In memoriam - my first casualties ever

[Abd_von_Mumit]

I run a very interesting and "productive" patrol around BE59. It's my 19th GWX patrol and it's even more entertaining than the other. The shocking moment of it was loosing three crew members - my first loss of a man since I became a U-Boot captain (I got sunk three times before in my first GWX 3 careers, but then all the crew were lost, including me, so that's different). They were killed by a funnel of a sunken ship that was blown apart. The funnel fell on the boat, damaging it seriously and killing all the men but the WO. And, believe me, that was an experience... only being sunk by a destroyer 5 seconds after noticing it's presence was a bigger "wow". :)

U-52, a VIIB type U-Boot, under OberLeun. z. S. Herbert Mann lost during her last patrol:
- Bootsmann Fritz-Walter Hoff, torpedoman, completed 2 patrols, awarded U-Boot-Kriegsabzeichen,
- Matrosengefreiter Ernst Oehring, completed 2 patrols,
- Bootsmann Helmut Wessoly, torpedoman, completed 2 patrols, awarded U-Boot-Kriegsabzeichen.
They were killed while performing their duties, manning the deck gun. Shrapnels from an exploding allied freighter and the power of huge blast pushed them into waves seconds after successful sinking of the ship. They will be awarded Iron Cross II Class as soon as the boat reaches the home base. All the crew will attend their symbolic funeral and we also gather some funds for the families.

Watch Officer responsible for this incident will face the court – he should have known that coming so close to the enemy ship can seriously endanger the boat and her crew.

[kenijaru]

all hands on deck.... salute! (and sing ich hatt ein kameraden!)

now, shall i ask you, what were you doing that was more important than being on the bridge commanding an hostile action agains a target to ensure the safety of both you'r ship and crew?


ps: no dissrespect intended, i'm just... ehem... roleplaying?

[Oberon]

May they rest in peace, Kameraden zur see.

U-35 almost had a similar incident recently whilst attempting to aid survivors from a torpedoed Passenger/Cargo, I have no idea what the Cargo of that ship was, but it exploded quite violently whilst we were close, damaging the front deck of the boat and the torpedo room, sonar/radio room and fore crew quarters. Fortunately it was minor damage, a couple of dents, shattered glass, that kind of thing, but it was quite a shock for us in the Conning tower, thank god we could shelter behind the steel from the flying splinters, the survivors in the water were not so lucky, but we helped them co-ordinate themselves onto lifeboats, gave them a compass, directions to land, food and water and then went on our way.

The next merchant we sank, we approached a bit more cautiously.

[Subject]

now, shall i ask you, what were you doing that was more important than being on the bridge commanding an hostile action agains a target to ensure the safety of both you'r ship and crew?Exactly my first thought! I would like to defend your WO, as he is not the captain of the ship.

:hmm: perhaps a public trial?

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Well... U-Boot is not a one-man-device and a captain cannot count on himself alone in any circumstances. One must trust his people and gradually let them perform more and more responsible duties as time passes. The Watch Officer that I ordered him to lead the action, OberLeun. z. S. Kurt Zapf, was a skilled and talented submariner that gained a lot of experience during his previous two quite successfull patrolls. He was to be transfered after our return to take command of his own boat.

As all the circumstances seemed to be very good for us, I decided to let him lead the action as a final step on his way to promotion/transfer. Weather was excellent, wind 0, visibility unrestricted, the crew was rested and with high morale after sinking some freighters in last several days. Our target was slow and apparently unarmed, no escort nor any other shipping seemed to be around (we checked it carefully also by hydrophone), there was no danger of encountering enemy aircraft.

So, considering all the above mentioned circumstances, I decided to leave the bridge to let the WO do his job, went down and started preparing some paper work usuall for transfer procedures. My last words before leaving the bridge were: "Take the commad, report only on case of any problems. If in fear or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. Good luck!".

And he totally screwed it up. I assume my decision to put him in final test of his commanding abilities, that costed lifes of three U-52 crewmembers, possibly saved much more lives of the boat that he is now NOT going to take...

:)

[iambecomelife]

Crushed by a falling funnel... :rotfl:

A long time ago I used the deck gun on an ammunition freighter and closed to within 100 Meters. What happened? Let's just say I didn't have to worry about explaining that stupid move back at headquarters. :doh:

[nikimcbee]

Crushed by a falling funnel... :rotfl:

A long time ago I used the deck gun on an ammunition freighter and closed to within 100 Meters. What happened? Let's just say I didn't have to worry about explaining that stupid move back at headquarters. :doh:

...so you had some paperwork to fill out when you got back to port?:cool: :oops:

[TomcatMVD]

Watch Officer responsible for this incident will face the court – he should have known that coming so close to the enemy ship can seriously endanger the boat and her crew.
I'd say that's not fair. The Kaleun must assume all responsibilities.:nope:
Unless you WO was Bernard, in which case, such an opportunity to get rid of him could not be wasted!:hmm:

[Jimbuna]

Crushed by a falling funnel... :rotfl:

A long time ago I used the deck gun on an ammunition freighter and closed to within 100 Meters. What happened? Let's just say I didn't have to worry about explaining that stupid move back at headquarters. :doh:

...so you had some paperwork to fill out when you got back to port?:cool: :oops:

I think what he meant was.....there was nothing left of his boat or crew to bother returning to port and that paperwork with :lol:

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Watch Officer responsible for this incident will face the court – he should have known that coming so close to the enemy ship can seriously endanger the boat and her crew.
I'd say that's not fair. The Kaleun must assume all responsibilities.:nope:
Unless you WO was Bernard, in which case, such an opportunity to get rid of him could not be wasted!:hmm:
You are probably right. I must reconsider the issue. The fact is I never liked the guy, so I'll probably just push him into water when noone sees and blame him for all the problems on the boat. :)

And more seriously - what would happen in real life after such an accident/incident? Would anyone be charged or punished, like the captain? What was the usual way of dealing with the situation? Are there any records? I ask because if it's the U-Boot commander who would be held responsible for the deaths, I should end my career after returning to base with "jailed" status (at least that would be a bit better than "sunk", "lost" or "killed in action"). :)

[TomcatMVD]

Don't know if it helps picture things better:up:

Q. What steps did you, as Supreme Commander of the U-boats, take when you heard of such a case, a case in which a U-boat had transgressed its orders, even if by mistake?
A. The main thing was the preventive measures, and that was done through training the U-boat Commanders to be thorough, and to investigate quietly and carefully before taking action. Moreover, this training had already been carried on, even in peacetime, so that our U-boat organization bore the motto: "We are a respectable firm."
The second measure was that during the war every commander, before leaving port, and every commander after returning from his mission, had to report to me personally. Before leaving port he had to be briefed by me.
Q. I beg your pardon, Grand Admiral. That did not continue when you were Supreme Commander, did it? A. That was limited after 1943, after I had become Supreme Commander. Even then it did continue. In any case, it was the definite rule during my time as Supreme Commander of U- boats, so that a commander's mission was considered completed and satisfactory only after he had reported to me in full detail. If, on such an occasion, I could establish negligence, then I made my decision according to the nature of the case, as to whether disciplinary action or court martial proceedings and punishment had to take place.

[Sailor Steve]

Here is the reality: middle of the night, captain is asleep in his bunk. Office Of the Deck doesn't see bigger ship coming. Ship is rammed and sunk - 74 lives lost. It was the captain who was court-martialled and lost his command.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Frank_E._Evans_(DD-754 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Frank_E._Evans_%28DD-754))

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Thanks for the link, Sailor Steve. But I think we should not compare US Navy to U-Bootsflotte too easily. These two are two different worlds as far as I understand history. :) There is also a significant difference in these two situations - as stated in the USS Frank E. Evans article, a "junior officer who was not qualified to stand watch, having failed at his previous board" led the ship to collision, while in U-52's case the WO was a trained and experienced officr who was to take command of his own boat in a month or two (and I really planned to have him transfered).

On the other hand I understand the rule "the commander is always responsible for everything that happens on his ship", so I'm ready to be punished (as a part of roleplay thing). As there is no in-game court or a BdU that could make the decision, the only way is to ask you - I mean the community - to play BdU's (or jury's) role and decide whether I should:
- stay at command,
- be downgraded (I mean opposite for promoted) and to what rank,
- be expelled from the U-Bootsflotte,
- be transfered to a less responsible station (like training flotilla),
- be trialed and sentenced (to: death, konzentrationslager, jail, any other appropriate punishment).
If you, Sailor Steve, would agree to become a jury in this case, it would be an honour for me. I'd be glad to answer any question, provide any information or evidence, and I'd of course obey any jury's judgment.

TomcatMVD - big thanks for the quote. What's the source of it? A historical background like this is very helpful, as it lets understand the way of thinking and making decisions by people, not only the cold facts.

[kenijaru]

If you were to be transfered, i'd say it would NOT be to a training flotilla, but rather, a desktop job in an office doing boring and tedious paperwork :S


i'd like to preside the defence of the watch officer. (as part of a RPing... this could be nice, we could start a new fashion :lol:)

[Jimbuna]

Brings to mind how Kretschmer was captured. His boat was on the surface during the night and he was below writing logs. The boat was suprised by an escort and the junior officer on watch did not carry out his Kaleuns standing orders which were to try to escape on the surface.
The boat dived, received depth charge damage, was forced to the surface etc. etc. http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[Sniper_Fox]

its not the watch officers job to command the boats manouvers... thats the captains job...


its you that needs to be on trial!:stare:

[Sniper_Fox]

Unless you WO was Bernard, in which case, such an opportunity to get rid of him could not be wasted!:hmm:

friggin bernard, hes always screwin up and costing many lives... someone ought to either drown him or use him as shark bait for some exotic sharks for a delecacy for the crew :lol:

[TomcatMVD]

TomcatMVD - big thanks for the quote. What's the source of it? A historical background like this is very helpful, as it lets understand the way of thinking and making decisions by people, not only the cold facts.
http://www.nizkor.org/

Found it by googling, it's a transcript of part of the Nuremberg trials

[NealT]

Thanks for the link, Sailor Steve. But I think we should not compare US Navy to U-Bootsflotte too easily. These two are two different worlds as far as I understand history. :) There is also a significant difference in these two situations - as stated in the USS Frank E. Evans article, a "junior officer who was not qualified to stand watch, having failed at his previous board" led the ship to collision, while in U-52's case the WO was a trained and experienced officr who was to take command of his own boat in a month or two (and I really planned to have him transfered).

On the other hand I understand the rule "the commander is always responsible for everything that happens on his ship", so I'm ready to be punished (as a part of roleplay thing). As there is no in-game court or a BdU that could make the decision, the only way is to ask you - I mean the community - to play BdU's (or jury's) role and decide whether I should:
- stay at command,
- be downgraded (I mean opposite for promoted) and to what rank,
- be expelled from the U-Bootsflotte,
- be transfered to a less responsible station (like training flotilla),
- be trialed and sentenced (to: death, konzentrationslager, jail, any other appropriate punishment).
If you, Sailor Steve, would agree to become a jury in this case, it would be an honour for me. I'd be glad to answer any question, provide any information or evidence, and I'd of course obey any jury's judgment.

TomcatMVD - big thanks for the quote. What's the source of it? A historical background like this is very helpful, as it lets understand the way of thinking and making decisions by people, not only the cold facts.

In the spirit of doing what you asked? My answer is...

TO THE EASTERN FRONT FOR YOU!

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Sailor Steve]

If it was me, I'd make a deal with the officer in question: Advise him not to get so close next time, and let it go at that. Nobody gets blamed, and everybody goes home happy (except the unfortunately dead sailors, of course).

Of course I speak from the vantage point of experience - during the gunnery training mission I got too close to a tanker, which then exploded, killing myself and everyone else on the bridge, including one of the Kriegsmarine's most beloved teachers. I wish I could have lived to see the look on the faces of the rest of the crew when they came up to see what happened!:o:rotfl:

[TomcatMVD]

Does shrapnel damage the U-boat on stock SHIII?

[Uncle Goose]

Don't know about that in the stock game but a plane crashing on your sub will create serious damage or even sink your sub (had this a few times) so watch out with shooting B24's out of the air if they come straight at you.

[Subject]

...I decided to leave the bridge to let the WO do his job, went down and started preparing some paper work usuall for transfer procedures. My last words before leaving the bridge were: "Take the commad, report only on case of any problems. If in fear or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. Good luck!".I stand corrected, Sir! Didn't know or think of that part. Of course you can't be awake all time and command was duly transferred. Shoot the *beep* - or maybe just a hard reprimande. You can be sure neither him - or yourself - will make that mistake again. If you let him go, you will all gain something... :hmm:
In the end that may even be the hardest verdict - he must live on, knowing he was the cause of killed comrades...

[Abd_von_Mumit]

In the spirit of doing what you asked? My answer is...

TO THE EASTERN FRONT FOR YOU!
There is no such a thing in February '40, Poland has been liberated allready. Now we are struggling to liberate France, but that' West undoubtedly. :arrgh!:

If it was me, I'd make a deal with the officer in question: Advise him not to get so close next time, and let it go at that. Nobody gets blamed, and everybody goes home happy (except the unfortunately dead sailors, of course).

But there is still the moment of going back to base and reporting at BdU. After rethinking the cse I'll skip the WO part and I'll just say "WE have been to close", takieng all responsibility. At the same time I'm going to ask for the WO to be transfered.

I hope BdU will be more excited with the 97k tonnage sunk than the 3 lost men. ;)

Of course I speak from the vantage point of experience - during the gunnery training mission I got too close to a tanker, which then exploded, killing myself and everyone else on the bridge, including one of the Kriegsmarine's most beloved teachers. I wish I could have lived to see the look on the faces of the rest of the crew when they came up to see what happened!:o:rotfl:
:)