Convoy Problems

[PapaG39]

Man, I don't know how you guys do this convoy thing...lol..

When I do finely find a convoy, usually by accident, I just can't sneek in for a shot.

I get discovered 99% of the time & spend all of my time trying to get away while one or more DD's just goes around & around me in tight little circles until the convoy sails merrily away.

Doesn't matter if it's night or day, nasty weather, submerged or on the surface...They get me way before I am close enough for a shot.

Ha...and as far as taking out the DD...forget it...I miss them 99.9% of the time.

Once they start "S" turning toward me my chanches of a hit are just about nil.

I think I'll go back in the army where I belong...lol..

I have read all the different scenarios on how to get into a convoy, and I have tried them all, but I still get discovered.
I think the computer hates me...

[Blacklight]

I usually keep track of their courses (Make sure to make a mark on your map wherever you spot them. This will eventually give you an idea of their general course.. more about that later) and try to get directly in front of them. At that point, I go relatively deep, point my relatively toward the convoy, and go silent running at 1 knot. Then I watch on Hydrophone until the first bit of them pass over me. At that point, I creep to periscope depth. Usually by this time, half the convoy has passed over my head and I'm pretty much in the middle. The sound of all the engines will keep you masked pretty well so don't be afraid to burst your engine speed up a little too.
I then pick the closest targets to me and fire. This causes chaos in the convoy and ships will start going everywhere. You will probably have a couple more free minutes to fire at ships before the DD's come plowing through looking for you. What I do is try to just hit as many ships as I can with single torpedoes. Hopefully with a nice gaping hole in their sides, it will cause them to either sink outright or at least slow them down so they will drop out of the convoy where you can pick them off at your liesure.
Try to stay in the convoy until you shoot off all your eels (and get them shot at those ships as fast as you can target them) or the DD's find you. At that point, go deep and silent again and slowly start creeping away. Watch on your hydrophone where the ships are. A good technique is to point your Uboat at the ships directly and when they pass over you, gun your engine for a little bit and then go slow and silent again. Do this also after depth charges explode. Always try to keep the nose or tail of your boat facing either directly toward or away from the ships or as best as you can do if you have more than one DD on you. If you stay quiet, eventually you can get away (and sometimes.. you can't depending on how good their hearing and ASDIC is).
Also.. while you're doing this... mark on your map every few minutes where you hear the convoy itself.
After the DD's have receded, kind of follow the trail of the convoy in the direction of the marks that you made (You can also check out the Convoy map.. see if you can figure out what convoy rout it is and you will also have an idea of where they're going) and look for any of the damaged ships that didn't sink, but got left behind, and sink them.

That's how I usually try to do it. But like a lot of convoy tactics.. nothing is full proof and I've been sent to the bottom in a million pieces more times than I can count going in there. Don't give up. You'll have your moment of glory eventually and return a hero !

[Brag]

Do you submerge well before convoy's arrival at ambush point?
Do you go to silent running?
Do you keep your speed down to 2 or less knots?

If you fail doing any one of the 3 basics above, you will be detected every time

[joegrundman]

As above, but additionally, as you play GWX, you also need to pay attention to the following points

From the long range tracking and overhauling, you want a very good idea of speed, course and zig-zag plan. You may frequently be able to place yourself in anticipation of the next zigzag.

The escorts sonar systems should not be hitting you side on, therefore, lying in wait in front of the convoy sideways on is asking for trouble.

Also escort patterns vary throughout the war i think. In the early war, all escorts seem to move straight ahead, but later, the front escorts run a search pattern. Observe if this is the case and adjust your speed to make sure that as you pass the nearest escort his stern or flank is showing to you.

So in the long term you need to have a good idea of where the convoy will be and when, and make sure you are in a position to meet it and fight wihle never having to go faster than 2 or 3 knots, then in the medium term you need to get around the escort screen bearing in mind the above comments.

My typical approach plan looks like this:

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/3581/convoyapproachno0.png


Then you need to confirm your speed and AOB solution with the minumum of fuss.

Luckily confirming AOB/ target course is a piece of cake when you are inside a convoy, especially if you have a KM whiz wheel or the U-jagd tools mod.

You simply upscope at a time when one of the columns of the convoy is pointing right at you. Their course is then the reciprocal of the periscope bearing added to your course!

[Mush Martin]

Working on the edge of range helps a lot also even in 2.0 if you master
the long shot your sub is a lot safer for you and more dangerous for
them.

M

[PapaG39]

I can usually get the speed & course, but the zig zag plan I never can get right.

I followed a convoy all day once & it never varied its course once, but as soon as I raced ahead at night & got into position at 3000m from me it changed its course 90 degrees going away from me... The tail end DD's swung way out & ran right over the top of me...Then I spent the next hour or so getting blasted...

Right now I have a convoy in sight, but it is just getting light so I'll have to stay clear all day & maybe I can figure something out by dark..

There are about 14 ships & 8 DD's Plus one Dido class right in the center and an "S" sub (what ever that is) in line behind the last merchant..5000m behind him is another Black Swan.

There are a couple of Dd's inside of the first row of ships...

I took a 7500m shot just for grinns, they are only going 3kts in heavy seas, and danged if I didn't hit a Liberty Cargo just in front of the ships wheel house...it's burning like crazy & even had secondary explosions, but after 30 minutes it is just sailing along with no problems.

Perhaps I should just pass on this one..

[Koondawg]

My typical approach plan looks like this:

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/3581/convoyapproachno0.png

ditto for me...if needed Ill take out the one escort nearest me then try to make it into the convoy...normally if I make it into the majority of ships I can play cat and mouse with great success...then dive down to 120m and sneak out...reload and meet back up with whats left..:yep:

[Steeltrap]

The following describes my method for a submerged, daylight attack. At night I remain on the surface and approach from a different angle, but the principles of keeping slow and presenting narrow angles applies equally to both scenarios.

I try to approach from maybe 20 degrees off the base track of the convoy.

Make sure you dive early - a DD within about 10km will spot you in daylight, seemingly irrespective of the weather (not too happy about that aspect of the sensors).

Angle towards the point you have selected from which to fire. If you do silent running at 1.5kts DDs won't hear you (this means selecting the speed directly on the alternate engine telegraph display).

Try to keep DDs inside about a 30 deg angle on your bow - you are presenting a smaller target for a return echo from their ASDIC. As they get closer, start turning toward their direction of travel. The idea is to present an angle of less than 30 degrees until they cross your bow. After that you will be astern of them and you can turn back to the course you need for your shot.

I did this recently with the lead escort on a LARGE convoy. It closed within about 1300m at its closest, yet didn't detect me and sailed past. This left me at the front of the convoy with the lead escort behind me and heading away. In such a situation you can line up targets in the nearest column, waiting for them to come to point blank range (I think I was only 650m from track when I fired at the nearest target - the last I fired at, having fired at others further away first - and you don't miss at that range!).

You can then turn so that you are travelling along a reciprocal course as you dive, meaning the rest of the convoy heads over you, giving you excellent cover, both in terms of sound AND sheer physical presence (it's hard for a DD to DC you if you are under a freighter!).

One other thing - raise your periscope to the minimum height required to give you a view, and expose it for as brief a time as possible. In gathering firing data that should mean 5 seconds or less. For firing it can mean only a few seconds if everything is set before you shoot - as it should be.

Works for me.....

[Penelope_Grey]

Make sure you dive early - a DD within about 10km will spot you in daylight, seemingly irrespective of the weather (not too happy about that aspect of the sensors).

This depends entirely on positioning of the submarine.

In daylight while waiting for night, the best place to run is ahead of the convoy far out and showing them your backside.

So...

.................................................. ..............................Xthis is you.







Xthis is the convoy

It is not guaranteed to work, it depends a hell of lot on the weather conditions. So the clearer the weather, the further out you must be.

I'm not ashamed to admit to all the guys here, it was my older brother that taught me how to do a surface attack in GWX. It is not easy, then again, neither is anyhting worth doing, believe me a surface attack at night is a hell of a lot more effective than a submerged attack during the day. 9 times out of 10 submerged attacking will get you caught. and 10/10 for late war. Learn to surface attack it is worth it. Main reason being if you can stay on the surface you can keep pace with the convoy, reload, and attack again, obviously wait for it to stop zigzagging.

The secret is decks awash, and only as fast as you have to. As my brother said quite recently, "doing a a U-96" doesn't work. It just takes time.

[Jimbuna]

Some great advice here......you should be learning a lot.
Try and master the submerged approach before risking the surfaced option.
I particularly like joegrundman post http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif
A step at a time Kaleun.....Aces were not made every day http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[PapaG39]

Lots of good information here. I am drawing it out on paper & then I'll go try it.

One main point you all brought out is going to "silent running" when approaching.
I will definately correct that error and add it to my approach procedures manual...lol. It just never entered my mind to do in while approaching the target.

I am just ahead of the convoy at 0730 so I'll just stay here & watch how things work throughout the day & plan for tonights attack.

One thing I have going for me is that Liberty Cargo I hit with a single torpedo. It is blazing away & sending up a lot of smoke. That makes it easier to keep track of the convoys position from a distance..

[Julius Caesar]

Is in SH3 visual contact needed of ship sinking to claim the kill?
If that is true, if you attack ships in convoy and dive deep you will not see ships sinking and will not be credited with a kill or...?
Thanks.

[Nerazzurri]

Is in SH3 visual contact needed of ship sinking to claim the kill?
If that is true, if you attack ships in convoy and dive deep you will not see ships sinking and will not be credited with a kill or...?
Thanks.

No, you still get the sinking if you're submerged. I'm not sure but I believe the target must go down within your rendering distance - 8km or 16km.

[TarJak]

Lots of good information here. I am drawing it out on paper & then I'll go try it.

One main point you all brought out is going to "silent running" when approaching.
I will definately correct that error and add it to my approach procedures manual...lol. It just never entered my mind to do in while approaching the target.

I am just ahead of the convoy at 0730 so I'll just stay here & watch how things work throughout the day & plan for tonights attack.

One thing I have going for me is that Liberty Cargo I hit with a single torpedo. It is blazing away & sending up a lot of smoke. That makes it easier to keep track of the convoys position from a distance..

One of the reasons you may be having problems with is the fact that you are being detected and therefore the convoy starts its defensive routine of zigzag maneuvering. If you go silent and stay stealthy you should not see the convoy zigzag until after you hit your first target. Surprise and stealth are your greatest assets as a UBoat commander.

[Paajtor]

Just start as early in the war as possible - Sept.'39 - and the Allies will give you plenty of opportunities to practice...without the huge riscs that the later war-years will bring.

[joegrundman]

Also, people talk about trying to hit the lead escort first.

I never ever target the escorts unless it's a big one. I feel by doing so i am just warning the convoy and other escorts of my presence. Ideally for me, the first the convoy knows of me is when two of their large merchants get simultaneously destroyed :arrgh!:

[PapaG39]

I was positioned just as Penlope Grays drawing shows, but on the opposite side.

As I was smashing along through the waves the Black Swan behind me desided to do its loop out to the side. I thought I would check out ya'alls great advice. I did just a bit differernt, but the results were about the same I guess...lol

I went 90 degrees across their course aimed directly at the DD on the other forward side of the convoy. I went at 4kts initially & then to 3kts & then to 2kts & silent running. As I went across their course the DD I was aiming at went forward putting me off to the side, but behind him.

All of a sudden that damn Black swan cut his wanderning short and started back toward his station.. Man, now I'm cought in between both DD's...
I then pointed my nose at the leftside DD at about a 45degree angle ..kinda going forward & toward the center but same direction as the convoy, but now my stern was pointed at the Black Swan.. I kept this up for about 30 minutes & then the Black swan started his jog to the side again & then I pointed myself back toward the convoy trying to get across center & to those big guys on the far side...They were only doing three knots in the heavy serf & when the hydrophone sounds were all around me I thought I would take a look & shoot something...Big talk!
I poked my head up & looked right at the damn fantail of my burning convoy marker...

I had come up right under the cannon on the tail of that damn Liberty Cargo which I had hit hours ago.

I moved the scope & was pointed right at a small cargo ..I pressed the red button & fired a torpedo, turned about 5 degrees left & was right on the Dido so I fired ..again....a small left turn & there was one of those Liberty cargos at 3500m loaded with fuel drums..I didn't have time to really take a carefull sighting but it was in the green so I fired.

This was only but a few seconds, but I expected to be blasted to bits by the liberty stern gun crew any second..
down scope & down I go. I didn't bother to look for a aft torpedo target, because I expected to be sunk at any moment...

Dang...What a rush! I didn't get to see it hit, but after a couple of minutes & took a outside look & the Small cargo was just going under through a wall of flame. The Dido was hit in the 1/3 aft section & was a bit low by the stern, but still haden't sunk by the time I had to close up & head for work. The Liberty tanker was hit in the stern just under a bunch of 50 gallon drums of gas. the flame was streached out on the water behind the ship that was longer then the ship itself. however, it was still chugging & burning as it sailed along.

I'm now at 140m heading for the outside of the convoy. They never even came for me & that surprises me. Maybe I was just far enough away that none of them even got a lock on me. that small merchant was really making a lot of noise as it went down. I wish I could have seen it, but I was really busy for a bit..

I felt like a one armed paper hanger...

Guess I will try the night attack later on...


Thanks for the good info... It seems to have worked...It was not with pin point accuracy by any streach of the imagination, more like a circus dog & pony show as the fat lady falls through the net...lots of kicking & barking...
but I survived....wonders never cease...lol

[looney]

Fun not convoy attacks. Congratz on this succesfull attack.

[PapaG39]

Bummer....
I sunk the Small Cargo at 1017 this morning & got credit for it.
The Liberty Cargo sank about 45 minutes later, but I didn't get credit for it. It shows gray on the map. I took a screen shot while it was burning and it is a British flag just like the other British flags on the other ships.
The Dido just sunk at around 1250, but I didn't get credit for it either. I am trailing the convoy with decks awash & charging batteries. I am about 10km behind and to the left side of the convoy.

Oh well, I know that I sunk them, but I still would like it to show up on the log...lol

[Jimbuna]

Is the weather rough......they could have finally succumbed as a result of that. :hmm:

Happened to me this morning.....the ship was ablaze and listing badly, but the weather took her, and the renown :damn:

[PapaG39]

yes, there are high seas, However, it was my torpedo that blew a hole in their sides & started the fires and caused them to take on water. The high seas would certainly help though.

[Jimbuna]

yes, there are high seas, However, it was my torpedo that blew a hole in their sides & started the fires and caused them to take on water. The high seas would certainly help though.

The game treats flooding as damage...if the last cumulative to tip the balance was due to flooding (weather based) then that is probably why you lost the renown. :hmm:

[Julius Caesar]

Is in SH3 visual contact needed of ship sinking to claim the kill?
If that is true, if you attack ships in convoy and dive deep you will not see ships sinking and will not be credited with a kill or...?
Thanks.

No, you still get the sinking if you're submerged. I'm not sure but I believe the target must go down within your rendering distance - 8km or 16km.

Thanks!
Can anyone confirm this?
I am thinking about the situation when I shoot torps at convoy from long distance (5+km) and sail away. If this what Nerazzurri wrote is true, long distance attack on convoy would'n work.

[Jimbuna]

Is in SH3 visual contact needed of ship sinking to claim the kill?
If that is true, if you attack ships in convoy and dive deep you will not see ships sinking and will not be credited with a kill or...?
Thanks.

No, you still get the sinking if you're submerged. I'm not sure but I believe the target must go down within your rendering distance - 8km or 16km.

Thanks!
Can anyone confirm this?
I am thinking about the situation when I shoot torps at convoy from long distance (5+km) and sail away. If this what Nerazzurri wrote is true, long distance attack on convoy would'n work.

Probably closer to 30kmm because you still should have a hydrophone contact....Play safe and maintain rendering distance http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[PapaG39]

The sun is just going down and I am behind an off to the left (port) side of the convoy. There is a Black swan on station weaving back & forth behind the convoy. A trawler that seems to be going straight with the convoy, and he is just off the left side even with the tail of the convoy. There are two Liberty "fuel/Cargo" on the tail end left side of the convoy.

The weather is clear, half moon with moderate waves.

I guess I'll have to make my approach from a quartering angle toward the tail end Liberty, but at this period of the war (October 1941) how close can I safely get from that Black Swan who is weaving back & forth?

I was planning to go in "decks awash" or could I just stay on top & move a little faster?

I couldn't get ahead of the convoy because a small merchant dropped behind & I had to go clear across the rear of the convoy & catch up with him submerged. I finely sunk him with a magnetic shot which caused a horrific explosion & he went down almost immediately...
By the time I got away from that Black Swan I had to go slow & recharge batteries for the rest of the day...

Now I am just catching up & the sun is going down... There is also an "S Sub" in the rear of the center column. I guess I'll have to read up on that. Never saw one before. Don't know if its a threat or not. It doesn't look like it has torpedo doors, but I have to go right by it....