Why brag about manual targetting?

[Fenris_Wolf]

Just curious to find out. As I have seen, many people play at full realism except manual targetting, and to me atleast that's understandable.

I don't use manual targetting because it takes a lot of time when done each and every time and it asks me to churn my few working brain cells with very simple yet highly repetitive and boring geometry and newton's laws of motion numericals. It's the stuff taught in schools, nothing extraordinary.

And doing all that is not bad at all. What I find tedious is the requirement to constantly alt+tab out of the game and use some add-on or program to solve the data you have observed from the periscope with (or without) your knowledge of geometry and physics.

Alternatively, some people just fire at extremely close range with fast speed torpedo setting and a bit of experience which also works well, but both these methods are not really something to brag about imho.

If I do use manual targetting, since surveying with and without optical instruments is a part of my professional expertise (as an engineer), I can figure out torpedo solutions on the fly but am I really going to be arsed enough to do that? Nopes! I leave all that stuff on my desk at work, and certainly don't like to use it in a game where I'm engrossed with other stuff like role playing, overall strategies, daring / experiment / exploration / gloating over my victim's misfortune.

Sorry but in my book, a game is for entertainment! :sunny:

So is there some aspect of it that I've overlooked?

[Albrecht Von Hesse]

Actually, the game itself does the computations using the TDC. Range is calculated by selecting the correct ship then adjusting the stadiometer (?) lines to bracket the waterline and top of the mast. AoB is either a matter of experience at estimating or can be figured by marking the ship's course over time. And speed is also automatically (although not always terribly accurately) calculated by locking the periscope/UZO onto the ship then selecting speed then clicking the stopwatch on the notepad. Ther should be no reason to leave the SHIII game window to perform any of the calculations required for manual targeting.

Unfortunately I'm at work and can't be more detailed but, if no one else helps you before I get home (which I highly doubt; there are lots of helpful people here --smiles--) I'll try and give you more details.

Happy hunting!

[Wilcke]

... I whole heartedly agree with you....SH3 is scaleable for all tastes and skill levels. I thoroughly enjoy it!

[TomcatMVD]

When it comes to use manual targeting, the only thing you calculate by your own is the AoB, because the range is given by the system when you tell it where the top and where the bottom of the target are, and the speed calculation is just a matter of looking at the target for more than 10 seconds.
Someone said that this is the way it was done in reality, the Kaleun would take those measures and forward that info to the WO for him to enter that into the TDC, which would, on its own, actaully "calculate" the solution.
I find it a lot more rewarding to take those measures myself and score a hit on a ship, but it's totally understandable that there's people who does not like or does not think that doing it that way is either enjoyable or nice. And that's the cool thing about these sort of sims... they can be played at any level, by any user, from the most arcade-player to the hardcore die-hard simmer.

[Sailor Steve]

Well, in reality the Weapons Officer would take the information from the captain and do the calculations. Unfortunately the WO in the game is perfect, does calculations instantly, never makes mistakes and can identify the target when to my eyes it's still not much more than a blur in the distance. It would be much better if he couldn't make a speed judgement until at least two separate sightings had been taken, and his guess should improve with more 'peeks'.

It's good that the game can be played in many ways. I agree that doing it yourself is something to strive for, but it's not the be-all end-all that some seem to make it. I will never pause the game to use the whiz-wheel or make calculations; that shoud be done the way they did it - in real time.

[GoldenRivet]

you dont have to alt tab out.

Speed = Distance/Time

take the distance the target displaced, and divide by the time it took for the target to cover that distance, you now have your speed.

but in SH3 you have to worry about the conversion of speed in KMph to Knots. which takes a little longer.

What i have done, is plot solutions on paper in my full real campaign:

just make calculations before hand and create a chart as i have done...

1 minute observation chart

distance / speed

100 meters = 3kts
150 meters = 5 kts
200 meters = 6 kts
250 meters = 8 kts
300 meters = 10 kts
350 meters = 11 kts
400 meters = 13 kts
450 meters = 15 kts
500 meters = 16 kts
550 meters = 18 kts
600 meters = 20 kts
(etc. up to 30 knots)

repeat for 2 minute observation up and if you like 3:15 observation, print the chart and play SH3... now, whenever you are plotting the solution, you kow that when the ship covered X distance... the approx speed is XX kts.

---

on the other hand you are partly correct, a game is for entertainment... but what you are dealing with is a "simulation" which in some people's book is played for realism, challenge, historical accuracy and educational purposes. if you went out on a patrol and sank 150K tons without manual targeting you really didnt do anything but click a red button :hmm: - true you may have had some close calls and done a great job in the stealth department, but the PC did all the real work... but if you accomplish the same feat with manual targeting... you worked for and earned every ton.

Edit: on sailor steves comment - i cant stand the perfection and accuracy of the weapons officer, in my non -full realism campaigns i have adopted the following policy... when i tell the WO to plot a solution, i start the clock, and i run the time for 3 minutes. once the 3 minutes is up i have him plot another one (for the most recent data) and then i shoot. this simulates the fact that it takes the weapons officer a couple of minutes to gather target data and enter it into the TDC etc.

[jmr]

As far as alt-tab is concerned you can run the game in a window if you so choose.

Like Wilcke said, the difficulty options are there to suit your play style and I too detest the manual versus auto targeting pissing matches. You see the same drama in the combat flight sim forums as well. There's no need to knock another's difficulty settings.

What does irk me are those who brag about tonnage using auto targeting options. It's a bit like bragging about doing stunts on your BMX bike as a kid to your buddies but you conveniently leave out the part about the attached training wheels.

[GoldenRivet]

As far as alt-tab is concerned you can run the game in a window if you so choose.

Like Wilcke said, the difficulty options are there to suit your play style and I too detest the manual versus auto targeting pissing matches. You see the same drama in the combat flight sim forums as well. There's no need to knock another's difficulty settings.

What does irk me are those who brag about tonnage using auto targeting options. It's a bit like bragging about doing stunts on your BMX bike as a kid to your buddies but you conveniently leave out the part about the attached training wheels.

agreed... i try not to put down others play styles but i feverishly disagree with people bragging about their 150K ton patrols when all they did was click a couple of buttons... the tonnage was not really "earned" - see my previous posting

[Wave Skipper]

I allow intant targeting in heavy situations - like big storms with rain and fog - but I still do it myself often simply because the computer version always aims for the center of a ship. You really can't get creative with your torpedo shots unless you do the calcs yourself. I do wish there was a way to get rid of the instant calcs in the ingame aiming - such as a delay of 6 seconds and a 5% margin of error.

[BulSoldier]

Everyone decides how to play and witch one gives him most fun.I prefer playing at 100% and using OLC GUI (1.1.4) mod witch give really interesting way and more realistic(?) to gather solutions.It takes time to get used to it but in the end i find it much more fun.It takes a lot of time to plot a solution but if everything works fine the happienes of a sinking ship is unmatched :)

[Penelope_Grey]

I am an auto targeting player. Could I learn to manual target, yes, probably. But I won't because when I did I found it fiddly and frankly a bit of an immersion killer as its too much to do I feel especially given the constrictions of the game. I control an entire submarine using one hand and a mouse. True... I got my crew they only do so much though... not to mention I have to keep tabs on the enemy not only that... after all my hard work... I still like to win when I play.

What does irk me are those who brag about tonnage using auto targeting options. It's a bit like bragging about doing stunts on your BMX bike as a kid to your buddies but you conveniently leave out the part about the attached training wheels.

IMO we have a right to brag if we so choose. Sure the PC did the donkey work in working out the solution, but we still had to find the target, get to firing position, decide where best to shoot surive the attack etc etc... whats the point in having a dog if you bark yourself?

Conversely the flip side is, I hate how manual targeters have this "Big I am" attitude sometimes it feels like we are being looked down on for our not using auto targeting. Am I wrong? possible... However that is what it feels like sometimes. Though I do accept the fact I could have a chip on me shoulder for people doing something I won't do.

true you may have had some close calls and done a great job in the stealth department, but the PC did all the real work... but if you accomplish the same feat with manual targeting... you worked for and earned every ton.

But when I read comments like that GoldenRivet... I wonder... maybe I am right about feeling like a second class citizen round here....

I may not use manual targetig or play at the coveted and sacred "100%" but I still have a right to come on here and share my successess if I like. Irks you? It shouldn't. Its called community and that door swings both ways... if we can't speak about our experiences in confidence... what can we do? I take the time to play the game and hunt the targets... therefore I still earned every ton. Immaterial to what guys like yourselves and others in the Manual targeting camp think.

I hate how auto targeting is so readily dismissed as the "easy option" the "Training wheels" the "casual players method" its not fair and its elitist. IMO if a guy plays on 0% realism and he sinks 60,000 tons... thats great regardless, he is doing the best he can within his capacity to play.

At the end of the day we are all there to sink ships... how we do it is our personal business. :up:

[johan_d]

Penelope is right, whats the use of having a crew when you do it all for yourself?
Let Bernard do his job!

[Madox58]

I don't feel any of us should put anyone else down for how they play.
Me?
I'm so BAD that if I attempt to go above 28% realizume?
All the crew jump over board!!!
:nope:
And that's stock SH3!!!
:o
With auto targeting?
I MISS!!!
:damn:
I tried a Homing torp once.
It sunk me.
:oops:
And I have found the bottom so often,
(with deadly results)
That I modded my sub so it only goes so deep
when I hit C.
:cry:
Play how you want I say!!
:rock:
But don't ask me how to Baby down GWX!!!
:stare:
If ya can't run with the Wolves?
Stay on the porch!!
:rotfl:

[von Zelda]

A good understanding of manual targeting comes in handy when your target is zig-zaging. For example, you've hit your target with a torpedo or two but it does not sink, thus it begins to zig-zag as its speed begins to reduce.

Auto mode may give you a target speed but it will be incorrect. What you really need is its relative speed from point A to point B which will be less than its actual speed due to the zig-zags. Plus, the target speed will slowly reduce due to the slow rate of sinking that is going on.

Also, the auto mode will not give you the correct AOB due to the zig-zags. You need to use the tagret's original base course to calculate the AOB.

Distance to target (distance of torpedo run) is not critical as long as the torpedo offset angle is less than 15-degrees (you're shooting straight ahead). The greater the torpedo has to turn, the more significant the target distance will be.

Hope this is helpful.

[Madox58]

Now my head hurts!!!
:dead:

[GoldenRivet]

I may not use manual targetig or play at the coveted and sacred "100%" but I still have a right to come on here and share my successess if I like.
absolutely - you should be able to come on and share your successes. i agree completely.

sharing your success by telling the story if how you stalked up on a convoy and sank a tanker and a battleship is wonderful and makes for a good and often educational read. part of the difficulty and fun in SH3 is setting up the attack and then surviving the enemy response.

it doesnt irk me one bit to see those stories every day.

What IS annoying are the rare... and i do mean RARE... reports of a "God's gift to the world type sub skipper" who beats his chest as he recounts the story of how he completeley decimated an entire convoy for 100K tons in a matter of about 5 and a half minutes. with lines like "Escorts? no problem! just wait until they are headed right for you and have the weapons officer plot a quick solution and when they are within 500 meters just shove a torpedo down their throats!" - do this on 100% realism or with manual targeting and you will be sleeping with the fishes - eternally!

just take notice that there is a vast difference between "sharing yoru success" and out right bragging about sinking half the worlds merchant population on GWX2 and touting about how GWX was supposed to be hard (not that penny ever did that... just an example)

[Madox58]

GWX 2.0 is easy!
IF!! And I do mean IF!!!
You have my weapons!!!
:rotfl:
Hords of Horton Bombers escorted by ME-262's!!!

Not to mention the Modified V1's!
:o

But, it's my game install and I don't post brags about
takeing out entire convoys with one shot.

I also don't release most of what i do because they are
test things that help me define limitations.

[XLjedi]

For me, the game would be a little dull (or too easy) without the TDC interaction. That's actually the part that I find most satisfying. I just don't get that excited over the auto-targetted hits. But that's just me... and how I like to play the game.

You should play it with whatever settings makes it the most enjoyable for you. :yep:

Err... was someone actually bragging about that?

[Riggsie15]

Look play how you want. I partially cheat, I do do manual targeting but once the info is put into the TDC I go to the attack map and look at th erun lines of the torps. If I don't like it I ether go back to the scope and get more accurate info or tweak the solution on the attack map. AS for AOB calculation I sometimes not all the time go to the nav map and use the protractor.

Even when the ship is zig-zagging, manual targeting isn't that hard; you just aim up for a 90 degree shot and and when the timing is right quickly redo the calculations and fire away.

I'm fine with this method be cause it still dosen't give a perfect down the center shot and in real life the WO madethe calculations but I also know in some US boats it was also the WO who looked down the scope and gathered the info.

[_Seth_]

You should play it with whatever settings makes it the most enjoyable for you. :yep:

:up::up::up: Hear hear!!

[Ryan9118]

I like to play with manual targetting because I like the challenge. I don't feel I'm better than anybody for using it. Actually on the contrary, I'm normally pretty terrible at anything other than a 90* shot within 1000 meters on a clear sunny day with no wind. But doing 100% realism on SH3 is no different than turning off all the driving aids when I play my racing games. I like it for the challenge. Normally the games that get boring quick are the ones that you can master within a day or two. Even if you use auto-targetting, there are other aspects of SH3 you need to learn to stay afloat.

The one thing I really hate about manual targetting is that I haven't played the game in a long time. I'm going to have to re-read and re-learn everything I used before just so I can launch a torpedo... :rotfl:

[CCIP]

I don't think people should put others down for not using it, but certainly bragging about it is valid! Give the realism chaps a break, too. As said before, they put in that much more work into their kills, so they sure have the bragging rights for doing it.

Personally, I don't see a point in not using manual targeting anyway. I don't, but I rarely use TDC also - I just put myself in positions where I can make manually-aimed snapshots and be sure that most of my fish hit. And for the occasional shot, the TDC isn't horribly hard to program. I would also prefer to have a WO helping me with solutions, but only if his solutions had a less-than-laserlike accuracy. For me it takes the fun out of the best part of the game, knowing that I won't miss when it comes down to it. It's sorta like flying a flight sim and letting the autopilot do the landing for me :p

[Canovaro]

I believe it's fine to brag about anything you achieve in this game. That's also what this forum is for. Let us hear about that 100+ escorts you destroyed. I would never engage a single escort. But your story is great all the same.
Looking down on somebody who plays differently is dumb however, because you can always learn something from somebody who sees and enjoys things in a different way or on another level. And if another player is not as exprienced or as you are, then just help him or her out.

[Fenris_Wolf]

I would like to add to the discussion that, with all due respect, I really doubt many people can achieve 150k tonnage with the WO assistance, or stay in a 500m radius of a black swan for more than a few seconds, let alone sink it in a trivial fashion.

Reading some of the statements, I have to say that non-manual targetting does not trivialize anything other than the fact that it requires yet more time in a situation where you're already juggling with enough apples. When you sink convoy escorts you have to establish a plan first of all, intercept and position yourself while observing them closely, ensure you're perfectly stealthed, time it with the pathing routines of the escort and then sink it, and even then (with non-manual targetting) it's way too risky due to there being multiple escorts. Sometimes you shadow it for days and keep disengaging/re-engaging if taking out the escorts is too risky.

My point is; There are always a lot of critically important things going on that require your constant focus, devotion and skills. And like I said, try achieving 150k tonnage without manual targetting, you'll find that the reality is far from how you've put it, i.e., mere clicking of a red button. :roll:

I don't recall preparing torpedo solutions was even an issue historically. Atleast I've yet to come across such an account. But it's the hardcore simulation person's thing, the extra topping, the flavor you like. Enjoy it to the hilt but please don't get carried away. So yes, let's have some mutual acknowledgement and let's not make overstatements. ;)

[Kpt. Lehmann]

As a footnote... and speaking in terms of 'realistic play':

Ya shouldn't be wasting torpedoes on escorts.

The tonnage is in the convoy... not with taking out the escorts.

U-boats sank very few escorts in RL. It was generally frowned on.

I think that a player can use WO assistance to plot torpedo solutions and still avoid super-huge-fake-uber tonnage hauls... if they 'choose to play realistically' otherwise.

However, belittling anyone who chooses to increase their realism selections over time as they learn, is simply rude.

Hell. I haven't mastered manual targetting either... I'm simply too busy working on GWX related matters to be bothered with it. I fully intend to better understand it in quieter days to come... when I get around to it though. All I need to know for now is already clear. GWX does not break manual targetting in SH3... and my folder full of downloaded manual targetting information will still be there whenever I'm ready for it.

Sure manual targetting is the more difficult way to go... and those who can should be proud that they can do it... but there is far more to SH3 than firing torpedoes... such as making good decisions that keep your crew alive.

Personally, what irritates me to no end, is people who knowingly use use game exploits/blatant cheats to gain an advantage... and post said game exploitations all over the place to spoil it for everyone.

Once you learn of a game exploitation... you cannot unlearn it.

[Penelope_Grey]

I don't think people should put others down for not using it, but certainly bragging about it is valid! Give the realism chaps a break, too. As said before, they put in that much more work into their kills, so they sure have the bragging rights for doing it.
LOL with all due respect, the realism core do get their break and their kudos... however while they may arguably put more "work" into their attacks.

But when I read comments like "Training wheels" "cheating way" "point and shoot" etc and they do come up in threads... I think to myself what a second class Kaleun I am, for using auto and I don't like to be made to feel that..... when they give me a break. I'll give them one back. I'm sick of seeing some 100% realism people round here insinuate that people who auto target and dont play at 100% realism... like me... are "cheats" and other such adjectives.

@KL I agree 100% with you. Game exploits suck.:nope:

[Jimbuna]

I remember about 23 years back when I played darts to a high standard, almost professionally because on occasion the odd bank note would change hands.
It was 1984 (IIRC) John Lowe was the World Darts Champion and his sponsors at the time were British Car Auctions and Federation Breweries.
His brewery sponsor was eager to introduce it's various brands into a social club I frequented and played darts for in local and county leagues at the time.
The carrot that was dangled to the committee was "get the best 24 players in the area to your club and we will have John Lowe play them all.....One leg, 501, straight start, double finish....Oh!....and we'll put on a free bar.
I was the first one drawn out of the hat to play so went straight over to the practice board with my friend who was also my shift sergeant at the time (he is dead now, rest his soul).
The practice darts were good....121, 140, 85, 100 etc. etc.

Came to the game and scoring was equal, but John missed x8 with two darts and I was on 69 remaining. I took it out with 2 darts, single 19 and a bull finish.
I was so elated and vaguely remember John coming over and congratulating me and whilst he shook my hand he said in a low voice with a smile "best of three"?
I responded "no thanks John, I'll quit whilst I'm ahead" knowing full well that only one leg per challenger had been allotted for.
The next guy he played was a good mate of mine whom I readily conceded was a better player than me. John required 140, he hit bull (50 points for those who aren't familiar with the game), double top (40) and bull again.
In fact, he never lost a second game all evening.
After the event, a few of us went into the committee room for a drink with him....he turned to my shift sergeant who was still partially uniformed due to the fact he had come direct from his shift and said, jokingly..."I only let him win because I knew you and he were Policemen"....To which my colleague responded, "a lot of people out there think we are w***ers who can only perform in private. Tonight you have seen one uf us perform in public".

For the remainder of the darts season I was the scalp everyone was after (thanks to the publicity in the local press....a copy of which I still have to this day LOL) and hardly won a game or performed to even a semi decent average.

The morale I am trying to explain is.........everyone plays the game to their best ability or to a level they are most comfortable with.
Let us not knock anyone because they have differing abilities or capabilities....in fact, come over to the GWX MP sessions and you'll see all manner of differing levels of gameplay difficulty enjoyed....but also a game played amongst people of mutual understanding and respect for each other.

REMEMBER....NONE OF US IS AS CLEVER AS ALL OF US

What a pretty futile and dreary topic....if I may be so bold. http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/read2.gif

[Canovaro]

At least it resulted in a nice darts story Jimbuna ;)

[Wulfmann]

While I do manual targeting I really do not do it realistically or how a sub commander would.
Being a right wing Christian American shooter at the gun club as often as possible I simply see the target guess the speed from experience make sure the angle is right and set the fish angle as I think will work.
It is not much different than shooting various firearms but::::::::

What I would like to see rather than the current choice which is player must do every single thing and then set them is this. If I could ask for range, speed, direction etc then set the torpedo angle from the WO report I would be doing what I do now but with crew input.
The way it is now either one excepts the calculations and fires or does every aspect manually of all crew members involved is a wide path, IMO.

Notice on the surface you can ask for nearest ship and get position and range relative to the U-boat but not so submerged.
I would like that same information available submerged but feel the Kaleun should dictate torpedo heading as well as when to fire.

After doing the same hip shooting for a couple years with no other calculations I rarely miss and feel the time concentrating on the target is better than rechecking data.

But, to each his own.

I most certainly agree with those that state there is no "correct" way to enjoy this other than the one that suits each person best.
I believe most of us mean our method as a how we do it share approach and not as a my way's better than your way as the right way is what ever you like it to be.

Wulfmann

[Nicolas]

I agree that its a game and you cant feel superior or something, its silly. i made that SH3Contacts tool to do less search!, but im giving a try to manual targeting because a lot of times (sometimes in shallow water :huh: ), with weapon officer assistance i shot escorts (6 of them) with my 6 tubes and then the convoy its alone, with an ix sub and gun... you can imagine like 80,000 tons. or more in the whole night pursuing the convoy, very fun I dont think im better person or something its for fun. Now i cant do that with manual targeting but i want in near future to first sunk the escorts with manual targeting when i learn enough :88) then i will feel that i 'broke the game' :rock:

[Canovaro]

Notice on the surface you can ask for nearest ship and get position and range relative to the U-boat but not so submerged.
I would like that same information available submerged but feel the Kaleun should dictate torpedo heading as well as when to fire.


Me too.

[Von Schmidt]

It was the first officers job in real life and I keep it that way, plus i only play on the weekend so Im pretty busy drinking a few Heinekens. Aim my torpedos is the only thing that I dont do. I still dont get 150k patrols. Im an IX skipper im usually halfway across the world, or off Freetown. Anyways it really doesnt matter as long as you get the kill and back to port, its still really easy to die.

[Schwuppes]

Why doesn't everybody just use OLC's GUI?

Its easier and historically correct at the same time! :up:

[joegrundman]

It was the first officers job in real life and I keep it that way,

only on the surface. submerged it was the kaleun's job IIRC

[Von Schmidt]

YOur absolutly right, And I should have known that, i got my facts mixed up. I belived in a half truth, and I know the Kaluen does that for submerged attacks, I hate when i get my information confused. But I still dont do manual targeting.


Thanks for correcting me.

[Puster Bill]

YOur absolutly right, And I should have known that, i got my facts mixed up. I belived in a half truth, and I know the Kaluen does that for submerged attacks, I hate when i get my information confused. But I still dont do manual targeting.


Thanks for correcting me.

Manual targeting isn't *THAT* bad.

Perhaps it isn't everyone's cup of tea. Certainly, when I first started playing SHIII, I wasn't ready for it, not by a long shot.

Something happened along the way, though. First, it was just figuring out how to intercept a contact. That *HAS* to be done manually.

Then I started looking into the various 'wheels' that people had used. I even made one someone had produced for SHI use. Then I made a couple of slide rules (both circular and linear) and bought, and learned how to use them. I made a SACF/ISWAS, and finally Hitman's awesome Kriegsmarine wheel.

It's pretty easy once you've practiced it enough. Again, it's not for everyone, but it can be reduced to a set procedure that allows you to just follow the steps.

Once you've done that long enough, you can often 'guess' AOB and speed close enough to hit the majority of the time within 500 - 1000 meters.

It's a perishable skill, though. I haven't played for months, and am just starting up again, and getting my tail whooped in GWX 1.02 (6 shots for only 2 hits, one sunk).

[Wulfmann]

Nicolas, I started using manual targeting within a month of playing SH3 back in 05. I have no trouble killing escorts manually as my hip shooting approach allows for instinctive angle and lead. I do miss when I get the speed vs range wrong or sometimes the escort will change course or even stop or I just plain screw up.
But, because I am good at popping them in 43 I edited the RND.mis file to have the more accurate escort numbers meaning with 15-25 escorts there is no point as even if I sink a bunch I have no done my job in stemming the flow of supplies.

BTW, I have been to the lovely city of Colonia, back when I did a travel story on Uruguay and one on the Graf Spee as well. Great little country and a charming small city, Colonia.

Wulfmann

[difool2]

As a footnote... and speaking in terms of 'realistic play':

Ya shouldn't be wasting torpedoes on escorts.

The tonnage is in the convoy... not with taking out the escorts.

U-boats sank very few escorts in RL. It was generally frowned on.

Going for the escorts first would have been an interesting what-if for Doenitz and the Kriegsmarine tho. Early in the war at least the British were severely short on escorts. Kill enough of them and the convoy system is in deep trouble-THEN you can go hard after the (mostly) unescorted convoys.

[Brag]

understanding and respect for each other.

REMEMBER....NONE OF US IS AS CLEVER AS ALL OF US

http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/read2.gif

How well said :up:

[Wulfmann]

As a footnote... and speaking in terms of 'realistic play':
Ya shouldn't be wasting torpedoes on escorts.The tonnage is in the convoy... not with taking out the escorts.U-boats sank very few escorts in RL. It was generally frowned on.
I think that a player can use WO assistance to plot torpedo solutions and still avoid super-huge-fake-uber tonnage hauls... if they 'choose to play realistically' otherwise.
Personally, what irritates me to no end, is people who knowingly use use game exploits/blatant cheats to gain an advantage... and post said game exploitations all over the place to spoil it for everyone.
Once you learn of a game exploitation... you cannot unlearn it.

Good points. Some of which must take a personal commitment to play as if it was real. I changed sinking neutral ships to be positive but only attack neutrals in a convoy or singles unquestionably in the war zone and heading for a Brit port. I am anal about making sure on this so sink few neutrals.
As for knowing how to cheat we try and avoid them but when the tin cans start falling our instinct will make us do what it takes so making it impossible to cheat is the only way and agree one can not unlearn.
True, sinking escorts was not the objective however, Kretchner was admired for bagging three destroyers equal to 3 battleships by fellow submariners. I only attack escorts if detected trying to get in and they force me to waste fish to protect myself. Once in I fire at merchants in the convoy I dive away. Later in the war I do not even do that as there are simply too many and sinking any changes nothing so if detected too early I dive then which translates in both cases to history.

If possible I will edit to force realism on myself.

There is no right way or level to play any game except the one you enjoy the most for you. I appreciate those that share their experience and methods for consideration but the do it like me or your a loser approach ain't so cool.

Wulfmann

[GoldenRivet]

i would use the Weapons Officer more frequently if he didnt instantly spout off a perfect solution... when it comes down to people who use the weapons officer and people who do it themselves the guy who uses the weapons officer is at the advantage.... he can send 4 ships to the bottom in the time it takes a manual shooter to fire one shot.


but thats neither here nor there... play it how you want to play it.

I dont think i have ever agreed more with a statement on these forums than when Lehmann said this...

"there is far more to SH3 than firing torpedoes... such as making good decisions that keep your crew alive."

that is the very phrase i live by in SH3... even if it means passing on a juicy target in order to survive the mission intact... so be it.

"he who fights and runs away lives to fight another day."

[Nicolas]

Nicolas, I started using manual targeting within a month of playing SH3 back in 05. I have no trouble killing escorts manually as my hip shooting approach allows for instinctive angle and lead. I do miss when I get the speed vs range wrong or sometimes the escort will change course or even stop or I just plain screw up.
But, because I am good at popping them in 43 I edited the RND.mis file to have the more accurate escort numbers meaning with 15-25 escorts there is no point as even if I sink a bunch I have no done my job in stemming the flow of supplies.

BTW, I have been to the lovely city of Colonia, back when I did a travel story on Uruguay and one on the Graf Spee as well. Great little country and a charming small city, Colonia.

Wulfmann

Hello :up:
20 escorts? im not going to attack that convoy!!! :rotfl:
now im playing totally manual, i want to survive and learn.
Im downloading now the olc video tutorial i dont find where to get the range.

Yeahh... i like my city, glad you feel good here.
This country would be very nice place to live except the lack of commerce is keeping people leaving :nope: (i have a cousin in Miami, he is very wealthy now, and my sister in Spain).

I have a sunfish (small sail boat) and is one of my passions sail in it, one day a big storm catch me in the river ugh!! (Plate River, widest one) first i started a little pray, the wind was so strong that i could not for a moment put the the boat to start sailing at the shore direction then was a matter of keeping the boat with the mast heading up not below the water :doh: not for people with heart problems :dead: when we reach the beach, my sister was almost with hypothermia (the fear i think) and i was so so acelerated. I asked her for a cigarrete :|\\ . Was the most dangerous thing i went through in my life but the experience liked me :huh: ...

[Jimbuna]

understanding and respect for each other.

REMEMBER....NONE OF US IS AS CLEVER AS ALL OF US

http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/read2.gif

How well said :up:

If only mate.....if only http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/whistle.gif

[TomcatMVD]

BTW, I have been to the lovely city of Colonia, back when I did a travel story on Uruguay and one on the Graf Spee as well. Great little country and a charming small city, Colonia.

Wulfmann

Cool! I'm uruguayan, glad you liked it!:up: (cool story, the Graf Spee)

[Siegeswimpel]

1 minute observation chart

distance / speed

100 meters = 3kts
150 meters = 5 kts
200 meters = 6 kts
250 meters = 8 kts
300 meters = 10 kts
350 meters = 11 kts
400 meters = 13 kts
450 meters = 15 kts
500 meters = 16 kts
550 meters = 18 kts
600 meters = 20 kts
(etc. up to 30 knots)



GoldenRivet- thankyou, thankyou! :D :up:

[java`s revenge]

Heh simmers, why don`t you use that great olc.gui mod!!!

Since it came out i do use it. Never going back. It`s really enjoyable.
Every shot is a hit.


:roll:

[Wulfmann]

Hello :up: 20 escorts? im not going to attack that convoy!!! :rotfl:
now im playing totally manual, i want to survive and learn.

The first time I saw that many in GWX1.3 (my edit to RND to have 20-25) I took a dump.
There were a line behind the one lead escort all weaving back and forth at the head of the convoy.
On the flanks they were layered three deep. As I approached from the starboard side of the convoy the escorts started getting in line to make their runs at me. I felt like the women in the movie Airplane when everyone was taking turns slapping her.

I never got near the convoy and it was early 44 so guess what, that was correct.

As I said I can pop the escorts because unlike real Kaleuns when I die I get to start a new career and learn. But, even if you sink ten of them the remaining ones will still blast you and as was pointed out our job is to stem the supplies not win battles.

Having been on vacation from GWX and relaxing in the Pacific (SH4) where no effort is required to avert AS weapons I started GWX2.0 from the beginning of the war so am up to fall 1940 trying to get ready for the end of happy days and the beginning of hell in the water.

While I had to double or triple the number of escorts in past GW this one they upped the numbers so I only added another 30-50%.

Wulfmann