One more question...

[Penelope_Grey]

Sorry and then I will stop asking! I promise. ;)

Surface attacks, what is the verdict on doing them in SH4? How close can you get on the surface at night before you are seen?

[Ducimus]

I wont give you a definative answer (cause i dont want to be misleading), but this varies on mods. I can tell you that max visual distance for the AI at night, is a little more then half its max visual distance during the day.

In TM, i have unit types with their own visual nodes.
Escorts see farther then merchants.
Warships see farther then escorts
Planes see farther then warships.

They all dont share one visual node, they have their own. This means that your night surface approch will be shorter, or farther, based on unit type.

An unescorted merchant, you can probably get close enough to count how many heads are walking around on the deck. An escorted mercant, not as close. The merchant might not see you at 3,000 yards, but its escort might.

[-Pv-]

In stock game I've been able to get close to 1000 yards at night in rough weather to unescorted merchants. I've yet to get much below 4000 with alert and expert escorts as closest contacts. A lot depends on the makup of the convoy, your speed and angle and you never know for sure.
-Pv-

[Mush Martin]

Sorry and then I will stop asking! I promise. ;)

Surface attacks, what is the verdict on doing them in SH4? How close can you get on the surface at night before you are seen?
I will give you a definitive answer

I have in my first career game made two surface
engagements so far using a normal sub.

mixed results the first was against a wounded duck
that was still manned after a torpedo hit and we
exchanged fire for about two minutes at three quarters
of a mile in the dark (1/4 moon , clouds)
I took no hits while not even maneuvering for evasive purposes
and the target went down within three minutes of the beginning
of the engagement. this target was not on fire but slowing and
down by the bow's when we came up

the second engagement was with a med modern european
and after expending ten thats right count 'em ten freakin torpedos
on this powder puff. I had zero hits. (dont say it.)
so in the spirit of the thing we decided to battle surface and engage
because we had such good luck the first time this time we stood off
a half mile and exchanged shots. for the first two minutes all seemed
normal, the Deckgunners were working steadily but putting a few
too many short. his deckgunners had me quickly and were seeming
to be improving much faster than mine I could tell because as I finally
lit off a little of his deck cargo for some light six of my guys were wounded

we spent the next ten minutes doing a quick refresher course on
the reasons and techniques of evasive maneuvering and disengagement.

My guys were all ok and we got back to pearl fine but still...........

My definitive answer on surface engagements.
Still a good way to show a girl a good time.

Regards PG
MM:arrgh!:

[jdkbph]

I think the bottom line is you are NOT going to be able to do some of the things Dick O'Kane described in "Clear the Bridge"...

...and I don't think it necessarily has to do with visual detection ranges only. The "confusion element" doesn't seem to be accounted for. Once detected, the enemy's C3I seems to be perfect.

JD

[AVGWarhawk]

I can give you one tactic for surfaced attack.....go in hull down. They seem to miss you all the time. I know you know the decks-awash deal with the uboats and it is pretty much the same here. I attempted a few surface attack and was detected just about 100% of the time. I decided on hull down and it is like they look right over you at the horizon all the time. But, those times I was detected while completely surfaced I was coming in at 21 kts...;)....ok, I was hot rodding the boat. So I can see why I was detected. Coming in slow and low seems to be the best.

The hardest part here is determining what you are up against. DD can be dumb as a box of rocks or an elite killing machine who will not stop until you are dead:dead: (Terminator Style). So, you never know what you will get when approaching escorted merchants. One aspect of the game I like. I do not know if you are running RFB that has Peto longer evasion mod but the sub hunters are lethal as they get. The minelayers are no fun either. First time I had a sub hunter I was slammed to the bottom and never returned. I tried the same senerio again and spent a better part of an hour twisting and turning to loose the darn thing.


...and I don't think it necessarily has to do with visual detection ranges only. The "confusion element" doesn't seem to be accounted for. Once detected, the enemy's C3I seems to be perfect.


Not true. If you are around the convoy and detected, they scatter like cockroaches when the light is turned on. They will continue to do this if they know you are around. They will fire off the weapons wildly. This will continue until you are not detected anymore. They then resume their course. Get inside and the DD get very confused and it becomes like a shooting gallery.

[Rockin Robbins]

By the way, Penelope, ask away! You ask the questions others have but don't dare to ask themselves.:up:

I just had an all-night battle with a convoy of two tankers, a medium split freighter, some other merchie and five escorts. It was a clear night, broken clouds, 10 kt winds maximum. I approached a tanker being led by a minesweeper from their port side with decks awash (indicated 30' keel depth on my Balao class sub) on main engines. I approached to 3200 yards and lost my nerve, electing to take two shots, which both missed. After they missed I shot a third, from about 3000, which incinerated the tanker.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Cruise%2014%20Formosa%20again/SH4Img2008-01-11_205927_066.jpg
That looks like it's closer than 3000 yards to me. But a two minute run at 46 kt is about a mile and a half. Each five small marks on the TDC is one degree. Using the real length of the tanker and a little trig we should be able to work out the range indepedently. No matter--it's a successful surface attack--the first I've seen documented in the SH4 part of SUBSIM!

Here's another part of the answer to Ducimus' poll: what is the external camera good for. Documentation. Anyone can CLAIM to do a surface attack. A screenshot like this one proves it took place. Oh.....that's not the external camera?...the external camera wouldn't have the validating information?........never mind.

Oh, yeah, Silent Hunter 4 patch 1.4, Trigger Maru latest version, RSRD, Natural Sinking Mechanics, two turtle doves and a partridge in a pear tree.

[AVGWarhawk]

You stated the same I did RR...hull down brother:up::rock: Low and slow!!!

[SteamWake]

Sorry and then I will stop asking! I promise. ;)

Surface attacks, what is the verdict on doing them in SH4? How close can you get on the surface at night before you are seen?

Not as close as you should be able to.

Regardless of light (moon, clouds) condition, sea state, profile presented the enemy always pick you up before your within a resonable range.

Trust me on a moonless night your lucky to see the end of your boat with no artifical lighting.

Must have been that early super effective radar... :doh:

[Rockin Robbins]

Not as close as you should be able to.

Regardless of light (moon, clouds) condition, sea state, profile presented the enemy always pick you up before your within a resonable range.

Trust me on a moonless night your lucky to see the end of your boat with no artifical lighting.

Must have been that early super effective radar... :doh:

Knew that was coming! Too bad I ran out of nerve early and fired. We still don't know how close I could have come.

[mookiemookie]

Sorry and then I will stop asking! I promise. ;)

Surface attacks, what is the verdict on doing them in SH4? How close can you get on the surface at night before you are seen?
Not as close as you should be able to.

Regardless of light (moon, clouds) condition, sea state, profile presented the enemy always pick you up before your within a resonable range.

Trust me on a moonless night your lucky to see the end of your boat with no artifical lighting.

Must have been that early super effective radar... :doh:

Agreed. I'd love to be able to get right up in them and mix it up like I've read about Fluckey and O'Kane doing, but unfortunately it's not to be unless someone mods it. My impression is that being able to get in to about 1500-2000 yards away was pretty common.

[AVGWarhawk]

Go in hull down and you can get that close.

[Ducimus]

The inheirant problem, if i remember correctly as it was explained to me, is that at night, the max visual distance of the AI, is 60% of what it is during the day.(edit: and i think this is hardcoded, like alot of other things in this game :roll: )

which means if a unit has a 9,000 KM max distance, it means it can see 5400 KM at night. After that point, weather and enviormental variables come into play, and your looking at distance of around 3,000 KM, give or take 1K.

The only solution that ive been able to find, is to reduce the max distance. ( Ie, 60% of a smaller distance = you get closer to ship) Unfortunatly, this effects daytime performance, so theres only so much you can do.

The solution is probably in creating larger waves or increasing the wave factor (in addition to adding extra visual nodes by unit type) . However, larger waves are a problem in SH4, because thigns like to blow up, sink, or submarines stop recharging their batteries because they think their submerged. Increasing the size of the waves, i think might be the anser, but its a HUGE kettle of fish, IF.. IF.. its the answer.

[AVGWarhawk]

It is a shame also that visual is not affected by the color of the sub. As you know, the subs were painted black and could be spotted at night quite easily. When they tried the gray color, subs were very hard to detect visually at night. This would be nice if it was taken into account.

[Powerthighs]

and your looking at distance of around 3,000 KM
:o :o :o

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

With realism mods enabled I'll never figure why anyone in their right minds would want to surface attack. If it's unarmed ships, ok, but DDs? That's suicide. Not only do you give away your location to every Tom, Dick and Beharry but you run the risk of injuring or killing some of your crew. I made that mistake once and a shell hit me hard. I found out later that about half the forward crew were either dead or badly injured.:dead:

[Ducimus]

and your looking at distance of around 3,000 KM
:o :o :o

Give or take 1K.

You could probably be in as close as 2500 meters or so, but the instant you turned on your heel to get out of dodge, said unit with daytime max distance of 9K would see you.

[AVGWarhawk]

With realism mods enabled I'll never figure why anyone in their right minds would want to surface attack. If it's unarmed ships, ok, but DDs? That's suicide. Not only do you give away your location to every Tom, Dick and Beharry but you run the risk of injuring or killing some of your crew. I made that mistake once and a shell hit me hard. I found out later that about half the forward crew were either dead or badly injured.:dead:

Night time attack...certainly...day time...no.

[Mush Martin]

With realism mods enabled I'll never figure why anyone in their right minds would want to surface attack. If it's unarmed ships, ok, but DDs? That's suicide. Not only do you give away your location to every Tom, Dick and Beharry but you run the risk of injuring or killing some of your crew. I made that mistake once and a shell hit me hard. I found out later that about half the forward crew were either dead or badly injured.:dead:

To save torpedo consumption on merchies most of the time
their gunners arent that good I was just too close when
I surfaced and :oops: Parallel abeam of them.

I know, please its embarrasing:|\\

[Penelope_Grey]

Well thanks muchly for the replies.... I just well, I think it would be good if you had some kind of indicator a la SH3 to let you know how stealthy you are or you aren't it would come in very handy to help you to learn the finer points quicker.

My motto is experience and theory... and hey, if you don't ask you don't learn.

I wrote SH4 off in the beginning but ater its fourth patch I dont' think its too bad now at all.

For me, attacking on the surface is just instinct now, when its dark I attack surfaced. So you can imagine the shock I had when I did a textbook SH3/GWX style night time approach and then they all of a sudden began zig zagging!

The 2.1 keeps one occupied now. But its nice to be able to learn to play both games properly. :up:

[jdkbph]

...and I don't think it necessarily has to do with visual detection ranges only. The "confusion element" doesn't seem to be accounted for. Once detected, the enemy's C3I seems to be perfect.

Not true. If you are around the convoy and detected, they scatter like cockroaches when the light is turned on. They will continue to do this if they know you are around. They will fire off the weapons wildly. This will continue until you are not detected anymore. They then resume their course. Get inside and the DD get very confused and it becomes like a shooting gallery.

Not my experience at all. The merchies will scatter, but the DDs home in on you like you were shooting off flares and lit up for the grand review.

JD

[AVGWarhawk]

...and I don't think it necessarily has to do with visual detection ranges only. The "confusion element" doesn't seem to be accounted for. Once detected, the enemy's C3I seems to be perfect.

Not true. If you are around the convoy and detected, they scatter like cockroaches when the light is turned on. They will continue to do this if they know you are around. They will fire off the weapons wildly. This will continue until you are not detected anymore. They then resume their course. Get inside and the DD get very confused and it becomes like a shooting gallery.

Not my experience at all. The merchies will scatter, but the DDs home in on you like you were shooting off flares and lit up for the grand review.

JD

Yes, sometime if you get the super elite killers. I have had those and they follow you like you have a rope tied from your stern to their bow:o . Then there are the dumb dumbs who drop DC about 5000 yards off. ;)

[AVGWarhawk]

Here we have it. Hull down. Task force. Close enough. Darn thing detected my torpedoes and hauled butt. I should have set up spread but did not. At any rate, surface attacks can be done. Cruiser is dark in the pic but you can see the bow wake on the left. I suspect I could have pressed in closer without detection. I did save before the attack run so I'm going to see if I can get closer before the final solution is dialed in and firing. Enjoy you dogs of war:rock:



http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/SH4Img2008-01-15_215613_234.jpg

[DrBeast]

Here we have it. Hull down. Task force. Close enough. Darn thing detected my torpedoes and hauled butt. I should have set up spread but did not. At any rate, surface attacks can be done. Cruiser is dark in the pic but you can see the bow wake on the left. I suspect I could have pressed in closer without detection. I did save before the attack run so I'm going to see if I can get closer before the final solution is dialed in and firing. Enjoy you dogs of war:rock:

*snip!*



Don't be surprised if all of a sudden after the reload they spot you much sooner (or later) than before. The distance is not a set value, even if all the parameters are the same, but rather a variable. I've come to think the game rolls a dice after a set distance, something like a Spot Check in D&D. If it fails the roll, you continue on unobserved. If it passes, they got you. This check is being rolled (with increasing odds on the AI's behalf as you get closer), until they finally spot you...and then you grab that d20 and start rolling Saving Throws like crazy! :lol:

[Penelope_Grey]

Hull down???:doh:

[DrBeast]

Hull down???:doh:

Submerged just enough for the hull to be under water, with the conning tower still out of it.

[danlisa]

LOL Pen.:lol:

'Decks Awash'

They do things differently over there.:rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

Here we have it. Hull down. Task force. Close enough. Darn thing detected my torpedoes and hauled butt. I should have set up spread but did not. At any rate, surface attacks can be done. Cruiser is dark in the pic but you can see the bow wake on the left. I suspect I could have pressed in closer without detection. I did save before the attack run so I'm going to see if I can get closer before the final solution is dialed in and firing. Enjoy you dogs of war:rock:

*snip!*


Don't be surprised if all of a sudden after the reload they spot you much sooner (or later) than before. The distance is not a set value, even if all the parameters are the same, but rather a variable. I've come to think the game rolls a dice after a set distance, something like a Spot Check in D&D. If it fails the roll, you continue on unobserved. If it passes, they got you. This check is being rolled (with increasing odds on the AI's behalf as you get closer), until they finally spot you...and then you grab that d20 and start rolling Saving Throws like crazy! :lol:
A crap shoot is how it should be. If we know the set value all the time, you begin to play like you know the set value. That is no fun. So, I kept rolling the dice getting closer and closer to a good solution for firing. Always in the back of you mind, will the see me in the next 5 yards???? Definitely a crap shoot when they did the actual thing. As you can see I'm low and slow. Seems to work:D Anyway, I pulled the plug. They were alerted to me. I stopped playing after that. Reloading my save and attempt to get closer tonight!

[AVGWarhawk]

Hull down???:doh:

Hehe.....you need to get out more often:D. As noted, hull down=desks awash. Welcome to the US Navy:D.

[DrBeast]

A crap shoot is how it should be. If we know the set value all the time, you begin to play like you know the set value. That is no fun. So, I kept rolling the dice getting closer and closer to a good solution for firing. Always in the back of you mind, will the see me in the next 5 yards???? Definitely a crap shoot when they did the actual thing. As you can see I'm low and slow. Seems to work:D

Gameplay-wise, yes, that's how it should be. It's when you're trying to test something out that it can become quite a nuisance! You end up repeating the same test over and over again to have enough samples to make the test results statistically correct (cause when I test I treat it as if it were an experiment I'm conducting here at the lab) :damn:

[Nuc]

With realism mods enabled I'll never figure why anyone in their right minds would want to surface attack. :dead:

Possible reasons:

1. So you can attack targets that would otherwise get away becasue of slower
submerged speed.

2. Maneuver faster to attack multiple targets.

3. Get a more accurate fire control solution. (probably not true in the sim but I think it might have been the case in the RW)

Is it worth the risk? that's both a RW and sim decision.

[mookiemookie]

With realism mods enabled I'll never figure why anyone in their right minds would want to surface attack. If it's unarmed ships, ok, but DDs? That's suicide. Not only do you give away your location to every Tom, Dick and Beharry but you run the risk of injuring or killing some of your crew.

Well if it's true realism, you'd attack on the surface at night as you wouldn't be able to see anything using your periscope. You could get in and get out in the resulting confusion without giving away your position. DD's gun effective gunnery range was about 2000 yards from what I've read, so it could be done, and it was done. That's realism. ;)

[Penelope_Grey]

LOL Pen.:lol:

'Decks Awash'

They do things differently over there.:rotfl:

They do yes. Philistines all of them! :rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

LOL Pen.:lol:

'Decks Awash'

They do things differently over there.:rotfl:
They do yes. Philistines all of them! :rotfl:

Yes, we do it with air conditioning, refrigerated foods, showers, radar and at 21 kts :rotfl:

[Penelope_Grey]

you still surface attack like a bunch a pussies though. :arrgh!:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

you still surface attack like a bunch a pussies though. :arrgh!:

Penny, Penny, Penny! :huh:

[Mush Martin]

you still surface attack like a bunch a pussies though. :arrgh!:
:arrgh!::arrgh!::arrgh!::arrgh!::arrgh!::arrgh!::a rrgh!::arrgh!:

[AVGWarhawk]

you still surface attack like a bunch a pussies though. :arrgh!:


My goodness, I do not feel like a bunch of cats.

[danlisa]

My goodness, I do not feel like a bunch of cats.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Brilliant!

[Penelope_Grey]

And on that note I best get myself back in the U-Boat.:yep: Before I cause the Fleet Boats to relocate to the Altlantic... we got enough problems with the british as it is!

But I will say during this brief... how shall we say... "Student exchange?" I didn't notice any wipe your feet mats at the bottom of the hatch though for when the watch crew come down... and you think you are more advanced than U-Boats?

BAH!

*Scurries back into her U-Boat.*

[Kpt. Lehmann]

*Scurries back into her U-Boat.*

... to find Kpt. Lehmann handing her a potato peeler.

Rule #4635: Thou shalt not incite riots in the SH4 forums.

Fritz is waiting for you in the galley. Its onion day.:arrgh!:

[Penelope_Grey]

Rule #4635?????

I thought they only went up to 4400. :hmm: I must have missed the memo... whoops!

I wouldn't say Iw as inciting a riot... just having a bit of old fashioned fun:up: Besides they know Im only joking.

and I aint peeling them onions... ask Avon Lady or somebody cause this is one woman who knows where her place is not and that aint in the galley! :rotfl:

[Mush Martin]

:arrgh!:Give errrrrr the dull peelerrrr skipper.

Torpedos at twenty paces next time,
(*) ,
no!
really!......You know you should have
told me that last time out XO.

Ok torpedos at 1500 paces nextime
wolfenfrau. and you can pick the boat.

M father of the duck o doom

[AVGWarhawk]

I wouldn't say Iw as inciting a riot... just having a bit of old fashioned fun:up: Besides they know Im only joking.
Exactly! But.........I'll pit my 4 Fairbanks at 2600hp each against the old cranking billy goats in your engine room any day!!!!:nope: Eat my wake! :rotfl::rotfl:

[Penelope_Grey]

I wouldn't say Iw as inciting a riot... just having a bit of old fashioned fun:up: Besides they know Im only joking.
Exactly! But.........I'll pit my 4 Fairbanks at 2600hp each against the old cranking billy goats in your engine room any day!!!!:nope: Eat my wake! :rotfl::rotfl:

Oh is it?

Well I'll pit my Krupp steel pressure hull against your empty beer can pressure hull any day. :p

[Mush Martin]

Tench Class

[ReallyDedPoet]

I wouldn't say Iw as inciting a riot... just having a bit of old fashioned fun:up: Besides they know Im only joking.
Exactly! But.........I'll pit my 4 Fairbanks at 2600hp each against the old cranking billy goats in your engine room any day!!!!:nope: Eat my wake! :rotfl::rotfl:
Oh is it?

Well I'll pit my Krupp steel pressure hull against your empty beer can pressure hull any day. :p

We'll see how well you will do when the add-on arrives :yep:, can you say a little " Pacific vs. Atlantic MP ".
Seriously though, it may be fun :arrgh!:


RDP

[AVGWarhawk]

Tench Class


Yes, the thick hull Tench:rock:. Nothing but the finest steel ever to grace the ocean. Anyway Penelope, I'll pit our curried duck on rice and banana bread budding against your hard tack meats swinging from the pipes anyday of the week. Six week old Bananas and rotten eggs. Good Lord, it is not Iron Coffins, it is Iron Stomachs on those boats:rotfl:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Tench Class


Yes, the thick hull Tench:rock:. Nothing but the finest steel ever to grace the ocean. Anyway Penelope, I'll pit our curried duck on rice and banana bread budding against your hard tack meats swinging from the pipes anyday of the week. Six week old Bananas and rotten eggs. Good Lord, it is not Iron Coffins, it is Iron Stomachs on those boats:rotfl:

Vee haf decided unanimously!

You ville surface your boot und surrender zee ice-cream machines at vonce!

Eef you fail to comply vith zee orderss... you veel be shot at dawn! Vee haf vays to make you surrender zee ice cream machines... yoo seely Amerikaners!

You have five minutes to comply.

Schnell!!! :stare:

<sneeze>

[Gunner]

you still surface attack like a bunch a pussies though. :arrgh!:

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Surface attack with Pig Boat. Notice Hull Up :D

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z93/dhuget/DDBattle.jpg

[AVGWarhawk]

You ville surface your boot und surrender zee ice-cream machines at vonce!

No problem we will have even trade for German beer:D:D:D:D

[kylesplanet]

You ville surface your boot und surrender zee ice-cream machines at vonce!

No problem we will have even trade for German beer:D:D:D:D

I'm for that!!
:()1:

[Sailor Steve]

LOL Pen.:lol:

'Decks Awash'

They do things differently over there.:rotfl:
They do yes. Philistines all of them! :rotfl:

Yes, we do it with air conditioning, refrigerated foods, showers, radar and at 21 kts :rotfl:
I'm sorry I came late to this little contretemps, but I feel I must point out to the philistines that we do not do that differently over here. It's "decks awash" here as well. "Hull down" is a tank driver term, and unnacceptable in any man's (or woman's) navy.

So there.:sunny:

[Penelope_Grey]

Hey RDP that is a bloody good show!

That would be awesome. IXD2 vs a Gato or something like that in MP. Wow. I actually never thought of that...!

Now we all have something to really look forward to with this add on! :rock:

[Penelope_Grey]

Tench Class

Yes, the thick hull Tench:rock:. Nothing but the finest steel ever to grace the ocean. Anyway Penelope, I'll pit our curried duck on rice and banana bread budding against your hard tack meats swinging from the pipes anyday of the week. Six week old Bananas and rotten eggs. Good Lord, it is not Iron Coffins, it is Iron Stomachs on those boats:rotfl:

LOL Ok ok ok! You win! Better eating... and hygeine... and smell I expect.

[Ducimus]

That would be awesome. IXD2 vs a Gato or something like that in MP. Wow. I actually never thought of that...!

Now we all have something to really look forward to with this add on! :rock:

Between useable hydrophones while on the surface, combined with our superior radar capability, we'd have ya pegged with all the target data wed need from 20 KM's off. Add in our superior firepower, well... you dont stand a chance! :rotfl: Well, that is, if the torpedos dont malfunction. :roll:

[kylesplanet]

Tench Class

Yes, the thick hull Tench:rock:. Nothing but the finest steel ever to grace the ocean. Anyway Penelope, I'll pit our curried duck on rice and banana bread budding against your hard tack meats swinging from the pipes anyday of the week. Six week old Bananas and rotten eggs. Good Lord, it is not Iron Coffins, it is Iron Stomachs on those boats:rotfl:

LOL Ok ok ok! You win! Better eating... and hygeine... and smell I expect.

I still want your beer!!:()1: :()1:

[Penelope_Grey]

Its not the size of the dog in the fight Ducimus... tis the size of the fight in the dog. ;)

And a dog is a sub-species of the Grey Wolf... and Type IX's are my speciality... nobody better make the mistake of ruling me out in a MP game. ;):arrgh!::arrgh!:

[Ducimus]

Its not the size of the dog in the fight Ducimus... tis the size of the fight in the dog. ;)

And a dog is a sub-species of the Grey Wolf... and Type IX's are my speciality... nobody better make the mistake of ruling me out in a MP game. ;):arrgh!::arrgh!:

LOL, you greatly underestimate my knowledge of the type 9 uboat me thinks young padawan! I coined the first references to any "type IX club". :arrgh!: And ya know, A standard gato can blech for the same volume a type 9 can belch and fart combined! Then we can still bring our ass around and fart in your general direction for the same volume you can belch! :rotfl:

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Could some ask this guy not to ask any more questions? Geez, this is a long thread on this subject!:rotfl:

[Fincuan]

For me, attacking on the surface is just instinct now, when its dark I attack surfaced. So you can imagine the shock I had when I did a textbook SH3/GWX style night time approach and then they all of a sudden began zig zagging!

The 2.1 keeps one occupied now. But its nice to be able to learn to play both games properly. :up:

I do lots night attacks myself, usually shadowing a convoy for a full day just to attack at night, and don't find it impossible. I agree that it's almost impossible to do if the escorts are plenty in numbers and conveniently(or inconveniently what comes to the sub) positioned, but with three or less escorts you can usually pull it off. If it's three escorts, then one is usually at the point and the rest on both sides. If the side escorts are situated so far forward that I can't expect to sneak in between them and the point man, then I'll stay at the convoys 10 or 2 o'clock until the guy on my side of the convoy drops back to do a sweep(they do this every few hours) and then charge in to the convoys now unprotected flank. Escaping on the surface is a bit trickier, but even if you have to dive you get a good head start against the DDs, and won't get caught at periscope depth.

[AVGWarhawk]

LOL Pen.:lol:

'Decks Awash'

They do things differently over there.:rotfl:
They do yes. Philistines all of them! :rotfl:

Yes, we do it with air conditioning, refrigerated foods, showers, radar and at 21 kts :rotfl:
I'm sorry I came late to this little contretemps, but I feel I must point out to the philistines that we do not do that differently over here. It's "decks awash" here as well. "Hull down" is a tank driver term, and unnacceptable in any man's (or woman's) navy.

So there.:sunny:

The term hull-down describes the situation where the upper part of a vessel or vehicle is visible, but the main, lower body hull is not; the opposite term hull-up describes the situation where all of the body is visible.


Mostly this is fitting were the curvature of the earth does not allow the hull to be seen but the mast and rigging can be seen.

But yes, normally used to describe armored vehicles.

[Sailor Steve]

Dad-blasted frag-a-maggot know-it-all show-off!:rotfl:

You're right. I had forgotten about the distance thingy. "Hull down" is indeed used to descibe a ship too far away to see the waterline. Or the hull. Or the superstructure. Any further than that the proper term is "smoke on the horizon".

[DrBeast]

Dad-blasted frag-a-maggot know-it-all show-off!:rotfl:

You're right. I had forgotten about the distance thingy. "Hull down" is indeed used to descibe a ship too far away to see the waterline. Or the hull. Or the superstructure. Any further than that the proper term is "smoke on the horizon".

Hm...so "Smoke on the water" only applies to burning casinos...? :rotfl: