to economic markets and trends etc (the USSR found out about this the hard way). Thats not to say that there isn't government investment in Chinese capitalism, there is, in large amounts too, but thats not something unusual in a capitalist economy.

I'm not arguing as an advocate of China by any measure. The Chinese government likes to still keep a very firm control of chinese society and there are numerous human rights abuses. No doubt Chinese basketball players have little choice in their future career. Get found guilty of corruption and its not a spell in prison but a firing squad that mght greet you.

Even his opposition says and fears that he will completely suceed. They may not be 100% yet, but at least 80% to 90% already there. Go look at their last elections. SHould show you a thing or two and point out how. Concentrate on his opposition. They spell it out clearly.

Well Chavez's opposition would say that wouldn't they. Chavez is still in power because hes popular. Infact hes more populist 'tub-thumper' than communist; the guy has his own TV chat show!

Oh yes he is! But we may have more to worry about with the EU being the new Soviet Union than anything - http://www.free-europe.org/blog/?itemid=17 :D - that is the opinion of some of your fellow EU brothers!

Well let me educate you then - http://www.academia.org/lectures/lind1.html :D

Interesting lecture huh? Now you are aware of its orgins when you were once not aware.

Subman, you can post links to as many right-wing blogs, forums and websites as you like. But they are proof of nothing except the internet is full of political blogs forums and websites. I could pobably post links to a bunch of left-wing sites which would say the total opposite.

Putin is in the process of creating a very statist government and political system in Russia. This involves the strengthening of government control over some sectors. He is attempting to improve Russia's standing as a world power hence all the naval muscle flexing and provocative bomber flights, the internet attacks, the diplomatic spats with the UK and the use of energy resources to gain leverage over countries it regards as being in its sphere of influence.

But I've seen no evidence of a socialist state in creation at all. Authoritarian? Yes. Communist? No.

What part of the ideas are the same exactly that you don't understand? Doesn't matter what year it is.

Wise men know to look to the past to get an idea of the future. Those that fail in this end up sailing without a rudder.

Subman your 1963 list of communist aims is not a difinative list its based on someones opinion of the aims of communism; their slant. Its heavily coloured by 1960s Cold War paranoia, is written from one point of view and one only. Some of its suggestions are ridiculous.

You are correct that it is wise to study the past but the only lessons that can be drawn from the past are general. Not specific. Looking at a list of Germany's aims from 1941 will tell you nothing of her aims in 2008. That is why digging out a list of perceived communist aims from 1963 informs us only of the anti-communist climate in the US during the 1960's.

I think I have proven whos intellect is crude here, over and over it is yours. This is simply because I think that you are unaware or ignorant of the facts. Ones you have the facts, then you will be able to make a real opinion. Wake up and look around you for once. It is not pretty what is happening. I don't want to sit here and argue your views - read the net. Read up what is a Marxists policy and ideas and you might be a little shocked.

Subman, just because you say it is so does not neccesarily make it so. Others have pointed this out before.

Your 'facts' come from biased and slanted sources that have their own agenda to push. Maybe it you who should open your mind and put things in perspective, for example communism taking over the world........not very likely.:nope:


Now you are being laughable with a direct attack. Please refrain. Thx!

Oh I'm sorry I wont call you a 17th century puritan again,

I promise.;)

[Skybird]

Putin is in the process of creating a very statist government and political system in Russia. This involves the strengthening of government control over some sectors. He is attempting to improve Russia's standing as a world power hence all the naval muscle flexing and provocative bomber flights, the internet attacks, the diplomatic spats with the UK and the use of energy resources to gain leverage over countries it regards as being in its sphere of influence.

But I've seen no evidence of a socialist state in creation at all. Authoritarian? Yes. Communist? No.

Couldn't have summed it up any better. I only would add that Russia probbaly cannot be understood or judged by scales of western or any other poltiical rulers and standards and schemes. It will never be like European "democracies", and will not be like american "democracy", and it will not be anything else there is in the world. Russia is Russia. Only from that perspective one can find sense in trying to understand it's history, and present, and forseeable future. trying to descriobe and judge it by western categories will lead nowhere.

[SUBMAN1]

Communism that promotes the private ownership of business, encourages people to become rich on the profits and allows foreign businesses to invest and make money? Communism is based around the notion that the means of production and benefits there of should lie in the hands of those who produce ie the proleteriat. Chinese communism differs slightly from this cassical marxist interpretation with its emphasis on the peasantry. But foreign shareholders and investors are the complete antipathy of this. China has come to the conclusion (and probably correctly) that private enterprise is the best way of guarenteeing economic growth as a command economy is not responsive enough to economic markets and trends etc (the USSR found out about this the hard way). Thats not to say that there isn't government investment in Chinese capitalism, there is, in large amounts too, but thats not something unusual in a capitalist economy.

I'm not arguing as an advocate of China by any measure. The Chinese government likes to still keep a very firm control of chinese society and there are numerous human rights abuses. No doubt Chinese basketball players have little choice in their future career. Get found guilty of corruption and its not a spell in prison but a firing squad that mght greet you. Don't think for a second that anything over there is not state controled. Part of the Communist agenda has always been to open both sides of the market to reap the benefits without the system. Case closed.

Well Chavez's opposition would say that wouldn't they. Chavez is still in power because hes popular. Infact hes more populist 'tub-thumper' than communist; the guy has his own TV chat show! Don't blow this off as nonsense because you don't want to believe it. Wasn't it the UN where he stated that Communism is the way forward?


Subman, you can post links to as many right-wing blogs, forums and websites as you like. But they are proof of nothing except the internet is full of political blogs forums and websites. I could pobably post links to a bunch of left-wing sites which would say the total opposite. Did you bother reading the Politically Correct lecture? Or are you simply blowing it off and stating your opinion? Seems you didn't read it and until you do, I consider you very much wrong here without an educated opinion. And no - you won't find a left based article on it because the left sweeps it under the rug and ignores the white elephant in the room. Read it already.

Putin is in the process of creating a very statist government and political system in Russia. This involves the strengthening of government control over some sectors. He is attempting to improve Russia's standing as a world power hence all the naval muscle flexing and provocative bomber flights, the internet attacks, the diplomatic spats with the UK and the use of energy resources to gain leverage over countries it regards as being in its sphere of influence.

But I've seen no evidence of a socialist state in creation at all. Authoritarian? Yes. Communist? No. I guess you need to define Communism then since all aspects are put in place. An example of their democratic elections right now - A full outspoken communist or the head of the KGB? Sounds like democratic systems out there are pretty much gone.

By the way, the way communism works is that you do not need a central economy to still have communism - this is the part I know you don't understand. You can 'have' a market economy and still have communism. I think this is where you are a little fuzzy. You have lost sight of what communism actually is. That is your problem.

Marxism - this is the problem. You are embracing it without realizing it.

Subman your 1963 list of communist aims is not a difinative list its based on someones opinion of the aims of communism; their slant. Its heavily coloured by 1960s Cold War paranoia, is written from one point of view and one only. Some of its suggestions are ridiculous.Hardly - this was written by the COmmunists of America, not by a US Senator. It is their wishlist, and it is still in effect today. They have achieved the majority of it. To say something from 1963 is no longer valid because of age is completely rediculous and short sighted on your part. THis is where i get you head buried in the sand view from.

Subman, just because you say it is so does not neccesarily make it so. Others have pointed this out before.

Your 'facts' come from biased and slanted sources that have their own agenda to push. Maybe it you who should open your mind and put things in perspective, for example communism taking over the world........not very likely.:nope: I wish you were correct. Problem is, they are not slanted sources. I still have yet to see a single source you posted. I'll I get is your 'opinion'. We all have our opinions, and yours isn't holding any water.

Anyway, It starts with Socialism, and then turns to Communism. Its a beast that grows and gets bigger with time.

Anyway - have a good weekend. We can maybe dabble on the subject a little this weekend, but most likely Monday! :up: I'll probably be off hunting beer this weekend however for a good portion of it!

-S

[nikimcbee]

http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2005/november30/gifs/poster_lenin.jpg
http://thephoenix.com/OutsideTheFrame/content/binary/hillary_clinton.jpg
http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/socrealism/serca250.jpg
http://faculty-web.at.northwestern.edu/art-history/werckmeister/March_30_1999/Mukhina.jpg
http://www.brutallyhonest.org/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/02/hillary.jpg

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/record/archives/vol21/vol21_iss15/record2115.31c.gif

:damn:

[Tchocky]

Subman your 1963 list of communist aims is not a difinative list its based on someones opinion of the aims of communism; their slant. Its heavily coloured by 1960s Cold War paranoia, is written from one point of view and one only. Some of its suggestions are ridiculous.Hardly - this was written by the COmmunists of America, not by a US Senator. It is their wishlist, and it is still in effect today. They have achieved the majority of it. To say something from 1963 is no longer valid because of age is completely rediculous and short sighted on your part. THis is where i get you head buried in the sand view from. Um, no. Those goals are from a conservative commentator, Cleon Skousen. I mentioned this.

But he's right, of course. The only people who speak the truth here are conservatives, because liberals/left-leaning types brush it all away, don't they?
If anyone argues, they must be in the know.

I still have yet to see a single source you posted. I'll I get is your 'opinion'. We all have our opinions, and yours isn't holding any water.
Hell yeah.


Oh, and of course Hillary = Communism. I'm surprised I didn't see it earlier.
Hard to see with all this sand in my eyes. Blinkity blink.