How many more will it take?

[AVGWarhawk]

The tazer has to go. Another traffic incident, a tazer and a dead guy.



http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/17/national/main3724886.shtml

[Kapitan_Phillips]

To be replaced with what?

[The Munster]

Often wondered if they can be deployed on a person that has a pacemaker fitted; wouldn't this sort of shock affect it ?

[CCIP]

Often wondered if they can be deployed on a person that has a pacemaker fitted; wouldn't this sort of shock affect it ?
That's an understatement if I've ever seen one :dead:

Seriously, the question shouldn't be "replaced with what" - the question is of replacing the "philosophy" of using it. Right now all these scandals coming out are cases where it was used as a supposedly non-lethal device. It's not a non-lethal device. It's maybe a slightly-less-lethal device than a gun, although some have argued that shooting people without aiming for vital areas might actually be safer... And since when are police officers chosen from a pool of wussies who can't go in and wrestle an unarmed person to the ground? Afraid to get their feathers ruffled now are they?

Taser use needs to be severely restricted, and the approach to it needs to be as to a very dangerous, harmful weapon that should be used not to enforce cooperation, but to incapacitate people who present an immediate and serious threat.

[AVGWarhawk]

To be replaced with what?

Replaced with good officer training and officers who know how to control a traffic stop. Worked for quite some time before the tazer.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Would one of those extreme cases include someone who was resisting arrest yet was much bigger in stature than the officer in question? Its not as simple as just pouncing in there and having a scuffle, who knows what anyone could be carrying on them and what might be going through their minds.

Not co-operating with an officer automatically sets off alarm bells in his/her head - why are they so anxious not to leave the vehicle, why do they refuse simple orders, why do they not put their hands on the wheel. Its more complicated than saying "Its killed people, make it hard to access". Its probably saved more lives than its ever taken.

[SUBMAN1]

Here you guys will like this:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-11-30-taser-motorist_N.htm


A Utah trooper who used a Taser to subdue a stubborn motorist who was walking away from him during a traffic stop felt threatened and acted reasonably, state officials said Friday.


So I guess walking away from an officer is now a threat.

-S

[AVGWarhawk]

That is the video I posted a few months back. This guy was out of control with tazer. He conducted this stop totally wrong.

[AVGWarhawk]

KP,

Unfortunate we do not have all the details on this recent tazing but the guy was going to pick up his parents at the airport. Other than speeding that probably got him stopped, what else could he have done to warrant a the tazer? I hope more details come out on this.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

That is the video I posted a few months back. This guy was out of control with tazer. He conducted this stop totally wrong.


Then its the cop, not the tazer that was at fault. Training should be stricter, yes, and punishments more severe for misuse of the weapon, but it certainly not be less accessable than it is now.

[CCIP]

I'm tired of this "scary situation for an officer" stuff. It's one thing when you're in a situation where someone's gone out and created an exteme situation (say, went in somewhere and started shooting), or the operation where the cop is involved is something like a confrontation with a gang of criminals; but a traffic stop is another thing. Seriously, don't these guys get paid to take a bit of an extra risk for the sake of public safety?

Anyone got a statistic on how many cops actually get shot while conducting routine traffic stops or calls to accident sites? I have a feeling that this doesn't happen an awful lot. Unlike these incidents that I'm constantly hearing about.

Seriously. It disgusts me that people who are supposed to protect the society are so scared they're willing to hurt innocent people just to avoid any possible risk to - who else - themselves!

[AVGWarhawk]

If it looks to be a "scary situation" call for back up. Go to the cruiser and call it in. Other officers will be there in a hot minute. Officers need to be schooled in controlling and being the authority when making traffic stops etc.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Anyone got a statistic on how many cops actually get shot while conducting routine traffic stops or calls to accident sites? I have a feeling that this doesn't happen an awful lot. Unlike these incidents that I'm constantly hearing about.


http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2006/table19.html

[AVGWarhawk]

Good table KP but do you think better officer training and training that happens every year might reduce the numbers shown? I do. Adding more weapons is not part of training to handle situations IMHO.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Its easy to say that cops need to learn to be more authoritative during traffic stops, but what can they do? If the perp is uncooperative, simply repeating over and over what you've already said is highly unlikely to work, and could even lead to the person becoming more and more aggressive. Calling for backup and wrenching them out will send them screaming brutality, so there's not alot cops can do.

I dont think its a question of banning the tazer, I think its a question of finding alternative ways of doing things that'll actually work.

[CCIP]

Besides, 64 officers in traffic stops in 10 years... not a terrifying number if you ask me. Perhaps that needs to be in context of the total number of traffic stops made each year.

It's not that I'm dismissing the danger entirely, but does this really justify using such a dangerous weapon in any situation where a stop doesn't go as planned? Also, how is tazer not "brutality"?

I'd rather people get roughed up a bit by police than have their internal organs potentially fried, for one. Likewise, I'm more willing to live with 6.4 officers killed in a country the size of the US each year due to this cause than risk these kinds of outcomes.

[AVGWarhawk]

The good old billy club worked well. Unfortunate I see more and more that the tazer is the easy way out of handling situations that normally escalate because the officer allowed it to escalate. Control is lost. Take a look at the video from the officers video cam in submans post . The stop started out bad because the cop let it start out bad.

You have to undestand something. The tazer shoots electricity through out your body. Your body functions by small electrical charges that jump from neuron to neuron. This includes your heart and brain. What happens to a wire that can handle 120 volts that receives 240 volts? ZAP, SMOKE, FIRE. Same situation here with the tazer. The friggin thing is lethal to the human body.

A broken arm or cracked rib from a billy club certainly is better than having electricity sent through your body that can and will stop your heart. Worked great with the electric chair. Works great with tazers also.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

bean bag shotgun... non lethal unless shot at the gonads region :lol:

[Skybird]

You guys see it all wriong. It's the war on terror age of time - what we really need is gigawatt-tazers, you see.

[Oberon]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7198742.stm

Just saw this on the local news.

[Dowly]

To be replaced with what?

With sane cops maybe?:hmm:

[U49]

To be replaced with what?

With sane cops maybe?:hmm:

Why not try something new :hmm:
Yes, sounds like a good idea...

But it doesn't sound like a high probability that it will happen... :(
"Less muscels - more brains" is an idea that has never survived a politician who wants to prove something...

[Onkel Neal]

Would one of those extreme cases include someone who was resisting arrest yet was much bigger in stature than the officer in question? Its not as simple as just pouncing in there and having a scuffle, who knows what anyone could be carrying on them and what might be going through their minds.

Not co-operating with an officer automatically sets off alarm bells in his/her head - why are they so anxious not to leave the vehicle, why do they refuse simple orders, why do they not put their hands on the wheel. Its more complicated than saying "Its killed people, make it hard to access". Its probably saved more lives than its ever taken.

I agree with this, if people would simply comply with the peace officer, most of this, if not all, could be avoided. The reality is, we need police, they have a job to do, and if someone feels he is being wrongly arrested or detained, in this country, he should tell the judge. I cannot imagine why police officers have to be compelled to scuffle with people physically in order to detain them. I certainly would have none of that if I was a cop.

I would opt for tranqulizer dart guns, but surely some people would end up dead from this to, from some kind of allegric reaction or something. Just follow the officer's instructions, that would work.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Here's an interesting site I go to:

www.realpolice.net (http://www.realpolice.net/)

You can talk to real cops.

[AVGWarhawk]

The deal with a tranq gun would not work. Doesn't the weight of the receiver come into play with the amount of actual tranquilzer used? In other words, enough juice to sedate a 200# man but use it on a 100# man. He might get the permenant sleep.

[TteFAboB]

Simplify it people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2PCG_yYqYs

Just make sure to tell the robber to pretend that he's stuck and pretend that he fell to the ground because of it.

[sonar732]

I remember a while back a thread being posted regarding a student refusing to leave the library from his college. After multiple attempts of the college security officers telling him to leave, they finally gave him a shot from their tazer. He still didn't leave and they shot him again.

It all comes back to if someone had a complaint of why they were being singled out, they can have their day in court and then sue the police department. Now, they wait until they resist arrest, get hit a few times by the officer, and cry wolf sueing the department.

Please don't think that I'm writting a blank check for all officers as I've seen video of some guys who do comply with the officer and get hit anyway. It's something that I've grown up knowing....it's always one bad apple that ruins it for everyone.

[AVGWarhawk]

Simplify it people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2PCG_yYqYs

Just make sure to tell the robber to pretend that he's stuck and pretend that he fell to the ground because of it.

Now, if we could just electrify the net....then we got something:up:

[clayp]

Often wondered if they can be deployed on a person that has a pacemaker fitted; wouldn't this sort of shock affect it ?
That's an understatement if I've ever seen one :dead:

Seriously, the question shouldn't be "replaced with what" - the question is of replacing the "philosophy" of using it. Right now all these scandals coming out are cases where it was used as a supposedly non-lethal device. It's not a non-lethal device. It's maybe a slightly-less-lethal device than a gun, although some have argued that shooting people without aiming for vital areas might actually be safer... And since when are police officers chosen from a pool of wussies who can't go in and wrestle an unarmed person to the ground? Afraid to get their feathers ruffled now are they?

Taser use needs to be severely restricted, and the approach to it needs to be as to a very dangerous, harmful weapon that should be used not to enforce cooperation, but to incapacitate people who present an immediate and serious threat.

The problem is people who dont have any idea what its like to be in a Policemans shoes at the moment something goes down and you only have seconds to react,I DO...The most biggest problem is the NEWS MEDIA!!!! They blow everything up...

[silentrunner]

Officers need better training when used corectly the taser can be an efficient and safe tool. When used incorectly due to insufficiant training the taser can be almost as dengrous as a firearm. My father (who is a police officer) claims that every time he has used a taser it ends any situation without harm to the suspect of (most importantly) the officer.

[Slang]

What happended to good ole pepper spray?

[sonar732]

What happended to good ole pepper spray?

There can be a civil suit with pepper spray also because some people might be allergic to the oils or say that it caused pernament damage to their eyes.

No matter how you look at it, the police force will always been under the knife as it doesn't matter what type of submission hold, non-lethal device, or lethal force that's used...someone will sue them.

On the flip side, I remember a while back talking to a few officers and them joking around how they just shut off the camera when they come up to certain situations...that disturbed me greatly! :o

[August]

So I guess walking away from an officer is now a threat.

Nice monday morning quarterbacking but what if the guy was going for a gun?

A police officer tells you to put your hands behind your back then you do what he says, you don't argue with him or attempt to run away.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

So I guess walking away from an officer is now a threat.
Nice monday morning quarterbacking but what if the guy was going for a gun?

A police officer tells you to put your hands behind your back then you do what he says, you don't argue with him or attempt to run away.

Damn you, you managed to condense my point into two sentences :rotfl:

[August]

Damn you, you managed to condense my point into two sentences :rotfl:

Great minds think alike?

[orwell]

You guys see it all wrong. It's the war on terror age of time - what we really need is gigawatt-tazers, you see.
Really, it's quite sad to see the age of the communist threat pass and the rise of the terrorist threat. You could enjoy a nice, civil, cold war with the commies. In this day and age of terrorism from abroad and from the home, no longer is a man free to express himself, he needs a police state. Which is where we're going (if you listen to the news).