Dear Joea - Americans over China pre WWII

[Wave Skipper]

have a good day

[Reaves]

I'd feel pretty comfindent that it did happen. But there is nothing wrong with it IMO. Just because China was at war with Japan pre Pearl Harbour (note: not pre ww2) doesn't mean the USA couldn't sell weapons and supplies to either nation.

Obviously Japan wouldn't be happy but back then the USA (and the allies) would have seen China as a more strategic ally due to the link with Russia and the war in Europe.

Before the USA entered WW2 many pilots flew for the RAF which is the same thing. It is also fact that some yanks fought for Germany which again isn't a bad thing, my own heritage is part German and without knowing how evil the Third Reich was I probably would have gone to fight for the fatherland. (If my mother wasn't English)

When it comes to suppling China with aircraft, one of the biggest events that caused the USA to join the Allies is because a Yankee ship got sunk by a German U-Boat because it was suspected that supplies were being transported.

I think the main thing here is that the USA views Pearl Harbour as an unwarrented attack on the USA but to be realistic Japan was being denied resources to fight China by America and unless they surrendered to China, there wasn't another choice. They needed the oil and other resources like rubber that indo china could supply. America and the British Commonwealth was aiding China by denying Japan those resources and Japan basically didn't take it kindly.

-Of course there is more to it but yeah... :88)

[joea]

Aww a thread for me. :lol: Ok I went over the top yesterday, still I do take issue with your historical schema, you just seem to want to fit everything into this schema with sometimes, IMHO, shaky evidence. Other times you are on more solid ground so yea I agree with you (Spanish-American war, or this Iran thing for example). I just hate the attitude of "dude I learned the truth and am not a sheeple anymore like you guys" that's all.

The US is just like any other country, acting in their interest and willing to change policy, I don't see an eternal policy of hidden conspiracies guiding it any more than any other power. Context counts for a lot. In the context of what we are discussing, the US did not actively take sides in the Sino-Japanese war when it started in 1937 (though they always had an "Open Door" policy, even in the 19th Century when so many were getting foreign concessions) despite the bombing of the Panay and the Rape of Nanking etc.

In 1940-41 though, it seemed that the Axis was triumphant so the context changed. So far I think we agree on these facts. What I don't agree with you guys is the attitude that somehow the US just choose to piss off the Japanese who were involved in a quarrel with their neighbour so they could get into the war (in Europe especially, for which there was no guarantee, after all Hitler did not have to declare war on the US). While I do not want to overstate the moral element, I am always astounded as to how people forget that China actually comes in 2nd place after the USSR in total war dead. The aggression by the Japanese militarists was at least as bad as that of the Nazis in Poland, the last and I would say the worst of the series of humliations by foreign countries. I honestly think people forget that, just like they forget there were other victims of Nazism besides Jews.

Of course I do not think we should forget the nasty things the Allies did, and I do agree there were some bad questionable interventions by the US since then.

Anyway, peace.


P.S. Lord of the Rings still rocks.

[Wave Skipper]

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:)

[Sailor Steve]

Dealing strictly with the Sino-Japanese war: the Chinese bought planes from anywhere they could get them, including American companies. They also hired mercenary pilots from wherever they could, and many of those were also Americans.

The same is true of the Republican side in the Spanish Civil War. American companies sold planes to whomever they could, and pilots flew for whoever paid the most, or whomever they liked. Doesn't mean the government was involved, even indirectly.

Of course it doesn't mean they weren't, either.

[Wave Skipper]

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[Wave Skipper]

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[joea]

I don't think you read a word of what I wrote, that article mentions Robert Stinnett who has been thoroughly debunked. I have an excellent article that debunks him if you want me to send it to you. For example, no one ever realises there was no way to be sure the US would end up at war with Germany if it was at war with Japan. The Tripartite Pact only took direct attacks against a member as a reason to go to war. Really I don't know how to argue with someone who thinks he found the real truth (as if any thinking person imagined governments are clean not the point) and is so short on facts.

[sonar732]

This situation goes with all accusations posted on a forum.

"Give me one theory, and I'll post 5 others that will debunk them."

Gotta love the internet and google. ;)

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[sonar732]

SO you are telling me someone has debunked Naval documents obtained by the Freedom of Information Act?

you are saying the documents obtained were faked from the US government archives?

And yes - it would be certain that Japan would lead to Germany, since the two were allied and Germany was helping Japan with information and technology. FDR would know that it was only a matter of time. Hitler knew this and decided to cut things short since he knew what was going to happen anyway. Debunkers are not always correct. If the documents are real and can be obtained from government sources, then that's that. If we had Japanese transmissions from Nov 1941 about the attack coming to Hawaii, then forget books, they are just dressing around the meat. The meat is the naval documents. I don't need a book for that.

SO you are telling me someone has debunked Naval documents obtained by the Freedom of Information Act?

You have proof that this message was not found in government docs? "the task force, keeping its movements strictly secret and maintaining close guard against submarines and aircraft, shall advance into Hawaiian waters, and upon the very opening of hostilities shall attack the main force of the United States fleet in Hawaii and deal it a mortal blow…”

You mean like the guy who claimed the US Navy shot down TWA flight 800?

[joea]

This situation goes with all accusations posted on a forum.

"Give me one theory, and I'll post 5 others that will debunk them."

Gotta love the internet and google. ;)

Except this is an academic article published in Intelligence and National Security called "Stinnett's Day of Deceit: Pearl Harbour Revisionism" by John C. Zimmerman that exposes the shoddy work done by some of these authors including Stinnett quited in WS article. One point is there is no evidence that the Kido Butai broke radio silence, on the contrary there is a lot to indicate they did guard it. About the November 25th message I'd want to see if that is a genuine decoded message and the context it was decoded in. Now does anyone want to read it or not??

Another point, FDR could not be sure that war with Japan would lead to war with Germany, how could anyone be sure? That is speculation and really difficult to prove in any case.

[August]

I like the Wiki article on Zimmermans work:

"These theories tend to founder on the logic of the situation. Had Roosevelt and other members of his administration known of the attack in advance, they would have been foolish to sacrifice one of the major instruments needed to win the war just to get the United States into it."

Makes sense. If the object was indeed to get Germany to declare against us that would have been very well served by ambushing and destroying the Japanese fleet before it could attack.

[Wave Skipper]

have a good day

[Wave Skipper]

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http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s209/seatco/NO1b-1.jpg

[sonar732]

My real point was not to argue old wars - it was to lay the ground work for removing apple pie and laying something higher and greater: acceptance of the final computation of civilizations - as they unify into the world wide super-entity.

Yes, I will try to find out what the FOIA acts were about that so-last-century history. But what I am going to do now is preach my love of Globalism, pc, and one world unity that you rebels are always resisting. Such resistance is futile.

Removing apple pie? One world unity? What planet are you from? Reminds me of a series of books Left Behind.

[August]

Last - August - go back and learn about 1941. FDR had run on a promise not to get the US into war. He had to have an incident to turn the over 90% of Americans who were against a war into favoring the war.
Maybe you ought to go back and learn about 1941 yourself.

First off Pearl Harbor was not the only target of the Japanese during the opening days of the war. There is no way that attacking our forces stationed in the Phillipines and on Guam and Wake islands would not have been enough to get the American people on board for a war against the Axis, so there was absolutely no need for FDR to sacrifice the fleet at Pearl Harbor.

Secondly, FDR was not some first term president. This was his THIRD term. The president who had led the country out of the woods of the Great Depression.

Why would you guys pretend that governments don't work behind the scenes? I know why. You are the sort that what mom and apple pie sotries about your nation. You do know I hope that FDR enacted perhaps more presidential orders that were later knocked down by the Supreme Court than any other president? I doubt you do.

What makes you think i pretend that? Because I don't think FDR was stupid? FDR was indeed planning for war. Planning against possible eventualities is something I would expect a good chief executive to do. But does all that translate into foreknowledge of the time and means of the Japanese attack as Stinnet claims? No it doesn't.

[Wave Skipper]

3-3=0

[sonar732]

I'll add to August's post.

The Naval thought at the time was a surface engagement based on dreadnoughts or battleships. Yes, with the successful attack on Taranto by the Brits and the simulated attack on the Panama Canal by the Saratoga and Lady Lex via Fleet Problem IX. The difference was that Pearl Harbor was only 40 feet deep and the Japanese planes were too fast for a standard torpedo to drop in that shallow of water. Aircraft Carrier tactics were still in their infancy as evident by the mutiple "Fleet Problem" exercises.

One month before FDR froze Japanese assests, he froze German and Italian assets. The oil embargo wasn't just against the Japanese, it was against all aggressor states.

[Wave Skipper]

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[joea]

the rat Robert B. Stinnett. Or that is what Joea says - I suppose Joea too has many battle stars from WWII. It seems that at least over a decade ago this rat Stinnet was some sort of friend of the Bush Family. And I find this about the rat while surfing around:



DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. I never said Stinnett was a rat. I expect your public apology for that remark. Then, if you want I'll e-mail you the article (I got it due to access from my former Uni account). Otherwise I'll be done with you. :down: