Anybody in Europe concerned?

[Sea Demon]

I'm wondering if any of our European members here are concerned about Russia's missile exercises off your coasts. Think it's a little provacative? Maybe even a little destabilizing? Is this a shot across America's bow, Europe's, or the entire NATO as a whole?

I myself don't believe it's directly threatening to us. And I wasn't overly impressed with the display. But I'm surprised Europe has been so quiet about it.

[malkuth74]

They are operating in Internation waters. Nothing to much of a big deal. They had 2 bombers up, and were being tracked by Two Nato Countries own Fighter Jets. harldy a real show of force.

And we all do it too. They have not impressed many yet. In fact it was probably nice to see the BlackJack up for once, and i'm sure the fighter pilots enjoyed the peak at those bombers.

[Dowly]

Guys, the cold war is over... really.. it is.:yep:

[Tchocky]

I'm stockpiling bananas, all we're gonna want after the radiation turns us into monkeys

[U49]

I'm wondering if any of our European members here are concerned about Russia's missile exercises off your coasts. Think it's a little provacative? Maybe even a little destabilizing? Is this a shot across America's bow, Europe's, or the entire NATO as a whole?

I myself don't believe it's directly threatening to us. And I wasn't overly impressed with the display. But I'm surprised Europe has been so quiet about it.

Concerned? Yes!
Thinking about it? Yes ... not really to be taken serious, just to say "we are there" ....
Ok, I was born in the cold war . On this scale taht little F%&/'ing stuff is childs-play,... let Putin play..

I'm more afraid about that nobody else knows about it and everybody look at me totally astonished and say "what?" (They have no clue about it, and don't believe me, when I ask about an opion)...

Hell, I always thought I'm an ignorant guy, but this reaction is what really troubles me!

[Sea Demon]

Guys, the cold war is over... really.. it is.:yep:

Well, we understand that. But I don't think the Russians have caught on yet. ;)

[Stealth Hunter]

I'm stockpiling bananas, all we're gonna want after the radiation turns us into monkeys

Futurama, lol.

"It's just that Yancie keeps tryin' to steal my stuff!"
"Well he better keep his hands off these bananas! Gonna need 'em after the radiation turns us all into monkies..."

[Redbrow]

Let's see - they began sending nuclear shipments to Iran on Dec. 16 a bit over a month ago. Prior to that by some months they began flying their old Bombers intruder missions. After Dec, 16th they began dusting off their navy. This month they have fired their weapons right where Europe could feel it (not actually but in a symbolic way) like a shot across Europe's bow sort of speak, and they are ramping up more navy actions. Now Russia has delievered 66 metric tons total, the 6th shipment being made yesterday
http://en.rian.ru/world/20080124/97631970.html
Oh and the wall between Egypt and Gaza was blown by someone who was certainly an expert, not your average Palestinian, and this should keep Israel looking over its shoulder as it eyes Iran, and meanwhile Bush has been up to his usual breathings of war against Iran....

Then there is IBM. Except for auto companies making deals with unions recently, and a few airlines and their unions, I don't know of any companies the size of IBM that have cut worker's pay in one day and one hour by 15% since the 1930s. True - the Fed made its big money drop from the choppers on Monday...but Ibm's stock was little effected by the market drop anyway. I do know from many friends in IBM that yesterday IBM did something it has never ever done - it suddenly told several thousand workers in Global Services that their pay would be cut by 15% effective that day. This is during a period of inflation and high gas prices. Now why do I mention Ibm? I have learned from work done in it over the years and by friends there and by family there, that IBM is WELL CONNECTED with the Powers That Be. Many times in the past it has done self-protection messures long before an economic or political disaster has hit, even while most other companies - some larger - have not seen what was coming.

So when IBM suddenly does something strange and something it has never done before and when its stock is little effected, I must assume it knows from its sources that something big is headed our way. Seeing that this is a dire action, I must assume what ever that thing is, is not too far off in the future - say a week or a few weeks at most.

How IBM normally did things: Usually when a division is doing badly it first cuts hours and fires temp workers, Second it will offer packages to workers who will accept an agreement to quit on their own. Third, it will begin a stealth layoff, laying off people by ones and twos so as to avoid the news and papers. So what it is doing this week is not according to its SOP used for the last 15 years. Something is coming.

[mrbeast]

I'm stockpiling bananas, all we're gonna want after the radiation turns us into monkeys
:rotfl:

We practically are monkeys to begin with. :lol:

Besides all those bananas will go off after a couple of days. :yep:

Seriously though, I think everyone is keeping quiet because saying something, anything about it at all would simply escalate the situation. So at the moment its probably best to ignore it publically. IMO think Russia is indulging in one of those national pride muscle flexing displays it likes to indulge in recently.

Interesting info about IBM, maybe they should set up an IBMometer to predict future crises? :hmm: Its difficult to tell though whether IBM is simply preparing for a global economic down turn and possible recession or something else.

[Skybird]

I'm wondering if any of our European members here are concerned about Russia's missile exercises off your coasts. Think it's a little provacative? Maybe even a little destabilizing? Is this a shot across America's bow, Europe's, or the entire NATO as a whole?

I myself don't believe it's directly threatening to us. And I wasn't overly impressed with the display. But I'm surprised Europe has been so quiet about it.
No, I don't see it as a threat, I see it as a gesture of showing "We're back", but no immediate threat. what has potential to become threatening if europe drops it's guard is the Russian's strategy of trying to make Europe depend on Russian energy exclusively. they try to acchieve this by enforcing market shares for GASPROM's distribution network in europe, and building their own new pipeline in direct rivalry to a western-American project.

From their perspectives, these attemopts are legal and logical. Europe is a strong and potent hightech economy, and a political rival. To raise options to influence it's decisions is a tactic that recommends itself. the many broken promises by NATO concenring the expansion to the EAST, and the obvious betrayal that took place, did not helpt to calm ressentiments, but alarmed them and raised additonal new suspicions. Since they can afford to rebuilt their military now, they do it.

The day I cannot understand the motives behind their policy-making anymore will be the day I get nervous about them. But today? No. since being confronted with a Russian wall the EU cannot brake through may be a healthy experience for the EU and may even save the EU from itself, I even see some value in a stronger Russia - from a European perspective, even more so when considering that a world having fallen off balance after 1989 has been a world that is worse off than before, and the US not being able to act responsible as the globe' only temporary superpower. Obviously a counter-balance is needed to bring some stability back to the global military balance. China currently can do that on a regional scale only, but is not yet a global military player. But Russia is, and it was a great mistake by NATO to ignore all previous deals the Russians were willing to put their trust in. They got betrayed, and now react irritated and draw their conseqeunces. Washington also would not like to see Canada and middle america turning into russian satellites, with sensors and troops standing immediately at the border. And Washington would not have liked if promises were made that this would not happen - and then these promises were broken and facts created.

[XabbaRus]

What's to be concerned about? Russia sends a bunch of ships to the N. Atlantic and fires off a bunch of missiles....I love the way the news makes it out that Russia is back ready to attack.

I think the western nations got so used to an impoverished Russia that they don't know how to deal with a newly enriched Russia on the prowl.

[STEED]

Not one bit. :smug:

[Oberon]

Not concerned, intrigued and interested in what Vlad is going to do next, but not wholly concerned. Vlad is not dumb, in fact, I'd go as far as to say he's one of the smartest world leaders out there at the moment, and he knows where the line is drawn and just how far he can push things.

[Blacklight]

I'm not concerned at all. Every nation has the right to defend itself and therefore have weapon systems. They also should have the right to test those systems. There is no better way to test weapon/sensor systems than a live fire exercise. Every country does this. Russia is just beginning to rebuild itself. This includes their armed forces. They need to train their people and test their equipment. Just letting that stuff sit in mothballs without testing it once in a while can lead to severe problems later on down the line should they need them.

My only concern is the "retail" side of these exercises (And their military parade in the Red Square as well). It's obvious that live fire exercises are watched by potential "buyers" from other countries. Russia is so strapped for cash (and rife with corruption in certain areas) that they don't really care much about who they sell what to. The majority of weapons systems that Iran and North Korea have mostly come from purchases from Russia.

[Sea Demon]

Not concerned, intrigued and interested in what Vlad is going to do next, but not wholly concerned. Vlad is not dumb, in fact, I'd go as far as to say he's one of the smartest world leaders out there at the moment, and he knows where the line is drawn and just how far he can push things.
I hear ya Oberon. But I'm not so sure that Putin is very smart at all. The real threats he faces will come from the East, not the West. You can guarantee that. Russia's future problems will not come from us at all. As a matter of fact, we have shifted much of our emphasis from North Atlantic to the Western Pacific. Any guesses why? I wonder why Putin hasn't caught on yet. Inviting other nations into NATO and the USA's BMD is of no threat to Russia at all. Putin may fear that Russia may not be able to "influence" those former Eastern European countries who wish to join NATO. But where's the threat? Putin needs to understand this world is changing, and security agreements are changing. His failure to realize this will send Russia chasing after non-existent ghosts. Mr. Putin seems intent on sending a message that Russia is back, fine. But I don't think we gave him the response he wanted. That's why I asked the question in the first place to those in Europe. And so far, sure enough, just as I thought, not alot of concern. Only intrigue. We here in America pretty much yawned at this news. What if Russia makes this an annual event though? Will Europe become perturbed by that type of intrusive exercise? Couldn't the Russians conduct similar exercises in their home waters?

[Oberon]

He'll probably continue to provoke until we give him the response that he wants. Quite why he's not picked up on the east yet is beyond me, could be he's focusing his attention more to the Middle East than to the Far East, or he's trying to exert his power back over the former WP nations by bullying Georgia and the Ukraine and just hasn't considered China yet, I dunno. However, he is shrewd and calculating, and reasonably popular in quite a few circles last I heard...and let's face it, to successfully run a country like Russia, you need to be damn sharp, as well as good at juggling. ;)

[Blacklight]

What's "Intrusive" about it ? They're doing live fire "Exercises" meaning testing and training in INTERNATIONAL WATERS. I don't think at all it's a show of force toward Europe or NATO. If they chose to do this in the south Pacific would it mean they're threatening Japan ? No. I don't believe for an instant that this is for intimidation purposes. I think it's for training, testing, and for showing off weapons systems/sensors to potential buyers.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

I hear ya Oberon. But I'm not so sure that Putin is very smart at all. The real threats he faces will come from the East, not the West. You can guarantee that. Russia's future problems will not come from us at all. As a matter of fact, we have shifted much of our emphasis from North Atlantic to the Western Pacific. Any guesses why?
From the Western perspective, until Russia gets a lot more of its strength back, indeed China and the Middle East is a higher priority than the North Atlantic.
To the Russians, it doesn't look that way. True, China may (probably "will") become a threat in the future, especially if they ever get that little island to their right back. But right now at least, they are partners buying their weapons and putting money into thet arms industry. Right now, the threat of NATO encroachment looks a heck of a lot closer. It is the United States putting an ABM station close to their territory, not China.
I wonder why Putin hasn't caught on yet.
Believe your goodwill? Right...
Will Europe become perturbed by that type of intrusive exercise? Couldn't the Russians conduct similar exercises in their home waters?
Ask America the same question, and you'll have a whole new perspective. America's national policy depends on doing "intrusive exercises" all over the world. They call it "Show of Force" or "Power Projection".