Not going to your patrol grid

[Blacklight]

Do you face any kind of repercusions if you feel that your patrol grid is in a too far away or dumb area and decide to patrol elsewhere ? Just curious.:hmm:

I'm driving a VIIB out of Wilhelmshaven and they pretty much want me to go down to the middle of the ocean west of Africa. Even running underwater most of the time to save fuel, I don't think I'll make it there and back on a full tank and I'm at a point early in the war where there's no milk cows.:shifty:

[Jonathan]

I do believe that you are hit for negative renown points.

[Blacklight]

BDU Obviously didn't look into my Uboat's fuel capacity before assigning this one.:nope: Maybe they're planning on arranging a ship to tow me back once I get there ?:shifty:

I wish I could call them back and say "Look you idiots !!! I'm driving a VIIB... not one of those "new fangled" IX boats of yours !!!" Wait... Bernard is one of my crew members. Maybe they want to put him in the middle of the ocean where everyone will be safe from him ? Or maybe... Bernard is also working for BDU and is handing out the orders ?:damn:

[vodkavera]

If you are running GWX 2,0 I don´t think you get
any renown at all for patroling your grid or negative renown for not doing it.
You just get renown for sinking ships.

/VV

[Fincuan]

Even running underwater most of the time to use the maximum amount of fuel

There, fixed it for you :lol:

[Abd_von_Mumit]

BDU Obviously didn't look into my Uboat's fuel capacity before assigning this one.:nope: Maybe they're planning on arranging a ship to tow me back once I get there ?:shifty:

I wish I could call them back and say "Look you idiots !!! I'm driving a VIIB... not one of those "new fangled" IX boats of yours !!!" Wait... Bernard is one of my crew members. Maybe they want to put him in the middle of the ocean where everyone will be safe from him ? Or maybe... Bernard is also working for BDU and is handing out the orders ?:damn:
Your VIIB should be able to do at least 20k km if you use your fuel wisely, and I mean without cheating like going underwater most the time. Just check carefully, what's the optimum speed - you do it by changing current speed (manually) up or down 0.25 knot, waiting a minute and asking your machinist for "maximum range at current speed". Going much too fast or much too slow all the time greatly reduces your range.

For VIIB type the "golden speed" is about 8.25 knts (inf fact it's more "engine effort" than "speed", but that's another topic).

Your patrol grid, as I estimte, is about 8k km far from Wilhelmshaven (going Northern route aroun GB), so you ARE able to get there and patroll it for a day. :) Also check when the milk cow in Cadiz will be available, it appears ther on February '40 AFAIR, so possibly it's going to be there just when you need it. :)

And NEVER disobey orders, Herr Kaleun.

[TomcatMVD]

I wish I could call them back and say "Look you idiots !!! I'm driving a VIIB... not one of those "new fangled" IX boats of yours !!!"
Yeah right... call Doenitz an idiot, that'll make him understand:hmm:
I think your scenario is not that complicated as long as you keep it wise on the fuel efficiency side, and do not mess around too much. Also, if it's quite early on war, you may want to try England's southern side... you will need to dive every so often but that's it.

[danlisa]

There's no penalty for not reaching/patrolling your assigned grid. However, as you are all excellent Kaleuns, you should of course follow your orders.:p

At the moment, GWX 2.0 will award renown for reaching/patrolling your grid. However, GWX 2.1 will remove this reward. Sorry, but it slipped through the net first time round.

[vodkavera]

There's no penalty for not reaching/patrolling your assigned grid. However, as you are all excellent Kaleuns, you should of course follow your orders.:p

At the moment, GWX 2.0 will award renown for reaching/patrolling your grid. However, GWX 2.1 will remove this reward. Sorry, but it slipped through the net first time round.

Oh man! I´ve lost a lot of renown because of that faulty info....... :damn:
Sometimes the only renown I get......:rotfl:


/VV

[danlisa]

Meh, I shouldn't worry about it. Call it practice for GWX 2.1.:lol:

[3Jane]

There's no penalty for not reaching/patrolling your assigned grid. However, as you are all excellent Kaleuns, you should of course follow your orders.:p

At the moment, GWX 2.0 will award renown for reaching/patrolling your grid. However, GWX 2.1 will remove this reward. Sorry, but it slipped through the net first time round.
If that is the case, I am not sure I will be using 2.1. As I see it, removing the renown from reaching your assigned grid simply turns every patrol into a 'NULL' grid assignement. If there is nothing to be gained or lost why not just head to the best hunting areas. Unless of course the negative renown is still in place for not reaching the grid square. But even so, simply dropping by the assigned square to avoid the negative renown then going on to more lucrative hunting areas, simply forces the player to make a side trip which doesn't really do anything for the game. Unless I am just not seeing the thinking behind it. If still in place, would the possibility of negative renown being awarded be removed after spending the 24 Hrs in the assigned grid.

[danlisa]

There is no negative renown for not going to your grid. The game would award you 400 renown for reaching & patrolling your grid, however it will not take any away. There is also no renown awarded for manually returning to base/port. It was broken in stock SH3.

If you don't like this aspect of GWX 2.1 you are if course welcome to stay with 2.0 but you will miss some fundamental fixes. Of course, adding the renown back in is easy.

Your call.

[STEED]

The whole stinking renown system should be dumped, if possible.

It's a tonnage war not a bloody points war. :x

[3Jane]

But I just don't understand the thinking behind that decision as regards the imersion, veriety and possibly the character of the simulation as a whole. Reducing it I could understand or putting negative renown in it's place, but as I say with no reason to go to a particular grid area just head for the convoy lanes and bottlenecks.

[Sniper_Fox]

so in stock is there no loss for not going? im in the med and it keeps telling me to go back through gibraltar! i made that trip once, im not friggin doin it again!!!!!!:damn:

[STEED]

so in stock is there no loss for not going? im in the med and it keeps telling me to go back through gibraltar! i made that trip once, im not friggin doin it again!!!!!!:damn:

You will not rec'd any points nor we you loose any.

[BulSoldier]

I think it should stay.It gives me an area witch i should patrol.If that happens i will never go to america or somewhere more than 1500km.

[Tobus]

Of course, adding the renown back in is easy.



Ooohhh, do tell us how?!

[danlisa]

Of course, adding the renown back in is easy.


Ooohhh, do tell us how?!

basic.cfg

[3Jane]

Of course, adding the renown back in is easy.


Ooohhh, do tell us how?!
basic.cfg

But in my view replacing the lost renown still won't replace the lost aspects of an imersive career.

[danlisa]

<sigh> My last word on this.

The basic.cfg holds the renown award for reaching/patroling & returning to base.

Add it back in, remove it or put it at an unusally high amount.

[Steel_Tomb]

so in stock is there no loss for not going? im in the med and it keeps telling me to go back through gibraltar! i made that trip once, im not friggin doin it again!!!!!!:damn:

I thought it was impossible to go back out through the straights of Gib? Because of the currents you cant get back out submerged.

[3Jane]

I would still like to know what the rationale was behind the decision though. I know about the basic config files, so if 2.1 removes the renown that aspect of it can be overridden by putting the renown scores back in as an automatic part of the normal game?. The whole point as I see it is, the renown for reaching your assigned grid position is an inducement to 'follow orders' as it were and thus adding to the imersive simulation of the career.

[danlisa]

I would still like to know what the rationale was behind the decision though.

The renown system in SH3 is flawed anyway. I think we all agree on that.

The decision to drop the awarded destination renown was made because in real life, the U-Boat crews wouldn't have been awarded anything, either in terms of notoriety or upgrades, for just following orders. So we are going to replicate this in game.

Yes, we are aware that this is just a game and as such is limited by it's set rules but there is no getting away from the fact that the primary role of the U-Boat was to sink shipping. Not to go to their assigned grid and then get a golden handshake.

Casual players will be able to head straight for the shipping lanes.

Realistic players will still follow their orders, patrol the assigned grid and then conduct a search for shipping.

Please remember, real life crews remained in their assigned grid or transited to the adjacent grid in search for shipping. They did not visit their grid just off the entrance of Gib and then transit all the way to tanker alley.

This change just brings another aspect/choice to the game.

[3Jane]

Thanks, I was just wondering about it all.

[flag4]

keep knots between 5 and 7. crank-up the tc's. be informed by your navigator as to how long your present speed will give you in distance, to your patrol grid; callculate this for your distance home....

....you'll make it !

[Subwolf]

The whole stinking renown system should be dumped, if possible.

It's a tonnage war not a bloody points war. :x

I couldn't agree more.

In my opinion GWX shouldn't mess with the renown system, or simply remove it if possible. They want to remove the patrol grid renown because it's unrealistic, fair enough, but then it becomes a lot harder to get upgrades etc, not very realistic either.

Medals and ranks should be based on tonnage sunk only, upgrades/new boat/better crew should become available after a specific number of successful patrols. Having to "buy" an officer with more skills isn't very realistic is it? GWX team please get rid of the renown.

[Blacklight]

Ok.. I'm going to go for it. I usually do run my Uboat on the surface around 8 knots. I'm going to head up north of Scapa Flow and then turn southwestward toward my assigned grid.

What's the best method I should use to conserve fuel so that I can drive myself back ? What I usually do is dive and go at about 4 knots then surface to recharge at around 8 knots, and then dive again...and repeat the process.

I always drive back to port after each mission and never warp back...and it looks like they just dropped a milk cow right near my patrol grid too. They must really love me !:shifty:

[Tobus]

Ok.. I'm going to go for it. I usually do run my Uboat on the surface around 8 knots. I'm going to head up north of Scapa Flow and then turn southwestward toward my assigned grid.

What's the best method I should use to conserve fuel so that I can drive myself back ? What I usually do is dive and go at about 4 knots then surface to recharge at around 8 knots, and then dive again...and repeat the process.

I always drive back to port after each mission and never warp back...and it looks like they just dropped a milk cow right near my patrol grid too. They must really love me !:shifty:

Well, going under isn't going to save you fuel. This because the diesels burn plenty more fuel to get the batteries full again. After surfacing and setting speed to 8 kts means your engines burn fuel at about a normal speed of 12 kts to both power the boat and charge the batteries.

What I normally do is set speed at 8 kts manually. You can let your navigator report on range on current speed while playing around with set speed. My experience is that 8 kts is the speed where uboats get the most range. Note that sailing deep is better in lousy weather in GWX2, because heavy seas and wind give your diesels much more work and thus lower fueleconomy.

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Well, going under isn't going to save you fuel. This because the diesels burn plenty more fuel to get the batteries full again. After surfacing and setting speed to 8 kts means your engines burn fuel at about a normal speed of 12 kts to both power the boat and charge the batteries.
As far as I know charging batteries doesn't consume any diesel fuel at all IN THE GAME. It's unrealistic, but probably not moddable (someone would have fixed it if it was).

Optimum speed for VIIb type is 8.25 knots and after upgrading with GW Kapselgeblase it's 8.5 knots. The value is different for other types of boats.

[Schwuppes]

I've dumped the stupid renown thing all together... its not like the commanders had to "buy" their equipment.
I just edited the basic cfg to have all u boats and equipment to cost me nothing.

And I'm not planning go overboard and buy 50 T5 torpedos for every patrol.... I will play my career within realistic boundries... just without the renown system.

Speaking of which:
What was the typical torpedo payload of a VII submaine?

Would a commander have the choice to equip only electric torpedos if he so chose?
And in the later part of the war how many acoustic torpedos would each boat have got allocated?

[Gezoes]

I will be editing the basic.cfg then. I have a question on this fuel issue though. Abt has a point.

I always use my full batteries until they are at 60% or so, submerged at 2-3 knts, then re-surface. However, I do not set the speed manually, just Langzame Fahrt voraus or what is it called (the second one). That way the engines will run at say, 5,6 knts because the rest is used for charging. When recharged, the speed returns to the usual 8,9.

I've done this in all my IX's and now VII's.

You bet ya my fuel last longer if I also use my batteries to the fullest. There is NO way you will get back from the US in a VIIC with 8 knts and as little diving as possible.

Batteries = free speed :yep:

[Sailor Steve]

Renown:
No, captains didn't have to 'buy' upgrades or especially qualified personel. However, as the devs explaine in the beginning, upgrades are free later on; that is, later in the war boats come with upgrades that you had to 'buy' earlier, because more successful captains were able to obtain the newest, best stuff earlier than anyone else. As for qualified men, the devs said that they wanted it to feel like the best guys wanted to serve with you and they would say "no" if they didn't respect you enough.

Maybe they should have made the renown 'invisible'. That way you would request equipment or personel and be granted or denied, and never be sure why. That would have been more realistic.

You bet ya my fuel last longer if I also use my batteries to the fullest. There is NO way you will get back from the US in a VIIC with 8 knts and as little diving as possible.

Batteries = free speed :yep:
Unfortunately that's exactly the opposite of the way it works in real life. The game helps you to cheat a lot if you know how to work it.

[kiwikapitan]

Well, going under isn't going to save you fuel. This because the diesels burn plenty more fuel to get the batteries full again. After surfacing and setting speed to 8 kts means your engines burn fuel at about a normal speed of 12 kts to both power the boat and charge the batteries. As far as I know charging batteries doesn't consume any diesel fuel at all IN THE GAME. It's unrealistic, but probably not moddable (someone would have fixed it if it was).

Optimum speed for VIIb type is 8.25 knots and after upgrading with GW Kapselgeblase it's 8.5 knots. The value is different for other types of boats.

Not true. :nope:

Recharging the batteries does use up diesel. Even just sitting on the surface at 0 kts on recharge will use up fuel. So you can't 'cheat' by just relying on the electrics. However it's not possible to run on the surface on the electric motors which is what a real u-boat could do to save fuel.

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Well, going under isn't going to save you fuel. This because the diesels burn plenty more fuel to get the batteries full again. After surfacing and setting speed to 8 kts means your engines burn fuel at about a normal speed of 12 kts to both power the boat and charge the batteries. As far as I know charging batteries doesn't consume any diesel fuel at all IN THE GAME. It's unrealistic, but probably not moddable (someone would have fixed it if it was).

Optimum speed for VIIb type is 8.25 knots and after upgrading with GW Kapselgeblase it's 8.5 knots. The value is different for other types of boats.

Not true. :nope:

Recharging the batteries does use up diesel. Even just sitting on the surface at 0 kts on recharge will use up fuel. So you can't 'cheat' by just relying on the electrics. However it's not possible to run on the surface on the electric motors which is what a real u-boat could do to save fuel.
1. As to consuming fuel or not, I'll wait for some modders' opinion - they usually know best for obvious reasons. I might be wrong, yes, but I'm still strongly convinced that loading batteries doesn't consume fuel at all IN SH3.

2. What do you mean saying that they used batteries for saving fuel? IRL using batteries doesn't help to save fuel, in fact it's an opposite, as you need more fuel to recharge the batteries after than you'd need to make the same distance. :hmm:

[VipertheSniper]

Hehe, I think the worst flaw in the game is in the XXI, ok it goes faster submerged than surfaced, but as far as I know because it had stronger electrical motors than diesels, ever tried to snorkel around with it in calm seas? Set speed to 8 knots and watch where the needle stops. At 10 knots... Correct me if I'm wrong but when you're submerged your boat creates more drag because more of it's surface is covered with water or not? Guess that's not taken into account by the game, only the maximum speed the boat can reach surfaced and submerged... I can get about 53.000km (IIRC) range out of the XXI that way, bad thing is you're prey for the airplanes, because early on you don't have that snorkel radarwarning reciever.

[Tobus]

Renown:
No, captains didn't have to 'buy' upgrades or especially qualified personel. However, as the devs explaine in the beginning, upgrades are free later on; that is, later in the war boats come with upgrades that you had to 'buy' earlier, because more successful captains were able to obtain the newest, best stuff earlier than anyone else. As for qualified men, the devs said that they wanted it to feel like the best guys wanted to serve with you and they would say "no" if they didn't respect you enough.

Maybe they should have made the renown 'invisible'. That way you would request equipment or personel and be granted or denied, and never be sure why. That would have been more realistic.

You bet ya my fuel last longer if I also use my batteries to the fullest. There is NO way you will get back from the US in a VIIC with 8 knts and as little diving as possible.

Batteries = free speed :yep:
Unfortunately that's exactly the opposite of the way it works in real life. The game helps you to cheat a lot if you know how to work it.

Ok , I tested this last night guys. Batteries half-emptied, type IXB, only GWX2 and OLC-GUI mods. Speed at surface set at 8 kts.
Rangereport current speed when recharging: 3392 km.
Rangereport current speed when NOT recharging: 6670 km.

Dunno if it is broke on other boattypes, but on the IXB is works as it would IRL.

[danlisa]

Now run the same test surfaced @ all stop. Crank up the TC.;)

Stooopido SH3.:damn:

[Sniper_Fox]

i asked for a max range when at all stop when recharging

N: Max Range 600 km :damn:

"I thought it was impossible to go back out through the straights of Gib? Because of the currents you cant get back out submerged." - Steel Tomb

I KNEW IT THOSE BASTARDS AT BDU ARE TRYING TO KILL ME!

[Sailor Steve]

Ok , I tested this last night guys. Batteries half-emptied, type IXB, only GWX2 and OLC-GUI mods. Speed at surface set at 8 kts.
Rangereport current speed when recharging: 3392 km.
Rangereport current speed when NOT recharging: 6670 km.

Dunno if it is broke on other boattypes, but on the IXB is works as it would IRL.
The problem with that kind of test is that it's calculating how far you can go with one diesel cruising and one recharging at full speed. Once you're done recharging the estimated range will go right back up again, and ruin the whole thing.

[Heibges]

If you use SH3 Commander, you can set your patrol grid to whatever you think is appropriate or realistic or fun (the choice is up to you).

8.25 is only the optimum speed for the type VII if time is an issue.

If time is not an issue, which it almost never is in the uboat war, the slowest speed eats the least fuel and is the most "efficient".

For example, in WWII Reinhardt Hardegan spent 23 days crossing the Atlantic practicing maximm fuel efficiency. Yet he had the fuel to make the return trip in only 10 days.

In regards to fuel, the goal should be to keep your boat at sea for 56 days if possible.

[Abd_von_Mumit]

8.25 is only the optimum speed for the type VII if time is an issue.

If time is not an issue, which it almost never is in the uboat war, the slowest speed eats the least fuel and is the most "efficient".
I don't understand it, could you make it more clear, please? :hmm:

I think time is not a factor here. IN SH3 any lower or higher speed with VIIB type boat will LOWER your maximum range. With higher speeds you move faster but burn the fuel like hell, with lower speeds you burn less fuel per a certain amount of time, but you also move even "more slower" - thus burning the same amount of fuel at slower speed reduces the distance you can make compared to the optimum value of 8.25 knts. Am I wrong?

[Sniper_Fox]

8kts is the prime speed for the IXB, anything lower or higher is a waste... especially lower... i can get about 40k klicks out of her at 8kts, thats far enough to go to the panama canal and have a joy ride on the western seaboard and back, ( rough estimate as i dont have exact figures off the top of my head)

[Tobus]

Ok , I tested this last night guys. Batteries half-emptied, type IXB, only GWX2 and OLC-GUI mods. Speed at surface set at 8 kts.
Rangereport current speed when recharging: 3392 km.
Rangereport current speed when NOT recharging: 6670 km.

Dunno if it is broke on other boattypes, but on the IXB is works as it would IRL.
The problem with that kind of test is that it's calculating how far you can go with one diesel cruising and one recharging at full speed. Once you're done recharging the estimated range will go right back up again, and ruin the whole thing.

Uhm, isn't that how it's supposed to go? Even lying still in the water on the surface will cost you fuel, since one of your diesels is running full speed on recharge mode?

[Storabrun]

Hehe, I think the worst flaw in the game is in the XXI, ok it goes faster submerged than surfaced, but as far as I know because it had stronger electrical motors than diesels, ever tried to snorkel around with it in calm seas? Set speed to 8 knots and watch where the needle stops. At 10 knots... Correct me if I'm wrong but when you're submerged your boat creates more drag because more of it's surface is covered with water or not? Guess that's not taken into account by the game, only the maximum speed the boat can reach surfaced and submerged... I can get about 53.000km (IIRC) range out of the XXI that way, bad thing is you're prey for the airplanes, because early on you don't have that snorkel radarwarning reciever.

But the XXI had lower drag submerged. It was designed for high underwater speed and really was the first submarine. Everything before is basically a surface vessel that can dive. You can look at swimmers for another example of lower drag submerged. They stay as long as possible under water at the start using only their legs for propulsion (its worth noting that the primary propulsion is the arms for crawl). Breast stokers even "submerge" during their swimming.

[Heibges]

8.25 is only the optimum speed for the type VII if time is an issue.

If time is not an issue, which it almost never is in the uboat war, the slowest speed eats the least fuel and is the most "efficient".
I don't understand it, could you make it more clear, please? :hmm:

I think time is not a factor here. IN SH3 any lower or higher speed with VIIB type boat will LOWER your maximum range. With higher speeds you move faster but burn the fuel like hell, with lower speeds you burn less fuel per a certain amount of time, but you also move even "more slower" - thus burning the same amount of fuel at slower speed reduces the distance you can make compared to the optimum value of 8.25 knts. Am I wrong?

I really haven't seen it work like that in SH3. I think the fuel use progression is geometric not arithmetic.

If you want to go to Capetown and back in a a 9B, you can do it by going Ahead Slow, and spending a lot of time underwater.

As I said, this is how Hardegan made it back and forth from the East Coast. He conserved enough fuel on his way there, that he had enough fuel remaining for a speedy trip home.

[Tobus]

I really haven't seen it work like that in SH3. I think the fuel use progression is geometric not arithmetic.

If you want to go to Capetown and back in a a 9B, you can do it by going Ahead Slow, and spending a lot of time underwater.

As I said, this is how Hardegan made it back and forth from the East Coast. He conserved enough fuel on his way there, that he had enough fuel remaining for a speedy trip home.


The comparison with Hardegen and his trip to the US coast to SH3 is wrong. IRL, a kaleun could and did run his ship on 1 diesel with low revolutions to get to a normal cruising speed of 8 kts, switching the used dieselengine every couple of hours to spread the use and wear. When he DID have to recharge batteries, its the same as in SH3: one engine for propulsion and one for recharging, but offcourse both engines are now using fuel!

We can't change engines in SH3, we can just set speed, be it manual or via a preset setting (langzahme fahrt, for instance), not how many and which engine to use, but do have the option to use 1 engine to recharge the batteries if nescessary. That 1 engine will recharge the batteries as fast as possible, aka, it will use fuel like running on flank speed, while the other make revs to maintain my set speed.

This modelling is basically wrong and causes the boat to have lesser range at a set speed when recharging the batteries then not. The speed attainable with only one engine turning 1 screw is also too high, but at least the fueleconomy seems comparable to real life.

In the end, it doesn't matter too much. On average, going too fast or too slow while cruising lessens the range you can get out of your dieseltanks. Compare it to a car: let it run idle and eventually your tank is empty but you're still in the same spot. Run it on too high revs and/or in a gear too low for miles and miles and, overheating aside, your fueleconomy will plummet.

But what you say about going to SA in a IXB on slow, with as much submerged time as possible, is off, both IRL as in SH3. I did a run on 8 kts from Wilhemshaven to BD41 in a IXB the other night. Taking into account the couple of lone merchants I chased down on the way there, I still had 85% diesel in the tanks, which would have been around 70% had I gone all the way to New York from BD41. No way I would make that in SH3 while going slow and 50% of the time submerged.

Change speeds, do a range-at-this-speed-report by your navigator and check the range mentioned. For extra spice, try to set (with non-100%-filled batteries) recharging on/off and do the reports. You''ll see i'm right.

[Sailor Steve]

Ok , I tested this last night guys. Batteries half-emptied, type IXB, only GWX2 and OLC-GUI mods. Speed at surface set at 8 kts.
Rangereport current speed when recharging: 3392 km.
Rangereport current speed when NOT recharging: 6670 km.

Dunno if it is broke on other boattypes, but on the IXB is works as it would IRL.
The problem with that kind of test is that it's calculating how far you can go with one diesel cruising and one recharging at full speed. Once you're done recharging the estimated range will go right back up again, and ruin the whole thing.

Uhm, isn't that how it's supposed to go? Even lying still in the water on the surface will cost you fuel, since one of your diesels is running full speed on recharge mode?
Sorry, I misunderstood. I'm so used to people bragging about extending range by diving and recharging, which shouldn't work...well, you know.:oops:

[Storabrun]

I think Tobus is right. I did some testing over a year ago and found that 3 knots submerged will give pretty much the same fuel economy as running at the surface at 11 knots for a IXB. But there are certainly ways to exploit the batteries if you dont mind cruising at 0-1 knots submerged for days and/or make a point out of never recharge your batteries fully. The batteries seem to recharge faster when they are low than almost full. And then you have this ability to always charge your batteries, even when out of diesel (but diesel is used to charge batteries when your tank isn't empty).

[Sniper_Fox]

this much is true, run your batteries at 1 knot and you'll run out of oxygen before you run out of batteries:rotfl:

save fuel, spend time.... your choice, but think about ti, your increasing your detecting range cause your submerged due to the fancy mechanism called the hydrophones. and at 1kt your hydrophones will detect crap that you cant even shoot at with the bismark. id rather have that then be WHIZZING around the atlantic seeing and hearing bugger all