A moment's silence for the passing of an old soldier please

[Knipper]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7210346.stm

RIP Erich Kaestner

[Skybird]

That went almost unnoted in Germany. Having intentionally launched one world war and having played a decciding role in getting another one laucnhed, and having lost both wars whose scars still can be seen in our landscape and cities, any celebrating of military things and war-related events has not formed a tradition here after 1945. It's internal celebrations the Bundeswehr use to hold almost hidden, and without too much public and media attention, which has both pros and contras.

And since war is grim horror, death and destruction, I think that hesitation to celebrate war-related opportunities is a very respectable basic attitude. Military parades in other nations are watched with sceptic eyes in Germany, and with disgust. The parade of paper-tanks and planes after the Kowait war 1991 even caused quite some fury and strong antipathy over here, and comments of that way of celebrating being tasteless. It reminded many of us of the street parades we do at Karneval and Fasching over here, with those vans of funny paper figures showing carricatures and ironic political scenes.

We have war rememberance days, though. They are reserved for remembering the dead, and the horror that took place, serving as a warning. At least that is the intention. In reality the official acts are not much wanted, and are more consiodered to be an unloved public duty for office-holders. The population for the most does not much care.

[mrbeast]

Won't be long till that chapter of history is beyond living memory.

[Knipper]

You're right mrbeast, but until people stop using words like 'glorious' and 'dead' in the same sentence, it will be raked over again and again. Like Skybird implies, what's there to celebrate about horror and destruction? In the words of the song, "War - what is it good for? absolutely nothing."

[Kapitan_Phillips]

"War - what is it good for? absolutely nothing."


Apart from bringing countrymen together and remembering and thanking those who fought and died for their country :)

RIP, Herr Kaestner

[Biggles]

It's tragic that there is almost noone left to tell the story of The Great War. In another 50 years, it will be tha same with World War II....

[Skybird]

"War - what is it good for? absolutely nothing."


Apart from bringing countrymen together and remembering and thanking those who fought and died for their country :)

RIP, Herr Kaestner
You can fight and die for your contry - and still be on the wrong side. Wehrmacht soldiers also fought for their country, and most of them were no Nazis. Just imagine they would have not obeyed but stood up against Hitler. A single man's effort probably would have seen him getting courtmartialed, like Stauffenberg. On the other hand - what if these single men - would have been seen in numbers that made them the majority? The fall of an evil regime.

What if the majority of GIs in the 60s and 70s would have rebelled against the political leadership sending them to Vietnam? The sudden end of an unneeded and useless war.

You can find according examples for the military history of EVERY major nation.

[joea]

I see your point Skybird, but I think the thing to remember is this is significant as it marks the passing of WWI from living memory. In a large sense it already has as all we have left are a handful of vets (literally) who were very young when they took part (in Mr. Kaestner's case only 4 months for a young man of 18). They know what they saw, children and infants won't have any real memories at all. All those who knew more, and made the decisions are already gone...and in a decade or two no one, even those born during the war will be gone.

Sic transit gloria mundi

...as will the horrors which can only be imagined.

[sunvalleyslim]

The loyalty to God and Country is instilled by ancestors.....who usually had fought in some bygone war......We are not that far away from our caveman days and mentality. Maybe some day things will change.......But the need for power and greed by some will perpetuate the need for violence and death of others...........

[Knipper]

Well said skybird. The Nazi's didn't have a monopoly on fascism, you just have to look at the history of the British over the last 200 years or so to realise that. (India, South Africa, Ireland etc). My take on it is that post-Versailles, the offer of a job and food in your belly must have seemed a very attractive proposition to your average German between the wars, as did the prospect of regaining some sort of national self-respect. Later on, the threat of violence and/or ostracisation in return for non-compliance (whether you were German or not) must have helped the process of consolidating the grip of the 3rd Reich no end, and also had the effect of turning things sour for many people. If you've seen the BBC series 'World at War', you'll be familiar with interviews conducted with ordinary German folk who are now long gone, but were the among the last German voices to speak publicly from first-hand experience. For me, one of the more telling interviews is with a guy who was part of the German Resistance. He made the point that he, and many others like him, were put in a difficult positon whereby simply disagreeing with the policies of the 3rd Reich made him feel unpatriotic. He loved Germany and believed it should take its rightful place in the world. However, when he attended the rallies he observed that he would have loved to have been able to share the enthusiasm and fervour of the participants, but felt that there was something about it that was fundamentally wrong. My guess is that a lot of people felt this way but were bullied into conformity. The fact is, if the ruling regime has enough power, whatever political colour it may be, it is difficult to to oppose. I know there's no real comparison, but I felt a hint of this myself during the Thatcher years.

On a lighter note, a couple of years ago, I was in an English supermarket with Anneka, a friend of mine from Bremen. It was the morning of November 11th and over the tannoy they announced that there would be a minute's silence at 11am to remember the war dead. 11am came around and everyone stopped what they were doing and stood still. She asked me if the one minute of respect was for dead German soldiers too. I told her it wasn't, so she said, 'That's ok then,' and carried on shopping. I thought that was really cool :up:

[Knipper]

Can't disagree with you at all sunvalley. You got it in one.

[Skybird]

. She asked me if the one minute of respect was for dead German soldiers too. I told her it wasn't, so she said, 'That's ok then,' and carried on shopping. I thought that was really cool :up:

Oh! :lol: Straight girl, eh? Can't argue with that behavior. The dead don't care anyway.

[Knipper]

Can't disagree with you either Kpt Phillips. I've been to a lot of reunions with my dad (now sadly gone). That sense of unity was palpable. Fighting together for a common cause is something few of us will experience, hopefully. My sense of gratitude to them all overwhelms me sometimes, but I can't help but feel for those on the other side who believed they were in a similar position, or at least had to do it to survive. Know what I mean?

[Biggles]

Dear God! Just remembered! This year it's 90 years since the end of the bloody war isn't it?

[Knipper]

:D @ skybird.

[Knipper]

Darned right Biggles, (love the name :D ) That one seems to have slipped by the media eh? Maybe they're waiting for the century before doing the front page splashes.

[Sailor Steve]

***

[Biggles]

Darned right Biggles, (love the name :D ) That one seems to have slipped by the media eh? Maybe they're waiting for the century before doing the front page splashes.

Hm, they'll bring it on for November 11th, that's my guess.

And thank you, I consider myself proud of being the SubSim forums only true Biggles!:lol:

[mookiemookie]

"War - what is it good for? absolutely nothing."

Oh I don't know, fighting tyranny, oppression, fascism, Naziism....

Just because war isn't a pretty thing doesn't mean that there isn't anything noble in it.

[Stealth Hunter]

Lang lebe der Kaiser und Deutschland! Lang lebe Herr Kaestner!

[Skybird]

Lang lebe der Kaiser und Deutschland! Lang lebe Herr Kaestner!
We have no Kaiser anymore.

No, we have one: Franz Beckenbauer, usually referred to as "Kaiser Franz". :)

[Knipper]

Darned right Biggles, (love the name :D ) That one seems to have slipped by the media eh? Maybe they're waiting for the century before doing the front page splashes.

Hm, they'll bring it on for November 11th, that's my guess.

And thank you, I consider myself proud of being the SubSim forums only true Biggles!:lol:

Guess you're right Biggles. Watch out 11/11. Incidentally, i don't remember W.E. Johns writing a book called 'Biggles in the KriegsMarine'. Maybe you should get busy :rotfl:

@mookie, I do think there is something noble about fighting tyranny and opression, it's just that here in the UK, we tend to bang on about it a lot. I guess I'm uncomfortable with some of the accomanying attitudes. I'm embarrassed by the way some football fans taunt germans with chants about Hitler and that sort of thing. Yes we should remember the dead and be grateful for their sacrifice but there's just something about the way it is done in this country that makes me feel uncomfortable somehow.

[bookworm_020]

It's strange to see this debated. In Australia about 20 years ago, numbers of people attending ANZAC marches were dropping, and many were saying that it would be wound up in the near future due to lack of public intrest. Then on the 75th aniversary of the Gallipoli campain, they flew 20 vets back for the dawn service. Since then crowd numbers have been increasing.

The Day is not a celebration of war, it's a day of rememberance, and a reminder of how bad war can be. The fact that the day doesn't celebrate a military victory helps as well.