Some realism questions - what would a real U-Boot commander do? What would you do?

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Recently I play at 64TC at most, so I got plenty time to think about what I'm doing and what an average U-Boot Commander would do being in similar situations. Many questions arise and I'd like to ask two of them, as these two trouble me a lot:

1. What route exactly did U-Boots usually take when going to North Atlantic? Did they head straight NW to reach Orkney Islands (Scapa) area and then turned W? Or did they try to hunt on their way and chose a route closer to GB coast, thus making the trip longer and more dangerous? What passage did they choose when close to Orkney/Shetland Islands - did they slip between the two or go around (N of Shetland)? What distance from the Orkneys/Shetlands shore was considered "safe" for a transit trip of a U-Boot to North Atlantic (this changed for sure as time passed)?

All this questions come from one thought - what route should I take. :)

2. What was the priority od reaching assigned patrol grid? Was it a must to get there, or was the order just an indication of where it would be probably good to go hunting, if there is no better choice?

3. My present situation is: February 1940, type VIIB U-Boot after patrolling BE59 area (very successful 1,5 month patrol), no torpedoes left, almost no 88 mm. shells left, 3/4 flak ammo left. 3 Crew members killed, frame and hull integrity estimated to be somewhere around 85-95% (my Hull Integrity indicator is switched off so I don't know for sure). Fuel in tanks is enough for a 5-8k km trip. Question is - where should I go:
- to my home base, Wilhelmshaven, 4000 km route (around GB), and that would mean crossing enemy area without torpedoes and ammo, but on the other hand also repairs and rest after reaching port,
- to milk cow located in Cadiz, Spain, 1800 km route, and that means no repairs and no rest for the crew after reaching Cadiz (no reporting to BdU too, btw), but it also means being supplied with torpedoes, ammo and fuel for the trip back home.

What would YOU do? What do you think a real U-Boot commander would do, basing on our historical knowledge?


Any ideas and HISTORICAL BACKGROUND will be very appreciated. :)

[TomcatMVD]

Now that's a hard call, for starters, I would say that your current situation does not sound quite realistic to me, unless you got damaged after you expended everything aboard, it pretty much sounds as if you kept battling after being severely damaged. Having spent so much deck gun ammo doesn't sound right either, I think it was pretty much just a deffensive measure (more of a morale aid) or a coup-de-grace tool.
Regarding where to head, I'd say they would head for the nearest port, not milk-cow, what could be the risk of going through a re-supply procedure with such a sick boat? Personell needs to be working on the deck, for quite a long period of time, and there's the fuel hose with all its dangers attached (you're in the ocean, but fuels remains a flammable thing), so you are pretty much risking further damage, with no possible repair. If no alternate port is available, I'd say a Kaleun would take the northernmost route home, since exposing to danger means you may need to dive, not a very good idea without knowing your hull limitation.
Now, as you may be already thinking, this is just speculation from my part, so I hope it helps you firure things out and excuse me if it wasn't exactly what you were expecting.

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Thanks for the reply. Your first remarks are unfortunately quite accurate:

Now that's a hard call, for starters, I would say that your current situation does not sound quite realistic to me, unless you got damaged after you expended everything aboard, it pretty much sounds as if you kept battling after being severely damaged. Having spent so much deck gun ammo doesn't sound right either, I think it was pretty much just a deffensive measure (more of a morale aid) or a coup-de-grace tool.
Yes, I used the deck gun as a weapon of ship destruction. :) Almost all the patrol went in excellent weather conditions (I don't think I've ever seen so good weather for so long periods in SH3), wind 0 and visibility "unlimited" or "moderate". Given that gift from the fate I decided to save a few torpedoes for worse times and sank a few ships with the deck gun. No waves at all and the deck was a really stable base for the gun, you see... And the targets were unarmed, as it's early '40. Was it really against realism? I simply don't know.

Next thing is damage. The very first thing after being damaged and escaping the danger I put the boat into test - dived carefully as deep as we could. I always perform such a test when starting a patrol (in case of malfunctions or sabotage) and my boat usually can go as deep as about 220 m before the ounds start to scare me. Tests after taking damage shew, that the boat could still go down to 210 m without going wild, so I decided to stay at patrol as the damage was not too bad (I suppose hull integrity is somewhere between 85-95%, but it could be 99.5% as well... who knows). I planned to start trip back home when I'm left with 5 torpedoes (1 aft and 4 bow), as I usually do. But then, with still 10 torps left, I met a convoy... You know, 18 juicy freighters and only 1 British S&W Class destroyer... Sinking 4 ships ate my 10 torpedoes. Who could resist that temptation? :) So we're now left with no weapons at all. Does it severly violate realism again? I simply don't know.

But I'd very much like to know.

Regarding where to head, I'd say they would head for the nearest port, not milk-cow, what could be the risk of going through a re-supply procedure with such a sick boat? Personell needs to be working on the deck, for quite a long period of time, and there's the fuel hose with all its dangers attached (you're in the ocean, but fuels remains a flammable thing), so you are pretty much risking further damage, with no possible repair. If no alternate port is available, I'd say a Kaleun would take the northernmost route home, since exposing to danger means you may need to dive, not a very good idea without knowing your hull limitation.
Now, as you may be already thinking, this is just speculation from my part, so I hope it helps you firure things out and excuse me if it wasn't exactly what you were expecting.
This sounds very resonably, thanks a lot. That's exactly what I was asking for - your opinion on what to do know. I appreciate that. :up:

[CCIP]

1. What route exactly did U-Boots usually take when going to North Atlantic? Did they head straight NW to reach Orkney Islands (Scapa) area and then turned W? Or did they try to hunt on their way and chose a route closer to GB coast, thus making the trip longer and more dangerous? What passage did they choose when close to Orkney/Shetland Islands - did they slip between the two or go around (N of Shetland)? What distance from the Orkneys/Shetlands shore was considered "safe" for a transit trip of a U-Boot to North Atlantic (this changed for sure as time passed)?


All this questions come from one thought - what route should I take. :)
I think this varied. Strategically it wouldn't make sense to take the same route over and over, and it probably depended on the situation.

Taking the short route in the summer probably would be a bit too dangerous since the nights would be rather bright and short. In the winter I'd be more inclined. If damaged, I would avoid it.


2. What was the priority od reaching assigned patrol grid? Was it a must to get there, or was the order just an indication of where it would be probably good to go hunting, if there is no better choice?
The real problem with SHIII is that it doesn't model the strategic aspects of U-boat warfare. It probably wouldn't be as much of a conundrum if the BdU acted like, well, BdU.

In reality BdU kept tabs on what all U-boats were doing and constantly micro-managed them. You would probably have a much more comprehensive set of orders to start with than "patrol grid XX" and when it came to what to do next - well, you know who you called (I mean U-boats radioed their situation to BdU daily regardless).

I guess in SHIII, the best question to ask in the situation is "what would BdU do?" :D


3. My present situation is: February 1940, type VIIB U-Boot after patrolling BE59 area (very successful 1,5 month patrol), no torpedoes left, almost no 88 mm. shells left, 3/4 flak ammo left. 3 Crew members killed, frame and hull integrity estimated to be somewhere around 85-95% (my Hull Integrity indicator is switched off so I don't know for sure). Fuel in tanks is enough for a 5-8k km trip. Question is - where should I go:
- to my home base, Wilhelmshaven, 4000 km route (around GB), and that would mean crossing enemy area without torpedoes and ammo, but on the other hand also repairs and rest after reaching port,
- to milk cow located in Cadiz, Spain, 1800 km route, and that means no repairs and no rest for the crew after reaching Cadiz (no reporting to BdU too, btw), but it also means being supplied with torpedoes, ammo and fuel for the trip back home.

What would YOU do? What do you think a real U-Boot commander would do, basing on our historical knowledge?


Any ideas and HISTORICAL BACKGROUND will be very appreciated. :)
Go home and avoid enemy destroyers, that's all I can say!

I don't know how you got the damage, but my attitude to damage is that once a U-boat is hit badly, there could be more wrong with it than meets the eye. Certainly a U-boat commander would get cautious in that situation.

From the strategic point of view, if you're a VIIB U-boat in early 1940, then you're one of just a couple of dozen of ocean-going U-boats. You're more important to BdU than a few more tons. At this point I gather there could be enough things wrong with your boat that you don't even know about which could put it danger. Historically, U-boats would go back once hit badly enough. Perhaps if this is 1943 and you have a convoy ahead of you to grind teeth on, you might go on. But this early in the war, you're more useful to the war effort if you preserve your U-boat and fight another day. I think results one would expect from a few more attacks at this point wouldn't justify risking the loss of your boat then and there.

That's my take, anyway.

[TomcatMVD]

You know, 18 juicy freighters and only 1 British S&W Class destroyer... Sinking 4 ships ate my 10 torpedoes. Who could resist that temptation? :)
I'll give you that! I would have done exactly the same thing, I just believe a real Kaleun would have found that decision a lot harder to be made.
I appreciate the fact you didn't take my post as criticism, I pretty much believe I would have followed your same steps all the way through, I've sank my fair share of merchies using the deck gun, I just don't think that's the way it was done.
Hope you make it back safely!

[Wildhawke11]

I have in fact stopped using the deck gun against ships as i found i could sink many merchants with it. I could of course be wrong, but to me it seemed fun but unrealistic. But of course each to his own.

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Possibly just fun is the main reason even realism-freaks keep using the gun. :arrgh!:

[Turm]

Very good questions and ones I've also wondered about during the long outbound and return legs of my patrols. I never thought to ask about it here, though :doh:

Originally, from Wilhelmshaven, I used to head north to the deep water around Norway and sail around to the north of the Shetlands and Orkneys, trying to spend as much time out of aircraft range as possible. I've always been a very cautious Kaleun. :D But oh my, does it take a long time to reach the Atlantic that way! Recently I've started taking a more direct route, and pass between the Orkneys and Shetlands with a little added risk. Besides the occasional DD sighting, it's been little different. I always wonder if real life Kaleuns regularly went this way.

So I shall be watching this thread intently for more information. Great topic :up:

And just for the record, I use the deck gun on small merchants (~1000t or less) in calm seas, or to finish off larger ships if necessary after a torpedo - I don't like using two fish on a 2000t ship! I try not to overuse the gun because it feels unrealistic to me.

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Thanks for kind words. :)

As to our patrol, we've just reached Wilhelmshaven, only once troubled by a task force presence by Norwegian shore (fortunately they didn't spot us, but that was close). The hull integrity occured to be ~92.5% after inspection in port, so my estimation was quite exact. We got flowers, fresh hot food and some metal badges, crosses and stars as well as a few sheets of stamped paper as a reward for sinking 96.900 Allied freighter tonnage. :smug: While our boat being repaired we head to the bar... We got enough of that salt water, time to get completely drunk. Long live the memory of our lost comrades! :dead:

[TomcatMVD]

Let us mourn the pain of having lost fellow sailors.
And let us be prepared for carrying on the revenge to the enemy's shore.
Drink fellow Kaleun, for a man who suffers on the loss of a brother, shall be respected by all men.
U-46 holds deep respect for your bravery on command and your even braver crew, they represent everything what a sailor should long to become.
Ahoy brother captain! Your effort makes the whole U-boat fleet a proud one!

U-46 Commander
Lt. Snr. Herrman "Tomcat" Fritz

[rik007]

If I check U-boot.net sections maps i notice that few U-boot have been sank in the North sea near the British coast. So that convinces me that the boots went to the Atlantic in the shortest way as possible.

The boots recieved commands from Uncle Karl and there was no much room as they relied on them in Wolfpacks tactics.