Kriegsmarine Angriffscheibe Handbuch

[klh]

I have been enjoying the use of the German Attack Disc (a.k.a. whiz wheel, Is-Was) which I made from Hitman's instructions. In the process of learning how to use it, I collected several tips from this forum and other on-line sources, and began to write my own guide. It's not very original, nor anything that you can't find elsewhere, but I found it helpful to have it all collected in one document. Before I knew it, I had a small booklet that I decided worth sharing with the community.

Update 19 March 2008 - Version 3 is now available.

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=3405

This version is a major rewrite and includes more examples (18), is formatted to be printed into a booklet, and incorporates some corrections and additional reference information. It's now up to 25 MB.


It can be used with the printable attack disc...
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=529806&postcount=1

or the Flash version...
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=654509&postcount=1

or one of the in-game versions...
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=686224&postcount=1
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=665816&postcount=1

[KLARCH]

I have to print out these disks one of these days. They seem to take care of everything.

Very informative tutorial.:know:

[Alyebard]

Thanks, very usefull ! :up:

[joegrundman]

Hi klh

I've tried repeatedly to download this, but it's failed to download every time. :-?

joe

[klh]

Hi klh

I've tried repeatedly to download this, but it's failed to download every time. :-?

joe

Hmmm. :hmm: This is the first thing I've ever put on FileFront so I could have messed it up, but the link works for me. When is it failing?

Send me a PM with your email, and I can email it to you. It's 3.2 MB.

[joegrundman]

actually i now think the problem is at my end. PM on it's way:up:

[jimmie]

Good work :up:

[Jimbuna]

Thanks, I'll read it with interest :up:

http://www.itsnature.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfmoon.jpg


http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd320/pasquarade/wolf-38.gif

[jimmie]

Ok, again thank you for the tutorial.

I have little memory on trigonometry now but trying to beat my brain...
I'm also using a real sliderule to find out the target's speed by law of sine (unfortunatelly typical sliderules don't have "minute" or "knots" scales so it'll take more work other than finding speed by S scale..)

At the end of Example 6 you wrote that you could also calculate diverting tagert speed (via the formula on the tutorial).

I understand convergent course case (is it all angles in the triangle less than 90, right?) but I can't grahpically imagine the triangle and component for the diverting case. (I don't know the English name for the triangle which has an angle larger than 90 deg) I mean... in the converget course case, I imagine a triangle ABC, where A, B, C are angles and a, b, c are sides opposite to the same name angles. so, I imagine:

- uboat is on B, and angle B is scope reading (bearing to target)
- a is uboat speed
- target is on A, angle A is AOB and b is the target speed, found by the sliderule easily (in this case typical sliderule's C/D scale can represent knot because it's just a ratio problem without conversion).

Now, what's it's like for the diverting course triangle? I actually had problem finding out target's speed when I wasn't at collision course..

[klh]

Now, what's it's like for the diverting course triangle? I actually had problem finding out target's speed when I wasn't at collision course..

It helps me to draw a picture. Consider a target that is heading away from you on a constant relative bearing.

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/3535/divergingcourseii5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

You are right that your course and the target's course no longer form a triangle. But if the target is remaining on a constant bearing, then you both would have occupied a single point behind you (think of a collision in the past). The lines from the stern do form a triangle. The problem is still workable, only we must now calculate the angles A' and B'. A'=180-A, and B'=180-B. Therefore, the target's speed is...

Target speed = Own speed [ sin (180° - B) / sin (180° - A)



In the above example, A=150, B=80, and the target is traveling at 3.9 knots.

Does that help?

[jimmie]

Now, what's it's like for the diverting course triangle? I actually had problem finding out target's speed when I wasn't at collision course..
It helps me to draw a picture. Consider a target that is heading away from you on a constant relative bearing.

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/3535/divergingcourseii5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

You are right that your course and the target's course no longer form a triangle. But if the target is remaining on a constant bearing, then you both would have occupied a single point behind you (think of a collision in the past). The lines from the stern do form a triangle. The problem is still workable, only we must now calculate the angles A' and B'. A'=180-A, and B'=180-B. Therefore, the target's speed is...
Target speed = Own speed [ sin (180° - B) / sin (180° - A)



In the above example, A=150, B=80, and the target is traveling at 3.9 knots.

Does that help?

YES!! Thank you VERY much! :rock: I will try this in the game to digest well!

I think you should include this somewhat "advanced" (?) example in the already well-written tutorial to make it yet better!

[klh]

YES!! Thank you VERY much! :rock: I will try this in the game to digest well!

I think you should include this somewhat "advanced" (?) example in the already well-written tutorial to make it yet better!

By the way Jimmie, either formula will work for convergent or divergent courses. Because the sine function is symmetrical around 90 degrees, we don't really have to subtract the angles from 180. It's just easier for me to visualize, and the attack disc calculator only goes up to 90 degrees.






In other words...sin (Angle) = sin (180-Angle)


Therefore...sin (AOB) = sin (180-AOB)
sin (TB) = sin (180-TB)


Target speed = Own speed [ sin (180° - B) / sin (180° - A) ] = Own speed [ sin (B) / sin (A) ]


In the above example:

Target speed = 2 knots [ sin (80) / sin (150) ] = 2 knots [ sin (100) / sin (30) ] = 3.9 knots

[jimmie]

Yeah, I just didn't realize I could just use angle values by subtracting from 180, and simply could put speed (sides) astern of the ship on the imaginary triangle, that is: if the target is remaining on a constant bearing, then you both would have occupied a single point behind you (think of a collision in the past) --- it doesn't matter ahead or beheind since the problem we're trying to solve is just ratio in the triangle.

Since I read this thread: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=94608 I've been trying to use sliderule. After playing with virtual sliderules, I ended up getting a real Pickett 600ES (I should've gotten a longer one).

As I wrote in the above, a typical sliderule doesn't have "knot" nor "minute" scale so things like (ship length/seconds)*1.944 cannot be done in one no-brainer operation like in Hitman's circuler sliderule, but law of sine method is just fine :D


BTW, I like your rec book very much! I want one :D Using lots of external physical material gains immersion a lot. You can gather all information except range with real tools (have a stopwatch?).

[klh]

BTW, I like your rec book very much! I want one :D Using lots of external physical material gains immersion a lot. You can gather all information except range with real tools (have a stopwatch?).

You can find the recognition book on Terrapin's website (http://ubrsdlc.realsimulation.com/), but it appears to be down right now. If we can get his permission, I would be glad to put it up on FileFront. It takes some work to put together, but it adds a tremendous amount to realism. I've also got some printouts of real Kriegsmarine maps (not the gamey one that came with SH3) that add a little bit to the realism.

And no, I do not have a mechanical stopwatch yet. I can't seem to find one for a reasonable price.

As for range, I'm hoping to find the time to create a table or whiz wheel that allows you to calculate range knowing mast height and degrees in the periscope/UZO (by counting the ticks in the reticle).

[jimmie]

Is the rec book mentioned new one? I remember someone made printable rec book about a couple of months after the release of SH3. What ships are included in it?

Hey I missed the chance to get the "official" rec book when it was included in the US pre-order of SH3, and I remember Neal gave us as a pirse at some time at subsim.com for some contest or even at SimHQ Teddy Bear gave it us at some occasion when he was the moderator of Naval/SilentHunter forum...

The monstrous package of hyped GWX version 2 has great numbers of new ships (actually I don't remember how many ships in the original except torp-worth merchants) and moreover, aren't we impatiently anticipating iambecomelife's merchant ships ;)
So I guess I anyway need to create one by myself if I want the catalogue of all avail now.

As for range, back then someone made a simple table and I found it in my harddrive. But it's limited to "generic" ships (mast height 10.5m or 25m and C2/C3 cargo). Performing a calculation with some sliderule may be better way for this...

BTW, I excavated this thread: http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=46693 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/../phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=46693) in my SH3 folder (I seem to saved don1reed's what_is_track.jpg which seems to be missing now, it's a table of AOB and distance)

[klh]

Is the rec book mentioned new one? I remember someone made printable rec book about a couple of months after the release of SH3. What ships are included in it?

No, it came out not too long after SH3 was released. It does not have all the new units in it that have come out since, but it works for me because I'm still playing mostly stock SH3. You could always print out some extra pages and insert them - realistic too since the Kriegsmarine would be making updates as the war went on.

BTW, I excavated this thread: http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=46693 in my SH3 folder (I seem to saved don1reed's what_is_track.jpg which seems to be missing now, it's a table of AOB and distance)

Thanks for that. It is useful for calculating your best speed to intercept within torpedo range.

[Puster Bill]

YES!! Thank you VERY much! :rock: I will try this in the game to digest well!

I think you should include this somewhat "advanced" (?) example in the already well-written tutorial to make it yet better!
By the way Jimmie, either formula will work for convergent or divergent courses. Because the sine function is symmetrical around 90 degrees, we don't really have to subtract the angles from 180. It's just easier for me to visualize, and the attack disc calculator only goes up to 90 degrees.



One of the neat things about the American version (SACF/IS-WAS) is that the wheel with the Sine scale on it had 4 of them to cover the entire compass:

006 to 090 degrees
096 to 180 degrees
186 to 270 degrees
276 to 360 degrees.

You don't have to do any conversions in your head or on paper. You just read them off the wheel. That helps quite a bit when using it to find the AOB of a ship that is greater than 90 degrees.

[joegrundman]

I have three things to say here:

You want a whiz wheel to hand work out range? - try the very thing available in the U-jagd tools mod or the OLC-GUI which incorporates said tools.

Secondly, the U-jagd tools 1.3, which will be released soon, includes a 3 wheel circular slide rule. I chose to model it on the American one for the reason that Puster Bill mentions.

Thirdly, klh, are you by any chance near completing the updated manual that you mentioned to me you were planning to do? I would like, if I may, to include your manual with the U-jagd 1.3 download. Alternatively, I'll just link to it.

Joe

[jimmie]

Mine is this: http://www.antiquark.com/sliderule/sim/virtual-slide-rule.html

Well, not virtual, real one. Yes, since its S scale is 6 - 90, I need to perform simple subtraction for anything beyond 90 but that won't hurt much; it's maybe alternative to "Brain Age" on Nintendo DS :p And knot - km conversion is simple... the most fundamental usage of sliderule is multiplication and division, anyway ;)

[Puster Bill]

Mine is this: http://www.antiquark.com/sliderule/sim/virtual-slide-rule.html

Well, not virtual, real one. Yes, since its S scale is 6 - 90, I need to perform simple subtraction for anything beyond 90 but that won't hurt much; it's maybe alternative to "Brain Age" on Nintendo DS :p And knot - km conversion is simple... the most fundamental usage of sliderule is multiplication and division, anyway ;)

I'd love an N600. I had to settle for an N200 Trig (because the prices for an N600 on Ebay are ridiculous!). It's the same size as the N600, but it doesn't have all the scales. On the back side it has the C, D, S, T, and ST scales, which are the only ones you really need. Well, the S, ST (for small bearing changes less than 6 degrees), and the C and D.

[jimmie]

Just in case you want one,

I got mine at: http://www.houseofsliderulers.com/ for about $30... the one I got from them came with the original box (aged) and very good manual which is old too (seemed printed in some 50s) but the sliderule and the leather case is almost new - I think it is indeed new...

Upon the order placement I didn't get any confirmation email etc from them but they responced my inquiry in a manner and got the thing in a week or two. Not bad for a new famous rule :lol:

[klh]

Thirdly, klh, are you by any chance near completing the updated manual that you mentioned to me you were planning to do? I would like, if I may, to include your manual with the U-jagd 1.3 download. Alternatively, I'll just link to it.

Joe

Joe,

I am almost finished with my update. I corrected the issues you noted, as well as adding a few more uses (such as calculating distance to track, and best speed for a firing solution). I hope to get it done this weekend, and you are welcome to include or link, whichever you choose.

[ejhawk56]

Thanks klh for the great manual you provided for this fine tool provided by the U-jagd team (thanks Joe,hitman and olc). I learn much quicker with visual examples so your manual is perfect. I love fooling around with these kind of tools and it is the reason I have a renewed interest in SH3.

Looking forward to the new version of the manual...I think I noticed a couple of small mistakes in example 2 part 4(disc B instead of A) and part 5 (80 to Starboard).Either that I was doing it wrong...maybe the things Joe already brought up to you.

What I would love to see is some workbook type problems at the end of the manual(with the correct answers provided to make sure I have it right before I leave port!) Not sure if this would be alot of work on your part.

Again,thanks for a great reference. Gives me something to study when I spend QUALITY time with my wife away from the computer.:yep:

Eric

[klh]

I think I noticed a couple of small mistakes in example 2 part 4(disc B instead of A) and part 5 (80 to Starboard). Either that I was doing it wrong...maybe the things Joe already brought up to you.

Thanks Eric. You were doing it right. Those items are corrected in version 2.

What I would love to see is some workbook type problems at the end of the manual(with the correct answers provided to make sure I have it right before I leave port!) Not sure if this would be alot of work on your part.

That's an interesting idea. I don't know if I'll have time to do that this weekend, but if not, then maybe later.

Gives me something to study when I spend QUALITY time with my wife away from the computer.

Not to give out advice, but I have found that my wife usually appreciates it more if I spend the quality time WITH her - heart, soul, AND mind. ;)

[ejhawk56]

What I would love to see is some workbook type problems at the end of the manual(with the correct answers provided to make sure I have it right before I leave port!) Not sure if this would be alot of work on your part.
[quote=klh]
That's an interesting idea. I don't know if I'll have time to do that this weekend, but if not, then maybe later.

That would be great if you decide to do it. Take your time....I hope I'm not the only geek that would find it useful to work through the problems.:hmm:

Gives me something to study when I spend QUALITY time with my wife away from the computer.
[quote=klh]
Not to give out advice, but I have found that my wife usually appreciates it more if I spend the quality time WITH her - heart, soul, AND mind. ;)

Yes, great advice and fortunately I was being a bit tounge-in-cheek. I must admit that I did bring your manual with me when we went on vacation last week.She was ok with this though because she is an avid reader and enjoys having me as her reading buddy during the evening hours. My Uboat book collection has grown substantially in the past few years...quite an addictive hobby.:rock:

Eric

[Sailor Steve]

ejhawk56, WELCOME ABOARD!:sunny:

[ejhawk56]

Thanks for the welcome Sailor Steve :up:

[joegrundman]

hey ejhawk56 welcome to subsim, and I'm glad you like the U-jagd tools. I'm putting the finishing touches to 1.3 and it includes some significant improvements :D

Thanks a lot klh, that would be great if it's done by this weekend. I'm hoping to release 1.3 early next week, monday or tuesday, and it would be great if i could either link or include your guide.

joe

[Jimbuna]

Welcome aboard Kaleun ejhawk56 http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[Puster Bill]

Just in case you want one,

I got mine at: http://www.houseofsliderulers.com/ for about $30... the one I got from them came with the original box (aged) and very good manual which is old too (seemed printed in some 50s) but the sliderule and the leather case is almost new - I think it is indeed new...

Upon the order placement I didn't get any confirmation email etc from them but they responced my inquiry in a manner and got the thing in a week or two. Not bad for a new famous rule :lol:
That's not too bad. Maybe I'll put a bug in my wife's ear about it.

Although, since I have one that is roughly the same size and has all the stuff I need on it, I may just decide to get one of Pickett's circular rules.

By the way, you can make your own, if you want. Just go to http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/build.html (http://http//www.sphere.bc.ca/test/build.html)

The circular ones are the easiest to build.

[jimmie]

Hehe, when I was in the University there were already relatively affordable scientific calculators so I never had been taught sliderules. I remember my father kept one (proabaly henmi) in his desk but he didn't tell me how to use it, either. :D We had lecutres of abacus in elm school, tho (forgot completely and can't operate at all now).

Thanks for the link. I'd love to have a circular one.
(OT, upon visiting the site, I was actually caught by the oscilloscope...
Useful only for hobby purpose in my current life I can't justify even the second hands)

[Puster Bill]

Hehe, when I was in the University there were already relatively affordable scientific calculators so I never had been taught sliderules. I remember my father kept one (proabaly henmi) in his desk but he didn't tell me how to use it, either. :D We had lecutres of abacus in elm school, tho (forgot completely and can't operate at all now).

Thanks for the link. I'd love to have a circular one.
(OT, upon visiting the site, I was actually caught by the oscilloscope...
Useful only for hobby purpose in my current life I can't justify even the second hands)

I remember fooling around with one my dad had back in the early 1970's. I couldn't figure out how you would measure anything with it!

SHIII is what led me into the wonderful world of mechanical calculation.

[klh]

I have posted an expanded and improved version of the Angriffscheibe Handbuch. Find the link at the top of the thread, or on my filefront page.

This version includes more examples, is formatted to be printed into a booklet, and incorporates some corrections (special thanks to Joe and Eric).

Please leave any feedback you have, especially if you find any errors.

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Downloading, thanks for your work. :) I've just read twice the 1st version, so should be quite easy to see the difference at once.

Version 3 must have animated pictures! :up:

[Puster Bill]

OK, I just quickly took a look at it, looks good! Can't wait to actually try it out, especially the lead angle/zero gyro method. That will come in handy if we ever get a WWI Silent Hunter (Don't know about Shells of Fury).

[joegrundman]

You can do it in SH3 if you turn off the TDC and set the speed to 0, then the gyro angle can be controlled directly by rotating the bearing to target dial in the TDC.:D

[Puster Bill]

You can do it in SH3 if you turn off the TDC and set the speed to 0, then the gyro angle can be controlled directly by rotating the bearing to target dial in the TDC.:D

Oh, I know. There was a thread seems like several decafortnights ago about how to do that.

I haven't done it lately, but I did do it back when I first started manual targeting.

[ejhawk56]

Thanks klh for this nice updated manual. Very professional looking! (as was the first edition). Your simple but detailed approach has spiked my interest in taking the time to really learn this fine tool. Printing it off tonight as it will have a permanent spot on the shelf next to my U boat Commander's Handbook.

Still hope to see a nice supplemental "Angriffscheibe Workbook" to nail home all the examples in your handbook for us aspiring Kaleuns wanting to take it to the next level in immersion.;) ;) :up:

Eric

[joegrundman]

Very nice work klh, and thanks for permitting me to bundle it with the U-jagd tools 1.3 mod.

Much obliged:)

[klh]

Still hope to see a nice supplemental "Angriffscheibe Workbook" to nail home all the examples in your handbook for us aspiring Kaleuns wanting to take it to the next level in immersion.

I appreciate the compliments. I'll definitely consider putting together some worksheets similar to what an aspiring Kaleun might use in sub school. It's fun to work on things like that when I'm away from my home PC and can't actually play.

[klh]

Very nice work klh, and thanks for permitting me to bundle it with the U-jagd tools 1.3 mod.

Much obliged:)

You're welcome! Glad to work with you.

[Pisces]

I finally made my own 'hardcopy' version of the KM Angriffscheibe yesterday from Hitman's files. Although Joegrundman and OLC put one also in their mods, there's nothing better than holding one in your hands and using it, IMHO.

I have a question about one of the pointers. On the side with the compass wheels there is the pointer used for setting scope bearing, IIRC "Angriff kurs". (attack course, or perhaps attack bearing) On it are 2 symbols, one on either end of the pointer. The text "Vorh. Bug" on one side indicates it has to do with the bow (of Uboot or target i don't know), and the other with the stern "Vorh. Heck". Does anybody have an idea how both symbols/texts fit into the use of these disks. When should one use the bow-side as scope bearing, and when the other. I suspect it has to do with bow and stern torpedo shots. But I can't quite figure it out.

Something in the handbuch/manual v2 I would like to make a remark about. Page 9, Example 3 Sorry, I couldn't make a good copy of that page, provided text only to show what it's about. Check the manual for uboot-target drawing.
1. Place the A disc with 180° at the top.
2. Turn the B disc until your true course (195°) is aligned with the 180° triangle mark on disc A.
3. Move the transparent D rotor to the target’s bearing (135°) on the A disc.
4. Rotate the C disc so it intersects the D transparent pointer at the estimated AOB (30° port).
5. Read the target's course from the B disc where the C disc index points. The target’s course is 180°.
6. To find your perpendicular intercept course read where the perpendicular line on the C disc points to the B disc. Since the target is off our starboard (right) side, then read the intercept course from the green line. You should come right to intercept course 270° true.

Note: If you wish to run an intercept course for a stern shot, then read the opposite side of disc C. In this case, turn left to heading 90° true.
The way I see it is much simpler. In this situation it is most economical to shoot at the target's port beam (left 90 deg AOB, red side) with a bow shot, like the manual says. If you look closely at the yellow middle (true north) disk you see a clockwise course scale on the outside and a reverse course (counter-clockwise) on the inside of it. This inside (reverse) course scale is right next to the 'Lage' disk. So to hit a target at any desired AOB with bow torpedo's you turn to the course on the reverse compass that it is aligned with. Red 90 is aligned with 270 deg. Red 45 AOB for something like a magnetic shot would be course 315 in this case. (assuming you are ahead far enough for that) See what I mean? It is slightly different as meant in your step 6 and the note below. You shouldn't have to look at the green side if you want to hit the red side.

[joegrundman]

In the early version of the templates for that tool there was a silght error in the location of the two ship images labelled Vorh. Heck and Vorh. Bug, as the tool wasn't yet fully understood by us at subsim. Later Hitman managed to obtain the actual KM manual for the tool, and since then has shared how to use it with any who ask.These two features are intended to interact with the Vorhalt arm, that is the funny shaped wheel. The locations of the two boat images should be such that the short tails on each boat will neatly indicate a position on the Vorhalt wheel.Once you have an intercept course, and have gathered your necesssary data, you use slide rules to calculate the necessary lead angle (vorhalt) to hit the target. You then set the vorhalt arm to show the AOB of the target at the moment of firing. You then set the bearing indicator to show the correct lead angle on the vorhalt arm, taking into account whether it is a Bow (Bug) or Stern (Heck) shot, and read off the opposite side of the arm the course that you should follow to be able to shoot the target with a 000 gyro angle. Alternatively the difference between your course at the moment of firing and the indicated lead angle course is the gyro angle you should use

[ejhawk56]

Still hope to see a nice supplemental "Angriffscheibe Workbook" to nail home all the examples in your handbook for us aspiring Kaleuns wanting to take it to the next level in immersion.

I appreciate the compliments. I'll definitely consider putting together some worksheets similar to what an aspiring Kaleun might use in sub school. It's fun to work on things like that when I'm away from my home PC and can't actually play.

Will be looking forward to this! Time to make myself a wheel to do some serious studying with. The old brain is taking longer to absorb stuff than it use to:know:

I'm hooked. It's like a game within a game.

[klh]

The way I see it is much simpler. In this situation it is most economical to shoot at the target's port beam (left 90 deg AOB, red side) with a bow shot, like the manual says. If you look closely at the yellow middle (true north) disk you see a clockwise course scale on the outside and a reverse course (counter-clockwise) on the inside of it. This inside (reverse) course scale is right next to the 'Lage' disk. So to hit a target at any desired AOB with bow torpedo's you turn to the course on the reverse compass that it is aligned with. Red 90 is aligned with 270 deg. Red 45 AOB for something like a magnetic shot would be course 315 in this case. (assuming you are ahead far enough for that) See what I mean? It is slightly different as meant in your step 6 and the note below. You shouldn't have to look at the green side if you want to hit the red side.

You may be on to something there. Joe's answer to your first question also gave me some ideas. It looks like I'll have to work on a version 3!

[Pisces]

In the early version of the templates for that tool there was a silght error in the location of the two ship images labelled Vorh. Heck and Vorh. Bug, as the tool wasn't yet fully understood by us at subsim. Later Hitman managed to obtain the actual KM manual for the tool, and since then has shared how to use it with any who ask.These two features are intended to interact with the Vorhalt arm, that is the funny shaped wheel. The locations of the two boat images should be such that the short tails on each boat will neatly indicate a position on the Vorhalt wheel.Once you have an intercept course, and have gathered your necesssary data, you use slide rules to calculate the necessary lead angle (vorhalt) to hit the target. You then set the vorhalt arm to show the AOB of the target at the moment of firing. You then set the bearing indicator to show the correct lead angle on the vorhalt arm, taking into account whether it is a Bow (Bug) or Stern (Heck) shot, and read off the opposite side of the arm the course that you should follow to be able to shoot the target with a 000 gyro angle. Alternatively the difference between your course at the moment of firing and the indicated lead angle course is the gyro angle you should useI see, the 'angriff kurs' pointer with those symbols that I printed out is indeed different from the pointer shown on the screenshot on the first post of your mod thread. The symbols in your mod are moved away from the center compared to mine, they are also moved outward in the final flash executable. But your's is indentical with mine regarding to the missing centerline, that is there in the flash executable. And your mod and mine has a black triangle at the tip, while the executable flash version (and the manual) has a red triangle. So they are all a little bit different versions. I printed the latest version of Hitman's kriegmarine whizwheel v1.1. As I noticed some other inaccuracies and cosmetic bits I will contact him for an update.

I'm not too happy about my transparent parts anyway. Because they are inktjet transparencies they have one rough side that makes air bubbles a certainty when laminating. Unfortunately the hinge is allready glued together.

[Pisces]

The way I see it is much simpler. In this situation it is most economical to shoot at the target's port beam (left 90 deg AOB, red side) with a bow shot, like the manual says. If you look closely at the yellow middle (true north) disk you see a clockwise course scale on the outside and a reverse course (counter-clockwise) on the inside of it. This inside (reverse) course scale is right next to the 'Lage' disk. So to hit a target at any desired AOB with bow torpedo's you turn to the course on the reverse compass that it is aligned with. Red 90 is aligned with 270 deg. Red 45 AOB for something like a magnetic shot would be course 315 in this case. (assuming you are ahead far enough for that) See what I mean? It is slightly different as meant in your step 6 and the note below. You shouldn't have to look at the green side if you want to hit the red side.

You may be on to something there. Joe's answer to your first question also gave me some ideas. It looks like I'll have to work on a version 3!I have another tip for this manual. It involves angles smaller than 5.7 degrees (like torpedo lead/gyro) that the outer angle ring doesn't have. But it requires using a pointer tool too that isn't part of the disk set that Hitman made. Before assembly of my handheld disk was finnished I realised it was quite difficult to align a certain angle with a certain mark on the time disk. So I made a pointer tool myself. I took a long leftover strip of transparent sheet and drew a radial line on it, long enough to reach the edge of the angle disk. Made a fold there to make a U-shape and placed the non-radial-line end between the large and middle disk (to move freely ofcourse around the hinge). The radial-line-half spans across the yellow and time disk over to the hingepoint(again to move freely, not glued!). Hopefully I can convince Hitman to add one to the log-calculator side in another version.

The trick is as follows: I assume you have the middle and inner disks set in a certain way based on a previous 'small angle' calculation. And on one of them is a number that is pointing to a location on the angle disk that represents an angle smaller than 5.7 degrees (left of 90 degrees). The trick is first to 'memorize' this angle position 'in the disk' by aligning the extra pointer tool to it. Now you are free to move the middle wheel to use as a alternative angle wheel. Why? Because the sine of small angles is quite proportional to the angle itself. You should line up the outside 6000m mark on the yellow distance/speed disk to the 6 degrees angle mark on the darkbrown angle disk. And see where the extra pointer tool intersects the yellow disk scale. There is the angle that is smaller than 5.7 degrees. Note ofcourse!!, this angle would be below 5.7 degrees, but can just as easily mean below 0.57 or 0.057 based on the calculation that lead to it. The disks can't tell the difference between 0.01, 0.1, 1, or 10 and so on. You should know which one is right!

[klh]

But it requires using a pointer tool too that isn't part of the disk set that Hitman made. Before assembly of my handheld disk was finnished I realised it was quite difficult to align a certain angle with a certain mark on the time disk. So I made a pointer tool myself. I took a long leftover strip of transparent sheet and drew a radial line on it, long enough to reach the edge of the angle disk. Made a fold there to make a U-shape and placed the non-radial-line end between the large and middle disk (to move freely ofcourse around the hinge). The radial-line-half spans across the yellow and time disk over to the hingepoint(again to move freely, not glued!).

Interesting. Could you post a picture of that by any chance?

[Pisces]

I'm sure this will do.

http://members.home.nl/rico.v.jansen/freepointer.jpg

[Puster Bill]

The problem with your idea Pisces is that the ST scale (ie., small values of Sine and Tangent) doesn't correspond exactly with the Sine scale.

For example, on my Pickett N200-ES Trig, the S and ST scales are next to each other.

6 degrees S and .6 degrees ST line up pretty much exactly. THere is a slight difference between 10 degrees S and 1 degree ST.

By the time you get to 2 degrees on the ST scale, you are at 20.5 on S and at 3 degrees you are at 31.5 on S. At 5 degrees ST, you are at 62 degrees S.

There should be a separate ST scale on the wheel if you are going to deal with small angle values.

[Pisces]

The problem with your idea Pisces is that the ST scale (ie., small values of Sine and Tangent) doesn't correspond exactly with the Sine scale.

For example, on my Pickett N200-ES Trig, the S and ST scales are next to each other.

6 degrees S and .6 degrees ST line up pretty much exactly. THere is a slight difference between 10 degrees S and 1 degree ST.

By the time you get to 2 degrees on the ST scale, you are at 20.5 on S and at 3 degrees you are at 31.5 on S. At 5 degrees ST, you are at 62 degrees S.

There should be a separate ST scale on the wheel if you are going to deal with small angle values.I agree that it is going to be in-accurate, and a ST scale is missing. But I am seeing this as an approximation it in a counter-clockwise way (also, I was reffering to the Angriff scheibe, not a linear sliderule), while you are looking at it clockwise the way you describe it.

Since it's no problem calculating angles above 5.7-ish degrees, I suggested extending the angle scale to the left of 5.7 degrees only by crossing over to the meter scale on the yellow disk (when 6000m is aligned to 6 degrees). Once looking below 5.7 degrees I ignore the marks on the dark brown scale. I look where my free pointer is over the meter scale and take that as a good (enough) approximation. I mean, as much as my obsession with accuracy secretly desires it, we do not need sub-arc-minute (no pun intended) resolution, do we? Trust me, sin(x)/x becomes more linear the closer you get to x=0. The sine scale becomes an ordinary log scale the more you go counterclockwise (or left in linear rulers).

[ejhawk56]

You may be on to something there. Joe's answer to your first question also gave me some ideas. It looks like I'll have to work on a version 3!

Glad I didn't have enough ink to print off the new version yet...looks like more interesting things to come!

Very interesting discussions....now to go figure out what the hell you're all talking about:hmm:

[klh]

Glad I didn't have enough ink to print off the new version yet...looks like more interesting things to come!


Don't get too excited. It took me over a month to get version 2 out, and real life is as busy as ever. It will probably be a while before version 3 comes along.

[ejhawk56]

Glad I didn't have enough ink to print off the new version yet...looks like more interesting things to come!


Don't get too excited. It took me over a month to get version 2 out, and real life is as busy as ever. It will probably be a while before version 3 comes along.


No problem KLH. Plenty for me to digest for now...RL tends to get in the way on this end too.

[klh]

I have published a new version of the Angriffscheibe Handbuch (version 3). You can find the link at the top of this thread, or on my filefront page.

This revision is a major rewrite (32 pages), and now includes 18 examples of how to use the disc. It is formatted to be printed into a booklet (with a front and back cover).

It incorporates some changes to our understanding of how the disc was likely used by the Kriegsmarine.

I must give special thanks and recognition to Joegrundman and Hitman for their help and advice.

If you haven't already, go full manual TDC and "be more aggressive"!

[jmr]

Just downloaded . . . wow what a big update! Thanks for this new and improved version, klh.

[Alyebard]

Just downloaded. You are a Master of Trigonometry :know:. Superb work. :yep:

[SteveW1]

It looks like filefront has deleted the file any chance of reposting it please.

Steve

[Pisces]

I have uploaded it to my Filefront page to mirror.

http://files.filefront.com/Angriffsscheibe+Handbuch+3pdf/;13402461;/fileinfo.html

[klh]

It looks like filefront has deleted the file any chance of reposting it please.

Steve

I've re-uploaded it to my FF page as well. Thanks for letting me know.

[SteveW1]

Thankyou very much am downloading now and hopefully will be able to learn something new to enhance my gameplay.:salute:

Steve

[jasonb885]

The most amazing thing ever. Thank you!

[reaper7]

Links are down to Handbook. Any chace of a reupload or PM link :cry:

Ok found it on another link

http://download845.filefront.com/0iqxerhltyvg/Angriffsscheibe_Handbuch_3.pdf

[Pisces]

That one seems to be down too. The attackdisk manual is the 2nd from the top on my filefront page (link in my signature)

[klh]

That one seems to be down too. The attackdisk manual is the 2nd from the top on my filefront page (link in my signature)

EDIT: It seems to take a while for the site to respond but it should start to offer the download eventually. They do seem to screw up their links though. If there is a slash character behind the file-extension (.pdf/), then remove the slash. It's not like they are overburdend with traffic. Download speed is around 150KB/s.

Thanks Pisces. I haven't bothered putting it anywhere else since Filefront started deleting files.

[berobispo]

Hi!

Great work! printed out and built my own wiz wheel yesterday:yeah:. But I wondered, the manual from joegrundman describes a method of measuring the elapsed time when the target has changed a small number of degrees (while being on a collision course before) to estimate range. His method uses the SCAF, which has smaller divisions available for the sine scale. I have seen this has been discussed before and I saw that the U-jagd mod uses an in game version of the KM wiz wheel but with the SCAF rear side. So, finally: my question is:

-Is the "Passive sonar approach" method from joegrundman feasible with the currrent downloadable version of the KM wiz wheel? I guess I could use six degrees, where the KM wiz wheel starts to count...


ps.: I have nothing against the USN:03:, but I'm lazy, and already have a wiz wheel I want to stick with!

[Pisces]

Ok, now I get what you meant (in the thread in the SH4 department). The SCAF disk has another ring on the AOB sine-scale that also shows marks between 5.7 and about .5 degrees, besides the rings of marks between 6 degrees and 90 (and for the other quadrants which are the same marks). Can this used/done with the KM attackdisk? Yes and No! Sort of...

Yes, in the sense that you can sort of 'extend' the AOB scale by aligning the 6000 mark with the 6 degrees mark. And then consider each thousand mark going counter-clockwise as being the corresponding degree. If you go around the wheel and end up back at 7000 it really is 0.7 degrees, because at 1000 equal to 1 degree. Now thankfully, with these small angles it turns out that the sine of 1 degrees is almost exactly 10 times bigger than the sine of 0.1 degrees. (grab an electronic calculator and compare sin(0.01), sin(0.1), sin(1) and sin(10) ;) ) The smaller the angle, the more exact this decimal-shift becomes. On the upper side of the scale, larger angles from something like 20 toward 90 degrees, it doesn't work anymore. It get's increasingly less exact.

However...

Here is the 'No' answer. I do not really know which method or disk sliding procedure Joegrundman performed in his technique, but it probably required the yellowish disk to be kept in a certain relation to the angle disk. This means that you shouldn't align that 6 degrees to the 6000 mark if you don't want to complicate things. If you can keep track of which marks are important and which marks line-up with which marks on another scale, then you could try. But this is definately not for the faint at hart. You thuroughly need to understand how this disk works inside and out. Understand the math behind it.

Edit: I also added a free pointer on that side which helps alot in 'memorizing' some marks of intermediate results.

[Red Heat]

Very interesting stuff...downloading! :up:

[briklebritt]

Link to German Attack Disc handbook is broken. can u give an alternative link?

[Pisces]

You can find it in the link at the bottom of this message. 3rd from the top.

[Panser]

Thanks Pisces, I was interested in the handbook too!

[Pisces]

You can find it in the link at the bottom of this message. 3rd from the top.File/Gamefront took it down. But it is up again:

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20910875/

[Tavs]

Just and update (to keep threads current with information that is valid) .. this file Angriffsscheibe-Handbuch-3.pdf can be found below here on the download section:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=3405

This is the English version.

:woot:

[Captain Johno]

Angriffsscheibe_Handbuch_3 (18.83 MB) available @

Link : https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=3405

. . . if your looking. Thanks!



:Kaleun_Salute::Kaleun_Cheers:

[RipTorn]

Fileplanet no longer exists, is there anywhere else I can download the attack disk handbook?

[Pisces]

Have you tried the link in the previous message? It's straight from the Subsim Download section.

[derstosstrupp]

Fileplanet no longer exists, is there anywhere else I can download the attack disk handbook?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10_ZmyCpqEEudw2muMaO16ds2bPYoLmWO/view?usp=drivesdk

Along with other goodies:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1--lEVpfT_oFVX9ndTnWwBt-1vjW28JbO

[klh]

Thanks for the message. I fixed the original post with the link to subsim downloads.