How do you calculate AOB - Frustrated!! [Archive]

Reece

12-10-07, 11:00 PM

Hi, after many attempts I'm at the point of throwing it in! I must say that manual targeting in SH3 is much easier! By the time I have come up with a AOB and gone to the stadimeter to select & enter it, then select the PK it's way out, the torpedo's miss by around 500 yards!! I'm doing something wrong!:-? I looked up tutorials but most go way over my head, especially this AOB by ratio method, I have tried to watch some of the videos but quality is poor and sound is very low & the whole thing is too fast to get what's going on. On Gizzmoes Video where does he get his AOB settings from, he doesnt go to map to calculate he just guesses in a second, enters it & it is correct, how does he do it!!!:oops: Can someone please assist or point me to a tutorial that is easy to follow, I must say the manual says very little on this topic, Thanks in advance.:yep:
PS. I'm not a mathematician.

LukeFF

12-11-07, 12:28 AM

It's very easy. Your crew will give you the target's course when you use the Estimate Speed button. Adjust the AOB setting until the bow of the ship on the top dial of the TDC points to the number on the outer ring.

Assuming your target's course is 60 degrees:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/LukeFF/SH4/SH4Img2007-12-10_212706_000.jpg

That's it. No funky calculations needed. It's another reason why the American TDC was superior to any other type produced during the war.

Reece

12-11-07, 01:11 AM

Estimate Speed button you mean the stadimeter speed button, my crew says nothing! I'm lost!
Adjust the AOB setting until the bow of the ship on the top dial of the TDC points to the number on the outer ring Do you select the PK first? what stage do I do this?
Assuming your target's course is 60 degrees You set the AOB to 60 degrees, the ships bearing, I thought you had to set the AOB to the ships AOB, I'm lost! (again!):cry:
Sorry for being a bit thick!:88)

What I have been doing:
1) Lock onto target ship , Identify then send to TDC.
2) Get Range with stadimeter, send to TDC.
3) select speed on stadimeter, wait for 10 seconds, press timer, does nothing, wait for 10 seconds press timer again, nothing happens, repeat step 2, this time it works, stuffed if I know!:doh:
3) Try to workout on navmap the AOB, go back to scope & enter in the AOB, send to tdc, set PK on, fire torpedo, according to attack screen the range is always only half way & the torpedoe's miss his stern by 500 yards or so.:damn:
Usually by the time I get the AOB in, the ship has travelled so far that the AOB would have chaged dramatically anyway!!:oops:
This is sooooo frustrating!!:stare::cry:

Powerthighs

12-11-07, 01:54 AM

You're close, do this:

1) Turn PK off
2) Take a range/bearing with the stadimeter and send to TDC.
3) Wait at least ten seconds. In RL it would be more, but the devs said 10 seconds is enough.
4) Take another rang/bearing with the stadimeter and send to TDC.
5) Click the Estimate Speed button. Look at the speed and course estimate your crew gives you.
6) Repeat steps 3-5 several times if possible, and average out the various speed/course reports your crew gives you.
7) Send the estimated speed to the TDC.
8) Adjust the AOB and send to the TDC. Adjust and resend until the bow of the target on the TDC (the top dial) points to the to the estimated course of the target on the outer ring.
9) Take another range/bearing with the stadimeter and send to the TDC.
10) Turn on the PK.

Now the PK should perfectly track the target, not counting of course the error inherent in the crew's estimation and your own range measurements.

Note that this is just one way to get the AOB. In real life, they would estimate visually, and check against the plotting team's calculations if they were available.

Reece

12-11-07, 02:55 AM

Click the Estimate Speed button. Look at the speed and course estimate your crew gives you. OK, lost here already, where is the Estimate Speed button, is it the third one on the bottom of the Attack Data Tool? if so what do I do with the timer button at the top left?
Repeat steps 3-5 several times if possible In the torpedo tutorial mission, I hardly get enough time to do it once!!:88)
average out the various speed/course reports your crew gives you My crew says nothing, do I have to be in a certain mode for this to work?
Adjust and resend until the bow of the target on the TDC (the top dial) points to the estimated course of the target on the outer ring. How do you "estimate course of the target"?:doh:
Take another range/bearing with the stadimeter and send to the TDC. That ship is gone past now!:damn:
I can't understand how you can do all this in a couple of minutes, because that is all the time you get to sink the ship in the torpedo accademy!

seaniam81

12-11-07, 03:33 AM

The torpedo attack training is muffed, you have to be very quick to get this. Your best bet on learining is run the mission editor and make a single mission. Set your target farther out say around 9000 yards or so. It'll give you a better chance to learn the system. The torpedo training mission would be a good excersise on shooting from the hip as it were. Watch the video's in the stickies to get a better idea on how to use manual targeting.

Reece

12-11-07, 04:24 AM

Watch the video's in the stickies to get a better idea on how to use manual targeting.
I have, like Gizzmoes, he enters the AOB without telling how he arrived at the number he puts in, I wish I could just guess a number, enter it & it was correct!!
I thank everyone for responding but no one has said yet how to determine the AOB, or is it just the ships course, is this an error on the game dial, should it read Ships course instead of AOB?:doh: There must be a lot of others out there who have given up & just used auto, I wrote a Manual TDC tutorial for SHIII, available at my site, but for the life of me I can't figure this out!!:damn:

hyperion2206

12-11-07, 07:41 AM

Have a look at this page, it helped me to understand how to get a correct AOB (at least most of the time).

http://mysite.verizon.net/ress1z18/id1.html

ReallyDedPoet

12-11-07, 07:48 AM

Check out this thread from Hitman, in it is a good guide for calculating AOB :up:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=111998

RDP

Reece

12-11-07, 08:17 AM

Thanks, I'll give them a good read, after a nights sleep, a fresh start might get the old cogs moving again.:yep:

Rockin Robbins

12-11-07, 10:01 AM

Please report to WernerSobe's Advanced School for Submarine Attack Tactics for great, non-muffled movies that will teach you exactly what you want to know.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=118923.

While you're at it you can look toward the end of the thread for my tutorial on the Dick O'Kane attack method, which doesn't use the PK at all and uses a fixed AoB since you are attacking at 90º to the target track. Not only will you hit the target with this technique, but you will individually aim each torpedo for a specific spot on the target to distribute damage for efficient sinking. Let us know how you do and we'll fill in the blanks!:up:

If you want to use the PK, turn it on first. Then enter target speed, AoB or course (you can see how to forget all about AoB and just use the target's course in Werner's videos), and lastly bearing/range. Then assuming all your parameters reflect reality, you'll hit your target. The important thing is to enter range/bearing LAST. The PK works like a spreadsheet, new data simply replaces old data.

Powerthighs

12-11-07, 03:21 PM

OK, lost here already, where is the Estimate Speed button, is it the third one on the bottom of the Attack Data Tool? if so what do I do with the timer button at the top left?

On the dial at the upper right hand corner of the screen that lets you input range, AOB, or speed. Select speed. The estimate speed button is at the upper left corner of the dial.

If you've taken at least two range/bearing measurements, pressing this button will cause the crew to give you an estimate in the little text window they talk to you in. Something like:

"WO: Estimated speed, 9 knots, estimated course, 210 degrees"

All this stuff is much easier to do when you detect a target from far away and have lots of time to track it as it approaches. In the game, if you don't start tracking a target until its really close, you will have to do more estimation of values instead of calculation.

Nightmare

12-11-07, 03:26 PM

I have, like Gizzmoes, he enters the AOB without telling how he arrived at the number he puts in, I wish I could just guess a number, enter it & it was correct!!

If it’s the video I think that you are thinking of, he just eyeballed it. AOB was pretty much always estimated from the person on the scope with the MK1 Eyeball, not calculated. Some of the other members have already posted good tutorials however the best advice I can give you is to practice, practice, and practice just eyeballing it. Remember, it’s estimation so it doesn’t need to be exact. If you are within 1000 yards a difference of 5 degrees isn’t going to make a lot of difference.

If you play with map updates on, you can also do it by drawing a line down the length of the target, and then draw a line from the middle of the target to your sub. Now get the angle and that’s your AOB.

Reece

12-11-07, 08:10 PM

@ Powerthighs, that explains why nothing showed until I went back and did the Range again, it was actually only after 2 inputs,:oops: the manual is rather vague on this. To me this is the most important part of commanding a submarine, pity a better explanation wasn't given in the manual.:-? Thanks.
@ Rockin Robbins,
my tutorial on the Dick O'Kane attack method
Ahh a quick 90, that's the one I use the most, will be checking that out!:up: However I won't be going for advanced yet as I can't even master any method yet!:roll:
@ Nightmare, yes I suppose Gizzmoe has had a lot of practice but not a good video for for learning how to calculate the AOB.
If you play with map updates on, you can also do it by drawing a line down the length of the target, and then draw a line from the middle of the target to your sub. Now get the angle and that’s your AOB.
I have been doing this and it seems that I might have been setting AOB correctly and failing the speed, The Torpedo School Mission is rather poor, the ship is presented to you a little too close, I would have prefered the ship starting a little further away!:yep:

If anyone has created a simple mission for torpedo practice would you please upload for me, Thanks.:D

ReallyDedPoet

12-11-07, 10:11 PM

If anyone has created a simple mission for torpedo practice would you please upload for me, Thanks.:D

Saw this post awhile back Reece :yep:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=613693&postcount=2

RDP

Reece

12-11-07, 10:48 PM

Thanks a heap RDP, I'm starting to get the idea, so far still doing theory, will attempt practical soon (I get butterflies when pressing the SH4 Icon).:yep:
I thought I'd stick to Metric but noticed the Attack Data Tool is still imperial.:-?
Question: Can you change range etc and send to TDC with PK on?

Reece

12-12-07, 12:11 AM

Well I still can't get this, I have tried dozens of times with the Torpedo school mission & cant get this to work, the torpedo's allways miss by 200 yards to the rear!:damn::damn:
Please tell me the steps I should be doing to get this mission complete.
What I am doing is:
1) setting speed to 1/3rd, raising scope & locking target.
2) finding correct ship on Recognition manual & clicking the tick box.
3) using stadimeter to get range & sending to TDC.
4) lower scope for 10 seconds, raise scope & lock target, use stadimeter to get range & send to TDC again.
5) select speed on the tool & click on Esimate speed, comes 90% of the time as 5 knots, send to TDC.
6) goto nav map to get idea of AOB, go back to scope & set, usually around 85 degrees to Starboard.
7) lock PK.
Fire & misses by a mile!
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Reecehk/Missedbyamile.jpg
Anyone here that can do this mission please tell me where I'm going wrong please, step by step.:-?

nattydread

12-12-07, 12:23 AM

At 30 deg the visible length of the ship will be half, at 45 deg it will be about 2/3 or 70%. Get a feel for that and you can work the AoB to some more exact...plus if your in close(about 1000yds) just getting the AoB is good enough.

I tend to look for/wait for specific AoBs that Im good at eye-balling and set/check my solutions then.

Reece

12-12-07, 12:41 AM

At 30 deg the visible length of the ship will be half, at 45 deg it will be about 2/3 or 70%.
That may work over time, but not at this stage, the ship changed course as you can see & I did actually change the AOB before setting the PK on. I hit the "z" key but didnt change to silent running, don't know how he saw me, if it was my scope then how the hell can I get the data, this is most frustrating!:cry:

Fincuan

12-12-07, 12:51 AM

Anyone here that can do this mission please tell me where I'm going wrong please.:-?

From the picture I can immediately tell you two things: Your target speed in TDC is zero(notice the yellow SPEED 00 below the target wheel), and target range is way too short. Once you have used the estimate speed function, remember to click the send to tdc button. Similarily, it MUST be done after you have scrolled the speed wheel manually.

A few words on AOB: At distances as short as that you can usually eyeball it well enough, but getting the precise AOB is very easy by using just the TDC, provided that you know the target course. Screw the map for getting the AOB, it's too slow and will be a few degrees off by the time you input it to the TDC(though a few degrees does nothing if the distance is anywhere under 2000 - 3000 meters). As many have already said, even the ingame TDC has the whiz-wheel functionality and a lot more to it. The estimate speed function also gives you the target course, or you can get it via the map. Whichever way you use, the target course is important at this stage, not the AOB. Once you have used the estimate speed function to get a speed AND sent it to the TDC, enable tdc. Then go to the AOB wheel, eyeball an AOB and send it to the TDC. It doesn't need to be even nearly correct at this point, within 45 degrees is easily good enough. Then you look at the target wheel(the upper one) on the TDC and keep turning the AOB input wheel and sending it to the TDC until the ship on the target wheel has the correct course. AOB is what it is, just look at the course. Course is the outer ring of numbers. Once your target wheel is on the correct course, you would take one last range and bearing reading and send it to the tdc, then re-check that the target wheel is on the correct and adjust if necessary. Then you could fire. This is exactly what WernerSobe does in the video, and it gives you the correct AOB every time, provided that your course is correct.

edit: When sending range, remember to click the send button TWICE just in case. In certain conditions it only sends the bearing on the first click and the range on the second, but I can't remember when this occurs. Clicking always twice eliminates that problem.

Reece

12-12-07, 01:55 AM

Thanks I need all the help I can get, after estimating the speed & showed as 5 knots I pressed the red send to TDC icon, so I fail to know what happened!
Similarily, it MUST be done after you have scrolled the speed wheel manually
What do you mean, when the speed is estimated the dial automatically points to 5 knots, I then press send to TDC button, isn't that all that's required, is this wrong?:-?
I don't know how to get the range correct with the stadimeter, I zoom in for a better view and align the waterline of the ship with the top of the mast, left click to release it then click the red send to TDC button, so I fail to know what I'm doing wrong.:doh:
When sending range, remember to click the send button TWICE just in case That may explain that!:dead:
eyeball an AOB How?
The estimate speed function also gives you the target course Where is this displayed?
Once you have used the estimate speed function to get a speed AND sent it to the TDC, enable tdc. Then go to the AOB wheel, eyeball an AOB and send it to the TDC. It doesn't need to be even nearly correct at this point, within 45 degrees is easily good enough. Then you look at the target wheel(the upper one) on the TDC and keep turning the AOB input wheel and sending it to the TDC until the ship on the target wheel has the correct course. AOB is what it is, just look at the course. Course is the outer ring of numbers. Once your target wheel is on the correct course, you would take one last range and bearing reading and send it to the tdc, then re-check that the target wheel is on the correct and adjust if necessary. Then you could fire. This is exactly what WernerSobe does in the video, and it gives you the correct AOB every time, provided that your course is correct.
By the time I do all this the ship would be long gone! I will try to practice the steps in the navigation school.:yep: 2 days I have been trying this & both times I've ended up with a head ache!:cry:

Fincuan

12-12-07, 02:28 AM

What do you mean, when the speed is estimated the dial automatically points to 5 knots, I then press send to TDC button, isn't that all that's required, is this wrong?:-?
That's the correct way. Click that button a few times as well, just to be sure :)

I don't know how to get the range correct with the stadimeter, I zoom in for a better view and align the waterline of the ship with the top of the mast, left click to release it then click the red send to TDC button, so I fail to know what I'm doing wrong.:doh:

That's also correct. One thing you might be doing wrong is the identification. Your target is a Mogami Heavy Cruiser in the torpedo training mission. With map contact updates on you can also easily check your solution from the attack map once the TDC is on. See the white cross+line about halfway between you and the target in your screenshot? That's where your TDC thinks the target is, and it should of course be on or near your target for the torpedoes to hit.

eyeball an AOB
Look at the ship and plug in your best estimate of the AOB via the AOB input wheel. For example if the bow of your target is pointing right in your periscope, you input 90 degrees starboard(right) as the AOB. If the bow is pointing left, then you input 90 port(left). I assure you, you'll do a lot better estimating it yourself than sticking to these guidelines. A rough estimate is good enough at this point, since we'll be updating it shortly anyway.

The estimate speed function also gives you the target course Where is this displayed?
It's shown in the message bar along with the speed.

By the time I do all this the ship would be long gone! I will try to practice the steps in the navigation school.:yep: 2 days I have been trying this & both times I've ended up with a head ache!:cry: It doesn't take more than a few seconds once you get the idea, which you can see in the WernerSobe video. As someone already said, the torpedo training mission is not the best place for practice, since there's very little time to act. The target starts so near you, that you really need to know your stuff to hit it before it's way past. I'm currently at work, but once I get home I can do you a guide with screenshots that walks you through the torpedo training mission.

Reece

12-12-07, 03:31 AM

Hi Fincuan, I have actually been setting the correct ship ID, one of my biggest problems is that my nerves go to pieces trying to rush everything, I will have to relax more, I do wonder though how I can be this bad (thick)!
It doesn't take more than a few seconds once you get the idea That would be something!! I should probably give this mission a miss but I hate being beaten! I'm stubborn, I see that everyone else can do it so why not me!:lol:
once I get home I can do you a guide with screenshots that walks you through the torpedo training mission. Thank you, that would be great,:yep: sorry to put you out though!!:oops:

Fincuan

12-12-07, 04:41 AM

It doesn't take more than a few seconds once you get the idea That would be something!! I should probably give this mission a miss but I hate being beaten! I'm stubborn, I see that everyone else can do it so why not me!:lol:

Just to clarify this a bit: Inputting the AOB once you know the course only takes a few seconds, but it takes longer to gather the data required to find out the course :)

Fincuan

12-12-07, 10:54 AM

Ok, here we go as promised. I'm using TMaru 1.7.2, RSRDC and a few other mods, so things might look a bit different, but they still function all the same. Because of TMaru I had to remove the damn plane from the mission, since it would start strafing me and altert the Mogami :lol:

Identify the target. In the Sub School torpedo training mission we have a nice, fat Mogami Heavy Cruiser in the sights.

http://staufa.bounceme.net/files/tutorial/image01.jpg

First observation. Lock the ship, get the range with the stadimeter and click send to tdc ONCE(Confirmed, once is enough). Lower the scope after clicking "send to tdc".

Wait... I waited a bit over a minute. The more you wait the more precise your readings will be, but then again you don't have much time in this mission. Now is a good time to set up the torpedoes and open the tube doors.

http://staufa.bounceme.net/files/tutorial/image02.jpg

Second observation. Again remember to click "Send to tdc" only once. Lower the scope.

Go to the speed dial and hit the "Estimate speed and course" button

http://staufa.bounceme.net/files/tutorial/image03.jpg

Send the speed(9 knots in this case) to the tdc by clicking the "Send to tdc" button once, and note the course from the message box(101 degrees)

http://staufa.bounceme.net/files/tutorial/image04.jpg

Go to the AOB input dial and raise the scope. Turn the wheel to what you estimate as the AOB and click the send "Send AOB to TDC" button. As you can see, I estimated the AOB to be about 78 degrees starboard. Lower the scope.

http://staufa.bounceme.net/files/tutorial/image05.jpg

Look at the target wheel(upper left corner). That wheel shows the target as seen from our sub(the bottom wheel), and our sub is ALWAYS at the bottom. By looking at where the bow of the target(zero on the inner wheel) points on the outer wheel, we can now see what the TDC thinks as the course of the target. In this case the TDC has calculated that an AOB of 78 degrees starboard would mean that the target's course is about 82 degrees. From our two observations we, however, know that the course is really 101 degrees. Time to make some adjustments.

Still looking at the target wheel, we can see that a course of 101 degrees would require the bow of the miniature ship to point more towards our sub, meaning the AOB should be smaller than the 78 degrees I previously estimated. To achieve this, I roll the AOB wheel until the marker at the bottom shows something smaller, 50 degrees in this case, and click send to tdc.

http://staufa.bounceme.net/files/tutorial/image06.jpg

After our re-estimated AOB the target wheel now shows the course as 110 degrees, which means that we went too low with the estimate of 50 degrees. We now need to roll the AOB wheel back a few degrees, and send it to the tdc again.

http://staufa.bounceme.net/files/tutorial/image07.jpg

There we go! The target wheel now shows a course of 101 degrees, which is what we wanted all along. We can now enable the tdc. Note that the screenshot is actually taken after the next step.

Make one more observation, and again adjust the AOB until the target wheel points to 101 degrees. If you have map contact updates on and the periscope is up, you can easily check the quality of the solution from the attack map. As you can see, the thicker end of the small black line, which is where the TDC thinks that the target is, is almost on top of our target. When we observe it for a few seconds, we can see that it also stays there. This looks like a decent solution, so I decide to fire. I make one final observation to get the latest range and bearing, and again adjust the AOB as we have done above a few times already. Then it's time for... ROHR EINS, LOS! ROHR ZWEI, LOS! ROHR DREI, LOS! ROHR VIER, LOS!

http://staufa.bounceme.net/files/tutorial/image08.jpg

KABOOM! Since these are early-war american torpedoes, the result was what we expected: two duds and one with a gyro problem sending it off to the right.

http://staufa.bounceme.net/files/tutorial/image09.jpg

A final check of the attack map after the torpedoes have hit. As you can see, the TDC's marker is still almost on top of the target, which means that our solution was spot on.

A few things to remember:

Keep the scope up as briefly as possible
Click "Send to TDC" after changing anything
Remember to enable the TDC after you have all the data.
Adjust the AOB after each observation
Make one final observation right before firing

Reece

12-12-07, 07:32 PM

Have printed this out, will study first, then chew my nails!:lol:
Will report back with good news soon I hope!:yep:
Many thanks again.:up::up:

Reece

12-12-07, 10:10 PM

One last queery before I try my luck!:yep:
In Step 12:
I make one final observation to get the latest range and bearing, and again adjust the AOB as we have done above a few times already.
Do I have to turn the TDC off first?:)

LukeFF

12-12-07, 10:18 PM

ReallyDedPoet

12-12-07, 10:20 PM

Nice post\explanation Fincuan :yep::up:

RDP

Reece

12-12-07, 10:45 PM

Re-read Step 11. Thats right it was previously off whilst doing Range, then turned on, now the range is to be done again, do I have to turn TDC off do range again (use stadimeter & send to TDC) then turn it back on.:-?

Fincuan

12-12-07, 11:05 PM

No, keep it on until the target is down. It's just off during the initial data gathering, because keeping it on might screw the "Estimate course and speed" function. As soon as you have all the basic data, you switch it on and keep it on. I don't even turn it off when switching targets in a convoy, since there's really no need to. Plug in the new data and voila, you have a completely new solution.

Waiting to hear your results :up:

Reece

12-12-07, 11:25 PM

Ahh I see the light!:yep: It's only for the speed estimation that it is switched off! and during a convoy they are all doing the same speed, just have to switch targets get new ship ID, range & set AOB till TDC shows correct target course, would be near the same till they all started to zig zag!:) Well no excuses to avoid putting it off!:doh::D

Fincuan

12-12-07, 11:38 PM

There you go! Spot on about the convoy, that's exactly why the TDC can remain on. You can even ID the ships beforehand, and the game will remember the ID as long as the ship stays withing certain range from you(don't know what that is, but it never seems to be a problem in a convoy situation). It makes switching targets a lot faster when you don't have to flip through the recognition manual in the middle of an attack :)

Reece

12-13-07, 01:00 AM

Success!!:D This rusty old fart finally gets it!:lol:
One problem I'm having though is speed, each time I have done the Estimate Speed my dial allways shows this ship (Mogami Heavy Cruiser) to be doing 5 to 6 knots.
in the first attempt the speed read 6 knots & the torpedo's just hit the rear end! In the second attempt the speed read 5 knots, I just set it to 9 knots as yours read & this time hit amidships, I tried a third time & the reading was 6 knots again, something is amiss but I don't know what.
This is what I do (I'm sure I got it right):
1) set speed for 1/3rd and hit Z key.
2) go to scope & raise, identify ship, click tick box.
3) lock on, use stadimeter and send to TDC.
4) lower scope, wait for about 1 minute during this time open 4 tubes.
5) raise scope, lock on, use stadimeter, send to TDC, lower scope.
6) go to speed dial & click on "Estimate Speed".
This allways comes to around 6 knots, and I say nuts!:lol:
Any idea what I might be doing wrong, can a setting or mod effect this?
Has the Estimate Speed button changed from version 1.0, when I check the SH4 manual page 38 at the top it reads quite different!
Thanks for all your help Fincuan.:yep:

Powerthighs

12-13-07, 01:51 AM

When using the stadimeter, are you placing the waterline of the image of the ship at the top of its highest mast?

Do you have the position keeper off while making your two observations? (it looks like from your previous comments the answer is yes)

Are you at battlestations? (I don't think this would cause that much error, but your crew is more accurate in calcuations while at battlestations)

You can also click the Estimate Speed button several times to get different estimates from the crew. You might try that and see if all the speeds are around 6 knots.

Anyway, whatever it is it's something minor. You definitely have the basic idea down.

Powerthighs

12-13-07, 01:52 AM

Oh, one more thing. The Estimate Speed button didn't even work until patch 1.3, so ignore the manual. The way you are doing it is correct except for some small issue.

THE_MASK

12-13-07, 01:57 AM

I think there is something wrong with the school . It works in campaign though .

Reece

12-13-07, 02:34 AM

@ Powerthighs:
When using the stadimeter, are you placing the waterline of the image of the ship at the top of its highest mast? Yes just as in Fincuan's tutorial shows, ships waterline overlay image on the top mast of the correctly identified ship.:yep:
Do you have the position keeper off while making your two observations? Definitely, the red light is not on, I only set it on after the speed is calculated.
Are you at battlestations? Probably not, only set for silent running, I'm too used to SH3, there this is not an option, would this make a difference?:oops: I'll give it a try, can someone tell me the hot key please - too lazy to look it up!;)
Oh, one more thing. The Estimate Speed button didn't even work until patch 1.3, so ignore the manual. The way you are doing it is correct except for some small issue. Thanks, I'll ignore it.:yep:
@ Sober:
I think there is something wrong with the school . It works in campaign though . I'd like to think that but Fincuan's tutorial even shows the correct speed, maybe I should calculate it a couple of times & get the overall before turning the TDC on.:yep:

Gee I even sound like I know what I'm talking about!!:smug: ..... :88)

Fincuan

12-13-07, 05:40 AM

Nice to hear it worked! One more member of the manual TDC club then :)

I have no idea what's wrong with your speed estimates, because judging from what you wrote you are doing everything correctly. Do you have the same problem in other single missions and/or the campaign too? Is the course still correct, even though the speed is not?

Rockin Robbins

12-13-07, 06:55 AM

If for some reason one of the ranges is wrong, or if both ranges are wrong the estimate speed button will be wrong. Because of that I always estimate speed from my plot and forget all about that. In practice the most accurate way to estimate speed is from your plot using the 3 minute rule, 6 minute rule or the WernerSobe method of timing how long the ship takes to travel its own length. Werner's method depends on accurate identification of the ship, though, so it also is subject to error.

Like most things American, the conventional manual targeting method uses multiple steps, each of which is capable of introducing fatal error into the process, each of which must be perfectly executed in order for the torpedo to impact the target. I find stadimeter errors particularly vexing and don't even use the blasted thing outside of 2500 yards. The basic problem with standard US manual targeting procedure is that it is not sufficiently error tolerant. In combat errors are a given.

That is why my default approach technique is the Dick O'Kane procedure, a modfiication of the Fast 90 of U-Boat fame, but adapted for American TDC without the PK. The reason the Germans had a higher hit percentage of torpedoes shot is that they understood that in combat the most important characteristic of a successful strategy is error tolerance.

My tutorial on the Dick O'Kane technique is fraught with error, as arronblood correctly roasted me about later. But in spite of my ham-handedness both torpedoes impacted the target within 20 feet of their aiming point.

In order to be successful you must first know how much error you can tolerate, compare that to the amount of error you have (in your best judgement) and shoot or don't shoot (or shoot a wider spread if you're not getting another chance), For conventional targeting, this means extensive use of the attack screen to ensure that your solution is somewhere reasonable compared to the actual target position, heading and speed.

With conventional US targeting you must accurately determine target ID, range (stadimeter), speed and AoB. With Dick O'Kane you need only target course and speed. That errors increase catastropically with the number of parameters needed to obtain a solution. Is it any wonder US subs had so many more misses by a 3/1 ratio?

Dick O'Kane had it right. The system was designed to guarantee unacceptable error. And he was the acknowleged master of conventional targeting technique.

GOZO

12-13-07, 07:24 AM

Amen! :)

This is one of the best threads so far covering the subject.

There are few things more rewarding than see the eels detonate were you xpect them to after a manual calc.:yep:

Regards

/OB

Reece

12-13-07, 07:48 AM

You have been a great help Fincuan, if not for you I may have given up!:yep:
Hi Rockin Robbins, I have downloaded your quick 90 method & will give that a go later, in SH3 that was my main method, I would set everything up at 40 degrees (Port or Starboard), when the ship came into my scope at that bearing I would press the auto button & it would then follow the ship with the correct gyro angles, I would then launch a torpedo at around 20 degrees before & if it was a dud or not enough to sink it I could the launch another while the gyro angle was still ok!:yep:
I always use the 3.10 minute rule & this works out well with metric, but not so easy with imperial, would have to multiply the answer (in yards) by 0.9144 to get meters, then just shift decimal place to get speed in knots. This Torpedo school mission you don't have anywhere near enough time to do this!:doh: I will use this in the campaigns though unless the ship is too close, sometimes happens with TC.
Well that's about it, a little more practice & I can start my first campaign.:up:
Many thanks to all for your patience teaching this old dog new tricks, especially Fincuan.:D
Cheers.

Fincuan

12-13-07, 08:08 AM

If for some reason one of the ranges is wrong, or if both ranges are wrong the estimate speed button will be wrong. Because of that I always estimate speed from my plot and forget all about that.

That's very much true, and is also the primary reason why I never use the function in campaign. One small mistake and bam, your solution is screwed. The Dick O'Kane method is a nice tool to have in the toolbox, but for me it's not the primary one. Now that my current career is well into 1944, I mostly find myself in night surface attacks against enemy convoys, something where the O'Kane method just doesn't suit well. If you are to engage three merchants travelling in a line 800 meters apart from each other while keeping your bow pointed at the closest escort, you pretty much have to use the TDC. Developing the solution over time and gathering the basic data with the radar, while using the stadimeter only as a confirmation, guarantees that by the time the target is within torpedo range, the solution is nearly flawless.

If it's not a multiple target situation, or it's just two targets very close to each other, then the Dick O'Kane method is indeed much easier and more straightforward. A few other situations where I find myself using it are sonar-only attacks against escorted targets, when you can't ping to get the range, and radar-guided surface attacks in extremely bad visibility(<500 meters). Especially in the latter situation the TDC is almost useless, because you can plot everything on the map but there's no easy and precise way to feed the data into the TDC. With the O'Kane method you don't obviously have to input anything but the speed.

Reece

12-13-07, 08:12 AM

I just found what I was doing wrong, stupid me, I was bringing down the overlay ship and placing it's waterline on the top of the mast but forgot that I have to place the waterline of the actual ship on the scopes line!:88) How did I make that fundamental blunder I don't know, even in SH3 I had to do that, although with the 3 minute rule I was also calculating range differently as well.:damn: Can't get over this, what a goose!!:88) Oh well at least I now know!:yep:

Fincuan

12-13-07, 08:20 AM

No, you don't have to place the waterline of the actual ship on the scope's line :) In SH3 you had to, but with the stadimeter in SH4 it's not necessary. Note that I don't even have a scope line to place it on.

Reece

12-13-07, 08:37 AM

So much for that theory!:roll: Oh well practice makes perfect ... Hopefully!:yep:

Rockin Robbins

12-13-07, 01:53 PM

Hi Rockin Robbins...I always use the 3.10 minute rule & this works out well with metric, but not so easy with imperial, would have to multiply the answer (in yards) by 0.9144 to get meters, then just shift decimal place to get speed in knots. Fincuan.:D
Cheers.
Bit of a wide opening here for a bit of shameless promotion of the SUPERIOR imperial measurements. Unlike the kilometer, which means absolutely nothing aside from the famous shrinking official meter bar, the nautical mile actually MEANS SOMETHING IMPORTANT! I know it's a shock. You may sit if you need to.:rotfl:

A nautical mile is one minute of arc, 1/60 of a degree in latitude, or in longitude at the equator. But let's get to your .9144 stuff. No such nonsense is necessary and you can do everything in your head even quicker than a calculator. Ready?

A knot is the speed of one nautical mile per hour or sixty minutes (time). If you measure the nautical miles traveled in six minutes (1/10 of an hour) and slide the decimal (comma or point, choose the choice of your choice) one place right, you have the speed in knots. The distance in three minutes (1/20 of an hour) times 20 equals your speed in knots. You can surely do that quicker than the .9144 gymnastics with 3:10.

BUT patch 1.4 has thrown us a bit of a curve. Under 5 miles, our measurement tools give us yards, not nautical miles. What to do? Since the nautical mile is only 24 feet greater than 2000 yards, and some of us can spit that far, we can use 2000 yards as the equivalent of 1 nautical mile. So if you have traveled 1500 yards over 3 minutes, that's 1500/2000 of a mile or .75 miles. Just divide the 15 by 2, slide your decimal indicator of choice one place left and that's how far you've gone in nautical miles. But that's not what you're after! You want knots. The answer is already there. Just knock off two zeros and read your speed as 15 knots. Let's recap:

NEW 3 MINUTE RULE FOR PATCH 1.4
Take the number of yards traveled in three minutes, slide the decimal whatsit left two places and read your speed. Man that was tough! Break out the torpedo juice!

Munchausen

12-13-07, 02:53 PM

we can use 2000 yards as the equivalent of 1 nautical mile

Yes. Standard "rule of thumb" for both naval and air navigation.

So if you have traveled 1500 yards over 3 minutes, that's 1500/2000 of a mile or .75 miles. Just divide the 15 by 2, slide your decimal indicator of choice one place left and that's how far you've gone in nautical miles. But that's not what you're after! You want knots. The answer is already there. Just knock off two zeros and read your speed as 15 knots.

:hmm: In other words, using Robbins' "6 minutes = 1/10th of an hour":

1500 yds (for 3 minutes) x 2 = 3000 yds (for 6 minutes).
Equals 1.5 nm for 6 minutes.
Ergo, 1.5 nm (for 6 minutes) x 10 = 15 nm (for 60 minutes).

Take the number of yards traveled in three minutes, slide the decimal whatsit left two places and read your speed.

It doesn't get any easier than that. Thanks. Another rule of thumb.:up:

RickC Sniper

12-13-07, 03:45 PM

For me, after patch 1.4 that Mogami is always zig-zagging. Perhaps that is what caused you to get his speed wrong?

It takes him longer to travel from point A to point B than if he was going strait.

Rockin Robbins

12-13-07, 06:02 PM

For me, after patch 1.4 that Mogami is always zig-zagging. Perhaps that is what caused you to get his speed wrong?

It takes him longer to travel from point A to point B than if he was going strait.

For patch 1.4 they fed him a couple pints of sake!:arrgh!:

Reece

12-13-07, 06:55 PM

Take the number of yards traveled in three minutes, slide the decimal whatsit left two places and read your speed. Man that was tough! Break out the torpedo juice!
Thanks for that guys, that certainly make things easy, your rockin Robbins!:up:
That really is the same as metric:
Take the number of meters traveled in three minutes 10 seconds, slide the decimal whats it left two places and read your speed.
I had to say that!:lol:

DrBeast

12-14-07, 08:38 AM

Been following this thread, and with the help of Fincuan's picture tutorial and WernerSobe's excellent videos in another thread, I took my first stab at Manual Targeting in a Single Mission I quickly threw together. Getting the range with the Stadimeter was a freaking pain in the hind-parts, but with lots of swapping between Attack Map and Periscope View and manual range correction, I managed to sink two big, fat merchants! I was hunting a third one when my 'puter gave me a subtle message that "It's 3:30am already, you lout, and you'll have to get up at 9:00!" and booted me to Windoze! :p I think I'll need to download the Manual Targeting Correction Fix I spotted in the Mods section, and I also think my next Career will be with Manual Targeting...21 Patrols completed and a Tonnage Sunk in the six-digit figures is a bit of an overkill, methinks. Cheers for all the helpful info I've gathered, skippers! :up:

Anvart

12-15-07, 08:27 AM

...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/LukeFF/SH4/SH4Img2007-12-10_212706_000.jpg
...
Hi, LukeFF.
I see tens (number 10) on your TBT display ... :o
It's inheritance of the past (SH3) ...
Disable corresponding lines in menu_1024_768.ini ...

u.Prestige

12-15-07, 10:23 AM

Begin to play SH4 days ago....
No elec-torpedo in Dec 1941:damn:
Maybe we need U-Jagd tools in SH4:p
It's quite annoying to get a target's speed without target's length in recognition manual:damn:

ReallyDedPoet

12-15-07, 10:48 AM

I took my first stab at Manual Targeting

Good stuff, it is a totally different game with MT :yep:

RDP

LukeFF

12-16-07, 12:07 AM

Hi, LukeFF.
I see tens (number 10) on your TBT display ... :o
It's inheritance of the past (SH3) ...
Disable corresponding lines in menu_1024_768.ini ...

Which lines are those?

Maltro

12-16-07, 12:56 PM

Very interesting thread.
In your post you often trust to the button: "estimate speed and course", but this mean is it an estimation or an exact data ?

I answer you this question because I use this tool to determinate AOB: http://mysite.verizon.net/ress1z18/id4.html . (somebody use it?) I had to print the wheels but it is rather fun to use. But I need to know the exact target course to use it and this is my problem. I usually use the "drawing method" to find it (I draw 2 points along the target course and draw a line. Then I use compass to find the target course where the line is crossing the compass wheel).

But I often find some differences beetween this method and the estimate course the button give me.

What are you thinking about that?

Anvart

12-16-07, 02:56 PM

Hi, LukeFF.
I see tens (number 10) on your TBT display ... :o
It's inheritance of the past (SH3) ...
Disable corresponding lines in menu_1024_768.ini ...

Which lines are those?
Hi, Luke ... look:
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[G28 I122]
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Zone= 136 405 46 19 0 1 0x28060000 0.0627119 -0.464407 0x28060009 0 0 0 0
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;[G28 I123]
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