Anyone else ever feel guilty?

[Col Frost]

The other day, when I sank the Rodney, I couldn't help but feel a pang of guilt...Seeing such a majestic ship sent to the bottom, and all those sailors drowned; maybe it's because I'm English, not sure...but I couldn't help but feel a bit like I needed a drink or three to numb the pain of it all. Am I getting too immersed?
Anyone else ever feel that? :dead:

[STEED]

No, because it will re-spawn when you left the area. :rotfl:

Back from the deep you could say. ;)

[Col Frost]

I feel better already:p

Does that mean that you can sink the same ship more than once in a campaign?

[Sailor Steve]

Yes it does. Just the other day someone reported seeing all three of the two Nelson class ships together in one task force.

[Paajtor]

That sucks, moral-wise lol

[STEED]

I feel better already:p

You mass murdering son of a bitch, not content to send it to the bottom once you want to send back down again, what are you a psychopath?

Bdu really loves you. ;) :rotfl:

[Col Frost]

I feel better already:p

You mass murdering son of a bitch, not content to send it to the bottom once you want to send back down again, what are you a psychopath?

Bdu really loves you. ;) :rotfl:
If I was a woman I would have leaked a tiny dit of wee while I was laughing about that...God I think I really am enjoying this too much:rotfl:

[stew278]

I feel better already:p

Does that mean that you can sink the same ship more than once in a campaign?

I sunk the Hood twice in the same patrol. I encountered it with a task force at 04:00 and sunk it, I ran into in again (alone this time) at 23:00 that same day ~100km away. I sunk it again but of course I didn't get credit the 2nd time. So far I've sunk Hood 3 times in that campaign.

[TomcatMVD]

I feel quite bad about the merchies' cew, having some lifeboats fleeing away form the sinking ship would be nice... it would help that tiny bit of humanity some of us have, anyways... I gues they deserve it for playing on the wrong team:arrgh!:
Regarding DD's or BB's crews, after I read a couple of U-boats sinking reports, and how they would shoot with sidearms at anyone trying to get out of the sub, yeah, they pretty much deserve my merciless hunting.

[Blacklight]

You know.. this can cause problems for you when you get home.
"Yeah ! You know the Nelson ? Well three days ago, I sunk that sucker with one shot !!! You should have seen that thing go up like a fireworks display ! Blew the whole thing apart !! It was incredible ! I'm sure she'll make an EXCELLENT artificial reef for all those fish down there and all the tonnage she's worth ! Man ! I deserve a MEDAL for finding and sinking that ship !! Now how about giving me that renown ?":D

"Oh really ? Then how come we have these reports and these pictures that were taken just an hour ago of "The Nelson" is sitting in port right now taking on supplies ?"

"Ummmm":doh:

[Phobus]

I seem to remember that the Germans sank the Ark Royal about seven times during the last war. I expect that every captain got the iron necklace each time.

[STEED]

I feel better already:p

You mass murdering son of a bitch, not content to send it to the bottom once you want to send back down again, what are you a psychopath?

Bdu really loves you. ;) :rotfl:
If I was a woman I would have leaked a tiny dit of wee while I was laughing about that...God I think I really am enjoying this too much:rotfl:

Laughter is the spice of life. :rotfl:

Now get off your butt and find that ship & sink it. :arrgh!:

[Jimbuna]

I seem to remember that the Germans sank the Ark Royal about seven times during the last war. I expect that every captain got the iron necklace each time.

Classic!! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/c_jane24/Smileys/smilies%202/hsbunchieteef.gif http://imgcash4.imageshack.us/img220/5318/bananariderhz3.gif

[GlobalExplorer]

I must have become completely numbed by playing computer games for more than two decades. When I sink a ship, it has never occured to me that there were people dying. Instead I enjoy with glee the Wagnerian epos that is going on in front of my eyes. Oh to follow the ship go down with the X-cam and imagine how it will get crushed by the pressure. Oh the sweet sound of the bulkheads breaking.

[Blacklight]

Man.. I just had the chance to sink the Ark Royal, but then... as I was waiting for her, this BIG JUICY convoy popped out of nowhere and came into the PERFECT fireing position for me. I used up all my ammunition on that instead.:shifty:

[Jonathan]

I am remebering the line in Das Boot when the 'boot rises to the surface to survey the damage that they had cuased only to see the flame-licked survivors escape into the ocean in hopes of reaching the sub for help. The 'boot's captain and their crew were forced to pull away from the wreck...much to their dismay, because their was nothing that they could do for the stricken crew.

War sucks for both sides sometimes. :shifty:

[Hartmann]

Not really, only sometimes i think about this but i hope that they will have lifeboats to survive, but in rough waters and in the middle of the atlantic...:oops:

Some time i killed with three torpedoes more soldiers at once than using several panzers and artillery in the battleground.

In the mediterranean i´ve found two troop ships scorted by a scort, after i sunk the destroyer and damaged every troop ship with one torpedo , i surfaced and started firing with my 105 mm gun.

imagine the scene... the ships burning in flames, sinking, the lifeboats in the water( i supose it ), the shells exploding in the crowded decks, my 20 mm and 37 AA guns firing at will,

After some minutes the troop ships sunk in the middle of a huge cloud of smoke and fire.

i killed a lot of people but i´m not a murderer.:roll:

[Jonathan]

Us Kaleuns have to sleep at night. So i say whatever I need to.

[yamato9]

I feel quite bad about the merchies' cew, having some lifeboats fleeing away form the sinking ship would be nice... it would help that tiny bit of humanity some of us have, anyways... I gues they deserve it for playing on the wrong team:arrgh!:
Regarding DD's or BB's crews, after I read a couple of U-boats sinking reports, and how they would shoot with sidearms at anyone trying to get out of the sub, yeah, they pretty much deserve my merciless hunting.

OK, i´m not british guy but seeing in some mods how sailors blow up in the air, well maybe this is interesting but also in some aspect of the game is also coold blooded or cruel. Some lifeboats near sinking ship will be realy helpfull.

I´v newer installed mod with DOLPHINS in my game just because same reason.

IN REAL LIFE: Watch on animals,trees and plants, they are true treasure of the world.:yep:

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Hey, this game is not about saving dolphins or people, it's about sinking ships and being sunk. In fact, U-Boots' work was to cause ecological disaster on a huge scale - all this oil, acid, and other crap from sunk ships, sound of blasts that deafened and killed sea animals... But that's the way of war, when man fights he doesn't care a lot.

Care for people and nature in real life, as it's important. But do not moralize too much in game, thus making it unrealistic. I'd like to see the crews sinking, as it would greatly add immersion. I'd also like to see lifeboats for much the same reason. I'd like to have a possibility to choose whether to shoot them in the water or supply with food and escort to the shore, as it would add realism too. There are thousands of games where you shoot people, mass murder them, burn, bomb, gas, tie, beat and so on - why shouldn't we kill the crews then? The U-Boots we are all here for did it on a mass scale. :hmm:

[Jonathan]

I did a poll about 3 weeks ago, and almost everyone said that if there were life boats in the game, that they would let them live and not blow them out of the water if they had the chance to do so. I would not mind seeing lifeboats....it would be kind of sad and cool all at the same time.

I wonder what would happen to them if you just let them sit there and wait for the rescue ship to show up. :hmm:

[yamato9]

Hey, this game is not about saving dolphins or people, it's about sinking ships and being sunk. In fact, U-Boots' work was to cause ecological disaster on a huge scale - all this oil, acid, and other crap from sunk ships, sound of blasts that deafened and killed sea animals... But that's the way of war, when man fights he doesn't care a lot.

Care for people and nature in real life, as it's important. But do not moralize too much in game, thus making it unrealistic. I'd like to see the crews sinking, as it would greatly add immersion. I'd also like to see lifeboats for much the same reason. I'd like to have a possibility to choose whether to shoot them in the water or supply with food and escort to the shore, as it would add realism too. There are thousands of games where you shoot people, mass murder them, burn, bomb, gas, tie, beat and so on - why shouldn't we kill the crews then? The U-Boots we are all here for did it on a mass scale. :hmm:

Yes i just a game at the end, more real life options enabled in game is lead to more realistic game(i´m a heavy supporter for tough realism in game), when i see what child games(like Red Alert and similar) people play...well this is totaly unexeptable level of UNREALISM for me.

About SUBS(echological disaster) well this is my drawback, i allways liked something destructive, while other boys liked cars and similar(you know..look ouu man how this Ferrari loks good) i on other hand always liked tanks,subs,ships(Military), aircrafts. But in my gameing expirience i try to avoid unnecessery victims or polution(this is more or less my play style, but when i encounter some good tanker filled with oil.....normaly i will blast him to skyhigh).

About my DOLPHINS: this is only small urelated(with this thread) message how people should behave in world today(we are very good in killing and destroying for GLORY, PROSPERITY and MODERN CIVILIZATION), when you live to see war in your country(war in Croatia) and when you see how people treating to each other(what they capable to doo each other) and when you see what we doing globaly to our Earth, well.....sometimes just sometimes ask youself...what a freaking thing we doing here, we mus go easy from time to time.

But at the end SH3 is just a game, one great game, so i wish you good BRTonnage rating in next patrol.

:up:

[Stealth Hunter]

I machine-gun lifeboats... in both SH3 (with the mod) and SH4... should I feel bad...?

[yamato9]

I machine-gun lifeboats... in both SH3 (with the mod) and SH4... should I feel bad...?

Hmm...like i said before i personaly avoid unnecesary victims but this is only a game, one goooood game, so Stealth Hunter enjoy in sub rampage.:D

[Stealth Hunter]

Awesome.


However, if it was real war, and I did have the victims in my sights, I'd still probably kill them out of mercy and for the benefit of the country I was fighting for.

[Sniper_Fox]

everytime one of my gunners takes out a spitfire, i feel real guilty, cause my gramps was an ace on the brits... he was a spitfire pilot... thats also why i cant play as germans in combat flight simulator 3!:up:

[yamato9]

everytime one of my gunners takes out a spitfire, i feel real guilty, cause my gramps was an ace on the brits... he was a spitfire pilot... thats also why i cant play as germans in combat flight simulator 3!:up:

Tottaly understand you Sniper Fox, i also got similar expirience in T72 Balkans on Fire, i cant play this game because this game recreates war in my country 1991-1995. (My old man was fought in this war, i cant play agains my people) So i throw this game in thrash.

[Stealth Hunter]

I'm a veteran of the Iran-Iraq War, and I served in it for 6 years (actual combat, not a desk job or anything of that sort). The only game I ever had a problem with was KUMA in their scenario against Iran. That brought back a couple of memories that I don't feel like sharing and really upset me.

[TomcatMVD]

This disscusion reminds me of that scene from "Rescuing private Ryan", when they let a German gunner go away, out of mercy, and in the end, you see him shooting the hell out of the allies and killing the movie's hero.
And there's also this video (on the other hand), on silenthunteriii.com, where a WWII Kaleun would talk about how he met a guy that was sailing on the Malaya, which he had torpedoed and severely damaged, making her loose part of the crew; and the sailor said something like he would thank the sub commander that attacked his ship, because of the shore time that granted them, and when the German said "Well, you have him in front of you", they both had a good laugh and kept talking about war.
So yes... war is a cruel thing, but some men are able to distinguish between duty, and plain slaughter. And some even are able to notice when "duty" becomes something against his human nature.
It is a game... but the good immersion factor makes you wonder how a real Kaleun would feel about it, and it makes you be grateful for not to have to do it IRL.

[Hanomag]

Kaluens,

The bottomline is.. your job as a soldier or sailor at war, is to destroy the enemies of your country in order to win the conflict. Each individual you allow to live is another cog in the enemies war machine.

As a US Army Paratrooper (1/508th Lt Abn) I found that a "no friendlies" attitude worked just fine. If you train for 3 years to kill and cant do it, you are in the wrong line of work. Some folks can live with their dirty work.. others cant.

Im sure it was the same with the Kaluens in WW2. If you have a full blown goose stepping fanatic, Im sure he wasnt loosing much sleep about how many sailors lungs he filled with salt water. And at the other end of the spectrum there were probably those who had pangs everytime they heard "torpedo teffer".

Each one of us is different and theres no way of knowing, til you cross that threshold, how you will truly feel.

Til then Kaluens.. "Pick up your hat! Try and look like a sailor!"

PS It was "SAVING Private Ryan" :o

[Graf Paper]

You should be applauded for feeling some guilt, Col Frost. It shows that your conscience still has humanity and has not become numbed by the deluge of glorifying death and violence that floods popular media.

On the other hand, try to bear in mind that this is merely a game and such death and destruction as you cause should be taken with a grain of salt. If it continues to bother you, then perhaps you should move on to SH4 where you can play an Allied sub commander.

"Realism" is one of those game industry buzzwords that has to be disregarded to a large degree. Even Silent Hunter III, modded to be as "real" as possible, can only loosely be labeled a "simulator" because it is impossible to accurately duplicate the environment of u-boat warfare on a desktop computer. Yes, an abstraction of u-boat warfare has been very nicely done that has the perception of "real" for the player but you can't call this a simulator in the true sense.

As for having survivors and lifeboats, I think it would be an interesting immersion factor, bringing greater consequence to your actions, but I'm content with simply carrying out my mission by putting as much enemy tonnage on the ocean floor as time, skill, and torpedoes will allow.

As Gen. George S. Patton said about warfare, "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country!"

[Oberon]

I machine-gun lifeboats... in both SH3 (with the mod) and SH4... should I feel bad...?

Lifeboats in SH3? What mod is this? I'd like to have lifeboats in, not to machine gun ;) But to saddle up to and offer help, which is something I always try to do, because a) I get to watch the ship go down and b) it pacifies the little voice in the back of my head that reminds me that my great-uncle was on destroyers in '42 ;)

As for feeling guilty about sinking ships, well, not really, it is war after all, it's us or them really, and I know that later on in the war that the Allies will not hesitate in sinking me so I should not hesitate in sinking them when I have the opportunity. However, it's what you do after the act that's the deciding factor IMHO.

[TomcatMVD]

PS It was "SAVING Private Ryan" :o
Lol, sorry, I never heard the actual name in English!

[Hanomag]

Sorry Tomcat... I am very bad at remembering that kinda stuff... :oops:

[TomcatMVD]

Sorry Tomcat... I am very bad at remembering that kinda stuff... :oops:
Nothing to be sorry about herr Kaleun!:up:

[Blacklight]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter
I machine-gun lifeboats... in both SH3 (with the mod) and SH4... should I feel bad...?


Lifeboats in SH3? What mod is this? I'd like to have lifeboats in, not to machine gun ;)

Yeah !! What mod is this ? I'd love to give it a try. I wouldn't waste ammo on machine gunning them though. There are better things to use that ammo on and it would be nice to have all the ammo you can possibly have in some circumstances.:D

[Kapitan_Phillips]

I did a poll about 3 weeks ago, and almost everyone said that if there were life boats in the game, that they would let them live and not blow them out of the water if they had the chance to do so. I would not mind seeing lifeboats....it would be kind of sad and cool all at the same time.

I wonder what would happen to them if you just let them sit there and wait for the rescue ship to show up. :hmm:


You'd probably get blown out of the water as the enemy bring everything down on you for sinking their ship :88)


Not exactly good submarine strategy. Its like hanging around at a crime scene :rotfl:

[Blacklight]

I wonder what would happen to them if you just let them sit there and wait for the rescue ship to show up. :hmm:

Actually, this was sometimes a strategy back in WWI. Uboats would sink a ship, then wait for the rescue ships to come and then sink them when they tried to pick up survivors. This started a policy of "Not picking up survivors" if the ship had just been torpedoed. A LOT of ship captains however disobeyed those orders and many of their ships got sunk as well.

[U49]

I seem to remember that the Germans sank the Ark Royal about seven times during the last war. I expect that every captain got the iron necklace each time.

My current career (march'40) has brought HMS Hood twice in my logbook :rock:.

And NO: I do not feel guilty! :yep:
I am eager to send HMS Hood to the fishes for a 3rd time :arrgh!:

:()1:

[kenijaru]

Kaluens,
The bottomline is.. your job as a soldier or sailor at war, is to destroy the enemies of your country in order to win the conflict. Each individual you allow to live is another cog in the enemies war machine.

actually, as a sailor at war... you job is to sink the enemy ship, not kill it's personel!
i'm not saying that one should avoid shooting in fear of killing men, but to avoid killing men needlessly!

in "The way to Scappa Flow by Gunther Prien" he sais that on one of the ships he sunk, he met an old ship-mate, with who he had sailed for a long time.

[spork542]

As a matter of fact, I did feel quite guilty today. I attacked a convoy SE of Newfoundland in January 1942, and fired four torpedoes at... HMT Aquitania. Yes, Aquitania. One torpedo hit it in the stern and it sank in 30 minutes. 45000 tons of troop transport. I shouldn't feel guilty about that, but hey, it's the Aquitania.

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/4600/sh32008011314493657jl7.th.jpg (http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh32008011314493657jl7.jpg)

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/6089/sh32008011314512301dx5.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh32008011314512301dx5.jpg)

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8387/sh32008011314515325mh1.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh32008011314515325mh1.jpg)

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8830/sh32008011314522200pu1.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh32008011314522200pu1.jpg)

[Stealth Hunter]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter
I machine-gun lifeboats... in both SH3 (with the mod) and SH4... should I feel bad...?


Lifeboats in SH3? What mod is this? I'd like to have lifeboats in, not to machine gun ;)

Yeah !! What mod is this ? I'd love to give it a try. I wouldn't waste ammo on machine gunning them though. There are better things to use that ammo on and it would be nice to have all the ammo you can possibly have in some circumstances.:D

Sergbuto's mod. Go to his SH3 page. Don't know if the mod download link is still up for use.


EDIT:

Spork,

Good job! One less transport we must worry about. Take pride in knowing that you've served the Fatherland with the destruction of a major Allied ship. Keep up the good work, and show no mercy (lol).

[Cohaagen]

Hey, this game is not about saving dolphins or people, it's about sinking ships and being sunk. In fact, U-Boots' work was to cause ecological disaster on a huge scale - all this oil, acid, and other crap from sunk ships, sound of blasts that deafened and killed sea animals... But that's the way of war, when man fights he doesn't care a lot.

Care for people and nature in real life, as it's important. But do not moralize too much in game, thus making it unrealistic. I'd like to see the crews sinking, as it would greatly add immersion. I'd also like to see lifeboats for much the same reason. I'd like to have a possibility to choose whether to shoot them in the water or supply with food and escort to the shore, as it would add realism too. There are thousands of games where you shoot people, mass murder them, burn, bomb, gas, tie, beat and so on - why shouldn't we kill the crews then? The U-Boots we are all here for did it on a mass scale. :hmm:
Certainly there are games that let you do that, but generally they're not based on historical events involving possibly the most evil regime mankind has known and from which there are still (deeply traumatised) survivors.

I can't imagine most people outside of Britain, the principal enemy in SH3, feeling guilty. As a retort, I'd ask you how you'd feel about a first-person shooter where you take the role of a militiaman in an Einzatzgruppen in Poland. First mission has you round up the inhabitants of a Polish village, take them out in the woods, and bayonet them one by one through the eye socket. Later in the game you help liquidate Warsaw after the uprising. Successfully complete the game and be rewarded with a cutscene of your later years running a bookshop in Buenos Aires :88)

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Hey, this game is not about saving dolphins or people, it's about sinking ships and being sunk. In fact, U-Boots' work was to cause ecological disaster on a huge scale - all this oil, acid, and other crap from sunk ships, sound of blasts that deafened and killed sea animals... But that's the way of war, when man fights he doesn't care a lot.

Care for people and nature in real life, as it's important. But do not moralize too much in game, thus making it unrealistic. I'd like to see the crews sinking, as it would greatly add immersion. I'd also like to see lifeboats for much the same reason. I'd like to have a possibility to choose whether to shoot them in the water or supply with food and escort to the shore, as it would add realism too. There are thousands of games where you shoot people, mass murder them, burn, bomb, gas, tie, beat and so on - why shouldn't we kill the crews then? The U-Boots we are all here for did it on a mass scale. :hmm:
Certainly there are games that let you do that, but generally they're not based on historical events involving possibly the most evil regime mankind has known and from which there are still (deeply traumatised) survivors.

I can't imagine most people outside of Britain, the principal enemy in SH3, feeling guilty. As a retort, I'd ask you how you'd feel about a first-person shooter where you take the role of a militiaman in an Einzatzgruppen in Poland. First mission has you round up the inhabitants of a Polish village, take them out in the woods, and bayonet them one by one through the eye socket. Later in the game you help liquidate Warsaw after the uprising. Successfully complete the game and be rewarded with a cutscene of your later years running a bookshop in Buenos Aires :88)

You seem to miss the border between realism and pure sadism. I haven't heard about a "pazifikation" nor "SS mass slaughter" game, and I'd have to think a bit before even touching it, as I don't suppose killing civilians or gasing Jews would ever entertain me, no matter what the game graphics and sound would be.

Let's focus on strategy games... A few months ago I enjoyed a lot conquering Poland in Hearts of Iron, I'd have no problems shooting Polish pilots down or defending Monte Cassino against the Polish assault and opening fire at climbing siluettes... Just a game, I'd enjoy playing any side. It has nothing to do with ideology, patriotism or hatred.

So now I'll do my best to sink any allied ship and to kill any allied soldier as a U-Boot commander, as I would equally do my best to sink any U-Boot and take down any Stuka as a British destroyer commander. But I don't play "Destroyer Command", so I don't sink U-Boots. In fact sinking Polish ships entartains me a lot more than sinking Brits or Yanks, cause I always know what I'm sinking and I can imagine that people I dislike are on the deck. ;) A joke.

So, concluding, survivors and lifeboats have nothing to do with sadism, holocaust, mass graves, "pacifications" nor death camps. Anybody that says so should also say, that any SHIII player is a dirty nazi and Hitler's follower.

[flag4]

the reality is cold, brutal, i am amazed and in awe they did this...

rip - respect to all boat crews.

[Blacklight]

Sergbuto's mod. Go to his SH3 page. Don't know if the mod download link is still up for use.

The lifeboat mod is not available on the site. Does anyone have it or want to host it or share it ? Or is there problems with it ?

[TarJak]

In the immortal words of the Sacred Cows: "Kill!, Kill!, Kill!, Thrill!, Thrill!, Thrill!"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jGwSgk5U0Zk

In all seriousness It's a game and whilst reflecting on the RL events behind it I feel nothing other than satisfaction over having gotten into position and settin gup a good firing solution to get the sinking.:arrgh!:

[GoldenRivet]

My grandfather (who died many years ago) was a merchant marine onboard oil tankers in the latter part of WW2.

As i was very young when he died it was an aspect of his life we regrettably never had a chance to talk about.

ever now and again i find myself thinking "i wonder what his opinion of my playing this game would be?" but then i remind myself that it IS just a game, and im sure it is a game that he would have had at least some interest in simply because of the naval aspect.

[Jimbuna]

My grandfather (who died many years ago) was a merchant marine onboard oil tankers in the latter part of WW2.

As i was very young when he died it was an aspect of his life we regrettably never had a chance to talk about.

ever now and again i find myself thinking "i wonder what his opinion of my playing this game would be?" but then i remind myself that it IS just a game, and im sure it is a game that he would have had at least some interest in simply because of the naval aspect.

Agreed :yep: ....My father (84 year old and still alive) served in the British Merchant Marine during WW2 and upon being informed of my gaming preference, commented only "A lot of good men died in those terrible times".
I never thought to ask him if he meant only British lives or German lives as well. However, I suspect he meant only British, considering his father also served in the British Merchant Marine and went down with his ship. :hmm:

[TomcatMVD]

Agreed :yep: ....My father (84 year old and still alive) served in the British Merchant Marine during WW2 and upon being informed of my gaming preference, commented only "A lot of good men died in those terrible times".
I never thought to ask him if he meant only British lives or German lives as well. However, I suspect he meant only British, considering his father also served in the British Merchant Marine and went down with his ship. :hmm:
I'd bet my dollars he meant both of them.
That's the admirable thing about seamen, most of them killed "ships" but regretted the loose of "fellow sailors". After all, why would you think sub-commanders would assist the crew of a sunk ship with directions, food and navigation tools? They were in the war "together", just battling for different countries, and they knew, that each individual was not guilty for the country where he had been born, or he was serving to.

[Ula Jolly]

I'd bet my dollars he meant both of them.
That's the admirable thing about seamen, most of them killed "ships" but regretted the loose of "fellow sailors". After all, why would you think sub-commanders would assist the crew of a sunk ship with directions, food and navigation tools? They were in the war "together", just battling for different countries, and they knew, that each individual was not guilty for the country where he had been born, or he was serving to. In general, this holds true for airmen as well. There is quite the significant difference in killing a 'thing', a weapon of the enemy, than an individual. You can read all those wartime diaries of so many pilots - especially during the first world war - where the parachute is mentioned. Or the lack of parachute. To me it says something about humanity in those that flew. Sometimes it's more between the lines, and so maybe I am guilty of reading too much into it - but the hope is well founded.
It's rather logical, that to have to kill another man dents your mentality and well-being far more than to watch the artillery on your battleship wreck the Bismarck. It's when you hear voices and see people on deck that something inside you is caught - at least I gather that's where it must be.
The distance to your enemy is relatively short in a submarine, to your target merchant. I don't doubt some had quiet thoughts about what they did, from time to time, but again you're firing on a big, 'dead' object.

[Blacklight]

My father was drafted and ended up as a canon spotter in Vietnam and he definitely is against anything that involves violence or war. When we were young, we weren't allowed to have toy guns (not even squirt guns), GI-Joe was a BIG No-No. Most action figures were banned if they had guns. When I got older, through my love of alternative gaming mostly due to my introduction to Dungeons & Dragons, led me into the histrorical wargames of Avalon Hill and SPI. My father definitely dissagreed that those games should even be in the house but tolerated it because I was a teenager at the time but he refused and STILL refuses to play them. He can't even watch a movie with violence in it so therefore, action films aren't his forte'

This said, he knows a lot about the subjects of the tactics of the battles and a LOT about the history of various wars. While he refuses to play any games blatantly dealing with war, I can show him a scenario in a board war game and he can tell me particularly what each side did in the battle.. who came in from where... what tactics each side used that failed or succeded...etc. He even showed me how to do manual targeting and manual navagation in Silent Hunter III (which are basically trigonometry equasions that I still really grasp to understand but that's besides the point), and he's also given me some tips and tricks and coached me in some of the tactics that the German U-Boats used that actually worked in the game.

I think now, he's finally beginning to come to peace with his war time experiences and is now willing to talk about and share these stories and teach the history of various events that I've only gamed. This adds a lot more meaning to these games for me actually. It amazed me that a man who hates war so much is such an expert on the history and tactics of battles and wars fought all through history. It's a contradiction in him that I love.

[Jimbuna]

Agreed :yep: ....My father (84 year old and still alive) served in the British Merchant Marine during WW2 and upon being informed of my gaming preference, commented only "A lot of good men died in those terrible times".
I never thought to ask him if he meant only British lives or German lives as well. However, I suspect he meant only British, considering his father also served in the British Merchant Marine and went down with his ship. :hmm:
I'd bet my dollars he meant both of them.
That's the admirable thing about seamen, most of them killed "ships" but regretted the loose of "fellow sailors". After all, why would you think sub-commanders would assist the crew of a sunk ship with directions, food and navigation tools? They were in the war "together", just battling for different countries, and they knew, that each individual was not guilty for the country where he had been born, or he was serving to.

You know what ?.....I'm gonna ask him on Sunday :yep:

[silentrunner]

Video games shouldn't make you feel guilty I allways say if Hitler had Halo 2 WWII never would have happened.

[bookworm_020]

Guilty that your sinking ships, which is what your playing the game for? No!, But I still don't machine gun survivors! It wastes ammo better used to sink ships.

In real life sub crews sometimes had some sympathy for their enemy, especialy when they died in a bad way, oil fires and so forth.

Das boot caught the moment when they saw survivors on the burning tanker.:yep:

[retroflow]

Well...

What's there to really feel guilty about? It's all a computer simulation. In the game you may be sinking oil tankers and troop ships but there's no real harm done. No real loss of life and property. In terms of the glorification and romanticism of War, it's quite low-key compared to other military games. It was clearly inspired by Das Boot. Not really much of a recruiting tool like some other titles.

On the other hand, it's not a bad thing to sit back and think about the ramifications that War brings onto the World, throughout History. In fact, if playing the game sharpens your feelings against War, maybe that's the best thing to ever come out of it all.

[Jimbuna]

I think the best way to look at it is to maintain a level perspective and accept that SH3 is purely a submarine simulation that is loosely based on true life events during WW2.

[Uncle Goose]

U-boat commanders have throughout the decades been branded as heartless devils who wanted to kill whatever they encountered. This was part of a real left-wing brainwashing to show everyone how bad those U-boat Nazi's were (although only a very small part was actually member of the Nazi party). But the gruesome fact was that it was rather the Allies who were the beasts on the seas, they killed helpless U-boatcrews who were already in the water when their sub was sinking. Only on 2 occasions in the whole war did U-boatcommanders cross the line, 1 was even accidentally (it involved shooting wreckage to make it sink faster so they could hide their locations from planes) while in the other case the commander was executed on personal order of Dönitz. In the early years U-boat even helped the crews of the ships if they could by giving them food, water and sometimes even directions how to make it safely to the shore (if they were not too far from it). But the Laconia incident forced them to abandon this help. For those who don't know, the laconia was a passengers ship torpedo's by the U156 while it was sailing without lights, it was holding 1800 Italian POW and several British people (including women and children). The U-156 courageously started to conduct a rescue operation and picked up as much survivors as possible (regardless of their nationality). Dönitz sended 2 more U-boats and asked the Free French to send a few ships to pick them all up afterwards. U-156 transmitted a message asking for assistance of other ships in the neighborhood with the promise he would not attack, no reply came. the following days 3 other submarines came to help (U-506, U-507 and the Italian Cappallini), their decks where crammed with survivors. On 16 September 1942 the subs were spotted by a B24 liberator who could clearly see the Red Cross flags drapped over the gundecks, the U-156 signaled the plane for help. A few hours later the plane returned and attacked the subs (with their decks full of survivors) with bombs and depth charges!!! The subs had to abandon the operation and had to put all the survivors back in the sea in the hope that the Free French would arrive quickly. In spite that these vessels arrived later that day several hundreds of people perished in the cold water.

After this incident Dönitz forbade every rescue action because it endangered not only the boat but also the entire crew.


The attack on these subs (although they were military crafts) was without doubt a warcrime, the one who ordered to attack the subs was never convicted for this (surprise, surprise).

[Oberon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident

http://www.uboataces.com/battle-laconia.shtml

EDIT: D'oh! Should have read the post above me, great minds think alike, eh?

[Sigurd]

I generally dont feel guilty when I play, because I like to imagine that I always rescue the crew, or provide them with supplies throughout the war (although I have yet to survive to see the Lacona incident resulting in it being banned). Since SH3 doesnt model in rescuing crewmen like that, I do have to attack unannounced, but in my mind, I'm being civil about it.

I sink ships, not men.

[magicsub]

do you have to install all of the gwx files to have dolphins and whales?

[onelifecrisis]

I'm English and the first time I got into firing position on a merchant in stock SH3, I looked at St George's Cross and couldn't bring myself to hit the fire button! :o It's the first time anything like that has happened to me in a video game, and I've played a lot.

And the wierd thing is, if you'd asked me before I'd have sworn blind that I'm not patriotic!

[Jimbuna]

do you have to install all of the gwx files to have dolphins and whales?

Yes :yep:

[Rotary Crewman]

No, sink them all. Renown is much more important now!

[Abd_von_Mumit]

I'm English and the first time I got into firing position on a merchant in stock SH3, I looked at St George's Cross and couldn't bring myself to hit the fire button! :o It's the first time anything like that has happened to me in a video game, and I've played a lot.

And the wierd thing is, if you'd asked me before I'd have sworn blind that I'm not patriotic!
Opposite here. :D Gimme tons of missions to sink Polish shipping! (one would have to sink them again and again, as they were so few...). :arrgh!: You could even invent Palestinian shipping in order to let me sink some too! ;) Maybe it's sick, but I just enjoy much sinking 'ours'.

I really regret there is no a Baltic mission in September '39 in careers. :/

[onelifecrisis]

Maybe it's sick, but I just enjoy much sinking 'ours'.

Weirdo! :nope:

;)

[Col Frost]

I machine-gun lifeboats... in both SH3 (with the mod) and SH4... should I feel bad...? lol, I machine gunned a British sloop the other day:rotfl: Got to top up my tonnage score...

[sturmer]

just another victim that crossed my path hehe.
i just love seeing ships disappear on the horizon into the deep blue.

sturmer

[Marriott]

the only time i feel any guilt is when i sink a neutral, which doesnt happen very often

[NealT]

We think THIS is bad...just think about the poor guys/gals who have their fingers on the magic button (key) designed to do a whole lot of damage...:hmm:

[trongey]

I actually just got around to buying SHIII a few months ago because I just couldn't get motivated to sail for the other side.

It's not like I have anything against Germans or something dumb like that. I've always figured they fought just as honorably as the allies on average. I think it's just that after so many hours in the US subs of SHI it felt like some kind of treason.:arrgh!:

[Jimbuna]

I actually just got around to buying SHIII a few months ago because I just couldn't get motivated to sail for the other side.

It's not like I have anything against Germans or something dumb like that. I've always figured they fought just as honorably as the allies on average. I think it's just that after so many hours in the US subs of SHI it felt like some kind of treason.:arrgh!:

remember one thing above all else.....It's just a game http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

SINK EM ALL!! http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[Abd_von_Mumit]

I actually just got around to buying SHIII a few months ago because I just couldn't get motivated to sail for the other side.

It's not like I have anything against Germans or something dumb like that. I've always figured they fought just as honorably as the allies on average. I think it's just that after so many hours in the US subs of SHI it felt like some kind of treason.:arrgh!:
Oh, I have MUCH against Germans (i.e. the WWII occupants and aggressors) and I don't think they "fought just as honourably" as, for example, Polish did (Polish didn't murder whole cities, villages and nations 'for the cause'), but Jimbuna is right - it's only a game. I, as an adult, am aware of things and I choose to play. But IF I had a, say, 5-10 years old son, I'd have to think A LOT about letting him play this... Yuo know, it could be too hard for him to distinguish between PLAYING 'on the wrong side' and SUPPORTING it. It could mess up his head, I suppose.

So it's always good to be cautious. :up:

[trongey]

I actually just got around to buying SHIII a few months ago because I just couldn't get motivated to sail for the other side.

It's not like I have anything against Germans or something dumb like that. I've always figured they fought just as honorably as the allies on average. I think it's just that after so many hours in the US subs of SHI it felt like some kind of treason.:arrgh!:
Oh, I have MUCH against Germans (i.e. the WWII occupants and aggressors) and I don't think they "fought just as honourably" as, for example, Polish did (Polish didn't murder whole cities, villages and nations 'for the cause'), but Jimbuna is right - it's only a game. ...
Just to clarify, I was referring to the common soldiers such as the sailors in our U-boots, or the aircraft pilots, or the foot soldiers slogging throught the mud in Europe. It's well known that horrible things were done by certain individuals and organizations on all sides of the war. The vast majority though were just out there trying to stay alive while doing what their countries had told them was the right thing to do. I'm aware that you have a much different perspective than I do, and I respect that.

Of course it's just a game, but it can also illustrate the strange tricks that our minds can play on us. I often wonder how I would feel about firing a torpedo at a real merchant ship in a time of war. Would I feel the same sense of satisfaction at seeing or hearing the explosion? Would I feel horrified that I had probably just killed a bunch of merchant sailors and forced many others into the frigid North Atlantic? Would I be able to reconcile having both feelings at once?

I find it interesting that I can be so immersed in a game that I feel a real sense of urgency (or even fear) when being attacked, but am still able to easily dismiss my victims as imaginary digital constructs.

Tony

[JAKE]

So if I sink a battleship it will just re-appear latter in the game.:damn: .....well i'll be ready to sink it again and agian if needs be.:arrgh!:

[kiwikapitan]

I saw a great doco on the History channel last night Sink The Bismarck. One of the 3 :o survivors of the Hood Ted Briggs said he felt bad for the poor souls on the Bismarck as he had gone through the same harrowing thing when the Hood blew up. Amazing story of his survival. A miracle anybody survived when she went down.

And even with a u-boat nearby she still can't be saved (hypothetical single mission). :cry::damn:

[She-Wolf]

Several of you have mentioned that it would be desirable to see lifeboats coming from a sinking ship in GWX... well, there IS a mod for lifeboats and debris available. Works fine in GWX2, not yet tried it in GWX3....

[Hitman]

I'm English and the first time I got into firing position on a merchant in stock SH3, I looked at St George's Cross and couldn't bring myself to hit the fire button! :o It's the first time anything like that has happened to me in a video game, and I've played a lot.


Despite being spanish myself, I was educated in a german school and have been all my life in touch with germans, learning to apreciate their good points while also being critic about their bad ones. But one thing that has struck me always is that I have so far been unable to play in wargames against the german side, I feel always bad when shooting at something or someone from germany and simply stop enjoying the game. Now I have started since last year to learn russian (A culture I have always loved and admired) and to get in touch with russians, and I'm beginning to feel the same when playing IL2 with german planes :damn: I hate to bring down a russian aircraft.

Interestingly, I have been speaking english for ages and have met englishmen and americans which I appreciate a lot, but I never felt guilty about sinking british ships in SH3 :hmm: Somehow with anglosaxons I don't get that Pavlov's dog effect of relating a sunk virtual british merchant with damaging the people and culture I have learned so much to appreciate. Also, I have never been bothered about killing spanish soldiers and/or destroying spanish units in wargames or 3D shooters, despite having myself a legion of spanish soldiers in my family :o

[Red Heat]

My personaly view about the game its this, my first objective in the game (in every version of the GWX) its to reach my warpatrol goal, second its to destroy enemy merchant ships, third capital ships...destroyers only if they are between me and my objective...if not i avoid the desnecessary combat...

About sinking enemy ships of course i know for every sinking ship will be a nunber of lost of lives...but they are the enemy wich they are organize to destroy my country, my village, my friends, my family...and the only thing wich can do the diference its because im between them and the enemy...if every man do her job correctly this invisible line between live and death it will be larger...and the away to peace shorter...the big question every one are prepared to follow orders with out question? I dont think so...for that its necessary a complete a extensive military trainning wich came to my mind, SH3 GWX its only a very good game about W.W. II, OR THE BEST OF HIS KIND!

[B.N.R.T.]

Although I don't play SH3 much anymore lately, I did feel some sense of guilt when I sunk a ship. I have to think about a Dutch writer named Jan de Hartog in a book about a tug-boat captain or crew in WWII. In particular a scene where he described people in the icy cold waters, covered in oil and screaming for help. They were completely covered in black, sticky oil and their screaming mouths were pink holes. I don't remember the title of the book, perhaps someone else does.

So yes, I do think about the lives that were lost (on both sides) in the U-boat war but still remember it's only a game and I'm not killing anyone myself.

[Freiwillige]

I feel no guilt. Thats not to say that I do not play as humanly as possible. All this talk about killing and machine gunning and goose stepping Nazi's not caring about how many lungs get filled with salt water is a load of ^$(@

The vast majority of the Unterseebootwaffe did what they could to help the stricken sailers untill it bacame too dangerous and they had strict orders from B.d.u. not to. Even in GWX 3.0 I got a radio message informing me to take aboard all merchant crews. Only later in the war when merchants armed themselves did the U-boats stop providing aid. It was about the stopping of supplies not about how many sailors you can kill. After all many merchants were civilians.

To kill a ship is a beautifull thing, to knowingly and willingly kill the crew....not so much.

[PBV]

I don't feel guilt, but I would not conciously shoot at survivors. Onkel Karl hired me to sink tonnage, not kill sailors. Sailors can be replaced in any seaside tavern, ships cannot, so I'd rather just use my ammo to sink those precious tons.... :arrgh!:

[Ping Panther]

From B.N.R.T.;
"I have to think about a Dutch writer named Jan de Hartog in a book about a tug-boat captain or crew in WWII. In particular a scene where he described people in the icy cold waters, covered in oil and screaming for help. They were completely covered in black, sticky oil and their screaming mouths were pink holes. I don't remember the title of the book, perhaps someone else does."
The author is Hartog and the novel is "The Captain", 1967... Much of it about convoy PQ-17. It's a good book. I haven't seen it in a long time. I would like to get sometime & somewhere. Thanks for bringing up the thought of it for me again.

[kiwikapitan]

Heh it seems I resurrected an old thread. :oops:

I feel no guilt when sinking ships. It's just a game after all and there are no real men onboard them anyway!. However, if there was a 3D mini-game whereby there were real sailors (not the lifeboats mod which sometimes spawns when ship sink) that you could machine gun, I would feel very immoral doing that. :nope:

I used to play the Combat Mission 3D wargame CMBB and I would really feel for my men when they went down and it's the same in SH3 if I have a crew death or worse loss of sub with all hands I feel bad for my virtual family. :cry:

I have British ancestry and yet I have no problem being German in my computer games. Sink 'em all! :arrgh!:

[BasilY]

I feel quite bad about the merchies' cew, having some lifeboats fleeing away form the sinking ship would be nice... it would help that tiny bit of humanity some of us have, anyways... I gues they deserve it for playing on the wrong team:arrgh!:
Regarding DD's or BB's crews, after I read a couple of U-boats sinking reports, and how they would shoot with sidearms at anyone trying to get out of the sub, yeah, they pretty much deserve my merciless hunting.
OK, i´m not british guy but seeing in some mods how sailors blow up in the air, well maybe this is interesting but also in some aspect of the game is also coold blooded or cruel. Some lifeboats near sinking ship will be realy helpfull.

I´v newer installed mod with DOLPHINS in my game just because same reason.

IN REAL LIFE: Watch on animals,trees and plants, they are true treasure of the world.:yep:

I will recommend Zoo Tycoon (the complete version is the best) for you... Ah, all that wishy-washy feeling.:D

[Brag]

From B.N.R.T.;
"I have to think about a Dutch writer named Jan de Hartog in a book about a tug-boat captain or crew in WWII. In particular a scene where he described people in the icy cold waters, covered in oil and screaming for help. They were completely covered in black, sticky oil and their screaming mouths were pink holes. I don't remember the title of the book, perhaps someone else does."
The author is Hartog and the novel is "The Captain", 1967... Much of it about convoy PQ-17. It's a good book. I haven't seen it in a long time. I would like to get sometime & somewhere. Thanks for bringing up the thought of it for me again.

An excellent book, I recommend it :D

[hewsu]

For me the enjoyment of sinking ships came from Aces of the Deep. You aimed, you shot and looked the ship sink in a "yay I got another one" way that looked somewhat realistic but still very "gamey".

In SH3 the way ships sink is way much more realistic. It easy to imagine crews on the burning, exploding and sinking decks. Personally I feel guilty after every ship sunk, even if I had to go trough a hell to sink it. Like earlier mentioned you sink ships not men. Soon after I also remember that I am a captain of the u-boot and start to think of my own safety, submerging away from the scene because I can't do anything for the enemy crew on water.

But I also enjoy this feeling of guilt, its a bit like watching a war movie and realising what war really is. We people tend to forget it very easily. There is also a certaint aspect of glory assosiated with war which war games usually manage to express very well. Wars in RL are far from this glorified image and I don't think we should ever try to simulate war in this form.

[Keelbuster]

I feel quite bad about the merchies' cew, having some lifeboats fleeing away form the sinking ship would be nice... it would help that tiny bit of humanity some of us have, anyways... I gues they deserve it for playing on the wrong team:arrgh!:
Regarding DD's or BB's crews, after I read a couple of U-boats sinking reports, and how they would shoot with sidearms at anyone trying to get out of the sub, yeah, they pretty much deserve my merciless hunting.

I feel the same way about merchants. Sometimes it just doesn't seem fair. With warships, on the other hand, it's open season. If there's a cruiser in a convoy, I always sink it first, merchants second. But, orders are orders, i guess...