%$#@*^!@!!!!

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Never the one to cuss but this really got me. Started over a new career and 1st patrol off the Indochina coast. I went up against the most vicious weather. Tsunami-like waves towering 20 feet! My officer kept saying depth 20 feet and my deck crew disappeared probably thinking we were going periscope depth. This is quite annoying and the boat in relation to wave movement is unrealistic. I tried Living Breathing Ocean but it contrasted with both ROW and Environmental Color. The ocean looked way too black so I enabled LBO first then the other two (hey, what do I have to lose?) No good. getting tossed all over the place at a speed of under 5 knots at a time. I even modified the files and it made my sub sink into the ocean while the tidal waves bury me. Can't get rid of that surfboarding sub either. Somebody kill me!:damn:

[AVGWarhawk]

Bad day at sea sir? I'm wondering...do you have the rock and roll submarine mod by Dave? Also, the most I have seen for wind in kts is 15. I'm just wondering what you have installed from the ROW thread:hmm:. Other than that, here is a lifeperserver:D

[Elder-Pirate]

Also, the most I have seen for wind in kts is 15.


Well 15 meters per second game wise is the same as "Beaufort Scale" #7 which is pretty heavy seas of 13 1/2 to 19 ft waves looks like this.......http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/Beaufort_scale_7.jpg

Beaufort Scale link......http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale

:lol: The sub should be tossed around.

[AVGWarhawk]

Ok, when I'm using ROW pitch and roll mod for the sub I do not get the surfing sub. A little bit but not like it was in stock. Are you using the ROW pitch and roll mod?

[Elder-Pirate]

Ok, when I'm using ROW pitch and roll mod for the sub I do not get the surfing sub. A little bit but not like it was in stock. Are you using the ROW pitch and roll mod?

Stock 1.4 and in a 15 m/s storm the sub is like a rock and roll star. :rotfl: I've never seen it surf on the waves like some tell it for stock 1.4, it's allways the bow dips and the stern comes up and vice versa.

Eddit: OPPS....Maybe your last post was not meant for me?
Sorry AVGWarhawk.

[Angus89]

Btw, you mentioned LBO. It is included in Row. Might be a conflict there. Or just save you loading redundant files.

[AVGWarhawk]

Ok, when I'm using ROW pitch and roll mod for the sub I do not get the surfing sub. A little bit but not like it was in stock. Are you using the ROW pitch and roll mod?
Stock 1.4 and in a 15 m/s storm the sub is like a rock and roll star. :rotfl: I've never seen it surf on the waves like some tell it for stock 1.4, it's allways the bow dips and the stern comes up and vice versa.

Eddit: OPPS....Maybe your last post was not meant for me?
Sorry AVGWarhawk.

It was for Davyjones. No problem:up: Just seems strange he is experiencing this. Angus might be on to something as LBO got a crap load of changes when incorporated in ROW. Might be a good idea to dump the LBO and current ROW files. Download fresh ROW files and wait on Krillers scene.dat file to be completed for ROW. The new scene.dat and two bugs that were repaired have done wonders:yep:

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Yep, using Row Pitch and Roll mod. Somebody help! Damn waves stalling my sub! Talk about going nowhere fast!:damn: Think I'll take off LBO as mentioned above. The Row mod replaced some things from it. No kidding the waves are high enough to cover the whole boat.:o

[Angus89]

Just a small addition, but you are in a submarine. Dive below the storm as they did in reality. Storms also will wreak havoc on your fuel consumption.

[AVGWarhawk]

Here is the next headache and this really sucks. Some of the mods were found to have a letter capitalized in the file name. When JSGME looks to return the original file to it's stock place after deactivation, it does not move it as it is looking for the replacement with the same name. With the capital letter, JSGME will not return the file. Therefore it is lost. At least his is how it was explained in a thread a few weeks back. Therefore, I would (you do not have to) delete the entire game and make sure all files and folders are gone. Fresh install of game and mods. Just get the ROW files only. The new scene.dat file from Kriller will just be an addon. Do out at end of week he is hoping. Load, activate and you are set. It is up to you how you want to handle that.

[Angus89]

Just a small addition, but you are in a submarine. Dive below the storm as they did in reality. Storms also will wreak havoc on your fuel consumption.

[AVGWarhawk]

Just a small addition, but you are in a submarine. Dive below the storm as they did in reality. Storms also will wreak havoc on your fuel consumption.


From what I read, they road them out on the surface. I do not remember the reason.

[DrBeast]

Here is the next headache and this really sucks. Some of the mods were found to have a letter capitalized in the file name. When JSGME looks to return the original file to it's stock place after deactivation, it does not move it as it is looking for the replacement with the same name. With the capital letter, JSGME will not return the file. Therefore it is lost. At least his is how it was explained in a thread a few weeks back.
Yes, I still remember that blunder I had made. I had discovered this in an older version of JSGME, whereas there was a newer one out that took care of this (which I thought I had) :oops: Latest JSGME disregards upper/lower case and replaces/backups files properly.

ETA: Interesting topic title, DavyJonesFootlocker...very uh...descriptive :rotfl:

[-Pv-]

DJFL is getting a reputation as a complainer in my book. The cursing as the next level does not surprise me. 15m/sec is the maximum wind speed the game will produce which when sustained long enough WILL produce the maximum wave height of 20 ft. Ride it out surfaced or submerged. Just be glad your boat doesn't react the way real boats do in that weather and your crew so sick they are only 50% effective. Be glad you're not kissing the ocean as you rock back and forth and the ocean is not pouring into the hatch.
Be glad you can still use the deck gun in 15 winds and 20ft waves because UBI got so much flack in SH3 they stablised the boyancy model so you can do whatever you want all the time.
-Pv-

[Nuc]

Just a small addition, but you are in a submarine. Dive below the storm as they did in reality. Storms also will wreak havoc on your fuel consumption.


From what I read, they road them out on the surface. I do not remember the reason.

I don't think there was a hard and fast rule but the CO had to consider the ship's saftey. If there was a need to resurface before the weather cleared it was a risky operation. You can't see or hear if you are coming up under something. The boat is unstable and a severe roll or pitch could realese the high pressure air being blown in to the main ballast tanks allowing them to reflood and depleating the air banks for another try.

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Well, Pv I think I have a right to complain. I bought this sim with hard-earned money. Not to complain means suffocating consumer's rights. Perhaps it's a fault of mine and I screwed up the mods order of installation. Take it back or I'll sic my chihuaua on you!:lol:

Ahem, anyway I loaded up all ROW files, then TM then RSRDC for TM then all the rest. The boat isn't that unstable anymore. Submerging may be fine but what if you're low on fuel? Not an option but to stay and fight the waves. My pet peeve is that the engines cut off when the props get airbourne and you can heear the powerplant wheezing. The speed goes from 5-3 knots at times.

[joea]

My pet peeve is that the engines cut off when the props get airbourne and you can heear the powerplant wheezing. The speed goes from 5-3 knots at times.

How do you know it didn't happen to the real skippers? :hmm: Not the engines cutting off but the speed going down, a lot.

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Not so much of the slow speeds just the engine cutting off every few minutes. Something you really don't want to hear in the middle of nowhere. What is funny is when the sub plunges 20ft STILL SURFACED! and your deck crew disappears below (since they think we were going periscope depth). I really need to stop smoking those funny cigarettes!:yep::lol:

[seafarer]

:hmm: Well, how did they deal with waves breaking over the aft conning tower? That would flood the main induction valve, and you would not want that pouring into the engineering spaces. I thought there were check valves that automatically closed and opened in heavy weather, and that would indeed cause the diesels to surge - they certainly did so on boats with snorts operating in heavy weather. The snorkle's float valve would close off as it dipped beneath a wave, the engines would slow from the lack of air and then surge again when the snorkle valve re-opened.

I know the diesels had overspeed governors on them, so is it possible too that as the screws come out of the water, the motors surge creating a brief extra power draw, causing the diesels to surge as well until the auto-governors kick in?

If so, that would be easy to have modeled in the game with a simple sound file of engine noise surging.

[SteamWake]

Just a small addition, but you are in a submarine. Dive below the storm as they did in reality. Storms also will wreak havoc on your fuel consumption.


From what I read, they road them out on the surface. I do not remember the reason.

I was going to post "What the heck are you doing on the surface in this kind of sea state".

Now Im wondering... Ive always just dived when the seas were too rough and sleep through the storm at a few knots.

Wonder what the reason for taking a pounding like that is.

[seafarer]

Yeah, page 172 of the Fleet Tyle Submarine online mentions in the General Surface Operations, part B: Ship Handling

Possible hull distortion, and damage to bow tube shutters, diving planes, superstructure, and bridge strongly indicate that the submarine should not be pounded into heavy seas unless absolutely necessary.

Of course, it does not specifically say to dive...

[-Pv-]

"My pet peeve is that the engines cut off when the props get airbourne and you can heear the powerplant wheezing. The speed goes from 5-3 knots at times"

This is what's REALLY happening...

When the boat is at the bottom of a 20ft trough and the water barely covers your keel, the waves are towering over you, the sim considers that surfaced at 20+ ft depth. When you have waves crashing over the bridge and your bridge is covered, the sim considers that surfaced at @15ft depth.
The mystery of why the boyancy model reversers its sense of depth when the waves reach a certain hight is something CODED into the game. That's the flaw we've been living with for nearly a year now.

At times you may even get 24-27 ft excursions. When that happens, your boat temporarily transitions to electric power and back again. This takes time. You lose speed between each of these transitions. I really doubt you are hearing the engine/screws freewheeling because they are out of the water. To the sim, they are never out of the water because your boat never has less than a 14 foot draft (just watch the text readout of the depth in the lower right corner and you'll see what I'm talking about. It shows maximum depth when your boat is out of the water, and mimimum depth when your boat is nearly submerged.

The visual effect of the bottom of the boat being out of the water is cosmetic only. What you are hearing (if anything) is the switch between diesle and electric power. The next text/verbal call is something like 40 ft (I think) so you aren't made aware of the engine switch when too much water is over the bridge (which occurs at something close to 26 ft. on a fleet boat.)

Although you will travel less distance, submerging in rough weather using 2 knots will ultimately use less fuel than slugging it out on the surface switching propulsion constantly. Another clue is to watch your deck crew from the Crew Management screen. If they are blinking on and off the deck frequently, you should consider changing your mode of travel. Even though the boyancy model dosn't know what the depth of the water graphics engine is, the crew knows what the effective depth of the sub is for governing their behavior.

The technique I use is to do 2 knots submerged until battery is 1/2 then surface at 1/3 to recharge (this charges at the fastest possible rate and keeps my low battery exposure time to a minimum.) If I'm in enemy control areas, I only recharge at night so I won't get forced back down on a low battery.

Game design flaw or not, it's what we have. The boyancy model is coded into the game and anything the modders do that I've seen is cosmetic and so miniscule compared to the stock game as to be nearly indistinguishable to me. To the game engine, you are surfaced with your props in the water all the time. If the waves are high enough, you temporarily transition to electric power and back again to diesle. The engines shut off between each of these transitions.

Yelling at people to fix stuff is not going to get it fixed because everone has their own gripe. If UBI worked on everyone's gripe they would finish patching it to the next level in 2020. This particular boyancy behaviour has been in place through four patches now.
-Pv-

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

I wasn't yelling at anyone, just voicing my frustration. Good explanation. This is the negative part of games. Companies rush out half-baked games with bugs and the consumer pays high prices for them (at least down here). It isn't fair. Would one buy a new car with a set of flaws? I think not. Then why should video games be any different? Yes, they send out patches, but what if one has no internet connection? He has to either access one or pay to have one- an additional expense unfair to the buyer. One could argue, well don't buy any games, but I do enjoy games. SH4 survived I believe due to the modders who kept the game afloat (no pun intended). There are some really obvious flaws they haven't addressed yet:

1. The ocean movement in relation to the boat;
2. The dynamic wind direction in relation to national flags on ships;
3. Unrealistic aircraft characteristics;

Some may find I'm complaining and I know there's no 'perfect' game. But I do think I or any consumer has a right to do so. But you have to agree that at least the flaws mentioned above should've been addressed at least. I heard of an add-on so maybe it may be fixed. Let's hope.

[Snuffy]

... 1. The ocean movement in relation to the boat;
2. The dynamic wind direction in relation to national flags on ships;
3. Unrealistic aircraft characteristics ...

With Ubi's time in the aircraft simulation field, you'd think they'd get this one right ...

I guess their thinking was ... most of these sub drivers are going to be diving when aircraft are spotted and they're not going to be paying attention to the aircraft most of the time during that dive. So, we'll just fudge the flight characteristics. Who'll notice?

[SteamWake]

... 1. The ocean movement in relation to the boat;
2. The dynamic wind direction in relation to national flags on ships;
3. Unrealistic aircraft characteristics ...

With Ubi's time in the aircraft simulation field, you'd think they'd get this one right ...

I guess their thinking was ... most of these sub drivers are going to be diving when aircraft are spotted and they're not going to be paying attention to the aircraft most of the time during that dive. So, we'll just fudge the flight characteristics. Who'll notice?

I see it as "Hey this is a submarine simulator not a flight simulator. Lets put our efforts into the submarine part".

Furthermore to start ripping at the games "mechanics" when youve added mods over mods and on top of other mods is a bit amusing.

[Rockin Robbins]

When they're spotted!!!!! I'm diving when they're 5 miles out on radar. Those suckers could be sporting feathers and I'd never know it!:rotfl:

[Sailor Steve]

With Ubi's time in the aircraft simulation field, you'd think they'd get this one right ...
I'd say part of the problem there is that UBI actually has NO time in the aircraft simulation field, or the submarine simulation field, or any other game field. UBI is the publisher, and they hire teams to create the games or sims they want to publish. If anyone on the SH4 team has actually worked on a flight sim before it's probably random chance. Even then, the people writing the code are going to do what they're told. After all, that's what they're paid for.

[-Pv-]

" 1. The ocean movement in relation to the boat;
2. The dynamic wind direction in relation to national flags on ships;
3. Unrealistic aircraft characteristics;"

The points being raised here are so MINOR compared to the things which have been fixed so far, and the strong points of the game which is playable now with a great degree of satisfaction. Although it is graphically strong compared to any other naval simulation, it is not perfect, will never be and 10 years from now if anyone is playing it, there will still be flaws in SOME person's opinion. After all, the game's retail price was average for this level of simulation and I've not seen ANY game at this price which didn't ship with a truckload of percieved or real flaws. You want to see another naval sim at this price with flaws in the flight models? Try Pacific Storm.

Ship flags simply face backward all the time as if they are moving against the wind with forward ship movement. Actually, this works fine for any ship underway, so it's not a flaw except for motionless ships. I couldn't care less. A motionless ship with no wind and you coudn't even read the flag. Is this what you really want? Spend more money on the sim to get this tweaky little detail? Nonsense. This particular compromise probably saved you $20 in the cost of the game. Now if you had spent $60 on the game and you still didn't like the aircraft dynamics, then you would still be complaining. Without spending thousands of dollars modeling wind effects in the game, you are frankly stuck with this and if you think you paid for a flight simulator where you and all the ships and planes in the game will get blown off course by the wind costing you an additional 1/3 of your fuel to get anywhere, IT"S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. The game is compromised to provide a specific arena of stisfaction based on the time the company decided to spend in development and what they percieved as a reasonable cost to charge based on other similar games on the market. They could have doubled the price and spent two years in development. Some have insisted this is what should have been done. In that case, you would not have the game to play now, half of us would not have bought it at the price, and it would still be flawed. Personally, the game has given me more entertainment than if I had spent $500 at the movie theater.

I would also suggest the service this web site offered to potential buyers of the game where all these flaws were well known and discussed at length since the earliest days and you still bought the game shows a certain naivete.

Those of us who are enjoying the game are well aware of all the flaws. We make the best of the game's strong points and work around the weak points. There is no perfect game at this price. I've not seen a perfect game at any price. The closest is Falcon4, but it's been in development for 10 years, has had thousands of people work on it, I've spent about $90 on it personally (not including hundreds of hours of download patch and install time) and it's about 92% perfect (if you discount the 10 year old graphics engine.) If graphics rules your game satisfaction, then Falcon4 is only 50% perfect after 10 years and all that investment. Still the absolute finest modern air combat game ever made at any price.

Of course you're entitled to complain. However your complaints are not new or unique, nor is the community or the devs unaware of them. So, after a while no one gets any benefit from seeing the same ol' laundy list published over and over again. It becomes like a dripping faucet. Water still comes out of the faucet so the device serves it's purpose.
-Pv-

[RickC Sniper]

1. The ocean movement in relation to the boat;
2. The dynamic wind direction in relation to national flags on ships;
3. Unrealistic aircraft characteristics;

Some may find I'm complaining and I know there's no 'perfect' game. But I do think I or any consumer has a right to do so. But you have to agree that at least the flaws mentioned above should've been addressed at least. I heard of an add-on so maybe it may be fixed. Let's hope.


I hate it when my torps miss because I allowed for too much "windage".
:arrgh!:

[-Pv-]

hehe. Yea, those flags can really throw you off. Very deceptive of the enemy. Or is it the crewl devs?
-Pv-

[joea]

With Ubi's time in the aircraft simulation field, you'd think they'd get this one right ...

I guess their thinking was ... most of these sub drivers are going to be diving when aircraft are spotted and they're not going to be paying attention to the aircraft most of the time during that dive. So, we'll just fudge the flight characteristics. Who'll notice?

Well if you're talking Il-2 it was a separate company and team that developed that...ubi just published it.

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Oh, wait, Pv I gotta other complaints. Those damn birds. Don't they ever sleep? They fly in the day AND the night! Had those pesky avians in SH3 too.Those devs need cooking lessons for sure.:rotfl:And wait what about that mountain part at Cavite? The lower half is missing on external view. What? The Japanese cut it out with a Kitana blade?:yep::lol: Wait, wait! don't go yet. Think the devs will give me the add-on for free after stock game was half-baked? You think?

I demand my money back!:rotfl: