VIIB vs. VIIC

[Graf Paper]

I've earned enough renown to trade in my trusty U-47 type VIIB u-boat for a type VIIC boat.

Upon comparing the vital stats of the two variants, I noticed the only apparent differences listed was the VIIB is slightly faster both surfaced and submerged but the VIIC is three seconds faster in its dive time and somewhat larger in its displacement tonnage.

Is it really worth it to spend 3,000 Renown getting the VIIC? Can any of you more experienced Kaleuns clue me in on the advantages the VIIC may or may not have over the VIIB besides having a secondary flak gun?

[Penelope_Grey]

trading in for a VIIC is a good move as they have faster dives, and even more useful... a stronger pressure hull. the VIIC could generally go deeper than the VIIB use ful when the escorts begin to get good.

Also the VIIC has far more options for upgrade over the VIIB like better conning towers.

Also the speed difference is negligable at best a VIIC will do 8 knots submerged too.:up:

[GlobalExplorer]

I tried to stick with the VIIB because it looks much better :) I think the C has more hitpoints and it can dive deeper, but I am not qualified to make claims.

[Sledgehammer427]

yeah and the VII/C look cooler too lol

i like the quicker diving time, and the huge amounts of skins that u can D/L for them

[Wolfehunter]

VIIC is far better looking too.:up:
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff110/WolfeXhunter/U99funshot1.jpg
Don't you agree..:up:

[Penelope_Grey]

LOL does it matter?

As long as it does the business. lol

[GlobalExplorer]

size dont matter eh ;)

[Deathfrombelow23]

I prefer the VIIB. It is 500 less renown and if you look, it has a longer submerged range than the VIIC by 10 KM or so -- this helps because I do not feel the need to upgrade to the longer-lasting batteries when they become available later (= less renown spent). Not to mention that it's just slightly faster than the VIIC. The extra 3 seconds of dive time that the C has is of no significance to me. I doubt 3 seconds is going to make THAT much difference. Once you're down to about 9-10 meters or so, you become very difficult to hit with a deck gun and 3 seconds later you're passing periscope depth. I like the way the VIIB's look too. In real life, I believe the VIIC's had slightly longer range and could dive a bit deeper, but I am not sure if this is modeled in the game. Someone was saying the VIIC has more hitpoints??? Please, DO TELL!!!! :lol:

[Graf Paper]

Well, now I'm just merely confused instead of uncertain. lol

So the biggest differences between the VIIB and VIIC is as follows:

VIIB - Faster surface and subsurface speeds and longer endurance submerged.

VIIC - More durable and greater maximum dive depth with marginally quicker dive times.

At least this is what I've gathered so far from everybody's replies so far.

Having more options for future upgrades, especially radar, sonar, and anything else that helps to increase your advantage would definitely tip matters in favor of the VIIC....unless those same options are also available for the VIIB. I could really care less about deck/flak guns as I try never to put my boat in a position where using them is needed except for finishing off a merchant you don't want to waste any more torpedoes with just to sink them.

[kiwi_2005]

flip a coin.

Thats what i do none of this deep thinking about what im going to choose the coin decides every time :)

[Julius Caesar]

Well, now I'm just merely confused instead of uncertain. lol

So the biggest differences between the VIIB and VIIC is as follows:

VIIB - Faster surface and subsurface speeds and longer endurance submerged.

VIIC - More durable and greater maximum dive depth with marginally quicker dive times.

At least this is what I've gathered so far from everybody's replies so far.

Having more options for future upgrades, especially radar, sonar, and anything else that helps to increase your advantage would definitely tip matters in favor of the VIIC....unless those same options are also available for the VIIB. I could really care less about deck/flak guns as I try never to put my boat in a position where using them is needed except for finishing off a merchant you don't want to waste any more torpedoes with just to sink them.

That is the biggest advantage of VIIC: more upgrades are available later in the war.
You could also save money and switch to IX and sink some Yankees.

[NealT]

Agreed. Goes further and faster, deeper and faster, and you can get more upgrades.

Besides...with GWX 2.0 mods you can even have one that has missile silos build right into the decking...:lol: :lol: :lol:

[froschman]

I have seem the renown system as a way to simulate how BdU will handle the Kaleuns. The more successful a Kaleun is, the faster he will get new uboats, better crew and new equipment.

There is no meaning just to save renown point to get into some high point list at the end of the war. I use it to choose between alternatives, but I use up my renown points when I can get something I want.

[Abd_von_Mumit]

LOL does it matter?

As long as it does the business. lol

Indeed it matters, in fact it does the business BECAUSE it's pretty !
Look at WW II era french subs, they perform as they look :rotfl:

No no no! A boat is like a penis - size doesn't matter at all, so it doesn't have to be large. Instead it has to be long and thick.

[melendir]

LOL does it matter?

As long as it does the business. lol
Indeed it matters, in fact it does the business BECAUSE it's pretty !
Look at WW II era french subs, they perform as they look :rotfl:
No no no! A boat is like a penis - size doesn't matter at all, so it doesn't have to be large. Instead it has to be long and thick.

As Dr. Evil said in Austin Powers 3: "Welcome to my submarine lair. It's long and hard and full of seamen." :rotfl:

[Jimbuna]

LOL does it matter?

As long as it does the business. lol
Indeed it matters, in fact it does the business BECAUSE it's pretty !
Look at WW II era french subs, they perform as they look :rotfl:
No no no! A boat is like a penis - size doesn't matter at all, so it doesn't have to be large. Instead it has to be long and thick.

As Dr. Evil said in Austin Powers 3: "Welcome to my submarine lair. It's long and hard and full of seamen." :rotfl:

LOL :rotfl:

I prefer the VIIC for the upgrade potential http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[Wulfmann]

Every second counts when you must dive quickly as later when the aircraft are after you and the C can dive about 50 meters deeper so that is a big deal when you hear the cans drop and you hit flank to get out of the way. That equals 7-10 seconds before they reach you and that can be life or not life!!!:yep:

I will take the C any day all day. Give me deeper.

Wulfmann

[ReallyDedPoet]

The VIIC, better dive times, more upgrades, etc., etc :yep:


RDP

[Deathfrombelow23]

One more thing I thought of... the VIIB has less upgrades in terms of AA firepower, which is useless to me anyway. I don't stay on the surface and gun it out with aircraft, so I don't need a quad flak or the heavier flaks that the VIIC can get. Also, the VIIB offers a second flak tower sometime in '42 for a second smaller AA gun... which is about all I need, at most. If the VIIC's historical slightly longer range is not modeled, it doesn't make sense to me to get a VIIC. I save my renown for a type XXI in March, '44. Since those bad boys are 20,000 points, I save all I can, because later in the war... late '42 on... I don't sink a whole lot, it's more of a survival game. Can I get to my patrol station and home alive? So, I don't use renown on extra AA towers and guns and supercharged diesels... I'm thinking long-term and saving for the XXI. Some may spend their renown on those things.... I guess mine is just a different way of looking at things. As far as I know, a VIIB CAN be equipped with a snorkel later in the war, correct?

[Abd_von_Mumit]

I've performed many diving time tests with my VIIB. The best I can achieve repeatedly is 19 seconds (decks awash, 7.0 m depth, 8.5 knts - than you hit C and start your clock). If I could shorten it to 18 seconds, it would be worth spending 10k renown. It's a 5% difference, not so bad. And this one second can save my life. March '40 I was bombed by aircraft by Norwegian shore almost to death, they appeared from nowhere, the first bomb was dropped like 50 seconds after the "aircraft spotted" report. So never say a second doesn't matter. :)

[Wulfmann]

I'm thinking long-term and saving for the XXI.

You could just edit the cfg so the XXI was 1,000 or 5,000 or whatever. That was put in by UBI as a gaming number and has no basis for anything unless you want to think so.
I never changed it from 20K because if I get that far I have 20K anyway and I can't use the renown at Wal-Mart so can but a XXI!!:rotfl:

Wulfmann

[High Voltage]

Deeper....Deeper...

[Jimbuna]

U-flack...shoot down a few fly boys.....before you get killed http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/wacko.gif

[Graf Paper]

So it certainly seems the opinion is that the VIIC is a worthwhile investment for its greater diving depth and more extensive upgrades, giving it the edge over the VIIB despite the VIIB being somewhat faster and having a greater submerged range ( 90nm vs. 80nm, thats 18.5km or 11.5 miles difference ).

Now, aside from some modeling work being done by Tomi_099 giving even more compelling reasons for having a VIIC, are the upgrades that really count for sinking enemy ships and evading detection also available for the VIIB? By this, I mean things such as radar, radar detection, anti-sonar coating, snorkel, etc.

The guns like quad-flak and 108mm deck are good to have if you need them but, like I've said before, I try to avoid needing them and rely mainly on stealth for defense.

I suppose I should mention that U-47, my VIIB boat, has the turbo-charged diesels and quick-charge batteries, giving her a top speed of 18kts surfaced and 8kts submerged.

It's currently early June 1940 in game and I'm sailing with the 1st Flotilla out of Kiel. Am I better off saving my points for a Type IX variant later when I get transferred with the flotilla to Brest?


I've always started my careers with 1st Flotilla in September 1939 but my long break from SH3 has left me clueless! :doh:

[BulSoldier]

Surcouf - thats what a true submarine is - twin 8inch guns not our funny 88mm ! :rotfl:

she also had aircaft and a boat onboard :D

http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/macslog/FrenchSubmarineSurcoufthe.html

[Jimbuna]

So it certainly seems the opinion is that the VIIC is a worthwhile investment for its greater diving depth and more extensive upgrades, giving it the edge over the VIIB despite the VIIB being somewhat faster and having a greater submerged range ( 90nm vs. 80nm, thats 18.5km or 11.5 miles difference ).

Now, aside from some modeling work being done by Tomi_099 giving even more compelling reasons for having a VIIC, are the upgrades that really count for sinking enemy ships and evading detection also available for the VIIB? By this, I mean things such as radar, radar detection, anti-sonar coating, snorkel, etc.

The guns like quad-flak and 108mm deck are good to have if you need them but, like I've said before, I try to avoid needing them and rely mainly on stealth for defense.

I suppose I should mention that U-47, my VIIB boat, has the turbo-charged diesels and quick-charge batteries, giving her a top speed of 18kts surfaced and 8kts submerged.

It's currently early June 1940 in game and I'm sailing with the 1st Flotilla out of Kiel. Am I better off saving my points for a Type IX variant later when I get transferred with the flotilla to Brest?


I've always started my careers with 1st Flotilla in September 1939 but my long break from SH3 has left me clueless! :doh:

Try the 2nd Flotilla in Sept 39 (IXB)

[Avatar]

Hey,
I'm on my 2nd career(GWX2.0). My first career was with GWX1.03, but I didnt get to finish, because 2.0 came out. I made it to summer 1944 before I upgraded to 2.0.
On the first career, I waited until the VIIC-41 was available and by then I needed it. After I purchased it, I was offered Radar Absorbing Material and Sonar Absorbing material v.2, immediately. I think that the schnorkel was available to the VIIB. The main thing I needed bythen was the radar absorbing material. Escorts will detect you and chase you off all the time. Once I was without RAM and a DD detected me, but I didnt notice this and raised the TC only to be blasted out of the water.
It is possible to make it to the VIIC41 without purchasing the VIIC, but you have to be alot more careful.

[U49]

Submerged range is a critical factor for my tactics and thus I prefer VIIB until the year '42 comes....

Starting from here on the advatages of VIIC's equipment options and it's diving abilities come into play... regretable I think I loose about 10% underwater range....

[Tiny]

I have the VIIB because of the deck gun...ofcourse I am only in 1939 so no merchants have guns yet :stare:

[Deathfrombelow23]

The VIIC has a deck gun too, if I'm not mistaken? I've always wondered... is the increase in diving depth of the VIIC/41 and VIIC/42 modeled in the game? Can they really dive deeper than the regular VIIC? I just started a new career... GWX 2.0 -- I started in March of 1941 with the 1st Flotilla out of Kiel. Just sank a coastal freighter with my deck gun 25 KM north of Scapa! Not a bad way to start a career. I'm worried about when I get to late 1942 though... would an upgrade to a VIIC/41 or 42 be worth it?

[deepboat]

My VII B has served me well for 10 war patrols. I'll probably switch to a VIIC/41 when it becomes available and I'll have lots of renown to build it up.

[Wulfmann]

IMO, the type IX boats are like a truck comparing the Type VII to a Porsche.
The niners are slow to dive, don't maneuver well and can not dive as deep as a type VIIC.
The critical later part of the war finds survival as being able to detect the AS ships course, when they drop their loads and being able to turn and move quickly so as not to be where the cans go off and being 50 meters deeper is a big deal as well as the ability to maneuver better.
If you intend on South American/African patrols then the 9 is fine but it does not do well in the big heavily escorted convoys.

But, perhaps that is playing to my methodology and 9Kaleuns have developed their own means to deal with these matters.

I have never run out of batteries in a 7C but that is because too many determined AS never allowed me to live that long.

Wulfmann

[Jimbuna]

Can't disagree with much of what you wrote, but coming across a convoy in a Type IX means you have more firepower to do a lot more damage....provided of course you select the right tactics when planning your strategy http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[Wulfmann]

Can't disagree with much of what you wrote, but coming across a convoy in a Type IX means you have more firepower to do a lot more damage....provided of course you select the right tactics when planning your strategy http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

I am happy to have one less fish and a much better chance to survive. Pre-mid 41 it does not matter much but from mid 41 on it helps and from 5-43 it is a life and death difference.

If you have been running a 7 hop into a 9 and be ready for a surprise.
First you think your PC slowed down when you call to dive as nothing happens
(Now, if you have done SH4 in a pig boat well, that tub diving is like watching paint dry. Very slow drying paint at that!!!)
Then try turning the 9, click hard right rudder and go get a drink while you wait for the turn to start!!!!

Seriously, in a convoy attack the ability to maneuver quickly as a convoy turns, to me, is more important than 6 over 5 fish. After 1940 I fire and dive deep from silent and do not reload so extra reserve is also not a big deal as I operate closer to base for resupply.
They are different experiences and the best one is the one you prefer.
Different war really and I want to do a late war 9 some day. South Atlantic, Indian Ocean definitely not the NA convoys though.

Wulfmann

[Julius Caesar]

I just switched to VIIC (from VIIB) and noticed something that wasn't there in VIIB (I think :hmm: ). What is it?

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/5628/32639212nq6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/4683/86884219rk9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Jimbuna]

Can't disagree with much of what you wrote, but coming across a convoy in a Type IX means you have more firepower to do a lot more damage....provided of course you select the right tactics when planning your strategy http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

I am happy to have one less fish and a much better chance to survive. Pre-mid 41 it does not matter much but from mid 41 on it helps and from 5-43 it is a life and death difference.

If you have been running a 7 hop into a 9 and be ready for a surprise.
First you think your PC slowed down when you call to dive as nothing happens
(Now, if you have done SH4 in a pig boat well, that tub diving is like watching paint dry. Very slow drying paint at that!!!)
Then try turning the 9, click hard right rudder and go get a drink while you wait for the turn to start!!!!

Seriously, in a convoy attack the ability to maneuver quickly as a convoy turns, to me, is more important than 6 over 5 fish. After 1940 I fire and dive deep from silent and do not reload so extra reserve is also not a big deal as I operate closer to base for resupply.
They are different experiences and the best one is the one you prefer.
Different war really and I want to do a late war 9 some day. South Atlantic, Indian Ocean definitely not the NA convoys though.

Wulfmann

Gave up the VII over a year back because of the lack of range and firepower. As I said earlier, the limitations as you see them regarding the IX are valid from your perspective.
But, being a IXer you'll understand my limitations issues with regards to the VII :lol:

Each to our own I suppose http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[Penelope_Grey]

LOL is that a snakeskin U-Boat?

[Jimbuna]

LOL is that a snakeskin U-Boat?

:lol: Don't be so cruel.....We be over on TS if your not too busy with the yorkshires ;)

[Wulfmann]

Gave up the VII over a year back because of the lack of range and firepower. As I said earlier, the limitations as you see them regarding the IX are valid from your perspective.
But, being a IXer you'll understand my limitations issues with regards to the VII :lol:
Each to our own I suppose http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

Absolutely each to his own, the right way is the way you want it.

Since range and extra reserve are the advantages to a IX and I can see that so except for the NA convoys battles where do you primarily operate? I believe that is the issue, the right tool for the right job and since I notice most of these were lost away from the NA (though some were lost in the NA as well) it seems their strong points would be further away and with less heavily escorted merchants.
Or, have you adjusted to using these in the big convoy battles?:hmm:

Wulfmann

[Jimbuna]

Gave up the VII over a year back because of the lack of range and firepower. As I said earlier, the limitations as you see them regarding the IX are valid from your perspective.
But, being a IXer you'll understand my limitations issues with regards to the VII :lol:
Each to our own I suppose http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

Absolutely each to his own, the right way is the way you want it.

Since range and extra reserve are the advantages to a IX and I can see that so except for the NA convoys battles where do you primarily operate? I believe that is the issue, the right tool for the right job and since I notice most of these were lost away from the NA (though some were lost in the NA as well) it seems their strong points would be further away and with less heavily escorted merchants.
Or, have you adjusted to using these in the big convoy battles?:hmm:

Wulfmann

TBH I usually go (initially) to wherever SH3 Commander sends me. I usually only hang around for 48 hours and if it's quiet, I then like the range to go 'a hunting' :lol:

Like you've said, I simply try to adjust to the big old girls limitations ;)

[CptGrayWolf]

I just switched to VIIC (from VIIB) and noticed something that wasn't there in VIIB (I think :hmm: ). What is it?

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/5628/32639212nq6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I've asked that question before, and never got a good answer. I don't think anybody knows, maybe some kind of antenna or a spike to 'pick up' english survivors... It doesn't seem to be historicaly accurate whatever it is.