Depth Charge Detonation depth

[BJ]

Hi-
Tried searching the forums, but couldn't find a relevant hit.
Anyway, I've done a lot of reading on the subject, and it seems that during the early part of the war, Allied depth charges were limited to 300 ft detonation depth. Starting in mid 1943, the detonation depth was increased to 600 ft. And very late in the war, the 1 ton dpth charge(which SH3 doesn't model), could detonate down to 900 fet.
So if there was enough water under the keel, subs could avoid damage by going deep - granted, though, they wouldn't be able to carry out their mission.

It seems that both stock SH3 and GWX2 have the depth charges detonation depth as unlimited. How (or) can this be adjusted to reflect historical data?
I have looked at using the Minitweaker program, but I can't tell what values to adjust.
The only thing I can think of doing is to use the Minitweaker to adjust effective sonar range down to -200 meters (600 ft.), rather than the stock -300.
It is not quite the same, but the gameplay effect is almost the same, with the exception that without a lock, any escorts tend to leave after a while.
Well, any suggections would be appreciated.
Thanks

[Ducimus]

Short answer... you can't.

This has been a major pisser to me in both SH3, and SH4. AI routines set the depth of the charge based on sensory input. Variables within the DC sim file effect how accurately it detonates at the depth specified by the AI for it to explode, and thats pretty much it. The only limit on DC,'s is 300 meter. at that depth, they *poof* into thin air or detonate.

[Sailor Steve]

A different answer: hindsight is always 20/20. Yes, early war depth charges were limited, but exactly how aware of this were the Germans? I haven't seen a definitive answer one way or the other, and that means that if we could limit them, we would then be operating with information they may not have had.

Catch-22, no?

[Albrecht Von Hesse]

A different answer: hindsight is always 20/20. Yes, early war depth charges were limited, but exactly how aware of this were the Germans? I haven't seen a definitive answer one way or the other, and that means that if we could limit them, we would then be operating with information they may not have had.

Catch-22, no?

I would think the Germans' would have been very aware of the limited depth of the Allied depth charge settings. The American submariners certainly were aware of the Japanese limits. In the early part of the war the American submariners had realized that the Japanese were unaware of how deep American boats could dive and so unless caught in shallow water they simply dived deep enough to avoid the depth charges.

Moreover, during the first part of the war, the Japanese tended to set their depth charges too shallow, unaware U.S. submarines could dive below 150 feet (45m). Unfortunately, this deficiency was revealed in a June 1943 press conference held by U.S. Congressman Andrew J. May, and soon enemy depth charges were set to explode as deep as 250 feet (76m). Vice Admiral Charles A. Lockwood, COMSUBPAC, later estimated May's revelation cost the navy as many as ten submarines and 800 crewmen. (from Wikipedia)

Considering the Allied subs had diving depths less than 100 meters, while the Germans' were over 200, I'd think 1) the Allies wouldn't consider setting charges deeper anymore than the Japanese had, and 2) that the German submariners would have just as quickly realized that was so. Granted I'm just conjecturing here, but it sounds good to me. :)

[EoE]

I seriously doubt that the Japanese thought US submarines could not dive below 45 metres.

rgds/EoE

[Albrecht Von Hesse]

I seriously doubt that the Japanese thought US submarines could not dive below 45 metres.

rgds/EoE

Then you're seriously wrong, as that's a historical, documented fact.

[Kristian2]

What about the effectivity of the depth charge related to the depth of explosion. One obviously needs larger charges on greater depths, but how is the range of damage caused determined?

[PavelKirilovich]

I can't answer that question in depth but the factors to consider, aside from depth, water pressure, burn rate of explosive compound and the blastwave expansion rate, would include the durability of the submarine's hull construction, its integrity, and the angle at which it impacts the blast effect.

[Sailor Steve]

Moreover, during the first part of the war, the Japanese tended to set their depth charges too shallow, unaware U.S. submarines could dive below 150 feet (45m). Unfortunately, this deficiency was revealed in a June 1943 press conference held by U.S. Congressman Andrew J. May, and soon enemy depth charges were set to explode as deep as 250 feet (76m). Vice Admiral Charles A. Lockwood, COMSUBPAC, later estimated May's revelation cost the navy as many as ten submarines and 800 crewmen. (from Wikipedia)
There's nothing in there that states that U.S. submariners knew that the Japanese depth charges could only be set that deep. They probably knew they could go deeper than the charges, but exact information isn't always available. I'm pretty sure the Germans had some idea too, but exact knowledge? I don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EoE
I seriously doubt that the Japanese thought US submarines could not dive below 45 metres.

rgds/EoE


Then you're seriously wrong, as that's a historical, documented fact.
Yep; even the deep ones could only be set for 30 or 60 meters.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMJAP_ASW.htm

[Wave Skipper]

Long ago I saw a fight about DCs and their blast damage range. One guy, forgot who, actually contacted a US Navy Weapons engineer who explained the real DC damage disatnces that the Navy research had discovered after the war. But no one else here at the time cared, and they kept repeating their usual "I think.." "it seems unlikely.." and yadda yadda. I mean a bunch of them must have been like 12 or something. Facts did not matter to them. But hey, its a game!

And I have seen arguments going all different dirrections. In the early days everyone on here seemed to want rusty subs. Rusty subs ruled - the rustier the better. Then came out popular mods of well painted subs and suddenly well painted subs were all the rage. There was the big stink about shooting deck guns when the water was an inch over the crew's feet even though some people posted war pictures and real crew testimony that such had happened. But the haters of FACTS would not listen. Of course most people changed their weather settings anyway. What I didn't see much was modders saying "I based this on historical facts and here they are." Mainly just bold assertions and personal whims and think so's.

As for DCs some have modded stronger DCs and some have called for weaker ones. but there is always another factor to consider - realistic is not always GAME-GOOD.
Because it is just a game. And most of the other values and factors are not realistic either. And when you alter something in one place you often end up throwing another game parameter off - creating unexpected blow back. So in making DCs weaker or in the case you speak about concerning depth limits you will make the already terrible DD AI less likely to sink U-boats. I think weakening DCs might be ok IF and only if we could have real human controlled DDs in a multiplayer game (sadly not possible).

This was the problem with water on decks while shooting the deck gun. If a U-boat was moving only 2 knots or was at a stand still, shooting the deck gun was likely possible under some weather conditons. But if the U-boat was going 15 knots I think the deck gun crew would be swept off. Sadly the game did not allow for such fine tuning. So changing the weather settings to allow such activities was likely a bad idea.

The upshot is simply that often it is a bad idea to try to change SH3 settings to relect realism - unless you could change all the settings of everything and also create a whole new AI and game.

Another example: realistic aiming. I tried that in the early days, but the truth is in a real sub the captain did not have to handle all those duties alone! Trying to fight in rapid combat situations and using all the realistic game settings is more like a circus act than a battle depiction. IF SH3 had an automatic mode for controlling the U-boat's navigation while I was busy with torpedo calcs I might do it. Heck on a real U-boat your second in command WOULD AT THE VERY LEAST KEEP THE CROSS HAIRS ON THE TARGET FOR YOU while you were busy doing something else (at least SH2 did this) but SH3 loses targeting all the time if a U-boat makes big turns.

Or take the outer camera. If the silly sonar man DID his job during near combat with DDs I might get rid of the outer camera. But using the sonar man is about like trying to get President Bush to speak under oath. Not only that I have caught that SOB (sonar man) calling out 'ship moving away', when in fact it was moving right toward me! Unless I can get a sonar man not right out of cadet school and who lost his hearing at age 4, I will continue to use the outer camera. The sonar man is totally incapable - thus sailing blind is NOT REALISTIC.

[Albrecht Von Hesse]

There's nothing in there that states that U.S. submariners knew that the Japanese depth charges could only be set that deep. They probably knew they could go deeper than the charges, but exact information isn't always available. I'm pretty sure the Germans had some idea too, but exact knowledge? I don't know.

Sailor Steve, I'm sure the U.S. submariners weren't aware that the Japanese depth charges could only be set that deep. But they were aware that, for whatever reason, they didn't explode any deeper than they were. Simple observation and shared scuttlebutt would have been enough to confirm that.

"Hey Joe, you know, it seems whenever we get depth charged, if we can get below 90 feet they just don't seem to go any deeper than that."

"Huh. Yanno, now that you mention it, the last three times we got ash canned they didn't go any deeper either."

Since there were similar circumstances (Japan/Allies unaware of the op Force subs actual diving depths as well as their own SOP and depth charge performances) I think it was very likely that the German submariners intuited things as did the American submariners.

[Albrecht Von Hesse]

but there is always another factor to consider - realistic is not always GAME-GOOD.

I have to agree with Wave Skipper. It's virtually impossible, within the mechanics of the game system/program/engine, to replicate matters on a full, 100% historical/realistic basis. There are literally thousands of variables to consider, and trying to program for all those variables, well . . . it'd be nice, of course :p

From what I've seen, most of the serious modders try their best to keep things as 'real' as possible within the mechanics of what they have to work with. The old expression "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" comes to mind. But the modders here usually do an extremely good job of coming doggone close.

Sometimes, though, you're just going to have to compromise, somewhere. The result might not be totally accurate and realistic, but as optimal as you can.

[EoE]

I seriously doubt that the Japanese thought US submarines could not dive below 45 metres.

rgds/EoE
Then you're seriously wrong, as that's a historical, documented fact.

Really? You might be right, but I would really like to see the documentation then.

What I've seen so far is a website that says the maximum depth of the standard Japanese DC in the first half of the war was 60 metres.

I'm not disputing that fact, but weapon capability is not proof of Japanese believes about US submarine capabilities.

rgds/EoE

[Peto]

The Japanese set their depth charges according to what their average submarines were capable of--typically 250 foot dive depth. They assumed that US subs had the same capabilities. To admit that US Submarines were better than they believed would have been culturally incorrect at that time. I think most of this info can be found in Silent Victory by Clay Blair.

Germans: The U-boat crews had no idea they could go so deep when the war started. The test depth for basically all their subs was 90 meters. However, a prewar accident caused them to change that so they would not go below 50 meters--and they didn't until they actually got into combat. Proof for this is in almost all good books of the Battle of the Atlantic. Early encounters with enemy escorts and the U-Boats were trying to evade at depths of 90 meters or less illustrates that they did not know they could go deeper safely.

On the website www.de220.com (http://www.de220.com) you can see a latewar teardrop depth charge. It has a setting for 900 feet. I've never found any difinitive info as to when the Allies changed depth settings but I do know they went from 300 to 450 to 600 and then 750. I'd never read about deeper seetings than that but there they are on a real depth charge...

Anyway, SH3 or SH4, I have fun evading them. That is unhistorical ;). I've never talked to a WWII submariner that enjoyed being depth charged.

Cheers!!!