TM planes

[walrusbomb]

greetings. played SH1&2, skipped 3. LOVE SH4 to death.

Running graphical mods only as of yet: ROW, smaller rocks/plants, natural sinking, uniforms, skins. I'm going to finish my career before installing TM/RSRD.


My question: How deep before planes no longer spot submerged subs?


I ask because right now everything is so easy (manual TDC and sonar solutions, of course)... seems like the biggest adjustment will be getting used to aerial visibility.

[M. Sarsfield]

I got bombed with 75% hull damage at 160 ft. I am running TM 1.7.5 along with other mods. I think someone else posted that 200 ft. was a safe depth.

It sounds like a lot to avoid airplanes, but think of the size of the boat and also Pacific water is very clear in some areas in RL. Dive your boat to 200 ft. and then look at it under water from an external view level with the boat. The periscope masts aren't that far from the surface.

[Rockin Robbins]

Ducimus' planes talk a good fight, but they're really just big, fluffy, soft little kitty-cats.:up:

[k1l0]

I got bombed with 75% hull damage at 160 ft. I am running TM 1.7.5 along with other mods. I think someone else posted that 200 ft. was a safe depth.

It sounds like a lot to avoid airplanes, but think of the size of the boat and also Pacific water is very clear in some areas in RL. Dive your boat to 200 ft. and then look at it under water from an external view level with the boat. The periscope masts aren't that far from the surface.

NOT A CHANCE ... light bearly makes it that far :dead:

[Taurolas]

Planes see you and this is why.... and from greater distances!

Take a sphere and place it on the water... that was the original plane sensor file anything from water lvl up could be seen... (if surfaced you'd get spotted).

now take Ducimus's moddification (TM1.7.5 - 1.7.6).. this pushes the sphere into the water which means you have a semi-circular area under the surface which the planes can look into... the exact depth of this sphere is unknown but if you are at periscope depth they will spot your sub, i believe this also depends on height, speed and type of plane so be warned.
whenever i see a plane i now always go to around 200ft if possible and turn at 90' to port or starboard (turning off your original course is crucial) as in some cases they can and will spot you going down and mark this location and will bomb along this heading once you are under, (Note depending on their speed this may take 5 or 10 minutes!) so if you are sat at 160ft and still following your original heading you may be unlucky enough to get a DC or bomb droped down ya tower...

its not so much the fact they can see you at 160ft its that you probably havent moved far enough from your original dive position and you are still on your original course.

[M. Sarsfield]

I was motoring along at 160 ft. for several hours when I got bombed. Maybe Ducimus set the bubble too far below the surface?

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

This is the only thing I don't like in TM. Planes' bombs reaching 100 feet depth and more. In reality a watery surface will have the same effects as a brick wall when a freefalling bomb from over 1000m hits it. :nope:

[M. Sarsfield]

This happened to me in 1.7.5. Maybe Ducimus fixed this in 1.7.6?

[walrusbomb]

thanks for the replies.

I do long to play TM/RSRD some day, but TERMINATOR-style planes scare the bejeezus out of me.

I've taken helicopter tours around The Big Island, Maui, and Oahu and let me tell you from personal witness, the mighty Pacific gets very dark very quick. Good cloud-cover and 100' of Hawaiian water turns icy black.

Sometimes the sun would poke out and the entire ocean became a thousand tiny mirrors.

I stood on the Arizona Memorial and marvelled at the glassy water entombing the Arizona, only to watch the entire ship mostly dissapear as the wind, clouds, and chop changed.

meh.

[clayp]

thanks for the replies.

I do long to play TM/RSRD some day, but TERMINATOR-style planes scare the bejeezus out of me.

I've taken helicopter tours around The Big Island, Maui, and Oahu and let me tell you from personal witness, the mighty Pacific gets very dark very quick. Good cloud-cover and 100' of Hawaiian water turns icy black.

Sometimes the sun would poke out and the entire ocean became a thousand tiny mirrors.

I stood on the Arizona Memorial and marvelled at the glassy water entombing the Arizona, only to watch the entire ship mostly dissapear as the wind, clouds, and chop changed.

meh.

I have been playing SH4 for awhile and currently running TM 1.76 and RSRD..I have yet to be attacked by any planes.....:hmm:

[AkbarGulag]

Being a metric user, 200ft is all french to me. But in this thread here...

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=129919

.... you will find two posts from Donut. In them he explains how deep you can be bombed (historically) and he posts a tip for modding out air night attacks. If 40m is anywhere near 200ft, then expect a big surprise when you read his post :smug:

[M. Sarsfield]

45 meters is 147.6 ft. That explains why I took a lot of damage at 160 ft., but does not explain how I was seen at 160 ft. when I was down there for a long time. Definitely a TM bug.

[walrusbomb]

...but does not explain how I was seen at 160 ft. when I was down there for a long time. Definitely a TM bug.
I found these shots

(look how hard it is to spot the Arizona from a helicopter!)
http://www.enoa.com/images/tour-feature-pic/big-uss-arizona-aerial.jpg
http://www.bergoiata.org/fe/Paysages-divers/U.S.S.%20Arizona%20Memorial,%20Pearl%20Harbor,%20H awaii.jpg
http://thekid_98.tripod.com/arizona.jpg

Sure, there are clearer pictures of the Arizona from a helicopter, but I'm trying to show how even at periscope depth a sub can and will dissappear from aerial view.

I've putted around Oahu, circle-island, in SH4 and at times thought the water wasnt DARK enough! Pearl Habor is definitely not dark enough in this game.

[Sailor Steve]

greetings. played SH1&2, skipped 3. LOVE SH4 to death.
WELCOME ABOARD!:sunny:

I played 1, hated 2 (but loved it online with DC), love 3 and can't play 4 until I get a memory upgrade.

45 meters is 147.6 ft. That explains why I took a lot of damage at 160 ft., but does not explain how I was seen at 160 ft. when I was down there for a long time. Definitely a TM bug.
Not a bug at all; Ducimus did that on purpose. The Pacific can be very clear. From the signal bridge of my DD we could see the bottom leaving Subic Bay, and it's around that deep. Remember, depth is measured to the keel, so you're already showing 65 feet when you're at periscope depth.

[walrusbomb]

I agree that being spotted at 160ft is bugged. It's beyond needle in a haystack at that depth.

[Sailor Steve]

Maybe at Pearl Harbor. Ever been to Subic?

And, if I'm wrong, it's an arguing point, since it was intentional. That's not the same as a bug. Bug implies the creator didn't know what he was doing.

[walrusbomb]

'fraid not. But I spent a lot of time at Pearl Harbor on seperate occasions and a shiny quarter dissappears at 2m depth.

I've been deepsea fishing north of Molokai and a 200lb Aku is practically invisible until he's on the boat.

I acknowledge the Pacific is often very very clear... but once you leave the hotspots (undersea volcanos), the Pacific gets COLD AND DARK quick. I'm going to be very upset when a Japanese plane spots me in 40m of water, 800km off Guam.

[walrusbomb]

That's not the same as a bug. Bug implies the creator didn't know what he was doing.

I wouldn't say "bug" implies the creator didn't know what he was doing. Bugs arise for numerous reasons (accretion mostly). Even the greatest software engineers on the planet get exceptions and bugs. charge it to the game.

[Sailor Steve]

As I said, all I know is what I saw, and I saw the rocks on the bottom of a channel deep enough for the biggest carriers to pass with a lot of room to spare, and we commented on the dolphins swimming back and forth under the ship.

In a similar discussion on SH3, some people pointed out that sometimes you can see forever, and it has also been noted that sometimes you can't see the bow from the conning tower. I'm a big opponent of using the periscope underwater, so I go both ways.

[walrusbomb]

agreed steve, I've been scuba diving off the big island and watched planes fly overhead, as if I wasn't underwater at all. I've also seen dolphins clearly in deep water.

I guess the real problem is the inhuman eyesight of TM pilots. Just because your sub is partially visible from great heights, doesn't mean they should automatically ID you.

as large and deep as the pacific is, I would guess there's more dark water than there is clear water.

Imma install TM tonight and play in the VERY dark waters off Tokyo.

[Seadogs]

Got to back you up here, I've spent years at sea in the Pacific and 2 meters is far short of average.

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

I can understand being detected from the air when submerged in shallow clear water. But testing my Death from above mission with TM the planes (many of them ) didn't catch sight of me at all. Maybe Ducimus' planes ain't so bad after all. They made minced meat out of surface ships though.:yep: The best thing to do I guess is to submerge, run deep and hold onto yer Rubber Ducky!:yep:

[Rockin Robbins]

You're making too much of a situation which can be handled without breaking a sweat. Cruising underwater during the daytime is a losing proposition with or without Ducimus' evil airplanes. Look for alternative behaviours and reap the benefits.

[walrusbomb]

Rockin Robbins, are you implying there's a TM airborne detection modifier based on movement?

If TM planes don't spot me as "easily" while stationary in 30m of water, I'll be a happy skipper.

It was the thought of some plane magically catching me day-napping in 30m of enemy waters that scared me.

[Rockin Robbins]

My strategy, based on "Thunder Below" by Eugene Fluckey. It works wonderfully in SH4.

A submarine is not meant to submerge. It is a surface ship that can submerge when absolutely necessary. Your success depends on searching the largest number of square miles of ocean surface in the smallest amount of time. This means cruising on the surface, using radar.

As a side benefit, the radar finds Ducimus' evil planes before they even dream about your presence. Seeing the minimum number of planes means never letting one spot you. You submerge to 200' when they are 5 miles out and stay down for 10 minutes. Go to radar depth, on the all-clear surface and hit 10 knots again. Rinse and repeat. This means you are at 10 knots on the surface, almost all the time, using your radar to search the greatest amount of ocean surface. It also means you will see many fewer aircraft because you will not be sighted. Shooting at aircraft is beneath consideration. Even if you hit it, he's called all his buddies and you're going to spend a lot of time submerged, missing big juicy targets.

At the end of the war, when nobody could find targets, Fluckey was awash with them because he had reasoned the situation out. Finding targets is just a numbers game. The more area you can search in a given amount of time, the greater your chances of locating targets and the more artificial reefs you can manufacture. The method locks out Ducimus' evil airplanes and makes them nothing more dangerous than cute, fluffy kitty cats.

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

I take offence of you referring Kitty cats as fluffy!:rotfl:

It's not such a big deal even in TM as RR said it correctly SD Radar pick them up easily enough for you to sumberge. Although I do not go deep at all maybe 100' max. I even see that Duciboy added in LBO which killed off that awful surfing sub.:up:

[walrusbomb]

excellent post, RR.

Im on some of the non-combat missions now that are taking me deep into enemy waters where I have to "sleep" by day and sneak around all night. Perhaps there's a better strategy than this for the non-combat missions, but I'm loving watching planes (external camera) fly overhead all day while I "nap" 1 KM off the shores of Japan. Anyone who's sailed the frigid Nihon seas will know just how easily one can hide a sub from a plane in such dark water.

Seems like TM will force me to rethink this strategy.

[clayp]

thanks for the replies.

I do long to play TM/RSRD some day, but TERMINATOR-style planes scare the bejeezus out of me.

I've taken helicopter tours around The Big Island, Maui, and Oahu and let me tell you from personal witness, the mighty Pacific gets very dark very quick. Good cloud-cover and 100' of Hawaiian water turns icy black.

Sometimes the sun would poke out and the entire ocean became a thousand tiny mirrors.

I stood on the Arizona Memorial and marvelled at the glassy water entombing the Arizona, only to watch the entire ship mostly dissapear as the wind, clouds, and chop changed.

meh.

I have been playing SH4 for awhile and currently running TM 1.76 and RSRD..I have yet to be attacked by any planes.....:hmm:

Thats ok self one of these days you will......:damn:

[Rockin Robbins]

I take offence of you referring Kitty cats as fluffy!:rotfl:

I meant OTHER PEOPLE's cute, fluffy kitty cats.:up:

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Oh, ok then.:lol:

[Rockin Robbins]

Oh, ok then.:lol::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

[Taurolas]

So far i've had no issues with planes in TM 1.7.6 at depths greater than 160ft mainly because i crash dive and change course, i might have a look at the stock and TM files and see just what Ducimus altered, but i would say 160ft is deffinately pushing it if that is the case.

[Wilcke]

....his fix and rationale for doing the aircraft this way....makes sense....plus the tactics are there to completely avoid them...as RR quite sensibly pointed out. It makes it all more historical and well makes you do things as they did happen...your choice of course.

In fact if you search through Ducimus' threads you can probably find the "HOW-TO" go back to stock behaviour.

[walrusbomb]

well, I tested TM planes/eyesight in "dark" water 1KM off Nihon shores. Not moving, or as I like to say, day-napping.

waiting for a plane on radar... saved my game:

A) sat at periscope depth and was spotted easily. fair enough.

reloaded savegame.

B) dropped to 90ft (~27m) and wasn't spotted at all. the water was both graphically and historically "dark."

reloaded savegame.

C) dropped to 90ft + ahead 2/3 and wasn't spotted.

D) dropped to 90ft + ahead 2/3 + 90 degrees to port... WHOA, need more testing because the moment I turned the boat I was spotted!


...

TM pilot eyesight is either modified by path deviation AND depth, or strictly depth with the deviation being pure coincidence. I was very pleased with TM Planes after limited testing. It's good to know you "might" be spotted in 90ft of water. That is all I wanted.

will test more tonight.