M4 outperformed

[JALU3]

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/12/army_carbine_dusttest_071217/

Revival of the XM8?
H&K 416 introduction?

[TteFAboB]

The M4 is the best looking of the bunch. While the XM8 does look like the rifle from Aliens that's exactly its place: in a fictional movie, not in the real world.

[antikristuseke]

Because in battle conditions you want your weapon to look good instead of being more resistand to fouling due to dust.:roll:

[Chock]

I love the intro to the article:

The M4 carbine, the weapon soldiers depend on in combat

That is until they find a discarded AK-47, at which point they use that.:rotfl:

:D Chock

[VipertheSniper]

I love the intro to the article:

The M4 carbine, the weapon soldiers depend on in combat

That is until they find a discarded AK-47, at which point they use that.:rotfl:

:D Chock

In CS maybe

[Peto]

My son uses an M4 (was able to pass on his SAW to someone else for this tour). He likes it. Very customizable to suit his taste and very dependable if you keep it clean (his words). He doesn't care much for the AK47 in comparison.

[SUBMAN1]

I love the intro to the article:

The M4 carbine, the weapon soldiers depend on in combat
That is until they find a discarded AK-47, at which point they use that.:rotfl:

:D ChockWhy? You trade something that might jam, for something so inaccuarate you can't hit sh*t with it? Seems to be the same situation to me! :D :rotfl::rotfl:

I think this is a wake up call for the Army to ditch their dust grubbing Teflon based lubricants and trade it for synthetic based which doesn't hold on to dust. This is why Miltec-1 is supply free of charge Miltec to anyone that wants it over there. You can run thousands of rounds through an M-16 without hiccup after this stuff is properly bonded. I personally don't remember what a jam looks like because of this stuff! :D

Break Free is what I believe they use over there, and that stuff just grabs and holds on to dirt like there is no tomorrow - leaving it in your rifle to cause problems.

-S

PS. Here is the website if you want some for yourself - http://www.militec1.com/


PPS. Watch this video - just watched it for the first time - http://www.militec.com/video/militec.html

[Dowly]

Gah, get rid of the M4 and buy some finnish made RK assault rifles. Doesnt jam and is accurate. :yep:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_0UdI1No82A

[SUBMAN1]

Gah, get rid of the M4 and buy some finnish made RK assault rifles. Doesnt jam and is accurate. :yep:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_0UdI1No82AThat thing has a little better armor penetration than the M-4. 6 mm is the armor penetration of the M855 rd. I guess if you use the M955 in an M-4, the armor penetration of the M-4 goes up to 12 mm, so maybe its not any better. Cool vid though. What did we all learn from it? Nothing beats a sandbag still! :D

-S

PS. An M-4 shouldn't jam either by the way. Just the knuckleheads and their lube is the problem.

[Chock]

To expand upon my original comment, I think you need to consider the fact that the AK-47 is an 'assault rifle' and as such, like all assault rifles, its primary purpose is not accuracy, but rate of fire for close quarter fire and maneuver tactics.

Anyone who ever done some combat training will know that in CQB, this consists of your buddy spraying covering fire to keep heads down while you move up, then you doing the same while he moves up, rinse and repeat until one of you is in range to lob a grenade. Pinpoint accuracy is not vital in these circumstances, reliability and rate of fire is, and if you don't have a squad support weapon to do that, you have your assault rifle for that purpose. The clue is in the name - assault rifle.

The AK-47 is built to very low tolerances, which of course means it is not accurate, but it doesn't need to be, nor was never intended to be, if you are using it for what it was designed for, but it does make it reliable and less prone to jam in the field.

I don't care how accurate an assault rifle is, it isn't going to enable you to assault anything if its jammed:rotfl:

:D Chock

[SUBMAN1]

I beg to differ with you. An assault rifle is designed for combat. What you describe is the sub machinegun class. An MP5 is much better suited to your described role. That Assault Rifle needs to be good out to at least 300 feet minimum. Trying to hit anything with an AK-47 at anything beyond 100 yards is an act in frustration. Its called spray and prey. With the M4, 500 yards is still a useful range.

Just tell this story to the 170 Iraqi Republican guards who sprayed with their AK's and all died at the hands of 4 US servicemen with M4's! :D

-S

PS. I've got time and thousands of rounds through all weapons mentioned on this page. I won't tell you what I own outright, but you might say I have personal knowledge with every weapon mentioned here.

[SUBMAN1]

One more thought here - trying to hit something beyond 100 yards with an AK is about as easy as hitting something beyond 700 to 800 yards with a 5.56 rd. This is assuming at least an 16" barrel or longer on both guns.

[Steel_Tomb]

What about the new rifle the Israeli's are producing? I'm sorry I can't remember what it was called, but it was on the "Future Weapons" prog on Discovery...was pretty acurate in comparison to the M4, has a built in laser sight too, nice bullpup design.

XM8 is horrible last I hear the plastic started to melt under prolonged firing and exposure to heat...

Not good for Iraq then lol...:dead:

[SUBMAN1]

Dunno if they will ever produce the XM8. It is still being debated. HK ususally builds a good gun so the XM8 may have just had a flaw that needs to be ironed out.

On another note, I shouldn't put down the AK too much. The AK-47 is a good weapon since it does have some redeeming qualities - It is not prone to jamming if decent ammo is used. It is pretty much idiot proof for maintenance. I can strip it quickly, clean it, and put it back together in no time. The M4/M16 is a bit more complicated, though I think the Jam rate between the M4 and AK-47 is similar since the ammo typically found with AK's is subpar many times, resulting in too little back pressure to fully cycle once in a while.

Not all AK's are created equal too. There is stamped and forged versions, with the forged being of better quality and less loose on the tolerances - supposedly. Anyway, I am not conviced that forged is all that much better though because I can't see much of a difference. It is much more costly to purchase however.

-S

PS. One thing I like about the M16 - I can strip it and modify it with a bullet. If I need to adjust the front sights, you can use a bullet to push down the pin. You can open up the hollow cleaning kit chamber with a bullet, and they say you can easily strip the gun with a bullet, though i find it is simpler to just push out the pins with your fingers. Stripping it and putting it back together is still relatively quick, though it takes more though than the AK, and it is easy to mess up the little rings that blow the bolt back with gas. Having brain block on what they are called, but you have to position them in three seperate directions for proper operation. Anyway, more complicated. This is where the AK shines.

[antikristuseke]

I beg to differ with you. An assault rifle is designed for combat. What you describe is the sub machinegun class. An MP5 is much better suited to your described role. That Assault Rifle needs to be good out to at least 300 feet minimum. Trying to hit anything with an AK-47 at anything beyond 100 yards is an act in frustration. Its called spray and prey. With the M4, 500 yards is still a useful range.


The AKM is good for a man sized target up to 300 meters not a mere 300 feet.

[Chock]

Anyway, I am not conviced that forged is all that much better though because I can't see much of a difference. It is much more costly to purchase however.
Try telling that to the British Army who had to pay Heckler and Koch a fortune to modify the SA-80/L-85 to get rid of the cheap crappy pressed parts it originally had, which resulted in all kinds of problems, not least of which was troops wandering around the streets of Belfast only to discover their mags had dropped out, leaving them with a rifle which was not ready to rock, not to mention handing the IRA a full clip of ammo!

It's a good rifle now, but it was a POS with its original pressed tin bits. And yes, there's a big difference between the many varieties of AKs and Chicom Type 56 knock offs, the earlier ones without the tin bits are greatly superior, got one on the wall behind me wall in fact.

:D Chock

[SUBMAN1]

Anyway, I am not conviced that forged is all that much better though because I can't see much of a difference. It is much more costly to purchase however.
Try telling that to the British Army who had to pay Heckler and Koch a fortune to modify the SA-80/L-85 to get rid of the cheap crappy pressed parts it originally had, which resulted in all kinds of problems, not least of which was troops wandering around the streets of Belfast only to discover their mags had dropped out, leaving them with a rifle which was not ready to rock, not to mention handing the IRA a full clip of ammo!

It's a good rifle now, but it was a POS with its original pressed tin bits. And yes, there's a big difference between the many varieties of AKs and Chicom Type 56 knock offs, the earlier ones without the tin bits are greatly superior, got one on the wall behind me wall in fact.

:D ChockLet me re-phrase - I am not convince it helps on a weapon like the AK-47. On something with tight tolerances, it probably makes a great deal of difference. On the flip side though, I never bought a stamped gun. All mine are forged.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

I beg to differ with you. An assault rifle is designed for combat. What you describe is the sub machinegun class. An MP5 is much better suited to your described role. That Assault Rifle needs to be good out to at least 300 feet minimum. Trying to hit anything with an AK-47 at anything beyond 100 yards is an act in frustration. Its called spray and prey. With the M4, 500 yards is still a useful range.

The AKM is good for a man sized target up to 300 meters not a mere 300 feet.Well, stop by and we will go test. 300 meters is possible, but not useful. 100 meters works fine. I think I have about 500 rds of 7.62x39 left, so we can test for an afternoon.

-S