Death of the GM Corvette?

[SUBMAN1]

GM: Emission law may hamper muscle cars

Detroit performance cars endangered by new, stricter regulations

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/ap/d4b3c53d-bbba-43f5-8fc8-e8a7c6499b4e.hmedium.jpg

Detroit performance cars endangered by new, stricter regulations
The 2009 Corvette ZR1 is the fastest, most powerful automobile ever produced by General Motors. But it may be the last in a long tradition of muscle cars, says the Corvette's chief engineer, Tadge Juechter.

DETROIT - When General Motors Corp. pulls the cover off a new supercharged version of the Corvette at the Detroit auto show next month, it will unveil a performance car designed to rival or better even the fastest, most expensive exotic cars from Europe.

But the Corvette's chief engineer says the 2009 Corvette ZR1 may be the last in a long tradition of Detroit performance cars, endangered by stronger federal fuel economy regulations and limits on carbon dioxide emissions.

"High-performance vehicles such as this may actually be legislated out of existence," Tadge Juechter said at a recent showing of the ZR1, which is designed to have around 620 horsepower.

President Bush on Wednesday signed into law legislation that will bring more fuel-efficient vehicles into auto showrooms and require wider use of ethanol, calling it "a major step" toward energy independence and easing global warming.

The legislation requires automakers to increase fuel efficiency by 40 percent to an industry average 35 miles per gallon by 2020.

But Juechter said to sell one of the Chevrolet supercars, GM would need to offset that with cars that get 45 mpg.

"It could really be an endangered species," he said.

Aaron Bragman, an auto analyst with the consulting firm Global Insight, said predicting the death of the muscle car might be premature.

The Corvette, he said, is fuel efficient when compared with its competitors. Although fuel economy figures weren't released for the ZR1, the current 505-horsepower Corvette ZO6 gets an estimated 15 mpg in the city and 24 on the highway, according to GM.

The ZR1, he said, gets around the same mileage as a Chevrolet pickup truck, and GM won't be getting out of the pickup business because of gas mileage standards.

"I think it's a little over-dramatization," Bragman said. "GM wants to sell big, high-performance, fun cars. And typically that's what Americans want to buy."

Performance cars of the future may be powered by smaller engines or electric motors, he said, but they won't die.

The ZR1 will have a top speed of more than 200 mph, driven by an all-new supercharged 6.2-liter V-8 engine. It has 19-inch front and 20-inch rear wheels and a suspension tuned to provide extraordinary cornering grip, GM said.

The car has a carbon-fiber hood, fenders and roof for weight savings, and its huge carbon-ceramic brake rotors give it great stopping power, the company said.

The ZR1 will cost around $100,000 and probably will go on sale next summer.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22340556/

[Reaves]

There will always be people who will pay for such a car so I doubt they will ever become extinct. They might have a hard time once we stop using petrol (fusion maybe? ;)) but the market will always be there so the money will be made.

[joea]

There will always be people who will pay for such a car so I doubt they will ever become extinct. They might have a hard time once we stop using petrol (fusion maybe? ;)) but the market will always be there so the money will be made.


Ahhh you mean beer as in Back to the Future :p

[Reaves]

Ahhh you mean beer as in Back to the Future :p

There is no reason to squander our greatest resource for transportation!

:rotfl:

[SUBMAN1]

Ahhh you mean beer as in Back to the Future :p
There is no reason to squander our greatest resource for transportation!

:rotfl:Unless of course they need o use some so that the can 'transport' that greatest resource to a local place for my purchase! Then, and only then, I can authorize such a use! :D

-S

[JSLTIGER]

When someone can give me a legitimate reason as to why they need 620 horsepower, then I'll be sad. Until then, I don't understand what people have against 4 cylinder engines. I drive a 4 banger powered Corolla right now, and its got more than enough power to get me around town. My parents drive an Accord with a 4 cylinder engine, and it too has more than enough power. Barring towing, no one really needs to have V6s or V8s.

[SUBMAN1]

Obviously you need to be introduced to an old concept. Here in the US, we call that comcept - 'fun'. I've have various fast cars, and there is an endorphine that is created by such a machine. You really don't get it any other place. Give me a deserted old twisty road in the mountains with a fast car, and no people around any day!

Without experiencing it yourself, there is no way to explain it to you. Try it sometime. Only then will you understand.

-S

[CCIP]

Yes, but I also think the "fun" should be responsible. If it's reliant on things which make the world a less sustainable place, well, perhaps it's just not a good thing.

Not that I think everything "fun" should be banned, but emissions regulations are there for a reason.

[Reaves]

When someone can give me a legitimate reason as to why they need 620 horsepower, then I'll be sad. Until then, I don't understand what people have against 4 cylinder engines. I drive a 4 banger powered Corolla right now, and its got more than enough power to get me around town. My parents drive an Accord with a 4 cylinder engine, and it too has more than enough power. Barring towing, no one really needs to have V6s or V8s.

While I understand what you're saying, I drive a Toyota Vienta V6 because I need a large sedan and I tow a trailer fairly regulary. I could not have a 4 cylinder unless they improve them.

Trademen need Utes (pickups) for similar reasons, you just can't use a small car for many reasons.

The problem is you have all these people driving big 4x4's to drive around the city. THAT is a problem.

[SUBMAN1]

Yes, but I also think the "fun" should be responsible. If it's reliant on things which make the world a less sustainable place, well, perhaps it's just not a good thing.

Not that I think everything "fun" should be banned, but emissions regulations are there for a reason.Little do people realize that a Corvette is fuel efficient and cheaper to operate than any SUV in the mid sized class or bigger. You probably live in Europe where cars are small, so imagine my world where SUV's and Mini-Vans make up 50% of the cars on the road. Add trucks in there, and you probably make up 2/3 rds. It would be an improvement if they all drive Corvettes and get 25+ MPG.

-S

[Chock]

I've had enough cars with big engines in the past, motorbikes too, but even I think that's just a stupid amount of power for something they are trying to sell to road users.

Personally, I'll be more impressed when the US motor industry can produce a car that is actually capable of going around a corner without wallowing all over the place like a soggy sponge:rotfl:

And yes I've driven Yank cars too, including a Dodge Viper, a '67 Mustang and the posh version of the old Trans Am with the engine-turned gold dashboard that looked like a tart's handbag, and they were all awful as far as handling goes (good fun mind, I admit that). But I imagine that ZR1 is probably no better in respect to handling.

:D Chock

[SUBMAN1]

I've had enough cars with big engines in the past, motorbikes too, but even I think that's just a stupid amount of power for something they are trying to sell to road users.

Personally, I'll be more impressed when the US motor industry can produce a car that is actually capable of going around a corner without wallowing all over the place like a soggy sponge:rotfl:

And yes I've driven Yank cars too, including a Dodge Viper, a '67 Mustang and the posh version of the old Trans Am with the engine-turned gold dashboard that looked like a tart's handbag, and they were all awful as far as handling goes. I imagine that ZR1 is probably no better in respect to handling.

:D ChockIncorrect. The Yank car will kick pretty much anything from Europe short of $300K. This includes corners, and everything else on a track. Start looking to pick yourself up a Zonda. You're gonna need one to compete with this bad boy!

And if you must guess, the current ZR1 is smoking pretty much anything short of $200 - $250K out of Europe. This includes the Ferraris, Maseratis, all of it, and for less than a fraction of the price.

Pick up some Motor Trends and see how bad Europe is failing against this American beast. Its pretty bad.

By the way, sorry you had to drive a Viper. When i think of that thing, I think an Italian hairy chested guy cruising for the bottom of the barrel women (Like that politically correct way to say that? i just made it up! :D) And yes, the current ZR1 is much much faster and nimble than the original Viper, and so Viper hit back with a 520 HP version, and the ZR1 still beats it.

-S

PS. Read about J Leno who took a stock slow Corvette into Germany on the Autobahn. Not much those guys can do about it when hit the accelerator and left those $160K BMW's back in the dust. And that was the crappy 380 HP version. Apparently those Beemers can't hit 170+. If he had the current 505 HP Corvette, he could approach 200 MPH (320 km/h), but I guess he doesn't need it.

PPS. The current ZR1 goes for a paultry $70K or so too.

[Zachstar]

There are lots of bits of technology that can come together to give these cars MASSIVE amounts of power and acceleration. My favorites being the Ultracapasitor that can last longer than Lithium-Ion and is able to deliver most of its potential at any given time. And of course the new alloys being developed that can handle such massive stress.

If you got the cash you will not be without for long :rock:

[Chock]

Not according to all these tests:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/show/powerlaps.shtml

Seems that Corvette's going to have to find another five-plus seconds over the one on the list to get up there.

:D Chock

[Zachstar]

Oh and give me a Geo Storm over any of these cars and I will be quite happy. :arrgh!:

When I get my life together I plan to purcase a broken down one and turn it into a digital high range fun machine (500 miles per charge) with awesome amouts of safety features! :yep:

[SUBMAN1]

Funny! Notice how the crappy $70K (about 35K British pounds) Z06 is smoking that Zonda? :D Too funny! Its even faster than the original Konisegg! All for $69,990!

The new one coming out (not out yet and not in these tests) will have 620 HP.

In the computer world, we call this the best bang for your buck!

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Did you look at those scores Chock? Oh my gosh! I am blown away it did that well! As i said - it beats anything in the $200K to $250K range.

-S

[Chock]

Not quite, the Ariel Atom is less than 20 grand. Mind you, it is insane, 0-60 in 2.9 seconds LOL, that's almost as fast as my GPZ was off the line.

:D Chock

[Reaves]

http://us.tnpv.net/2006/WKA200601/WKA2006013168168_pv.jpg

Holden Monaro / Pontiac GTO

Proudly Australian made. :smug:

[SUBMAN1]

Not quite, the Ariel Atom is less than 20 grand. Mind you, it is insane, 0-60 in 2.9 seconds LOL, that's almost as fast as my GPZ was off the line.

:D ChockOK - you got me on that one. :D Maybe we should reclassify this topic as 'useful' street legal cars only. That thing is a Go-Kart!

Need I remind you that its a US car too? Poke poke poke! Damn Americans ruin all the high price fun!

-S

[Chock]

Don't get me wrong, I actually like Yank cars, even with their inability to negotiate British roundabouts, but I still think the HP of that new ZR1 is over the top. But in any case, everyone on my road thinks I'm personally destroying the planet anyway 'cos I drive this thing:

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/AlanBradbury/P8060018.jpg

- 12mpg downhill with the wind behind it LOL:rotfl:

My excuse is that when the Earth is destroyed, I'll be okay, cos I have a vehicle that can go anywhere:

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/AlanBradbury/LUNARROVER.jpg

Mind you, with the way fuel prices are going, I wouldn't start buying it a headstone for the Corvette's grave just yet, GM can easily offset the MPG of that thing by selling more fuel-friendly compacts, and they'll be selling more and more of those as the average US motorist tries to squeeze more miles out of the tank.

:D Chock

[SUBMAN1]

http://us.tnpv.net/2006/WKA200601/WKA2006013168168_pv.jpg

Holden Monaro / Pontiac GTO

Proudly Australian made. :smug:Believe it or not, I kind of like this car. If I were not to buy my SAAB outright (I'm tired of car payments), I'd look at this as a cheap alternative. Its got power, looks innocent, and is fast! It will smoke my car I think, until I'm done with it.

This is what I am thinking - http://www.partsforsaabs.com/product_info.php?cPath=28_270_353_452&products_id=2088

That should even the power band a little. 388 nm equals about 287 ft/lbs. torque. Should make it scoot a lot better.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Don't get me wrong, I actually like Yank cars, even with their inability to negotiate British roundabouts, but I still think the HP of that new ZR1 is over the top. But in any case, everyone on my road thinks I'm personally destroying the planet anyway 'cos I drive this thing:

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/AlanBradbury/P8060018.jpg

- 12mpg downhill with the wind behind it LOL:rotfl:

My excuse is that when the Earth is destroyed, I'll be okay, cos I have a vehicle that can go anywhere:

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/AlanBradbury/LUNARROVER.jpg

Mind you, with the way fuel prices are going, I wouldn't start buying it a headstone for the Corvette's grave just yet, GM can easily offset the MPG of that thing by selling more fuel-friendly compacts, and they'll be selling more and more of those as the average US motorist tries to squeeze more miles out of the tank.

:D ChockI love it! I have a Land Rover too, but I just love those old tanks. I swear you can't break em. I've got what I call a hybrid, since I have things like the Brush guard, with Hela lights mounted on it, but it is still not that thing. Maybe we should trade! :D I'd love to check it out if you weren't across the pond. I use the LR to haul large items and hit the woods mainly. I want an original defender at some point though.

-S

[Chock]

Now SAABs I do like, even with that wierd ignition key and freaky stuff you have to do to start them. My wife's after one of them actually, but I'd like to know where she'd put all the crap she hauls around in her current car with a SAAB:rotfl:

My wife hates that Landie of mine, she won't even get in it, especially since everyone points at you and waves when you drive something painted up like that is. But I think it's the fact that it has three gear levers and a steering wheel that's about the same diameter as a planet that puts her off.

:D Chock

[Reaves]

This is what I am thinking - http://www.partsforsaabs.com/product_info.php?cPath=28_270_353_452&products_id=2088

That should even the power band a little. 388 nm equals about 287 ft/lbs. torque. Should make it scoot a lot better.

-S
http://www.partsforsaabs.com/images/custom/bsr_pictures/93SS_Aero_210_hp1.gifhttp://www.partsforsaabs.com/images/custom/bsr_pictures/93SS_Aero_210_nm1.gif

That's a bit of differance and certainly worth the price.


And who can't fall in love with the Chock mobile. I'd love to go driving around in that thing. Would be ideal for when I go camping too.

[SUBMAN1]

This is what I am thinking - http://www.partsforsaabs.com/product_info.php?cPath=28_270_353_452&products_id=2088

That should even the power band a little. 388 nm equals about 287 ft/lbs. torque. Should make it scoot a lot better.

-S
http://www.partsforsaabs.com/images/custom/bsr_pictures/93SS_Aero_210_hp1.gifhttp://www.partsforsaabs.com/images/custom/bsr_pictures/93SS_Aero_210_nm1.gif

That's a bit of differance and certainly worth the price.Thats what I thought! Pretty much a guaranteed. Just got rid of my LR loan though and I get cheap for a while after writing bigger checks, if you know what i mean, but I think this is a must for an upgrade. I will buy it soon. I saw a test report a while back and the BSR's did output exactly what they said too - unlike some of their competitors.

On a different note - I kind of feel weird living in America without debt. Its like i'm not normal or something.

-S

[em2nought]

Having to get around 35 mpg with extinguish GMs entire line except for the Vibe, oh yeah it's a Toyota. lol I want one of these http://www.superlitecars.com/roadster_spec.html with a VW Polo diesel (75mpg) for powertrain.

[badhat17]

Need I remind you that its a US car too? Poke poke poke! Damn Americans ruin all the high price fun!

-S

The Atom is produced in the US under license but it remains a UK design.

[Hakahura]

Pah...
You want fun?
An endorphine rush?
Bang for buck's?

Then buy Japanese, oh and lose 2 wheels and all those extra's like seats, roofs, doors ect....

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/8253/vfrms5.jpg

[VipertheSniper]

Pah...
You want fun?
An endorphine rush?
Bang for buck's?

Then buy Japanese, oh and lose 2 wheels and all those extra's like seats, roofs, doors ect....

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/8253/vfrms5.jpg

Is that yours? How old is it? My guess is about 10 years?

[JSLTIGER]

When someone can give me a legitimate reason as to why they need 620 horsepower, then I'll be sad. Until then, I don't understand what people have against 4 cylinder engines. I drive a 4 banger powered Corolla right now, and its got more than enough power to get me around town. My parents drive an Accord with a 4 cylinder engine, and it too has more than enough power. Barring towing, no one really needs to have V6s or V8s.
While I understand what you're saying, I drive a Toyota Vienta V6 because I need a large sedan and I tow a trailer fairly regulary. I could not have a 4 cylinder unless they improve them.

Trademen need Utes (pickups) for similar reasons, you just can't use a small car for many reasons.

The problem is you have all these people driving big 4x4's to drive around the city. THAT is a problem.

Reaves, that would be why I excepted those who need them for towing in the last sentence of my original post.

As for Subman1's comment about fun, believe me, I understand. I'm looking at getting a new car to replace my Corolla, which, while it has served me well, is pushing 15. One of the things that I'm looking for is a tiptronic transmission so that I can have fun driving it. At the same time though, there is nowhere in the US where it is legal to be driving at 200 mph, so I don't see the point in producing a 620-hp car to do something that's illegal.

Additionally, while a Corvette might be "fuel-efficient" as compared to SUV's, I think that that needs to be kept in perspective. If you're talking about an SUV being driven by a single person with no cargo, then yes, I'd agree. However, if you're talking about a fully laden Suburban carrying nine passengers, cargo, and towing a boat, than although it burns more fuel, it's doing a lot more than the Corvette, which can tote two people at most with little, if any cargo.

[SUBMAN1]

Reaves, that would be why I excepted those who need them for towing in the last sentence of my original post.

As for Subman1's comment about fun, believe me, I understand. I'm looking at getting a new car to replace my Corolla, which, while it has served me well, is pushing 15. One of the things that I'm looking for is a tiptronic transmission so that I can have fun driving it. At the same time though, there is nowhere in the US where it is legal to be driving at 200 mph, so I don't see the point in producing a 620-hp car to do something that's illegal.

Additionally, while a Corvette might be "fuel-efficient" as compared to SUV's, I think that that needs to be kept in perspective. If you're talking about an SUV being driven by a single person with no cargo, then yes, I'd agree. However, if you're talking about a fully laden Suburban carrying nine passengers, cargo, and towing a boat, than although it burns more fuel, it's doing a lot more than the Corvette, which can tote two people at most with little, if any cargo.I personally could care less about doing 200 MPH, but many of these guys go to the track to have fun. On another note, it is not top speed that these guys are looking for, but acceleration through all ranges of speed.

Yes, if you plan to drive around public roads, you might be fine with 200 HP, but I guarantee that someone will come along just like you that will say - what do you need 200 hp for? This is exactly your argument for the guys looking for 500 to 600 HP.

To each his own.

-S

[NEON DEON]

I will just stick to driving my 17 year old Honda Accord with 200k+ miles:D .

Well, untill the wheels fall off.

Then I will take a look at who has the best City car between Honda and Toyota and be boring old me all over again.:ping:

[GT182]

That's why I have a 66 GTO..... it's exempt from emissions. :D And seeing the 389 has a bad set of rings, I'm putting in a 326 ci engine. No more highpriced Supreme Unleaded. I'll be able to burn plain ol Reg. Unleaded. Mind you the original matching numbers 389 will be rebuilt and kept to go with the car if I ever decide to sell it.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/GT182/GTOSIG.jpg

[Tchocky]

Think I'll splash out on some new tyres. For my bicycle.

[SUBMAN1]

I will just stick to driving my 17 year old Honda Accord with 200k+ miles:D .

Well, untill the wheels fall off.

Then I will take a look at who has the best City car between Honda and Toyota and be boring old me all over again.:ping:How about trying to buy American for once? :D

-S

[NEON DEON]

I will just stick to driving my 17 year old Honda Accord with 200k+ miles:D .

Well, untill the wheels fall off.

Then I will take a look at who has the best City car between Honda and Toyota and be boring old me all over again.:ping:How about trying to buy American for once? :D

-S

Does it count if I buy a Honda with a VIN starting with a 1? That would make it made in america.:hmm:

Also I could buy a Dodge that starts with a 3 and then I would be buying Mexican;)

[SUBMAN1]

Does it count if I buy a Honda with a VIN starting with a 1? That would make it made in america.:hmm:

Also I could buy a Dodge that starts with a 3 and then I would be buying Mexican;)Its not so much where its made, but where the money goes - to American corporations.

Dodge is German, not American! :p Owned by Dalmer-Benz / Dalmer Chrysler!

Buying Subaru, Mitsubishi, even Land Rover, or Volvo, Saab, any of them - all American owned, or at least majority owned by Americans.

[NEON DEON]

Does it count if I buy a Honda with a VIN starting with a 1? That would make it made in america.:hmm:

Also I could buy a Dodge that starts with a 3 and then I would be buying Mexican;)Its not so much where its made, but where the money goes - to American corporations.

Dodge is German, not American! :p Owned by Dalmer-Benz / Dalmer Chrysler!

Buying Subaru, Mitsubishi, even Land Rover, or Volvo, Saab, any of them - all American owned, or at least majority owned by Americans.

I speak of jobs for Americans. That is what I think buying American should be about employing americans.

Dodge is made by Chrysler which is no longer owned by Daimler. Cerberus Capital Management now owns Chrysler after buying it from Daimler.

So when my poor Honda decides to throw in the towel (could take a while) I will buy a car made in Amercia. :D

I can also buy Honda ADRs on the NYSE if I want to invest in the company.

[SUBMAN1]

I speak of jobs for Americans. That is what I think buying American should be about employing americans.

Dodge is made by Chrysler which is no longer owned by Daimler. Cerberus Capital Management now owns Chrysler after buying it from Daimler.

So when my poor Honda decides to throw in the towel (could take a while) I will buy a car made in Amercia. :D

I can also buy Honda ADRs on the NYSE if I want to invest in the company.Having the work is nice, but ultimately, except for the paychecks paid out, the majority lions share - Leaves the country. Get it? This is an American tactic that America has employed for a long while. The Japanese are just doing the same thing back to us. I think the British invented this techique as a way to get Spice from the Indies without having to use British gold.

Regardless, you are sending the majority of your money and the majority of the jobs to Japan buy buying your Honda. It is nice that some paychecks are written to Americans for assembling the cars whos parts are all made in other countries, but in the end, the majority of your money and jobs is leaving our economy. No other way to spin it.

-S

[NEON DEON]

I speak of jobs for Americans. That is what I think buying American should be about employing americans.

Dodge is made by Chrysler which is no longer owned by Daimler. Cerberus Capital Management now owns Chrysler after buying it from Daimler.

So when my poor Honda decides to throw in the towel (could take a while) I will buy a car made in Amercia. :D

I can also buy Honda ADRs on the NYSE if I want to invest in the company.Having the work is nice, but ultimately, except for the paychecks paid out, the majority lions share - Leaves the country. Get it? This is an American tactic that America has employed for a long while. The Japanese are just doing the same thing back to us. I think the British invented this techique as a way to get Spice from the Indies without having to use British gold.

Regardless, you are sending the majority of your money and the majority of the jobs to Japan buy buying your Honda. It is nice that some paychecks are written to Americans for assembling the cars whos parts are all made in other countries, but in the end, the majority of your money and jobs is leaving our economy. No other way to spin it.

-S

Umm not when it comes to the car business.

The majority of the jobs in using Honda as an example would be American owned by Americans in America.

In fact, more than 100,000 workers are employed thru authorized dealerships in the US and they use over 600 US suppliers in the manfacture of their cars.

So no I dont get it.

I can also as an American invest in the company by buying stock on the NYSE thus putting money in my pocket too as an American.

[SUBMAN1]

Umm not when it comes to the car business.

The majority of the jobs in using Honda as an example would be American owned by Americans in America.

In fact, more than 100,000 workers are employed thru authorized dealerships in the US and they use over 600 US suppliers in the manfacture of their cars.

So no I dont get it.

I can also as an American invest in the company by buying stock on the NYSE thus putting money in my pocket too as an American.You can spin it anyway you want to make you feel warm and fuzzy about it, put your $$$ and jobs with those dollars are leaving America. Nuff said.

-S

PS. I don't count dealerships in those numbers.

PPS. Here is what Honda is up to by the way:

Already, 10% of Honda's workforce is in Ohio producing Honda Pilots for the world marketplace.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/suncommentary/la-op-global20mar20,0,5270885.story?coll=la-headlines-suncomment

[NEON DEON]

Umm not when it comes to the car business.

The majority of the jobs in using Honda as an example would be American owned by Americans in America.

In fact, more than 100,000 workers are employed thru authorized dealerships in the US and they use over 600 US suppliers in the manfacture of their cars.

So no I dont get it.

I can also as an American invest in the company by buying stock on the NYSE thus putting money in my pocket too as an American.You can spin it anyway you want to make you feel warm and fuzzy about it, put your $$$ and jobs with those dollars are leaving America. Nuff said.

-S

No spin.

Just facts.

Some people here sometimes have a hard time with facts.

[Tchocky]

Erm. It is true that some money paid to foreign corporations *eventually* leaves the country, there's a large multiplier at work through domestic wages. Domestic wages positively affect the local community, multiplying out like any wage. Repatriation of profits definitely exists, but the net effect is far too fuzzy to slap a black-and-white onto, much less distort to make oneself feel a bit better.

[GT182]

Dodge is German, not American! :p Owned by Dalmer-Benz / Dalmer Chrysler!


Nope, Dodge and Chrysler are no longer owned by Dalmer-Benz. DB sold it. A US outfit now owns them and it's one of the reasons the plant in Newark, DE is closing. The most advanced plant in the US that can build and vehicle Chrysler/Dodge makes is shutting their doors in 2009. Actually DB started the closing and the fools that now own it are continuing on with the closing. They also have a great track record of shutting down buisnesses they buy. So in a few years you might only see GM and Ford..... the Big Two..... no more Big Three.

[Kraut]

Oh great, another Honda is bringing jobs to the US vs. the money is going to a Japanese corporation argument.

[NEON DEON]

Dodge is German, not American! :p Owned by Dalmer-Benz / Dalmer Chrysler!


Nope, Dodge and Chrysler are no longer owned by Dalmer-Benz. DB sold it. A US outfit now owns them and it's one of the reasons the plant in Newark, DE is closing. The most advanced plant in the US that can build and vehicle Chrysler/Dodge makes is shutting their doors in 2009. Actually DB started the closing and the fools that now own it are continuing on with the closing. They also have a great track record of shutting down buisnesses they buy. So in a few years you might only see GM and Ford..... the Big Two..... no more Big Three.

Hay I didnt say the above quote that was subman.:nope:

I said this:

"Dodge is made by Chrysler which is no longer owned by Daimler. Cerberus Capital Management now owns Chrysler after buying it from Daimler."

:yep:

Yes it could be the end for Chrysler. Before Daimler bought them they had made themselves very attractive to be bought because of the huge amount of money they had for R & D. I wonder what kinda shape they would be in had they remained independent.

[SUBMAN1]

No spin.

Just facts.

Some people here sometimes have a hard time with facts.Exactly - my thoughts too. As someone said above, it is not black and white, but still, who owns the money? WHo owns the profits? This is money that was once American, but no longer is.

-S

[NEON DEON]

No spin.

Just facts.

Some people here sometimes have a hard time with facts.Exactly - my thoughts too. As someone said above, it is not black and white, but still, who owns the money? WHo owns the profits? This is money that was once American, but no longer is.

-S

I agree that not all is black and white and that some money flows out of the country.

But cars are big ticket items that require huge infrastructures.

Honda does not make 85% profit on their businesses in the US it is more the reverse. Probably 15%. The rest is tied up in costs. Their are over 26,000 car dealerships in the US accounting for over $684 billion and almost all of them are owned by Americans.

This is a real interesting article showing how muddied the waters can be.

"For example, there is the confusing issue of ownership. Chrysler is now DaimlerChrysler. General Motors owns 49% of Isuzu, 20% of Fuji Heavy Industries, which produces Subaru, and 20% of Suzuki. Ford has a 33.4% share of Mazda, and DaimlerChrysler owns 37.3% of Mitsubishi. Ford Motor Co.’s portfolio of vehicles also includes English-built Jaguars and Land Rovers as well as Swedish-built Volvos."

and this on content:

"But the Kentucky-built Toyota Avalon ranks higher than the Chrysler PT Cruiser in domestic content, with 70% U.S./Canadian parts content and the 2004 Saturn VUE, the first General Motors Corp. vehicle to be offered with a Honda-built engine, will be more “American” when it hits the streets than the 2003 VUE that doesn’t have the Honda engine."


http://www.charlestonbusiness.com/pub/6_18/news/2930-1.html


Notes:

The Article was written before Daimler sold off Chrysler.

Also:

Honda also has a 22 year old engine plant In Ohio which now produces 1.15 million engines a year. The plant has produced over 15 million engines.

http://www.honda.no/sw3938.asp?Pid=8162

[bradclark1]

I look at it like this. Which cars have paint falling off them? Which new cars do you see broke down on the sides of roads. Which cars spend a good deal of time at the dealership for repairs? The ones that aren't on this list are the one's I'll buy.

[SUBMAN1]

I look at it like this. Which cars have paint falling off them? Which new cars do you see broke down on the sides of roads. Which cars spend a good deal of time at the dealership for repairs? The ones that aren't on this list are the one's I'll buy.I've had good luck on my SAAB. I'm on SAAB #7, and no real issues (knock on wood) other than a blown tranny. I of course was running 300 ft/lbs of torque through it, but thats a minor point. :D I guess it was designed for about 200 ft/lbs of torque! Peice of metal shot right through the metal casing. Good thing that didn't hit anybody, since it must have had tremendous force. It held up for about 5 years under that stress though, and I wasn't real nice to it if you know what I mean.

Anyway, the current SAAB has a lot of GM influence I see. For example, I have expensive Italian brakes with 6 piston calipers on the front, but crappy GM one caliper on the rear. I guess it works, but I might change that at some point. This one needs it's 300 ft/lbs of torque too. That ECU upgrade gives me 287, so close enough I guess (388 nm).

Last I checked (some Forbes report), SAAB as a corpration was number 6 on the list of cars least likely to have 'major problems'. This list does not include minor problems, but I haven't had really much of that either. Lexus and Infinity take spot #1 and #2 respectively. The oddball out was that Buick took the 3rd spot (who would have guessed?), followed by Cadillac and Lincoln. #7 was BMW. GM in general was in the top half of 41 (SAAB is a GM company for example). Worst was Kia, followed by VW. Toyota was still in the top 10. Honda wasn't though (don't they own Infinity though?). They were in the teens or so. Can't remember.

-S

[Chock]

What I don't understand is why someone called Subman would want a Corvette? I thought Corvettes and Subs were enemies:rotfl:

Chock

[SUBMAN1]

What I don't understand is why someone called Subman would want a Corvette? I thought Corvettes and Subs were enemies:rotfl:

ChockI'm just trying to corner the market on enemies. If I own the enemy, it is no longer an enemy now is it? :D

-S

[GT182]

Sorry Neon Demon, my mistake. :oops: And you are right.... it is Cerberus Capital Management. I've been told they shutdown everything they buy. Right now they're getting ready to offer a bigger buyout for employees than they did for the first buyout here in Newark.

[NEON DEON]

Sorry Neon Demon, my mistake. :oops:

QUICK! CALL AN EXORCIST!;)

NP GT666;)

[GT182]

LMAO...forgive the typo please. :oops: I was in a hurry... the "Warden" was yellen to me.

And a Merry Christmas to ya Neon Deon... and to all here at SubSim too. :yep:

[NEON DEON]

LMAO...forgive the typo please. :oops: I was in a hurry... the "Warden" was yellen to me.

And a Merry Christmas to ya Neon Deon... and to all here at SubSim too. :yep:

Merry Christmas to you and your family GT182.:up:

[bradclark1]

The oddball out was that Buick took the 3rd spot (who would have guessed?), followed by Cadillac and Lincoln. #7 was BMW. GM in general was in the top half of 41 (SAAB is a GM company for example). Worst was Kia, followed by VW. Toyota was still in the top 10. Honda wasn't though (don't they own Infinity though?).
Buick is the poor mans Cadillac. They are doing major business in China. Large chunk of Buicks business believe it or not.
Kia is a suprise. Owned two and never had a problem. My son owned a Kia Spectre and put 160k on it with no services except to change the oil. Blew his timing belt and brakes were gone so it was cheaper to buy a new one then repair that. Course mommy and daddy had to supply the down payment :nope: . Parenting never ends:roll: . Now I try and buy only American (Insert flag waving here)but I won't buy crap so it was a choice of Buick or Jeep. Because of where my wife works and me having to go to West Haven every two weeks in whatever weather and other factors I chose Jeep.

[Kraut]

In 2006 Buick sold more cars in China than the US. Which is a little surprising since their current lineup is much better than what they made in the 90's. Also, GM's effort to improve interior quality might actually make it feel somewhat like a luxury car.

I've never seen a used car guide give Saab a good review for reliability though. They are regarded as euro-junk.

Blew his timing belt and brakes were gone so it was cheaper to buy a new one then repair that.

Really? That sounds like an inexpensive repair.

[bradclark1]

Really? That sounds like an inexpensive repair.
160k + belt + brakes + never getting it serviced = not worth it.

I've never seen a used car guide give Saab a good review for reliability though. They are regarded as euro-junk.

I know the Saab 900s had a crappy reputation some years back.

[Bubblehead Nuke]

Really? That sounds like an inexpensive repair.

As someone who is in the automobile repair biz, I can tell you that this is NOT an inexpensive repair. It is an engine that gets fried when the timing belt breaks. What we call in 'interference' engine. We love to see them come in the shop with broken timing belts.

To all the 'money leaves America' folks?

Where do you think most of the parts that make a car a car come from? Sure, they may be made here,but a lot of the companies that MAKE the componets in the good 'ole U.S of A. are now foreign owned.

Like those tires on your car?? Got Michelins? Guess what? Money is going to France. Firestone/Bridgestone??? Japan there. Coopers??? How about Mexico and Canada.

It is not so simple anymore to just 'buy american'

[bradclark1]

It is not so simple anymore to just 'buy american'
I'll do what I can do. Remember the country Cadillac song? I'm not going to go that far.

[Kraut]

It is an engine that gets fried when the timing belt breaks. What we call in 'interference' engine.

Yes, I am aware of that, but many cars have non-interference engines. I would expect a simple 4 cylinder to be non-interference.

[Bubblehead Nuke]

Yes, I am aware of that, but many cars have non-interference engines. I would expect a simple 4 cylinder to be non-interference.

Actually, due to increasing restrictive emmision laws, most engines are made as an interference engine, this is due to the lowered squish height in the cylinders.

[SUBMAN1]

Really? That sounds like an inexpensive repair. 160k + belt + brakes + never getting it serviced = not worth it.

I've never seen a used car guide give Saab a good review for reliability though. They are regarded as euro-junk.
I know the Saab 900s had a crappy reputation some years back.Yep. It was easy to blow those old turbos that lacked intercoolers. I had one way back when. Had to wait for the turbo to cool before shutting the engine off. This is why you had so many with blown turbos. Many a owner never followed these simple guidelines. To replace one was extremely expensive too.

The current gen are incredibly reliable. This includes mid 1990's SAAB's and later. Basically, what you would call the 'GM Years'. When GM took over pretty much, they turned the whole thing around. They even invested $500 million into a new SAAB factory in Sweden. It is probably one of the slickest factories out there at the moment, completely automated.

If you look at my layout of where the car is made though, I was a bit shocked to see 49% made in Germany now. Only about 33% is made in Sweden???? SAAB is more German now that Swedish. What is up with that??? That makes it lose some of its charm I think.

-S