"New" scope on the way

[M. Sarsfield]

We have a new periscope coming to the Batfish in the near future. I took the huge periscope manual home with me to read over. We're trying to see if we can swap parts out with the scopes in the boat and maybe get one of the optics working again. Apparently water leaked into the scopes and damaged the magnification mechanisms.

[shoot-kill-win]

Where are you guys getting the scope from? That is going to be awesome, are you going to replace the whole scope, or just switch out parts from the scope that is coming?

[AVGWarhawk]

Good question. Are you replacing the whole scope? If so, start looking up a crane company now!

[shoot-kill-win]

Right now the scopes are being supported by metal beams, and one of the subvets told me that to get the periscopes to their raised position, they had to get the water company to blast over 400psi of water in order to get the scopes up and the beams in place.

[M. Sarsfield]

I think they are using it for spare parts, but they never really said what their intentions were. I informed them that the average scope weighs about 2000 pounds.

[AVGWarhawk]

I believe the Torsk scopes were craned up. Currently they are chained to the ceiling (ob scope) and the attack scope is blocked with wood under it. We can still spin it around etc.

[M. Sarsfield]

The Pampanito had some hydraulics company donate time and parts in order to get their periscopes housings operational. Of course, her machinery works, too. I don't think we're going to bother with too many mechanical devices on this boat.

[shoot-kill-win]

I think they are using it for spare parts, but they never really said what their intentions were. I informed them that the average scope weighs about 2000 pounds.

Where is the scope coming from? I can't wait to see a working scope.

[M. Sarsfield]

I forget where the scope is coming from. I think it's an observation scope and the museum would like to get one of them working on the boat.

I have been reviewing the hydraulic system for the scopes and I think that it will be a major project whether we replace the scopes with a crane or try to get the hydraulics working, raise the scopes under power, and then repair the observation scope while it's installed. Right now both of our scopes are propped up.

I told Rick that probably the higher priority at this point is to restore power to the circuit panels in the control room, since a lot of boat functions are routed through there. Once that happens, things like a working 1MC, radar, hydraulics, etc. have a better chance of becoming a reality.

It would be nice if a local hydraulics company donated their time to restoring our hydraulics, but I'm not holding my breath.

[shoot-kill-win]

Yea, we probably should restore power to the circuit board before anything else, it is too bad that Dick Fogle (a WWII sub vet) passed away last fall, since he was an electricians mate, he would be a real help.

[shoot-kill-win]

It would be nice if a local hydraulics company donated their time to restoring our hydraulics, but I'm not holding my breath.

Give that task to Rod Mish down there, he is kind of the greeter guy, and good at talking to people, so im sure he could get it done.

[M. Sarsfield]

I think one of the other vets that I met at the meeting in January is also an electricians mate. He's the one that told me that the wiring in the equipment is very stiff and "crunchy" because it's covered in asbestos. I thought it was mainly due to dry rot, but was glad to hear that the wiring would not catch fire, if and when we power everything up in the 1MC stack.

[AVGWarhawk]

Have you guys located the tubes for the 1MC you were looking for? As far as the hydraulics, major undertaking but it can be done. We were fortunate to find a hydraulic pump on a ship strip. The con in the Torsk needs a lot of work.

[M. Sarsfield]

I found a few suppliers for the tubes. Very easy to obtain and very cheap for the most part. The fun part will be replacing all of the capacitors. :huh:

As far as I could tell when I was in the pump room our machinery appeared to be 95% - 99% intact. One of the pumps looked like it was missing a small cover, but it could have been laying on one of the nearby work benches. We probably need to make an assessment of that system in time to loot parts from the USS Trout when she becomes available for scrounging. It would also behoove us to keep an eye on the Clamagore to see if the Navy takes her back at some point. Her equipment will probably be more valuable than the Trout's due to not being left to rot for 35 years in mothballs.

[shoot-kill-win]

We definatley need to get more lights put up in places, because when I was in the pump room, I had to use my cell phone as light to walk aound in there. We need to take a look at the motor room, and see what it is like, or has Rick already done that?

[M. Sarsfield]

There are a few lights in the pump room that adequately light it, but it does need a few more bulbs. You have to turn the lights on once you get down there. There's a switch panel near the ladder.

I haven't been in the motor room, yet. Rick has been down there lots of times. The motor room is useless to us as far as getting the hydraulics and electronics running in the control room/conning tower. The hydraulic pump and motor are located under the control room and the power more than likely comes from one of the switch panels above... or we can rig it up to do so.

The maneuvering room and motor room are tied into the diesel engines and batteries (which no longer exist). It's basically an electrical sub station that determined if power came from the generators or batteries and what motors to send it to, as well as other shipboard equipment. The control room has two A/C busses that we can tap directly into from the museum, essentially bypassing the maneuvering room altogether. We might have to disconnect the lines going between the maneuvering room and control room, so that we don't back-feed a generator and cause a fire.

[shoot-kill-win]

Yea. When Rick and I were in the Pump room it was the first time he had been down there so we were just looking at how things were. Im sure he has found alot more stuff since then.

[X15]

There are a few lights in the pump room that adequately light it, but it does need a few more bulbs. You have to turn the lights on once you get down there. There's a switch panel near the ladder.

I haven't been in the motor room, yet. Rick has been down there lots of times. The motor room is useless to us as far as getting the hydraulics and electronics running in the control room/conning tower. The hydraulic pump and motor are located under the control room and the power more than likely comes from one of the switch panels above... or we can rig it up to do so.

The maneuvering room and motor room are tied into the diesel engines and batteries (which no longer exist). It's basically an electrical sub station that determined if power came from the generators or batteries and what motors to send it to, as well as other shipboard equipment. The control room has two A/C busses that we can tap directly into from the museum, essentially bypassing the maneuvering room altogether. We might have to disconnect the lines going between the maneuvering room and control room, so that we don't back-feed a generator and cause a fire.


Does Batfish have a rectifier? The Hydraulic system motor, and everything else (EXCEPT the lighting, interior communications, radio, radar and sonar systems), runs on 145 to 345 volts DC. Attempting to run any of those systems on 120 volt AC will result in at best chattering contactors, and quite possibly serious equipment damage and or fire.

I would suggest looking at raising the scopes with a hand pump connected directly to the hydraulic cylinders themselves. If you only intend to raise them once, I would avoid the extra work on getting the rest of the system operational.

[M. Sarsfield]

Most of the equipment in the control room runs on 120 VAC from the circuit boards in that room - the frequency is mainly 60Hz with a few exceptions. We will have to see where we need to attach shore power to the A/C Bus #1 located in the control room switch/circuit boards to get the right results, since we are no longer converting the power from the generators. We have a lot of electrical schematics and we're in the process of getting more from the Torsk.

If the hydraulic motor requires a different voltage and frequency, we could always install a transformer and anything else needed to make the conversion or maybe use a 120V motor in place of the existing one.

The periscopes were raised with high pressure water a long time ago and then metal posts were placed under them in the conning tower to keep them raised. As a museum, we're trying to restore equipment to its original functionality.

I'm wondering if they pumped the water into the hydraulic lines or used some other means. My idea is to disconnect a lot of the hydraulic lines to the dive planes, steering transmission, outer torpedo doors, etc. and replace the ones needed to operate the scopes.

[X15]

Take a look at Chapter 4 of the Submarine Electrical Installations book of the Fleet Type Submarine Training Manual for details on the electrical auxiliary equipment.

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/elect/chap4.htm

But suffice to say, you will need a 250 Volt Direct Current rectifier to energize the appropriate switch boards.


As for the hydraulic system, when we got Hornet and started work on restoring the aircraft elevators we quickly found out that the hydraulic fluid already in the system was rather caustic stuff. That fluid was likely from the 1960's, I believe the fluid used in WWII was probably more dangerous, as well as being fairly flammable. Please use appropriate caution.

[M. Sarsfield]

...you will need a 250 Volt Direct Current rectifier to energize the appropriate switch boards.


X15, Chapter 4 is for the switch boards in the maneuvering room. According to the I.C. / Alarms Chapter, high voltage alternating current was supplied to A/C Bus #1 from the main generators or to A/C Bus #2 from the back-up generator. Both A/C busses are located in the I.C. Switch Board, which is located in the control room (con). The I.C. switch board then converts the power to 120 VAC 60Hz and also I think 45Hz, depending on the application. From what I have read, the 1MC needs 120 VAC/60 Hz to operate. Same with the radio gear in the radio shack. Lights, alarms, engine telegraphs and many other con room equipment ran on 120 VAC and were powered through the I.C. switch board.

A long time ago, the museum decided to disconnect the lighting from the I.C. panel and wire it directly to shore power. Very little conversion was required, since it used the same voltage and current as house power. Some day we might switch it back to the way it was.

You are correct that other parts of the boat use oddball voltages and current and if we ever decide to get the ice cream maker going, for example, then we'll have to rig up some electronics to convert the power for those applications. I'm assuming that the hydraulic pump located under the control room (pump room) also uses the 120 VAC from the I.C. board, since it's an 18hp motor, but it could be directly taking its power from the maneuvering room. I haven't studied the hydraulic system enough to figure that out.

I'll ask the museum if any of the original hydraulic fluid is still in the system. They said that they used pressure from fire hoses to get the periscopes up to their present position. That tells me that some or all of the system was bled before pumping water into the lines.

[X15]

Mark,

I'm unclear as what you're referring to when you mention high voltage AC, the main and auxiliary generators produce Direct Current, in order to charge the batteries and run the main motors without the need for any conversion.

The pumps should be supplied from the Forward Auxiliary Switchboard, the Pampanito virtual tour has this to say about the board:

Forward Auxiliary Switchboard: Located forward of the I.C. Switchboard on the starboard side [of the con]. This supplies 250 VDC to the many auxiliary motors in the forward half of the submarine. The auxiliary motors operate compressors, pumps, heaters, blowers and other high power equipment. It is supplied by the forward battery, auxiliary engine, or through a bus tie from the after battery.

[M. Sarsfield]

I meant high voltage direct current. My bad.

Yeah, after talking with the USS Torsk electrical guru, he said that he thought the hydraulic pump needed 250 VDC. I think the auxiliary switch board also runs the gryo compasses. He said that they were still waiting for the City of Baltimore to hook up their 240 lines.

So, it looks like we'll have to run 120 VAC and converted 240 VDC power to the con to get a lot of this stuff running, again.

[X15]

Ok, I'm glad we're on the same page.

I know from following Razorbacks progress that they put a 250 VDC rectifier in one of their battery compartments, and I believe that Pampanito is setup the same way.

[M. Sarsfield]

We'll have to do the same, then. We'll probably put it down in the pump room, since we plan on converting the aft battery into a work shop and possibly the forward battery into a rec. room for youth groups.

I've started picking the Torsk crew's brain for how they specifically have things hooked up. No sense in reinventing the wheel.

[M. Sarsfield]

Do you know roughly the size, weight, and cost of the rectifiers that Pampanito and Razorback used? I visited several websites of suppliers and some of those cabinets are pretty big. I would think that stepping up the voltage from 220 to 250 and converting it from AC to DC wouldn't require a large piece of equipment, but I'm not an electronics guru. I know enough to be dangerous. :yep:

[X15]

Here's the posts from the AIMM blog on Razorback:

http://aimmatnlr.blogspot.com/2005/07/rectifying-situation.html

http://aimmatnlr.blogspot.com/2005/07/work-continues.html

I would imagine that Pampanitos unit is a similar size, but you would have to get a hold of Len Vaden, her chief electrician.

[M. Sarsfield]

The first photo looks similar (in size) to a lot of other rectifiers that I have seen advertised, but this one was for running HVAC, which needs a lot of juice, and it looked pretty vintage. It probably just barely fit through the stairwell.

[X15]

Yeah, being a California native I'm really only familiar with west coast weather, and we certainly don't need air conditioning here. Working ventilation blowers are nice to have though, if only to clear the air the morning after a youth liveaboard.

[M. Sarsfield]

LOL! Yeah, getting rid of the funk is a bonus. :) They installed HVAC on the Batfish, but no heater. So, it's like being in an icebox in the winter. The wool blankets come in handy that time of year.

I sent out a few emails to companies selling modern rectifiers to see what the dimensions and price would be for a 250 VDC rectifier. Since they are normally used commercially, I would expect it to be somewhat expensive as opposed to something you could buy at Lowe's or Home Depot as a consumer.