SH3 vs SH4 Questions

[Petsman]

I play SH3 gwx 1.3
I am considering to buy sh4 but i hesitate because of the things i read in the forum.
Can you enlight me in some things?


1. Anti-Detection tactics and depths are as in Sh3? Also asdic range?
2. Can you choose in ehich engines the subs can work ( all or half of them)
3. Position keeper is necessary or not? I mean without it will the TDC automatically will update the solution like in SH3?
4. As I read , do you really need a lot more torpeodos to sink a ship comparing to sh3
5. manual targeting the same? I mean 3minute rule , aob calc e.t.c.?
6. Shooting at specific comps of the ship will sink it faster?( like engines or ammo bunkers) or it is as gwx 1.3?
7. Is there a mod in Sh4 like gwx? I know about Tmaru but is it good or i have to wait for something like gwx?
8. Milk cows in sh4?

Thanks in advance!

[Zero Niner]

Keep in mind this is a different theatre of operations, with different equipment, enemies and capabilites of the belligerents, and set your expectations accordlingly. It's not "U-boats in the Pacific" - although I believe an official add-on will be coming out that addresses the operations of U-boats in the western Pacific/South and South East Asia.

I'm giving my opinions as an avid simmer who spent quite a bit of time on SH3/GWX in its various incarnations, so take it for what it's worth. The usual adage about my meat being your poison etc applies.

1. Anti-Detection tactics and depths are as in Sh3? Also asdic range?
Can't really compare, imo. U-boats were generally capable of achieving greater depths than US subs. I am unable to comment on in-game Japanese (IJN) sonar capability, but historically they were weaker than US/British ASW capability in the Atlantic. I think the game (esp with the appropriate mods) simulates this but as I am still new to the game, I can't say for sure.
However the general principles remain the same - dive deep, go slow, silent running, presenting a small profile etc.

2. Can you choose in ehich engines the subs can work ( all or half of them)
No, afaik. But this I think is realistic as US subs were constrcuted differently. In the fleet boats, the engines were coupled to electric motors (for propulsion) or generators (to charge batteries). Unlike U-boats, they were never coupled directly to the prop shaft to turn the propellers.
That said however you can turn off battery charging if you need an extra 1 or 2 knots speed on the surface.

3. Position keeper is necessary or not? I mean without it will the TDC automatically will update the solution like in SH3?
Yes, but the US TDC works differently from the German one. No salvo option, for one (historically correct). But it has one advantage - it can track your current target (provided there is no change in course and speed) whilst you use your periscope to look at another one.

4. As I read , do you really need a lot more torpeodos to sink a ship comparing to sh3
Not really, small merchants take about 1 - 2 torpedoes, medium 1 - 3. The damage system in the stock game is similar to stock SH3, i.e. hitpoints. There is a mod that changes this to flooding, like what GWX did for SH3. What you may be seeing is the problem that US subs had early in the war - torps that did not work as designed. For example, last night I fired two fish at a IJN subchaser. Both exploded prematurely. I had to fire a 3rd one which finally hit, and sank the ship within 5 minutes.

5. manual targeting the same? I mean 3minute rule , aob calc e.t.c.?
SH4 gives you the option of having measurements in imperial or metric. Beyond this I cannot comment. But then again, I imagine that the principles would be the same. It is after all merely a complex problem in geometry.

6. Shooting at specific comps of the ship will sink it faster?( like engines or ammo bunkers) or it is as gwx 1.3?
No idea. There is a mod (Natural Sinking Mechanics) that I think tries to do for SH4 what GWX (or the original mod that was incorporated into GWX) did for ship sinking in SH3. With the mod, ships sink by flooding. I do know that there are critical hits, but whether these are merely a matter of probability or tied in to zones I don't know, as I have yet to use it.

7. Is there a mod in Sh4 like gwx? I know about Tmaru but is it good or i have to wait for something like gwx?
Currently there are 2 mods similar in scope to GWX, so in a sense these are the "GWX"'s of SH4. One is Trigger Maru, which I am using myself, and the other is Real Fleet Boat. I will leave it to RFB users to extol its virtues. For me, TMaru is a satisfactory supermod that addresses most of the inaccuracies and quirks of SH4.

8. Milk cows in sh4?
No, simply because the USN did not have such submarines in the Pacific in WW2. You can however rearm and refuel at designated friendly bases and continue your patrol. For example during the war boats from Pearl Harbor would stop at Midway Island to refuel on their way to/from their patrol zones around Japan. You can do so in the game.

To summarise, if you like the subject matter (US submarine operations in the Pacific in WW2) then you should purchase a copy. I was disappointed by the bugs/inaccuracies when it was first released (plus distracted by SH3! :D ), but with the latest patch (1.4) & mods most annoyances are fixed and I am now enjoying the game.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Also to add to the above, do a search on the topic and you will find many old threads discussing it. Bottom line, SH3 after close to 3 years, amazing game, SH4 not quite a year old, is getting there :yep: Two great games, nice time to be into sub-simming.


RDP

[Rockin Robbins]

Submarines are not like automobiles. They don't have standard controls. You can expect the American submarine to work quite differently from the German "equivalent." You can expect the Pacific ocean to be very different from the German "equivalent."

One historical fact you can count on: the German U-Boat was poorly designed and tactics improperly drawn, leaving Germany unable to achieve victory (in fact U-Boats ensured Germany's defeat) in its theater.

The American submarine was well-suited for its task and stategy adequate for victory in the Pacific.

The first time you encounter a convoy with 24 immediately useable torpedoes you'll understand.:up:

What's the point of risking your life to urinate on a forest fire?:rotfl:If you can't carry enough water to put it out you're better off staying home.

[Wilcke]

Welcome to SH4, you will surely enjoy it....first begin with reading this wonderful historical outlook provided by Ducimus; http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=128185

For more historical background which is very important to getting the most out of the SH4 sim...you can find some really good reading on the Submarine War in the PTO. I am currently reading Silent Victory, which gives a very good account of what was what!

Enjoy, it has become an outstanding sim....IMHO.

[masonardo]

Overall I have been a bit disappointed in SH4 vs SH3. As it stands now SH4 1.4 is still quite buggy and generally has a very "arcadey" feel stock, much more so than SH3. However, the big mods (ROW, RFB, etc.) are excellent and help restore the SH3+GWX sim feel to it and fix many of the problems. There is still a long way to go though and there isn't a full GWX-type complete package that does everything. So you kind of have to hunt and peck for the mods that have what you want and hope they don't cause problems with each other.

There is no comparison in gameplay imho between the AI and realistic feel of SH3+GWX vs SH4 and the current mods right now. Destroyer/aircraft AI is weak, traffic needs alot of work, ports (ugh), torpedo/deck gun damage. weather, etc. - all works in progress and far off from SH3. Graphically SH4 is better (I would say marginally but that's relative to everyone) but that's about it.

The most important thing is that I have yet to feel close to the tension/excitement of my u-boat in SH3 tracking down convoys, running the channel, or raiding ports to name a few.

That said, SH4 is very inexpensive right now (I paid $18 new at BB), so if you are a fan of SH3 at all it's a no-brainer to pick it up and play around with it while the mods mature. I would imagine alot of serious captains will be sticking to SH3+GWX for quite a while though.

[Fincuan]

There is no comparison in gameplay imho between the AI and realistic feel of SH3+GWX vs SH4 and the current mods right now. Destroyer/aircraft AI is weak, traffic needs alot of work, ports (ugh), torpedo/deck gun damage. weather, etc. - all works in progress and far off from SH3. Graphically SH4 is better (I would say marginally but that's relative to everyone) but that's about it.

I take it you haven't tried SH4 with the mods then? If you had, you'd have a very different opinion :)

[Rockin Robbins]

I would say that because SH3 totally ignores U-Boats working together in wolfpacks, and because wolfpacks were so central to submarine strategy in that theater, that leaves the simulation fatally flawed beyond the ability of the excellent GWX team to salvage it. I love the game, but simulation of the true U-Boat experience it is not!

SH4, however, comes much closer to reproducing the experience of the US sub captain than SH3 does for the German side because of the above deficit.

That's my problem: I avoid controversy.

[mookiemookie]

I would say that because SH3 totally ignores U-Boats working together in wolfpacks, and because wolfpacks were so central to submarine strategy in that theater, that leaves the simulation fatally flawed beyond the ability of the excellent GWX team to salvage it. I love the game, but simulation of the true U-Boat experience it is not!

You've hit the nail on the head there. That being said, the US boats operated in wolfpacks too. Would have liked to have seen at least a nod to that.

[AVGWarhawk]

Funny thing is..................the developers said a few weeks ago, "We have heard about the wolf packs from the community loud and clear." Take it for what it is worth. At any rate, SH4 is just coming along fine. The mods created thus far are excellent.

[Ula Jolly]

Submarines are not like automobiles. They don't have standard controls. You can expect the American submarine to work quite differently from the German "equivalent." You can expect the Pacific ocean to be very different from the German "equivalent."

One historical fact you can count on: the German U-Boat was poorly designed and tactics improperly drawn, leaving Germany unable to achieve victory (in fact U-Boats ensured Germany's defeat) in its theater.

The American submarine was well-suited for its task and stategy adequate for victory in the Pacific.

The first time you encounter a convoy with 24 immediately useable torpedoes you'll understand.:up:

What's the point of risking your life to urinate on a forest fire?:rotfl:If you can't carry enough water to put it out you're better off staying home.
I believe this assessment is wrong in many ways. It is though not the topic of the thread to discuss the actual differences between the theaters, but merely the games that depict them.

[Galanti]

Bottom line - it's your personal preference of theater.

Frankly, if you tally up each's flaws and triumphs, they pretty much even out, so in the end you have to decide if you prefer U-boats to Fleet boats.
Rockin Robbin: :rock: I love SH3/GWX, but do find it it's much ballhooed superiority to get quite tiresome.

[ReallyDedPoet]

So you kind of have to hunt and peck for the mods that have what you want and hope they don't cause problems with each other.



The plus side of the above though is that the game is very customizable in it's current state. The larger the mod, the more difficult this can be.


RDP

[seafarer]

To be honest, I try not to compare them too much anyway. I have both installed and play both.

They were released over 2 years apart, involve completely different forces, technologies and in very different theaters of the war. The graphics, IMO, are too different to even be comparable, and the technologies (eg. air warning radar from the very beginning for SHIV, at least if you start the war with a Sargo class boat) make tactical comparisons difficult (in SHIV, I simply do not worry about air threats as I always have ample time to dive out of danger, while in SHIII it is often the single biggest threat I have to be concerned about). Navigation is often a much bigger issue in SHIV then in SHIII as well, simply due to the nature of the operational area (eg. down off Indonesia or Malaysia or the Celebes sea - or try operating on the Sunda Shelf or Java Sea).

And I would not rate SHIV, 1.4 as bug-ridden - it is simple not that laden with flaws to warrant that term. The 1.4 patch with TM 1.7.5 and a few other mods is an very enjoyable game.

As is SHIII with GWX2 - I give 'em both a :up:

[ReallyDedPoet]

To be honest, I try not to compare them too much anyway. I have both installed and play both.



Correct, threads like this are old news, enjoy em' both for what they are, two great sims :yep:


RDP

[Galanti]

To be honest, I try not to compare them too much anyway. I have both installed and play both.



Correct, threads like this are old news, enjoy em' both for what they are, two great sims :yep:


RDP

Two outstanding sims! If you were to survey the premier offerings in every sim genre today, I would say the WW2 sub sim genre easily has the most comprehensive, immersive, historically faithful and plainly gorgeous simulations to choose from, IMO.

We are indeed fortunate. Our cousins in the flight sim community, for example, have some excellent choices in IL-2, Falcon4 and LOMAC, but all of these games possess glaring shortcomings in one category or another. We can either go with SH3 and SH4 and we are getting pretty much the definative War 2 undersea warfare experience.

Although, and I never would have said this even four months ago, some Brit sub ops out of Ceylon would be nice.

[Rockin Robbins]

Submarines are not like automobiles. They don't have standard controls. You can expect the American submarine to work quite differently from the German "equivalent." You can expect the Pacific ocean to be very different from the German "equivalent."

One historical fact you can count on: the German U-Boat was poorly designed and tactics improperly drawn, leaving Germany unable to achieve victory (in fact U-Boats ensured Germany's defeat) in its theater.

The American submarine was well-suited for its task and stategy adequate for victory in the Pacific.

The first time you encounter a convoy with 24 immediately useable torpedoes you'll understand.:up:

What's the point of risking your life to urinate on a forest fire?:rotfl:If you can't carry enough water to put it out you're better off staying home. I believe this assessment is wrong in many ways. It is though not the topic of the thread to discuss the actual differences between the theaters, but merely the games that depict them. Let's start another thread and discuss that! I was replying to his evident expectation that in order to measure up, SH4 had to have the same AI, sub controls, TDC and tactics as a U-Boat. They are different. If that is his standard the American boats and SH4 will not "measure up." The reason is that the simulations reflect the reality that you contend is not the topic of the thread. Watch for my thread and let's see some of your "so many ways." This will be interesting when you see my full reasoning.

[Petsman]

My fellow Captains!..You made me sad:cry:

I play SH3(GWX 1.03) for years at high realism (88%).
I am in the forums for quite some time and I do ude the search function a lot. When i post questions the reason is that I did not find any clear or satisfying answers in the forums.

All I wanted is some clear answers to some specific question.

I did not have the intension to compare the two games. I want to know some vital for me gameplay differences. I believe SH4 is a great game equal to SH3 and even potensially better!

I am sad cause only ONE answered to my questions and i thank him. Even thought he did not had answers for all of them. Then the others were just arguing.

Could you please answer to my questions.

Thank you Captains!:ping:

[Rockin Robbins]

1. Anti-Detection tactics and depths are as in Sh3? Also asdic range?Any anti-detection tactics that work in SH3 will also work in SH4 with one exception: Ducimus' evil depth charging planes, which can see you at periscope depth, charge you without warning.

2. Can you choose in ehich engines the subs can work ( all or half of them)Yes, in that you can choose to charge batteries, which unhooks one or two engines from propulsion. Other than that, no.

3. Position keeper is necessary or not? I mean without it will the TDC automatically will update the solution like in SH3?The American TDC, in order for the PK to work, needs to be specifically input data. Otherwise, as you pointed your scope around you would ruin your setup. Put it this way. The PK is what continuously updates your aiming point, not the periscope. Overall, it works better that way. If you wish to use a strategy reminiscent of U-Boats (and that will also educate you quickly and understandably about the differences in TDC operation) see my before-referenced tutorial on the Dick O'Kane targeting technique. I find the differences between U-Boat and American submarine TDCs very enjoyable.

4. As I read , do you really need a lot more torpeodos to sink a ship comparing to sh3No. I like to use WernerSobe's Natural Sinking Mechanics for more realism.


5. manual targeting the same? I mean 3minute rule , aob calc e.t.c.?Trigonometry is trigonometry. It all works the same, all over the world. Triangles have the same characteristics in the Pacific as they do in the Atlantik. Because of the differing TDC/periscope interface you will obtain the information somewhat differently but it will all be familiar and entertaining to adapt what you already know to the Pacific theater.

6. Shooting at specific comps of the ship will sink it faster?( like engines or ammo bunkers) or it is as gwx 1.3?In the stock game the different compartments do have different cargo that influence the amount of damage the ship takes. However the ship is assigned a certain amount of hitpoints. When the number is reached the ship explodes and sinks like a stone. However Natural Sinking Mechanics changes all that to a logical array of compartments. Hitpoints are increased so the size and contents of the compartment then determine how the boat sinks. For example: a full tanker will explode and burn because the cargo does. But an empty tanker will only sink by flooding and can absorb a discouraging amount of torpedoes. Sinking times are historically long when a ship is flooding. Multiple torpedoes in the same spot do little additional damage due to a hardcoded defect which I suspect is also present in SH3. For more info go to the Mods forum and read WernerSobe's thread on Natural Sinking Mechanics.

7. Is there a mod in Sh4 like gwx? I know about Tmaru but is it good or i have to wait for something like gwx?No, there is no mod anywhere like gwx. SH4 is a better stock game anyway, needing less comprehensive treatment. That being said TM is not the end of your modding as GWX tries to be for SH3 (although SH3 is full of people who ignore the GWX team's cautions about unexpected mod interactions and layer them anyway with usually unfortunate results). TM affects both submarine and environment, but mostly submarine. Natural Sinking Mechanics leaves all that alone and shapes characteristics of individual surface ships. Reflections on the Water is an environmental mod changing water and sky and light characteristics. Run Silent Run Deep is a campaign mod, changing how targets are organized, where they go at certain dates. By design each of these modders and mod teams have left areas outside their field untouched so you are completely free to use them together and I recommend you do so after you get a feel for the naked game so you can appreciate the changes. Other than sub skins, radio mods and Real Deck Gun, that is all I use. I predict that Real Fleet Boat will be the mod to use in a few months. That team rocks!

8. Milk cows in sh4?No. They didn't work for the Germans but were great entertainment for Allied ASW teams. The milk cow crews were not amused. The US developed forward bases where the subs could refuel, similar to Germany's exploitation of neutral ports, especially in Spain, for that purpose.

Proviso: the SH4 mission concept is much better than SH3. Instead of a quadrant to patrol with no instructions and total freedom to do what you wish, SH4 gives you objectives which you need to accomplish most of or you will be relieved of command. In addition, after your cruise is completed you have the ability to purchase upgrades, hand out medals and promote crew members. Extending your cruise by refitting and going back out cripples your career by denying you new subs from construction, refits and all of the above. When you accomplish your mission return to base and end your cruise. You won't be relieved of command and you will get all those goodies selfish captains forego in their quest for highest cruise tonnage. High command doesn't care about that.:lol:

Thanks in advance!So I've answered all eight of your questions, plus one you didn't know to ask, although Zero Niner did a great job and I previously had not thought I needed to do a "me too" post. I guess that's what you wanted though. Do I get a better grade now?:know:

[Petsman]

uote: Originally Posted by Petsman
3. Position keeper is necessary or not? I mean without it will the TDC automatically will update the solution like in SH3?
The American TDC, in order for the PK to work, needs to be specifically input data. Otherwise, as you pointed your scope around you would ruin your setup. Put it this way. The PK is what continuously updates your aiming point, not the periscope. Overall, it works better that way. If you wish to use a strategy reminiscent of U-Boats (and that will also educate you quickly and understandably about the differences in TDC operation) see my before-referenced tutorial on the Dick O'Kane targeting technique. I find the differences between U-Boat and American submarine TDCs very enjoyable.



Thanks for everything.

Just something for the P.K. Can I do not use PK? I mean can input the data to tdc (speed range bearing aob) and then like sh3 will the tdc auto update the aob?

[CaptainHaplo]

Petsman,

The first set of answers you got were very accurate. You will need more torps to sink the enemy, only because of the problems (historically accurate) that existed - as time passes those are alleviated. Things such as prematures, deep runners, circle runners, etc.

As for the hits sinking ships - it depends on if you stay with "Stock" SH4 or use the NSM mod. NSM creates realistic sinkings like GWX does. For example, hitting the same spot twice wont really help much to sink your target, since all it does is still flood one compartment. Since NSM causes sinking due to flooding, you have to flood enough compartments. Of course, there is always the change you get a critical hit and one shot blows the target to bits.

There really isnt a GWX for SH4 yet - it took a long time for GWX to get built, in time something similiar will likely appear. There are some "super mods" out but nothing the scope of GWX as yet.

ASW tactics and such are similiar, but ranges and the mechanics differ quite a bit. After all, you and your enemy are using different equipment - not german Uboats and allied escorts. For example, US subs never had an anechoic coating or decoys during the war. Different IJN escorts would have different asdic ranges based on the equipment they carried, etc.

Individual engine control is not available, much to the chagrin of many. Its not in SH3/GWX either for the same reasons - its cannot be modded in at this time.

Manual targetting is the "same" mathematically speaking. The 3 minute rule still applies, as well as all the other calculations. SH4 gives you the ability to use imperial or metric so if your used to metric you wont be totally shut out of doing manual targetting.

There was no such think as a "Milch Cow" for the USN - fleet boats held alot more fuel, food and ordinance than the type VII. The concept was never used by the USN in the pacific except in a rare emergency personel transfer or some such.

The position keeper - its not a yes or no - the TDC operates totally different than the one on Uboats. This is historically accurate. You may use the PK or not depending on how you play.

Get SH4, patch it to 1.4 - then play a bit - with a grain of salt. Figure out what does and doesnt work for you (like stock is very arcadish with gun reload times, traffic, etc) - then get mods that make it more what you want. Both RFB and TM are excellent starts, although I suggest adding the NSM (damage/sinking mod) and RSRD (historical traffic mod) to whichever one you use as combined they really make things much more realistic.

One note - if you do this - dont think that, like in a uboat, being underwater is protection from aircraft. Historically, in the pacific, you could be seen as deep as 150 feet or more - and get bombed. This is recreated in some mods so dont be suprised.

[Rockin Robbins]

In SH4 the PK updates the TDC parameters: range, AoB, torpedo track, not the periscope. In SH3 it is assumed you are doing a fast-90 approach. In SH4 the TDC works with any configuration of own and target tracks! This amazing advantage allowed you to set up a solution no matter what your relationship to the target is.

I recommend that you attend WernerSobe's Advanced School of Submarine Attack Tactics in his stickied thread above and follow the links I have previously posted in this thread when I was merely "arguing" to attend his amazing tutorials. Then my seminar on the Dick O'Kane attack procedure is available on page 5 (I think. Might be 4) for you to see what you can do if you turn the blasted PK off. Actually, subsequent experience and Arronblood's input have introduced some refinements, but they are not necessary to hit the target and so I have left the tutorial as is. I may make a new tutorial at some time but would leave the old one in place. It may be more instructive anyway as I got itchy trigger fingers and blew the attack, although all torpedoes hit and the target went down. See if you can spot the errors!

I will tell you that electing never to use the PK is just as crippling as deciding always to use the PK. A variety of attack techniques leads to greater success and the American submarine has a versitility the U-Boat cannot dream of. Results of my testing procedures:
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/BattleFlag_USSKraken_RockinRobbins.jpg
The two planes were from when I was young and stupid. Don't shoot at those...

[Petsman]

Thanks Rockin, just one more thing. Why you said that when i cmomplete the objectives i should go back to port. What if i do some free hunting for a while?




P.S. In Sh3 the TDC didint assume that you do the fast 90 aproach. You could find a solution at any angle the then the optics updated the tdc as the bearing to target changed.
Any good tutorial for 100% realism?

[kylesplanet]

Thanks Rockin, just one more thing. Why you said that when i cmomplete the objectives i should go back to port. What if i do some free hunting for a while?




P.S. In Sh3 the TDC didint assume that you do the fast 90 aproach. You could find a solution at any angle the then the optics updated the tdc as the bearing to target changed.
Any good tutorial for 100% realism?

After you complete your objective, you radio in your status report and you will get another objective as long as you have enough fish. I think when your down to five fish, they stop giving you objectives. If you have enough fuel left then you can hunt away but fuel management is a priority in this game.

If it is later in the war and you can reach some of the other ports to refit, you can hunt until your heart is content but don't radio in or you will get new objectives. I don't think thats historically accurate but still, you can do it.

[Linavitch]

What if i do some free hunting for a while?


I usually follow my orders but I will investigate contacts en route evne if the are a bit out of the way. If I get a really horrible objective like Photo Recon of Hiroshima I'll just ignore it and go off cruising. (Lost 2 subs in there)

There is also the option when finding a convoy or Task Force to radio in and recieve additional orders. Sink the enemy battleships or the like. However you are as likely to get "good Find, will assign other assets" which is a bit of a bummer. Although I don't think you get penalised for ignoring these orders.

[Rockin Robbins]

Thanks Rockin, just one more thing. Why you said that when i cmomplete the objectives i should go back to port. What if i do some free hunting for a while?




P.S. In Sh3 the TDC didint assume that you do the fast 90 aproach. You could find a solution at any angle the then the optics updated the tdc as the bearing to target changed.
Any good tutorial for 100% realism?
WernerSobe's videos are the best! They will not only teach you manual targeting, they will get you excited about it!

You can go free hunting if you want. I just go back to port when I'm out of torpedoes and end the cruise. Then you get the medals, promotions, maybe a new boat out of construction or a refit. It's all the luck of the draw and the more times you draw from the pile the higher your odds of scoring the good stuff. That argues for short cruises as long as you have fulfilled your objective.