SH4 Questions For SH4 Players

[Penelope_Grey]

Right guys, just a few quick questions for the SH4 players if you would be so kind.

Basically I wonder would you be willing to share your thoughts on the S-Class submarines in SH4? These submarines from the few times I have played with them seem to take a tremendous amount of time to recharge their batteries. Though they seem to have much better underwater endurance at higher speed than the larger US subs do.

An S-class can stay under well in excess of 12 hours travelling at 3 knots. Just I am really confused as to why recharging takes so long... is this historically accurate for that class of boat?

And in the main, why do you play as an S-class?

The next thing I want to discuss is weather transition... from what I can tell weather is a let down in both SH3 and 4... Now I know from experience that weather in SH3 is based on a timer... and when you save and exit and reload that timer resets presenting a kind of game exploit in effect, enabling you to have perpetually good weather (when you have it). What system does SH4 employ if different?

Final question I have is where are the best areas in SH4 generally speaking... that is without taking mods into consideration... the player can go to see some action? And is there some kind of visual aid for this... similar to the pullout map in GWX which shows the convoy routs and areas of high naval traffic?

[Mush Martin]

Generally the weather in the campaign layers in shIV are set to change
the weather every five hours if you had a week of typhoon its poor luck
on the other hand you can change that setting in mission editor but
unlike shIII theres about a dozen smaller campaign layers in four so
its twenty minutes work or so and it still wouldnt guarantee anything
except that if you got a typhoon you would keep it for 72 hrs

as for weather variation factors in the campaign layers
other than the weather change timing it seems most
variables are just set to default or unused.

Someone else will be along shortly PG im sure with the campaign map
that has the major shipping routes for the hunting grounds
but if all else fails and your in range then anything
sout of the Bungo strait is a good choice
also the routes bunch up at the entrances to the sea of japan
as its a chokepoint (heavily patrolled though)

as for the S class charging time I dont generally use S class boats
though they have the advantage in the early war of more reliable
torpedos.
MM

[Ducimus]

Right guys, just a few quick questions for the SH4 players if you would be so kind.

Basically I wonder would you be willing to share your thoughts on the S-Class submarines in SH4? These submarines from the few times I have played with them seem to take a tremendous amount of time to recharge their batteries. Though they seem to have much better underwater endurance at higher speed than the larger US subs do.

An S-class can stay under well in excess of 12 hours travelling at 3 knots. Just I am really confused as to why recharging takes so long... is this historically accurate for that class of boat?

And in the main, why do you play as an S-class?


The S class is a WW1 technology boat. It has (or rather had) riveted seams. To me, the S class is the American equivilant to the Germans Type II uboat, only it has 4 torpedo tubes instead of 3. As for the performance of said boat, the recharging times have been bugged on that boat since patch 1.3. It's kind of similar to the old type 21 recharge bug, but not exactly the same thing. ive tried to fix it, but never made any progress on it, and gave up on it. I think the problem to this boat is the battery mulltipier. In Sh3, this multiplier is in the basic.cfg and easily modded. In Sh4, its seemingly hardcoded. If its not hardcoded, then its very well hidden. As sure you've probably guessed, i don't play with the S boats. They were used in the first few years in the war, was the predominate boat used in the aleutian island campaigns operating out of dutch harbor, but they were after a period of time, resigned as school boats. They simply didnt have the range or punch to operate in the pacific theater outside of patrolling the areas north of austrialia.

As an aside , this picture collection might interest you if your into S boats:
http://www.pigboats.com/subs/s-boats.html



The next thing I want to discuss is weather transition... from what I can tell weather is a let down in both SH3 and 4... Now I know from experience that weather in SH3 is based on a timer... and when you save and exit and reload that timer resets presenting a kind of game exploit in effect, enabling you to have perpetually good weather (when you have it). What system does SH4 employ if different?

As far as i can tell, it uses the same weather system as in SH3, but i think in code, some of the variables have been tweaked. Truthfully i can't give a full and complete answer here, i havent been able to run career games long enough to really get an idea of weather trends. From what ive seen, storms and inclimate weather don't occur no where near as much as they did in SH3, and 3 weeks of 15 KT winds don't seem to happen.


Final question I have is where are the best areas in SH4 generally speaking... that is without taking mods into consideration... the player can go to see some action? And is there some kind of visual aid for this... similar to the pullout map in GWX which shows the convoy routs and areas of high naval traffic?

Cant give a definative answer here either. I want to say anywhere near Honsu, at the mouth of the bungo suido area, or maybe in or around the formosa straights.

[The Fishlord]

Also, heading from about Tokyo bay on a S SE bearing, passing just east of the East China Sea is where a task force travels every few days. You can bag some big carriers there.

If you want to go after more harmless (but fat and rewarding) prey then go to the southern area of the East China Sea.

I found it for the first time: The Huge European Passenger Liner! 18 thousand tons of defenseless glory for me to rake in. It was defended by 4 destroyers who I was worked over by but escaped with minimal damage. Fun when that happens.

:sunny:

[ReallyDedPoet]

Final question I have is where are the best areas in SH4 generally speaking... that is without taking mods into consideration... the player can go to see some action? And is there some kind of visual aid for this... similar to the pullout map in GWX which shows the convoy routs and areas of high naval traffic?
Captain Cox did a Pacific Map Pull Down mod that shows the shipping lanes in the Pacific, it is well done and has been updated for 1.4. It is the first link in this thread:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=119026&highlight=mess+hall

SH4 differs from 3 in that you are patrolling specific areas vs. more wide open expanses. The contacts are there, you just have to look a little harder.

Try the late great Dave leovampire Bunnell's ROW Mod, it takes visuals to an ultra-realistic level, you will forget all about the weather woes in the game.

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/2519/tetsrs8.jpg

RDP

[AVGWarhawk]

I'm not really sure on the batteries the S class. It was a antique when they employed them for combat. The fleet boats were on the table and in the works so any type of upgrade for the S class was, for the most part, non-existent. But, the pig boat was used quite a bit in the Asiatic Fleet. Deep breath....I suspect the charging did take a bit of time as the batteries for this boat were not the best. She is like the Type II but even the Type II was way ahead of the S class. Like the German boats, one engine was used to charge the battery while surfaced. But, if the player realizes the S class needs to be nursed concerning the batteries, she can be a nasty little boat. I had one for 5 patrols until I got a sportier model. Lots of tonnage:smug:


The weather in the game IMHO works a bit better than SH3. Yes, it will start the clock over if you save but....the weather changes more frequently and with some regularity. I decided to sit on the bridge at TC X32 to watch what the weather does. I had a blue cloudless sky and over a period of 3 hours the fine wisps of clouds rolled in that turned into overcast skys then into a full fledge rainy day. So, there is some dynamice to the weather and if you are nut who likes to play real time you will see the weather change. All in all, I have not experienced over 5 weeks of rain as I did in SH3.


Action....start in the Asiatic Fleet. You will be closer to the action. If you are playing unmodded traffic, there were be more targets than you care to count. Often you will out of torpedoes before you hit your assigned patrol area....just sinking things on the way. Therefore, modding has been done to handle historical traffic. However it is fun to have a bunch of targets every now and then. Play vanilla for a few patrols and you will see that the traffic needs a good strong mod. Run Silent Run Deep handled this and in darn good fashion. The mod was logically put together with historical traffic and Lurker who created it sends you to logical places for patrols. Now, if a message says there will be a convoy at 110 x 02, please intercept if you are in position to do so does not mean the convoy will fall into your lap, you have to hunt it! Makes for a bit of a challenge and a good time. This is one of the differences between SH3 and SH4. As you know, SH3 just had a grid to patrol. SH4 is moddable to add any mission the modder wants. The mission can be changed while enroute to the assigned patrol area...such as a task force in such and such a spot, go find it and sink it if your close enough. Things of that nature. Lurker did a great job in this respect.


Glad you are giving it a try again....I know you had thrown your hands up in the air with the original release. So did a bunch of others. Right now it is a great game it you let it be.


The S-Class affectionately known as 'The Pig Boat'.



http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/SH4Img2007-12-28_180320_671.jpg

[Gunner]

Run at 5 to 6 knots on surface as much as possible, longer charge time on a Pig Boat consumes extra fuel. I only dive for airplanes, manual sonar check. Done as many as 9 objectives and 4 secondary objectives with some fuel to spare arriving to port. Just finished reading a book by David Jones & Peter Nunan titled, U.S. Subs Down Under { Brisbane, 1942_1945}. After reading this book of stories about the men who commanded and sailed these Sboats, you really can start to appreciate the hardships they endured under tedious conditions.

My Late War SugarBoat with a 5" BowGun and Twin 20MM for those Nasty Kites

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z93/dhuget/pigboat.jpg

[-Pv-]

Go slow and the sub will charge faster. Don't expect too much out of the old Sboats. You will appreciate the fleet boats more after spending valuable time in the SB. The weather works ok. Get yourself some historical convoy and military route maps and patrol along the routes between missions. You will get a lot of targets. Here is a source of maps that have worked for me:
http://www.valoratsea.com/cmbtcht.htm
-Pv-

[Captain Vlad]

Basically I wonder would you be willing to share your thoughts on the S-Class submarines in SH4? These submarines from the few times I have played with them seem to take a tremendous amount of time to recharge their batteries. Though they seem to have much better underwater endurance at higher speed than the larger US subs do.

They're faster underwater than you'd expect from a sub of that era too. They were designed and built prior to the 'fleet boat' doctrine, and with the idea that underwater performance would be more important to a submarine. So perhaps the longer submerged endurance is accurate.

And in the main, why do you play as an S-class?

'Challenge' is an obvious answer, much like 'Why do you play in a Type II' in Silent Hunter III. Thing is though, there are things I really like about Sugar Boats. Though they lack the heavy firepower of the later fleet boats, they're very maneuverable, quick to dive (though their dive depth is lacking), have good underwater speed and good submerged endurance. Early in the war, their 'obsolete' Mark 10's are deadlier than the Mark 14's that are loaded onto fleet boats. They also have a 4-inch deck gun, while fleet boats start out with a 3 inch...a bit of a renown saver early in your career.

I don't know if their smaller size means they're harder to detect with active sonar or visually, but I do know being shrouded by even moderate waves makes me feel stealthier.

The final thing I've noticed is that if you've been playing SH III prior to SH IV, they feel a whole lot like a Type VII U-Boat with much less dive depth. I use them more like my old U-49 on SH III than like the fleet boats I get later...especially since, if you start in the Asiatic theater, much greater dive depth is often useless anyway. Shallow water in them parts.

Final question I have is where are the best areas in SH4 generally speaking... that is without taking mods into consideration... the player can go to see some action? And is there some kind of visual aid for this... similar to the pullout map in GWX which shows the convoy routs and areas of high naval traffic?

Depends on what year you're currently playing it, probably. If you start out in Manila, though, you're guaranteed to see more big nasty warships than you have torpedoes to sink. A little unrealistic (in scale, not theory...), yes, but it can certainly exciting.

After the initial Japanese conquests, I've found that the Solomon Islands are a hot spot in 1942 and 43. Cruising the Bismarck Sea netted me a 100,000 ton patrol with nary a warship on my kill list (hence the others comments about traffic needing looked at perhaps...lots of 10,000 tonners). If you're sailing out of Pearl, the southern coast of Japan is always nice.

[Mush Martin]

Run at 5 to 6 knots on surface as much as possible, longer charge time on a Pig Boat consumes extra fuel. I only dive for airplanes, manual sonar check. Done as many as 9 objectives and 4 secondary objectives with some fuel to spare arriving to port. Just finished reading a book by David Jones & Peter Nunan titled, U.S. Subs Down Under { Brisbane, 1942_1945}. After reading this book of stories about the men who commanded and sailed these Sboats, you really can start to appreciate the hardships they endured under tedious conditions.

My Late War SugarBoat with a 5" BowGun and Twin 20MM for those Nasty Kites

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z93/dhuget/pigboat.jpg

Can you smell my influence in this pic penny?

[Penelope_Grey]

Thanks very much for the info guys! Appreciate it a lot. :up:


However... lol... I doubt an S boat could hold a candle to the type II... all hail the duck!! LOL

When I get some time after the GWX 2.1 build... I think Imight have to pit my skills against the Japanese commanding a world war 1 era craft! :D

[AVGWarhawk]

However... lol... I doubt an S boat could hold a candle to the type II... all hail the duck!! LOL

Ah, read my S class post. No were near the technologically advanced as the Type II. Now you know why the S was a slow battery needy boat;)

If you do get some free time, look up so S class adventures during WW2. There are some good ones!

[SteveW1]

I've found with the RSRDC Mod anywhere from mid 42 in the Asiatic fleet the best hunting grounds to be the Makassar Strait into the Celebes Sea, lots of 10,000 tonners to sink.I like the S Boats, they make you work that little bit harder for your kills with the limited speed (13knots max surfaced) and with no AA gun you really have to dive to avoid the planes instead of going two to two with them.

[Mush Martin]

all hail the duck!! LOL
:D
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/ScreenHunter_004.jpg

:up:

btw the IJN were capable of producing decent systems it was
a doctrinal issue more than anything else that did them in.
it was considered widely to be a type of second class service
to be assigned to an escort instead of a line ship. as far as asw
went. on the other hand the IJN version of a frigate carried
three legitimate d/p guns where as the Fleet destroyers largely
did not. also the escorts were by many accounts tough to sink
due to compartmentalization and machinery dispersal.
they were capable escorts which properly handled could indeed
give you a very bad day.

its in sonars they were weak and moreso in the level of
training developments.
they too as with the RN eventually developed a deep fast
falling DC they didnt as far as I am aware however develop
any forward throwing weapons except IIRC a pre war gun
that fired a minor depth shell.

Their patrol aircraft were leading edge
and their are instances of an escort carrier application

At the outbreak of war IJN subs represented some of the
most diverse in design and capability. it was the fleet doctrine
that prevented them making a better showing. they had
superior sublaunched torpedos too. They certainly were capable of producing bold and capable officers.
and as the saying goes.........

All you need is good men..........
M
all you

[AVGWarhawk]

She looks a bit top heavy there Mush. Must have a some ballast system!!!

[Mush Martin]

Buckmans in the bilge gathering soup:doh:

[Sailor Steve]

However... lol... I doubt an S boat could hold a candle to the type II... all hail the duck!! LOL
Ah, read my S class post. No were near the technologically advanced as the Type II. Now you know why the S was a slow battery needy boat;)

If you do get some free time, look up so S class adventures during WW2. There are some good ones!
Say what? The S-boat was much better: a deck gun, more torpedoes, more chances to screw yourself...:rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

However... lol... I doubt an S boat could hold a candle to the type II... all hail the duck!! LOL
Ah, read my S class post. No were near the technologically advanced as the Type II. Now you know why the S was a slow battery needy boat;)

If you do get some free time, look up so S class adventures during WW2. There are some good ones! Say what? The S-boat was much better: a deck gun, more torpedoes, more chances to screw yourself...:rotfl:

Second look, I still say the S was not as good as the Type II. 10 year older design when originated. Oh, and you have brought this up before, there was no TDC on the S correct? Did the Type II have a TDC? And you are right....more chances to screw yourself:rotfl:

I wonder how the battery technology for the S compared to the Type II?

[Sailor Steve]

Ducimus posted earlier in this thread that in his opinion they were probably similar, at least battery-wise. I would put the S-boats ahead in speed and firepower, but Uboat.net rates the Type IIs with a crush depth of close to 500 feet. If that's correct, they definitely score on that basis. Ability to hide is a good thing.

I was just taking a chance to joke with my remarks. Honestly? I don't know which is better. Game-wise? I love them both.

[AVGWarhawk]

Ducimus posted earlier in this thread that in his opinion they were probably similar, at least battery-wise. I would put the S-boats ahead in speed and firepower, but Uboat.net rates the Type IIs with a crush depth of close to 500 feet. If that's correct, they definitely score on that basis. Ability to hide is a good thing.

I was just taking a chance to joke with my remarks. Honestly? I don't know which is better. Game-wise? I love them both.
I know Steve about the joke.....you are a bright guy and well read. So when you post something contrary to what I have posted I have to take a second look. :up: I would say you know more about shipping then most!

[Ducimus]

Truthfully when i said that i think of the S boat as the type 2 of the pacific, i did so on the following trains of thought:

- Its most definatly not anywhere NEAR an equivlant of a german type 7.
- On the grand scheme of things, compared to other boats in the line up, just like the type 2, it sucks! (my opinion, ive always been into long range far from home patrols, so the these smaller boats never grabbed me)
- I think of both the Type 2, and the S boat, being in the same bin... the refuse bin :rotfl:

I wasnt much on the type 2 in Sh3, and im kinda of the same way with the S boat in Sh4. I realize people love those riveted pig boats, but i just could never get into them.

[Mush Martin]

Truthfully when i said that i think of the S boat as the type 2 of the pacific, i did so on the following trains of thought:

- Its most definatly not anywhere NEAR an equivlant of a german type 7.
- On the grand scheme of things, compared to other boats in the line up, just like the type 2, it sucks! (my opinion, ive always been into long range far from home patrols, so the these smaller boats never grabbed me)
- I think of both the Type 2, and the S boat, being in the same bin... the refuse bin :rotfl:

I wasnt much on the type 2 in Sh3, and im kinda of the same way with the S boat in Sh4. I realize people love those riveted pig boats, but i just could never get into them.


Like he said :yep:

[AVGWarhawk]

I realize people love those riveted pig boats, but i just could never get into them.

Come on, don't you like taking your life (and 42 others) in your hands;)

[Mush Martin]

You can do that just by eating the bread in week six on any sub of the
era, So why not a little comfort and capability.

admittedly the S Boats were faster submerged than you would think.

M

[Gunner]

admittedly the S Boats were faster submerged than you would think.
M

Thats why Sboats are my preferance, Been play'n Sh4 since release date with an Sboat and have no problem with fuel shortage or battery problems. their faster submerged, turn on a dime an give ye a nickel back compared to Fleetboats.:arrgh!:

[AVGWarhawk]

I like the S very much. If you sink something you feel like you accomplished something. Heck, cranking after a task force at 13 kts is not fun but the task force can not beat the speed of my radio. I had a great 5 patrol career in one and then got a fleet boat. The S is a lot of fun.

[Captain Vlad]

- Its most definatly not anywhere NEAR an equivlant of a german type 7.


Game wise, it is. Four forward torpedos, speed on the surface is similar, etc. Hell, the S-class is faster underwater if I remember right. Most of the things that'd make the S-Boat a crappier ride don't show up in Silent Hunter IV.:D

[ReallyDedPoet]

I like the S very much. If you sink something you feel like you accomplished something. The S is a lot of fun.

Yeah, this.
Variety is always nice in a game, taking an S out for a rip can be a hoot :yep:


RDP

[Ducimus]

Type 7 uboat is faster on the surface, carries more torpedos, has a deeper diving depth, and eventually will have more deck armarment.

There really isnt much of a comparision.

[Captain Vlad]

Four forward tubes, surface speed in the same ballpark even if the U-Boat is faster. S-boat is faster underwater. The U-Boat dives deeper, but they both dive fast and turn well. Deck gun is heavier on the S-boat, but the U-Boat has more AA.

In a computer simulation (note I'm not referring to the later S-Boat models with the aft tube and two more fish) where all the S-class deficiences cannot truly come to light, they're in the same ballpark. In real life, you'd obviously take the Type VII for thousands of different reasons.

It's like the SA 80 on some tactical shooters. Real-world, it's a horrible gun. In a simulation, it tends to work quite well since it's problems aren't the kind of thing that tends to be modeled in a computer game.