SH4 - what engine improvements? (no flames!)

[MarkShot]

I am playing AOD, SHCE, and SH3/GWX at the moment. I have SH4, but have not bothered installing it.

I would like to ask what game engine (simulation portion of the game) improvements does SH4 offer over SH3? For example, someone told me in another thread that SH4 provides an in game implementation of thermal layers. This is the type of stuff I am asking for.

I am asking for two reasons. First, I am in the systems business and loves computers, games, and interfaces. I've beta tested well known games and at the moment am even a part owner of a small independent game company. So, game engines fascinate me. Second, of course, I like to play subsims and I am trying to decide if I should make room in my life for yet a fourth WWII subsim. (I already own and play SC/DW and various versions of Harpoon.)

PLEASE, no flames and personal attacks on those who play SH3 and/or make mods for it. My question is a technical question and I want technical answers.

Thank you.

PS1: Since I want technical answers and not "Which game do you like better?", I have skipped searching.

PS2: Mods, if the subject is too difficult for the forum to handle, then please delete the thread. I do not want to be the source of trouble.

[Rockin Robbins]

A major problem that I had with SH3 is that after weeks of play the game would suddenly forget the savegame file and not be able to find it. Inquiries revealed that you could not save the game if any ship appeared on any sensor, if you were not surfaced, if you were within a certain distance from land, if you were wearing any item of blue clothing or saving on any day of the week containing a "y." OK, the last two I made up.;) The SH4 engine has totally solved those problems and all my saves over an 8-month period in all kinds of random conditions have been fine.

I'm not sure if that is what you are after, but you have to admit that satisfaction in the game is very dependent on the ability to play a career successfully.

Crew management has also been changed with watch changes automatic and each compartment containing three watches. You can still move crew members among available slots.

[AVGWarhawk]

Some how and some way they have been able to optimize loading times. Even with a bunch of mods loading with it.

[ReallyDedPoet]

For example, someone told me in another thread that SH4 provides an in game implementation of thermal layers.


A thread on the subject :roll:, there may be something in there for you :yep:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=126375&highlight=thermal+layers


RDP

[GlobalExplorer]

I would like to hear more opinions because I am also thinking about making the switch (once my new pc is running).

[Linavitch]

I am also thinking about making the switch

"SH4 gen" here we come:rock:

Seriously, although I don't know much about programming, the Sh4 engine does exactly what it says on the tin. Lets you cruise around the pacific blowing sh!t up. I guess the major gameplay differences are the historical nature of the war. ie you're on the winning side this time.

The major new game plusses for me are:-

Increased TC range (it's a big bloody ocean)
Varied missions plus the chance to recieve new orders on patrol
Variable AI ship to ship (don't think SH3 had this, may be wrong)
No save game bugs and no "loading this save will delete all later saves"
The sheer beauty of the thing

In the early days lots of people complained of CTD's (although I have yet to experience one in nearly 12 months of play) but from reading other posts most of these seem to have been cured by patches and Mods.

Stock SH4 (and stock SH3) are a fairly shallow (no pun intended) experience. However, once the game is modded up to your taste, the depth and scope of the game are at least equal or greater than SH3/GWX.

I guess the hardest part is the initial change. You'll probably miss the clickable officers and such like but once the new system is mastered it is equally intuitive.

[Fincuan]

You'll probably miss the clickable officers and such like but once the new system is mastered it is equally intuitive.

The newest Trigger Maru features these :up:

[Linavitch]

The newest Trigger Maru features these :up:

Sort of. Clicking the helmsman in SH4 takes you straight to the nav map. In SH3 it brings up several options of reports, plot course etc.

[GlobalExplorer]

It's only the hardware that held me back for almost a year. SHIV did simply run like **** on my system, and he graphics OOB looked pretty crappy when compared to SHIII. Hell at that time AA wasnt even enabled.

Looking at all those great screenshots now and with a really fast computer in the planning stage, it's probably time to give the game a second chance.

How does the AI fare? Is the game difficult enough?

What about the weather? Does it make more sense than in SHIII (i.e. not a thunderstorm after 2 days on every patrol).

[AVGWarhawk]

How does the AI fare? Is the game difficult enough?

What about the weather? Does it make more sense than in SHIII (i.e. not a thunderstorm after 2 days on every patrol).

I thought AI out of the box was not bad really. It has a nice mix of rookie to really nasty. You never know what you are going to get. TM and RFB mods have made them even better.

Weather is great and you can watch it change if you want. No more 3 months of rain and fog. It is quite dynamic. Download ROW and sha'zam beautiful screenshots. :up:

[Rockin Robbins]

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Cruise%2014%20Formosa%20again/SH4Img2008-01-12_162543_238.jpg
One down, three to go. You can see the TDC setup. The water is warmer than it was before. Make the move!

Errr.... sorry, forgot you said no flames!:rotfl:

[MarkShot]

I just got bitten by the "save/reload" bug. Pretty irritating knowing how easy this is to program right!

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=129875

[AVGWarhawk]

What flames????


http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/SH4Img2008-01-22_203227_546.jpg

[AVGWarhawk]

I'm going to flame you again :D http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/SH4Img2008-01-19_201647_531.jpg

[AVGWarhawk]

And these poor unfortunate souls:

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/SH4Img3-10-2007_201054_125.jpg

[AVGWarhawk]

To much flaming here. I just might lock this thread:rotfl:

[Rockin Robbins]

I just got bitten by the "save/reload" bug. Pretty irritating knowing how easy this is to program right!

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=129875
Because like I said, I've done hundreds of saves without regard for situation, including during an approach, being depth charged, surfaced, submerged, whatever and no problems. I have read of a very few problems but I consider the game stabile and predictable in that regard.

You agree with me that save/reload bugs are compeletely inexcusable! That's a first. But since it was the final straw that pushed me into SH4, I'm grateful. SH4 has never let me down.

[Rockin Robbins]

I just got bitten by the "save/reload" bug. Pretty irritating knowing how easy this is to program right!

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=129875 Because like I said, I've done hundreds of saves without regard for situation, including during an approach, being depth charged, surfaced, submerged, whatever and no problems. I have read of a very few problems but I consider the game reliable in that regard.

You agree with me that save/reload bugs are compeletely inexcusable! That's a first. (I got mostly snide "of course you can't save the game when..." comments when I posted in the SH3 forum) But since it was the final straw that pushed me into SH4, I'm grateful. SH4 has never let me down. I consider SH3 broken in spite of all its patches, none of which has touched that fatal problem.

[RickC Sniper]

@Markshot

As stated, yes sh4 has working thermals. SH3 with GWX is a great game. SH4 out of box patched to 1.4 is a very good game. Some, however, just prefer the theatre of the Atlantic. Much of this is just choice or preference.

SH4 modded with the current mods is a beauty. Bigger boats, longer patrols, bigger torpedo loadouts than a uboat, a new, very well made American TDC to learn if you play manual TDC. Adequate enemy AI in stock, Very challenging when modded. (TM supermod is highly recommended for an experienced captain like you)

I like subsims. I cannot imagine someone who likes subsims not giving SH4 a test run. You can always uninstall it but I'll bet a dollar against a doughnut that you won't.

[kylesplanet]

I'm going to flame you again :D http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/SH4Img2008-01-19_201647_531.jpg

AVG the colors in that shot are unreal!!:up: Leo's work keeps on giving.

Sorry to be off topic, that just a terrific shot which is now my wallpaper on my notebook.:yep:

[AVGWarhawk]

@kyle

This was a test scene.dat that kriller2 worked on after Dave passed. The rest of it is Dave's creation. It is the same one you can get on the ROW thread if you do not have it already. This is also with PPF turned on....no grainy effect.

[kiwi_2005]

SH4 is the best looking game to ever come out. Thats what got me hooked first, its a piece of artwork. Its the type of game your girlfriend/wife will even admire for its looks! :)

Anyways i play both SH3/GWX/OLC. SH4 TM/RSRDC

Tis better to have the whole cake than just half :D

[MarkShot]

First, what is OLC? I am playing GWX2 with JSGME, SH3 Commander, SH3 Gen, and SH3 Patrol. I know what is WAC and NYGM. OLC?

Second, let's assume that I am comfortable with GWX2 and comptently approach and attack convoy and evade escorts, then is getting started with SH4 fairly straight forward? I mean I had a big learning curve with GWX and differences from earlier games, but I understand that SH3/SH4 are basically the same engine when it comes to game play (sensor, AI behavior, ship and damage modeling). So, will SH4 be something I can just jump right into after getting the game and mods installed or will I have weeks of learning curves to climb?

Thanks.

[MarkShot]

Did the latest version of SH4 1.4 get rid of the DVD in the drive requirements?

Not a big one, but just a little convenience.

Thanks.

[AVGWarhawk]

Did the latest version of SH4 1.4 get rid of the DVD in the drive requirements?

Not a big one, but just a little convenience.

Thanks.

Yes, no dvd in drive to run:up:

[AVGWarhawk]

Second, let's assume that I am comfortable with GWX2 and comptently approach and attack convoy and evade escorts, then is getting started with SH4 fairly straight forward? I mean I had a big learning curve with GWX and differences from earlier games, but I understand that SH3/SH4 are basically the same engine when it comes to game play (sensor, AI behavior, ship and damage modeling). So, will SH4 be something I can just jump right into after getting the game and mods installed or will I have weeks of learning curves to climb?

Your biggest learning curve will be operating the TDC. You do not have officer assist for torpedo solutions. Either it is all done for you or you do it all yourself. No inbetween. Everything else is basically the same as SH3.

[cmdrk]

Maybe someone can confirm this, but isn't shipping traffic handled differently. Wasn't SH3 more random while SH4 generates shipping at one port and send them to another port?

Also the TM mod has the keyboard mappings closer to SH3 - for easier transitions.

[kiwi_2005]

First, what is OLC? I am playing GWX2 with JSGME, SH3 Commander, SH3 Gen, and SH3 Patrol. I know what is WAC and NYGM. OLC?


OLC GUI 1.2.0 in my opinon is the best mod for manual targetting players to come out for SH3. It can be loaded with just the stock game or with GWX 2. Before i came across this mod i use to play with autotargetting on, but OLC changed all of that. The SH3 interface is change which i reckon is much better, gone is the bottom taskbar with a more sleek better looking one & the scopes are designed with manual targetting in mind in fact you can't really play the game as auto-targetting once you install this mod.

Latest version is 1.2.0

Go here to read more about it and see pics of the mod.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=124639

[Wilcke]

Maybe someone can confirm this, but isn't shipping traffic handled differently. Wasn't SH3 more random while SH4 generates shipping at one port and send them to another port?

Also the TM mod has the keyboard mappings closer to SH3 - for easier transitions.

Its been a bit but stock Sh4 provides an inordinate(unrealistic) amount of merchant traffic. Hence the mod RSRD by Lurker, which re-writes the campaign layers and provides realistic and historical shipping, convoys, task forces...etc...! Kudo's to Lurker who is now in Phase III of development work on this essential MOD.

RSRD the Campaign http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=123467

Truly, the two SH4 forum areas are chock full of SH4 knowledge and mod reviews. Anyone anticipating playing the sim is coming in at a great time as so much work has been done and accomplished by the wonderful modders. Plus, continued support from the Dev Team to get us to 1.4!:sunny:

Enjoy!

[MarkShot]

That's interesting.

One of my main complaints about SH1 (I have SHCE) compared to AOD was the flood of enemy shipping in the game. However, I was able to deal with it without any mods. I simply stopped looking at the map and contact reports. I set a patrol up of waypoints and then play the game from the control room at high TC. Once I get an actual contact (viz, radar, or sonar), then I will prosecute it using the map at a fairly high zoom factor. Playing like that totally negate the unrealistic amount of enemy shipping. It changed the whole game for me.

[MarkShot]

Okay, I see the OLC thing. It's everything you need in one place.

For the moment, I am still doing a hybrid assisted approach. So, I don't need it.

That's too bad about SH4. I don't think I want to do manual TDC, but I don't like point and shoot either. Oh, well ...

[AVGWarhawk]

That's too bad about SH4. I don't think I want to do manual TDC, but I don't like point and shoot either. Oh, well ...

Something like this would prevent you from playing a game? It would seem natural to me that a player would want to learn the TDC. It is like not wanting to pull the trigger in a dogfight sim game.

[Rockin Robbins]

Okay, I see the OLC thing. It's everything you need in one place.

For the moment, I am still doing a hybrid assisted approach. So, I don't need it.

That's too bad about SH4. I don't think I want to do manual TDC, but I don't like point and shoot either. Oh, well ...

Once upon a time I was afraid of manual targeting as well. However, it is nowhere near as difficult as it seems and is so much an indispensible part of the experience that I can't imagine playing without it now. The turning point was when I watched WernerSobe's tutorial videos, found at WASSAT (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=118923), the WernerSobe Advanced School of Submarine Attack Tactics. If his links aren't working use mine at MyLinks (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=677410&postcount=82). And if you're so inclined you can find my heretical targeting method, the Dick O'Kane targeting technique (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=652326&postcount=67). As a U-Boat captain, you'll recognize many of the elements of that one!

But the most fun you can have with an American submarine is using WernerSobe's sonar only attack procedure. The very first time you plow three torpedoes into the side of sa target you never saw your fear of manual targeting will be a thing of the past, guaranteed!:up:

Trust me, if you're not using manual targeting, you're missing half of the fun of Silent Hunter. When I go back to SH3 for my next cruise, I'm going to learn manual targeting over there.

[MarkShot]

Nah, I am still going to check it out, but I like the balance I have now with SH3 and the WE. Then, I will probably start with point and shoot. If need be, I will do some house rules like a table requiring X seconds of observation under certain weather and distance conditions before shooting.

Why don't I do manual TDC, since real men do it? Well, I mainly like conning the boat. So, I don't like crew management either or working the stations. I decide where the boat goes, when and what it will attack, how the attack will be done, and how the boat will disengage. I don't really care very much about AOB and whether Fritz is happy with his promotion or if Helga just sent him a "Dear Fritz Letter". :)

[MarkShot]

I have watched his stuff and it is good.

I just like running the boat. I may do TDC one day, but I am not afraid of it. I also have not interest in flooding tanks, trimming the boat, manually controling the planes, compressing air for the flasks, putting a charge on the battery, ...

I have taken time to read the fleet boat manual which was declassified to understand the overview of all the various systems. Fascinating stuff. It was no accident that they required the crews which they did. Our sims are vast over simplifications of operations. Even taking a dump on a fleet boat involved 10 steps where at home there is but one.

[AVGWarhawk]

Admittedly, I liked the weapons officer assist in SH3. I thought it was a nice feature.

[MarkShot]

If you really want to appreciate these amazing machines, this is a good place to start your education:

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/index.htm

[Rockin Robbins]

Nah, I am still going to check it out, but I like the balance I have now with SH3 and the WE. Then, I will probably start with point and shoot. If need be, I will do some house rules like a table requiring X seconds of observation under certain weather and distance conditions before shooting.

Why don't I do manual TDC, since real men do it? Well, I mainly like conning the boat. So, I don't like crew management either or working the stations. I decide where the boat goes, when and what it will attack, how the attack will be done, and how the boat will disengage. I don't really care very much about AOB and whether Fritz is happy with his promotion or if Helga just sent him a "Dear Fritz Letter". :)
They you'll LOVE the crew management in SH4, which dispenses with the tedious micromanagement of SH3. Normally I recommend that everyone start with manual targeting while they learn their boat handling skills. The reason I didn't do that for you is that you've played with the best ASW, so boat handling will be pretty easy for you. Since I never played Silent Hunter 1 or 2 I'm looking forward to what you say when you give SH4 a chance.

I've always been a frustrated numbers wizard and I love to take systems apart and put em together again a little different. Manual targeting is a fascinating puzzle for me and a major part of my enjoyment of SH4. That makes me plenty strange.:88) But it beats being an axe murderer.

[MarkShot]

My solution to SH3 crew management was two fold:

(1) SH3 Commander and turn off the fatigue model.

(2) Manually copy a trained crew record into my save game that pretty much gives my crew full skills.

What does this do for me? I can simply dive and surface the boat quickly while playing to do a sound check and because there are enough skills present, there is not need to shuffle people around during the simply and common place evolution that happen so frequently. The only time I actually start positioning crew is when going to battle stations. I make sure that all stations are properly staffed along with damage control.

The overall best AI goes to AOD. Why?

(1) Escorts run pattern and hunt all the time (always pinging and listening passive). Getting through a screen submerged is really tough. Although an early war night attack in heavy fog is not too hard.

(2) Getting away from escorts if they find you is really hard. They work together and they primarily make sure that you stay encircled. The most important element in ASW after achieving a mission kill (neutralizing the sub's offensive capability) is making sure that it cannot escape. This is more important the rushed and aggressive attacks. Once you have reached five escorts on the spot, in theory is should be impossible for the sub to escape and in AOD it often is. In other games due to lack of coordination, opportunities can be created or will simply happen that offer an escape window.

---

SH3/GWX has this limitation that the hunt for you is called off if no one has contact after 30 minutes have passed. Needless to say, this makes life for the sub much easier than it should be. However, this prevents escorts from being stripped away from convoys and never making it back. How is this handled in SH4?

Also, how are SH4 convoys? I understood that the Japanese convoys were not the huge things seen in the Atlantic.

[AVGWarhawk]

If you really want to appreciate these amazing machines, this is a good place to start your education:

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/index.htm


That is a great book!!! My learning index starts here:

http://www.usstorsk.org/

:up:

[MarkShot]

I have been to Baltimore and toured the Torsk. If I recall, you are on the renovation crew?

[AVGWarhawk]

I have been to Baltimore and toured the Torsk. If I recall, you are on the renovation crew?

Yes I do restore her. Your PM box is full.....at least is says it is.

[MarkShot]

I just swept it clean. Sorry.

[AVGWarhawk]

Markshot,

The European Airwar, what game does that apply to?

[aurora-7]

God, I loved 'European Air War'! It was my favorite combat flight sim. I loved flying Hurricanes in BOB. When I got a new system and graphics card, the game wouldn't run anymore. :cry:

[MarkShot]

Does SH4 have some form of video replay facility?

I have always felt uncomfortable having the event window and external views enabled in SH3/GWX. I would much prefered having no external view, but being able to watch full 3D replays of the action after an event.

Thanks.

[AVGWarhawk]

Yes, you can save replay of a particular patrol when you go to save you current patrol.

[MarkShot]

So, to watch the patrol what do you do?

You get like a VCR style interface? How good is it?

If I turn off the event window and external views can I still save and watch the replay later?

Thanks.

[kiwi_2005]

Does SH4 have some form of video replay facility?

I have always felt uncomfortable having the event window and external views enabled in SH3/GWX. I would much prefered having no external view, but being able to watch full 3D replays of the action after an event.

Thanks.

The TM mod or might of been RSRDC mod as i have both running, but when in external view on you cannot use the (.) key to move to each ship to take a look. So having external view on is like me to admire the beauty of the sub every 5 seconds :) You can though use the arrow keys to fly round but thats easily ignored.

[AVGWarhawk]

So, to watch the patrol what do you do?

You get like a VCR style interface? How good is it?

If I turn off the event window and external views can I still save and watch the replay later?

Thanks.

It looks like window media player. Open the game and load replay. It is all external even if you had external turned off during play. What is neat, along the bottom were its shows the movie progress you wll see colored lines, these indicate were the action was. Therefore, you do not have to search around for the action, just fast forward to that colored spot.

[Sailor Steve]

Markshot,

The European Airwar, what game does that apply to?
EAW was the name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Air_War

[AVGWarhawk]

Markshot,

The European Airwar, what game does that apply to? EAW was the name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Air_War

Good Lord, Microprose.....I have one remaining game from them and it is Mechwarrior 3:D

[jazman]

I have watched his stuff and it is good.

I just like running the boat. I may do TDC one day, but I am not afraid of it. I also have not interest in flooding tanks, trimming the boat, manually controling the planes, compressing air for the flasks, putting a charge on the battery, ...


How about splicing the main brace after a sinking?

[CaptainHaplo]

Markshot - one thing not mentioned in engine improvements is the increase in area that is drawn. I don't recall what the distance was in sh3 - but stock sh4 up to1.3 was 8nm - everything got kind of tight once you get things into that kind of space. With 1.4 - the engine was heavliy modified - now the visual "bubble" is 20nm - a substantial increase to say the least.

It really adds a lot to the experience when your sighting ships far enough out to have a realistic chance of moving to intercept - simply because you (as is historically accurate) saw smoke.

It seems like a small thing - but that one change really made SH4 a MUCH better simulation.

[MarkShot]

Yep, I would imagine that could make a difference, since in SH3 if the seas are not heavy, it is basically if you can see them, then they can see you.

Sometimes I feel they spot you too easy given the sub's very low profile and the small size of the conning tower. (However, in something I was reading recently [declassified German manual] a sub could always be spotted if it has the bad luck of being lift up by a swell.)

SHCE (SH1) implemented the USN "high periscope techique" allowing greater viewing area and spotting. Thus, in SHCE you often spot distant contacts in a hull down situation. Does SH4 provide for the high periscope? That same German document advises only to approach in range of a convoy you are tracking such that you can see the masts, but not the hulls. [Interestingly the Germans cautioned against periscope use when surfaced saying that it made the sub much too easy to spot.]

Thanks.

[MarkShot]

If I have time, I'll try installing SH4 and getting it all modded up this weekend.

[Rockin Robbins]

If I have time, I'll try installing SH4 and getting it all modded up this weekend.

But that doesn't mean you'll like SH3 any less!:up:

[MarkShot]

At this very minute, I am playing SHCE in the Yellow Sea and will soon be playing AOD again.

I find having all these different flavors of subsims very refreshing. They all play differently and have different strengths and weaknesses.

So, I intend to continue on with SH3/GWX2. Although I have NYGM and WAC installed, I don't know if I will endeavor to try them as well.

---

RR,

Could you look at my request for help thread in the Mods forums and give me some tips? Thanks!

[CaptainHaplo]

Regarding the High Periscope - it is implemented... sorta. It works like this - your crew - even green - have the eyes of eagles. They will spot a ship usually well before you ever can. However, the game does model height of the sensors (which is why the bloody planes can see so blasted far!!!) - so the higher your periscope, the farther YOU as the player can see. However, due to "high scope" mechanics, its done when your on the surface, and you still wont see farther than your crew on the tower will anyway....

[MarkShot]

I would like to reopen this thread. I have SH4/TM and SH4/RFB installed, but I have not played them much. I've mainly been playing SH3/GWX2. However, I am rapidly becomming dissappointed, since I find the escort AI to be really weak. I get the impression that the devs did not endeavor to program much coordinated logic into the escorts and mainly just gave them very simple motion rules. Besides simple motion rules, they were given variable sensors and other objects where give variable detection profiles. Beyond that, escorts either bump into your sub or they don't. They don't know hot to screen. They don't know how to search. They do know how to close a detection and place weapons on it.

My question: Is the escort AI in SH4 any better than SH3 or is the same gorgeous graphics powered by no more AI than needed to play tic-tac-toe? Thanks.

I am trying to determine if after all these weeks if I decide to write off SH3, if I should not even waste time with SH4 and just go back to AOD and SHCE. As I want a sub game with AI that challenges me as opposed to once I know the basic tricks, it is a breeze. No wonder why people are so eager to play 100% real/manual TDC. It would seem only by overwhelming oneself with work load and math can challenge be had.


Well, I have been playing and practicing 1943. Some initial impressions:

(1) Attacking and getting into the convoy doesn't seem any harder than in earlier years using the same techniques. The key is knowing the convoy's track and understanding the formation. Creeping in and coming about and the choosing the right time to shoot.

(2) I have a saved game where they have me cornered. I did a little practice with it and I was sunk. I need to spend more time with it and see if I can break contact. I am not sure if it is possible.

(3) After the attack, disengaging hasn't proved very hard. The important thing is to continue the same stealth tactics that got you in initially. Which is 1-3kts and start heading deep.

Very strange about SH3.

In AOD and SHCE, when a merchant goes boom, the escorts come racing to the likely location of a submarine. Of course, if you have set up the situation well, you are not there when they arrive. But the important thing is they come generally as fast as they can. Thus, they don't leave time much time to depart the area.

In SH3, I find the escorts seem to come over very casually despite their great speed potential. Thus, if you shoot a good distance away from any escorts, you stand a good chance of creeping away, since the escorts come over very casually to investigate the situation. Now, you may say that if the escorts raced over, they would not be able to detect you. True. But they need to be looking in the right spot first. One the key rules of ASW warfare when you got a sub is to box it in quickly before the AOU (area of uncertainty) has time to expand and grow.

Thus, given where the merchants were hit; some triangulation and the max speed of the sub ... the escorts should be able to close on a likely area fairly fast and commence the search. They do not. They allow the sub 2X to 3X more time than the minimum available to displace. At the same time, this translates into the potential area where the sub may be of an exponential increase in the area necessary to search.

In summary, escort logic is weak on the screen and on the hunt:

(1) The screen is too rigid of a formation that fails to cover much of the convoy's perimeter. Worse yet, the lead elements search a very narrow footprint.

(2) When hunting a sub, escorts fail to use their great speed to maximum advantage. When they have detected a sub and lost it, they tend to keep blowing holes in the same location rather than expanding the search area in a logical fashion and/or boxing the sub in.

(3) So far, it seems the one thing that the escorts do well is prosecute a contact which they continue to hold on their sensors.

[Wilcke]

Mark,

Couple of things about SH4, is that to have any kind of challenge you will need to run TM and/or RFB. I do not think you will find the surface ASW up to a challenge. I find they are easily defeated, and even sunk as they tend to do stupid things like trolling in the rear quarter where they can be torpedoed.

One of the issues that SH4 has is that the submarines are just overly armored and have too many hit points. They can take a ton of punishment and just shrug it off. Currently this has been addressed in TM and the subs are more fragile. RFB also, same thing. In RFB this is going to be addressed further.

Currently what I am running if the tincan does a run on you and you are at peri depth you are going to get hurt; and you are out of the game and going deep hopefully and getting down to repairs. So you just blew it big time.

Now this is just me playing stupid, making noise, being a mediocre skipper.

You know give it a whirl, and don't forget that Ducimus released TMO, over at UBI. Give that a whirl, and RFB is being re-worked. It won't take you long to shake them both out.

Sorry long winded. I see your point, I am a pure historical type also, in this genre why not, we can save games, restart careers, or just replay certain battles, it is what makes it enjoyable for me, hopefully in the future more emphasis can be given to the AI and impart better capabilities into their ASW skills.

Who knows with S3d editor, maybe this will be tackled later on this year. You never know. Some day I will have to try those sims, AOD and the other. They run in WinXP? Or do you have to use a "wrapper".

Happy Hunting!

[MarkShot]

I run the old DOS AOD and SHCE with DOSBOX (DOS emulator). They run very nicely.

There is a Windows version called COAD, but it is much easier to get the DOS version running.

These old game for the most part have much stronger AI than the SH3/4 series.

I think this is my greatest dissappointment is the weak AI. You can tweak files to adjust sensors and platform profiles all you want, but it is quite likely that for pure ASW logic, there were significantly more lines of code (logic) in these older games.

Although I do agree that high quality graphics and sound introduces an immersion factor itself, gameplay still needs to be there. I think these games have a critical weakness in what is the very heart of a WWII subsim that is beyond the ability of modders to correct. I saw Ducimus said the other day that in any year in any mod, he can easily take two ships out of a convoy, because he knows how. I have no doubt about this. I see myself approaching this point.

Now, the only thing that really challenges me is breaking contact once detected (of course, avoiding that may not be so hard). However, I suspect that I will work it out.

All I can say is that it saddens me. I had wanted more from these new games than a Hollywood Blockbuster. I probably still play them, but nothing will unseat AOD for raw challenge, game play, and excitement where it really counts.

That is not to say AOD and SHCE didn't have their problems. But they were playable classics with their final patches without mods. For any serious player, SH3/SH4 probably would not be worth more than 3-4 months play without the very extensive work of modders.

It also saddens me that for many playing these games, they will never know just how intense and thrilling the search, the hunt, and the escape can be as they rely on SH3/4 as benchmark of game play.

[Wilcke]

I appreciate your candor in these topics. I only came into this community about a year ago with SH3 and then SH4, so my knowledge base is limited. I have tried to read all I can on ASW in WWII; still there are a lot of missing pieces. Well its good to know that with SH3 and SH4 we still do not have the "best", as in ASW/AI. Which is not a "dig", maybe there is more room for modding.

Although, I have seen posts from some Modders that feel that aside from some tweaking there is not much that can be done with SH4 at this point. This I hope is just a momentary obstacles and that the ASW can be further enhanced at some point.

Anyhow, well I think that I will have to try out AOD one of these days!

Good day!