Sinking lifeboats?

[Renesisfury]

Should you do it? Any negatives? I thought it would be a good excuse to keep myself sharp on AA.

[manucapo]

i did it once to try if it was possible
and then i felt kinda bad about it (i know its just a game) but shooting those guys in the lifeboat made me fell mean
i dont think there are any negatives
atleast not that i have observed

[tomoose]

....on whether you're trying to play realistically or not. U.S. and the other allies abided by the Geneva Convention (as did Germany and I believe Japan) ergo shooting of non-combatants (which includes survivors in a lifeboat) was/is considered a criminal act (aka: murder).

[FIREWALL]

If your interested in the game aspects and not the moral issues,
useing deckgun on lifeboats you will get 1 ton and no negitive renoun.

Why it was put in the game this way is anyone's guess.

[Gargantou]

....on whether you're trying to play realistically or not. U.S. and the other allies abided by the Geneva Convention (as did Germany and I believe Japan) ergo shooting of non-combatants (which includes survivors in a lifeboat) was/is considered a criminal act (aka: murder).Yet a US submarine captain killed a ****load of lifeboats from a japanese ship he snuk, afterwards it turned out many of the people they killed were INDIAN P.O.W.s being transported by the Japanese, afaik the Captain NEVER ever faced charges for warcrimes etc for this occurence.

For sources, I can't remember, it was a post on this forum back when SH4 first came out..

Edit: After some searching I found it, http://www.pacificwrecks.com/ships/subs/SS-238.html

I quote.

The second target headed for her was Fukuei Maru #2. Wahoo fired two bow tubes "down the throat". The second torpedo hit, but Fukuei Maru #2 kept coming and forced the submarine forcing it a hard left turn full speed to avoid being rammed. Returning to periscope depth, Wahoo observed the first target had sunk, the second target was still moving, evidently with steering trouble; and the transport, Buyo Maru, was stopped but still afloat. Wahoo headed for the transport and fired a bow tube; the torpedo passed directly under the middle of the ship but failed to explode. She then fired another torpedo which headed right for the stack and blew her apart her midships. The submarine then headed for the crippled second target which had joined with a tanker. Wahoo let these two ships escape, while she surfaced to charge her batteries and destroy the estimated twenty lifeboats now in the water.

For your informatin, the Buyo Maru was transporting Indian P.O.W.s, and twice as many Indian P.O.Ws was killed as Japanese.

So, you still gonna claim that the US submarines abided by the Geneva Convention? What about the bombings of German cities during WW2? There were lots of civilian casualties there too, my end point is that in a worldwar, I doubt anyone truly gives a **** about the Geneva Convention, sad as it is.

[rrmelend]

They are good to practice using your AA gun on I guess but I wouldn't do it.

[biosthetique]

Wow!...And I thought the war was over!....Beats me!

[Renesisfury]

If your interested in the game aspects and not the moral issues,
useing deckgun on lifeboats you will get 1 ton and no negitive renoun.
Why it was put in the game this way is anyone's guess.
Deck gun is too tough, AA is much better, esp. with the dual 20mm

[jazman]

....on whether you're trying to play realistically or not. U.S. and the other allies abided by the Geneva Convention (as did Germany and I believe Japan) ergo shooting of non-combatants (which includes survivors in a lifeboat) was/is considered a criminal act (aka: murder).Yet a US submarine captain killed a ****load of lifeboats from a japanese ship he snuk, afterwards it turned out many of the people they killed were INDIAN P.O.W.s being transported by the Japanese, afaik the Captain NEVER ever faced charges for warcrimes etc for this occurence.


And to top it off, he's still on patrol in the sub service to this date! How does the Navy let him get away with this??

[Ducimus]

Personnaly, i dont waste my time on them one way or the other. Their just flotsam, although, i have often wondered if they count as AI units that can advertise your presence like other AI units.

[odjig292]

There is a fair amount of evidence that the reason why Richard O'Kane didn't get the Medal of Honor is because he machine-gunned the lifeboats.

[Doolittle81]

...
And to top it off, he's still on patrol in the sub service to this date! How does the Navy let him get away with this??

I'm not sure what this means? He's "on patrol"???

[jazman]

...
And to top it off, he's still on patrol in the sub service to this date! How does the Navy let him get away with this??

I'm not sure what this means? He's "on patrol"???

On Eternal Patrol.

[Gargantou]

There is a fair amount of evidence that the reason why Richard O'Kane didn't get the Medal of Honor is because he machine-gunned the lifeboats.So? That's hardly equal to being imprisoned for warcrimes, is it?

But then again, that's the way its almost always been, the country which wins a war, gets away with commiting all sorts of warcrimes.:)

And jazman, I'm well aware he died on patrol, but this was SEVERAL patrols after he machinegunned all those Japanese men and INDIAN PRISONERS OF GODDAMNED WAR.

[jazman]

There is a fair amount of evidence that the reason why Richard O'Kane didn't get the Medal of Honor is because he machine-gunned the lifeboats.
You mean Dudley Morton. O'Kane got a MoH, and it's interesting that he was Exec on the Wahoo when they shot up the boats. And it was O'Kane who was working to have a MoH awarded to Morton.

[odjig292]

As jazman says " You mean Dudley Morton. O'Kane got a MoH." Quite right. I mixed the names. Morton was the one who gave the orders. I never thought that was fair, but war is hell, as they say. There may have been other reasons, but they were never stated.

[Gunner]

I think the reason Morton never took any flak over the gunning of the lifeboats was there was a lot of troops in those lifeboats as well as one of the ships he sunk was a large transport, The killing of the POW was unfortunate, however his orders were specific to destroy all sea targets.He did receive a Navy cross for that patrol and Wahoo got a Presidentential unit citation. Since Wahoo was stationed at Brisbane at the time of this incident Morton fell under Fife's command and Fife' pholosphy was "shoot them all "from what I've read.:arrgh!:

[Gargantou]

It was still a violation of the Geneva Convention which afaik the US claimed to 'abide' to, and he was not charged with warcrimes after the patrol, even though destroying (populated) lifeboats is clearly against the geneva convention.

[Factor]

it would be cool to be able to take POW's in game.

[pythos]

It is actually quite astounding about this little bit of history. people would think that Germany would be the ones to machine gun helpless lifeboat or swimming bound people, who's ship they just sunk. Then after some reading and research I found that German U-boat commanders often surfaced before sinking an unarmed merchant, signalled for the crew to get off, then blew the ship out of the water. When sinking armed merchants they would do their duty, then surface and give aid to those in the water, and give directions to the lifeboats to land. This was in no way done by every commander, but enough commanders did this to take notice. Then after rescuing as many people from a ship (the lacidonia, I believe), a u-boat was spotted on the surface with decks loaded with people, a white flag, and several life boats in tow. What did the passing liberators do? Attacked and sunk the U-boat. After this Donetz put out an order stating that U-boats were not to give aid to survivors, to do so risked attack by allied air powers. This order at times was still not followed, and other boats were attacked while giving aid. Donetz's reaction to these commanders if they survived. A stern talking to, for lack of a better term.

One German commander did start shooting survivors, he was soon stripped of his command, and later stripped of his life, an order put out by Donetz.

Japanese took absolutely no reservations in gunning down survivors, if they didn't do that they imprisoned survivors and tortured them. This did not shock me when I understood the brain washing many of the Japanese went through, and the idea of the samuria code where imprisonment was worse than death, and far more dishonorable.

But what did shock me was hearing that the commander of an American fleet boat, not only shot survivors in the water, but also used the boat to ram lifeboats into kindling. I am not sure if this was O'cane, or Morton, but it was one of those two. Conscidering this was war their actions were part of the ugliness. But in this case our submarine force was no better than the enemy in the pacific sub's, and far worse than those skulking wolves in the atlantic. At least these were the only recorded incidences like this on our side.

[pythos]

Oh, and just to see how the graphics were done, I sunk an unmanned life boat with the deck gun. I have not gunned down manned lifeboats. I know it is a game, but hell I have a hard time gunning down innocent people in Grand theft auto.

[tomoose]

You'll have to clarify the word "afaik", not familiar with that term and you've used it twice.

I guess I should have qualified my statement with "supposed to abide with...."
Depends on your upbringing and discipline I guess. However, just cuz some clown gets away with it doesn't mean it's OK.

There'd have been no POWs at all (Japanese treatment notwithstanding) if someone hadn't stuck to the rules such as they were at the time.

[fireship4]

AFAIK stands for "as far as I know".

[jdkbph]

So? That's hardly equal to being imprisoned for warcrimes, is it?

But then again, that's the way its almost always been, the country which wins a war, gets away with commiting all sorts of warcrimes.:)

And jazman, I'm well aware he died on patrol, but this was SEVERAL patrols after he machinegunned all those Japanese men and INDIAN PRISONERS OF GODDAMNED WAR.

War is ugly... always. Nothing clean or honorable about it. And "The Good War" was no exception. Atrocities and acts which would otherwise be considered immoral were committed on all sides.

And as in all such circumstances, the victors dictated the "history".

Why are you surprised?

JD

[pugwash1]

It is sad that we should be having this conversation at this time of the year. We all accept that war is not a nice thing, however, unless you have been in one you can not understand the full gambit of emotion, many people have tried to figure out the mind set of those in combat and have many theories, and almost all nations have the "not us" syndrome, some horrible cases of military atrocities were perpetrated by the British and Americans, including the following: abuse and starving of americans onboard the prison ship HMS Jersey on the Hudson river during the war of indipendence, Anderson prison and the other civilwar attrocities done to prisioners on both sides of the American civil war, the invention of concentration camps By the British during the Boar war (held women and children) The massacre of the british families by the Indians during the uprising and the massacre of the indians in reprisal......and on and on and on...
Lets not forget ourselves who are simulating the killing of hundreds in our "games" ........Now this is the IMPORTANT BIT, lets not forget that this is a GAME, get out there and tax your brains, hone your skills and get into the world we have built in our computers... and lets give thanks that we do ... sometimes feel a little guilt.. that is what makes us human, shame the Japs didnot have that trait, and thank god we did not live in those times where hate back resulted in a guilt free massacre of people in the life boats..... Thanks for a most thought evoking thread.

[Ducimus]

The "morton debate" is one that will never have an end. My stance, has always been that this theater, the pacific theater, was an ugly one. Even uglier then the atlantic when you look at the actions committed by the enemy at the time. In the pacific, hatred for the enemy was very genuine. If you do some reading, you'll find all sorts of stories about Japanese wartime atrocities. Theres alot more to be read about then just the Batan death march. Personnaly, i think stories got around, and i tink its a small wonder why the hatred level in the pacific was at the level that i think it was at. which makes a lifeboat shooting incident, not much of a surpise. Not condoned, but no big surpise either.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Nanjing_ditch.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Japanese_soldiers_shooting_Sikh_prisoners.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1a/LeonardGSiffleet.jpg

[kylesplanet]

I know some US subs took POW's but there was not alot of room to stow them, especially in any number. Out of curiosity, would you rather be left in the middle of the ocean to die a slow agonizing death, or get it over with? I don't mean to be provocative, just wondering others thoughts. Another question: If those guys are left and they happen to be rescued, return to service and contribute to the death of an American, have I done my job or did I aid in the death of a brother? Tough choices either way.

[Gunner]

A Picture is worth a thousand words Ducimus. My humble opinion, Morton believed he sunk a troop transport, Troops that would have been used to kill U.S. GI and acted accordingly.

[kylesplanet]

Those pics say alot Ducimus.

[jazman]

And jazman, I'm well aware he died on patrol, but this was SEVERAL patrols after he machinegunned all those Japanese men and INDIAN PRISONERS OF GODDAMNED WAR.
Well, it sure is easy to judge now, and be all sanctimonious about it. Where were you when the Nuremburg trials needed your righteous wrath?

[Ducimus]

Just as an aside, what got me looking more closely at japanese warcrimes was when i was doing research for the bungo pete/akikaze mod in TM.

I ran accross this page:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_pacific.html

Primarly because an incident took place called "THE 'AKIKAZE' EXECUTIONS". Naturally it peaked my curiosity. Not wanting to take a obscure user page at face value, i started googleing some of the incidents described on that page, and they all seem to have really occured.

[Doolittle81]

Thanks for posting that link, Ducimus. I'd known and read of most of those atrocities, but not all. To be honest, I get sick of hearing the "both sides did the same" argument, specifically when it comes to the Pacific War and the Japanese offenses.

[jazman]

Anyone have a number of how many were gunned down by Wahoo?

[Gargantou]

Just to clarify for you guys, I'm not trying to paint out the USA as the bad guys, the Germans and the Japanese both did far worse things during the war, however, this was alls tarted by some guy who said that historically the US never ever fired at lifeboats, which is incorrect.

I agree with you, war is ugly, that's why it should be made to be as quick as possible to avoid long sufferings of the people.

[hyperion2206]

IThen after rescuing as many people from a ship (the lacidonia, I believe), a u-boat was spotted on the surface with decks loaded with people, a white flag, and several life boats in tow. What did the passing liberators do? Attacked and sunk the U-boat.

This is almost correct: The U-Boat was U-156 under command of Korverttenkapitän Hartenstein. U-156 was bombed by a Liberator but survived the attack.

Here's a link with a short summary of the event:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Laconia_%281921%29

[Gargantou]

And jazman, I'm well aware he died on patrol, but this was SEVERAL patrols after he machinegunned all those Japanese men and INDIAN PRISONERS OF GODDAMNED WAR.
Well, it sure is easy to judge now, and be all sanctimonious about it. Where were you when the Nuremburg trials needed your righteous wrath?Yes, it is easy, and it IS important to judge, because we must NEVER start forgetting all the warcrimes that are commited, we must continuously work to prevent them.

If we just ignore previous mistakes and 'forget' them, then it will just be an infinite circle where we repeat them over and over again.

[tomoose]

That's kinda my point Gargantou, the so-called rules (Conventions) were created to try and avoid war crimes but they're only as good as those that choose to follow them, having said that, ref Duci's first photo, fast fwd twenty or so years and change the japanese soldier standing there to Lt Calley. The more we change the more we stay the same.

Anyway, 'nuff said, I'm heading back out on patrol.:smug:

[Snuffy]

Always good to remember here that ... HEY! it's a game. You can play it any way you want.

And as we all know things were done by people on all sides. So live with it. It's past. It's History. Taken under the circumstances of the time period the "attrocities" were committed, I'm sure the "offenders" felt they were doing a service.

That said, it does us no good today to go back and rehash history to today's "moral" standards, or liberal lines of thinking. Revisionist history will never correct the "wrongs" committed.

I've tried the "gunning lifeboats", and all I did was waste AA ammo. I did manage to sink one or two ... and they showed in the log, but you don't get much credit for them, so what's the point?

[Mikkow]

I've been a keen student of psychology (including propaganda), sociology and history most of my life. And it is clear that if people knew more about history, the present wouldn't be as terrible as it is.

From a non-american and non-japanese perspective, I can honestly not see that much of a difference between the Allies and the Japanese in the pacific. They were all various imperial powers of varying ambition who just happened to clash. Their behaviour in the wars wasn't much different either (yes, some were worse than others, but none were good).

War paths are too readily acceptable by the public. Maybe if they truly understood more what real war is about.

Btw, I just read this great link on the topic, how the allies pain themselves out to have been the good guys completely relating to WW2 and about atrocities of both sides, etc. Just what this topic is about: http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1480178,00.html

[Gargantou]

I've been a keen student of psychology (including propaganda), sociology and history most of my life. And it is clear that if people knew more about history, the present wouldn't be as terrible as it is.

From a non-american and non-japanese perspective, I can honestly not see that much of a difference between the Allies and the Japanese in the pacific. They were all various imperial powers of varying ambition who just happened to clash. Their behaviour in the wars wasn't much different either (yes, some were worse than others, but none were good).

War paths are too readily acceptable by the public. Maybe if they truly understood more what real war is about.

Btw, I just read this great link on the topic, how the allies pain themselves out to have been the good guys completely relating to WW2 and about atrocities of both sides, etc. Just what this topic is about: http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1480178,00.htmlWell written Mikkow, by the way, about public accepting war, that reminds me of a quote, can't remember who said it.

"War is great/wonderful to those whom have not experienced it"

Which is so true, it's so easy for us to sit and judge the soldiers in Vietnam who killed vietnamese civilians for example, but lets face it, war is hell, and I doubt ANYONE on this board could experience real war without coming back as a VERY very changed person.

[TheSatyr]

The Pacific War was a racist war...on both sides,so it's no surpise it was as bloody as it was. Both sides viewed the other as being an inferior race. Pilots on both sides were known to shoot at bailed out pilots in parachutes and pilots on both sides were also know to shoot up lifeboats and survivors that were in the water.

Germany's war with Russia was much the same. The Germans considered the average Russian to be only slightly higher than animals on the evolutionary and intelligence chain...and treated them as such. Russian atrocities against the Germans were acts of revenge. Though that DOES not excuse thier rape and murder sprees against german women in conquered German cities.

[Sailor Steve]

I know it changed me.

I would never shoot at lifeboats, even in a game.




Well, as others described, maybe once, just to see what happened.




In the game.

[Mikkow]

I know it changed me.

I would never shoot at lifeboats, even in a game.




Well, as others described, maybe once, just to see what happened.




In the game.

I've been lurking for some time on and off, and I understand you have been in some kind of war. I suspected the Vietnam war, is this correct? Are there any old threads where you share any parts of your experience or do you prefer not to speak of it?

And, do you have any thoughts about this topic? The public? What about connections from past wars, painting over the ugly parts and connecting it to present day conflicts?

[tomoose]

Gargantou;
selective memory kicking in here I think. Your quote; "this was alls tarted by some guy who said that historically the US never ever fired at lifeboats, which is incorrect".

I suppose that "some guy" would be me, and I did NOT say that at all and I take umbrage at your suggesting I did. I said the US and the others were supposed to be under Geneva Conventions rules' and act accordingly (whether they did or not is obviously debateable) and you have now twisted that statement. Nice going.:down:

[Renesisfury]

Gargantou;
selective memory kicking in here I think. Your quote; "this was alls tarted by some guy who said that historically the US never ever fired at lifeboats, which is incorrect".

I suppose that "some guy" would be me, and I did NOT say that at all and I take umbrage at your suggesting I did. I said the US and the others were supposed to be under Geneva Conventions rules' and act accordingly (whether they did or not is obviously debateable) and you have now twisted that statement. Nice going.:down:
Got another one last night. Nice explosion sound

[clayp]

....on whether you're trying to play realistically or not. U.S. and the other allies abided by the Geneva Convention (as did Germany and I believe Japan) ergo shooting of non-combatants (which includes survivors in a lifeboat) was/is considered a criminal act (aka: murder).

japan didnt abide by anything except their animalistic ways.....:x

[Doolittle81]

....on whether you're trying to play realistically or not. U.S. and the other allies abided by the Geneva Convention (as did Germany and I believe Japan) ergo shooting of non-combatants (which includes survivors in a lifeboat) was/is considered a criminal act (aka: murder).

My last post on this subject....these threads seldom result in anything positive...or at least minds/opinions are not substantially changed. I could be wrong.

Anyway, with regard to the tomoose post above, I believe there is very little evidence of Japan abiding by any provisions of the Geneva convention, whatsoever, in action/fact or in principle. Japan was not a signatory to the 1929 Geneva convention, though that does not excuse them for ignoring the principles, thereof.

I would suggest a more thorough reading of the Documentation provided via the link in Ducimus' post....specifically by those who profess moral equivalency or equivalency of scale between allied and Japanese 'war crimes'.

Given the inital thrust of this Thread, 'what to do about ship-sinking survivors', I would suggest that some of you might try downloading and enabling a sorta "Mod" I recently made. It's a simple substitution of a new INTRO movie, a sequence in which somewhat relates to the subject at hand. The movie swap can be done manually or via JSGME, totally reversible. You can even view it offline, so to speak, in WMP. Here's link to the thread: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=126447

[-Pv-]

I seem to recall in the Morton life boat incident he was fired on from one of the life boats before he opened fire on them. I've not yet felt compelled to fire on them. I'm more interested in clearing the area before help shows help.
I post this one day after Pearl Harbor day (if we want to rant on war crimes.)
-Pv-

[Sailor Steve]

I've been lurking for some time on and off, and I understand you have been in some kind of war. I suspected the Vietnam war, is this correct? Are there any old threads where you share any parts of your experience or do you prefer not to speak of it?
I enlisted in the navy in 1969 as I preferred it to being drafted into the army. Yes, it was VietNam. They put me through radio school, then flew me to Subic Bay in the Philippines. After a trip in two different fleet oilers, I finally reached my destroyer. We had three main tasks: escort for aircraft carriers (mainly the Ranger and Bon Homme Richard), Search-and-Rescue (just like "lifeguard duty" in the game - pilots with damaged planes tried to reach the ocean where we would pick them up; it never happened though, except for a Phantom crew who ditched just shy of Ranger when we were technically on escort duty), and fire support. This last consisted of us anchoring offshore and playing mobile artillery for the marines. After a firing session they would send us a status report - including body counts. That part wasn't much fun.

And, do you have any thoughts about this topic? The public? What about connections from past wars, painting over the ugly parts and connecting it to present day conflicts?
There were many discussions about lifeboats not being in SH3. I'm surprised but glad they appear in SH4. They add to the feel of the game, seeing people leaving a sinking ship.

[Doolittle81]

I enlisted in the navy in 1969 as I preferred it to being drafted into the army. Yes, it was VietNam. They put me through radio school, then flew me to Subic Bay in the Philippines. After a trip in two different fleet oilers, I finally reached my destroyer. We had three main tasks: escort for aircraft carriers (mainly the Ranger and Bon Homme Richard), Search-and-Rescue (just like "lifeguard duty" in the game - pilots with damaged planes tried to reach the ocean where we would pick them up; it never happened though, except for a Phantom crew who ditched just shy of Ranger when we were technically on escort duty), and fire support. ....

Small world. I frequently flew over the Gulf of Tonkin (and Laos, Cambodia, SVN, South China Sea, etc) from 1967 through 1974. Couldn't fly into (over) the Gulf unless the carrier was on station and providing CAP. If things had gone askew, so to speak, you might have been fishing me out of the sea.

I also did a week long 'orientation cruise' in 1962 aboard the Ranger. Believe it or not, I got a bit queasy...not SeaSick, just queasy. On a Carrier, for God's sake! What ship could be more stable. I knew the Navy wasn't for me! USAF all the way.

[seaniam81]

I'm going to say both sides did stuff nobody should be proud of. The British went out and fire bombed german cities, while gemany bombed british cities. The US went out and locked up people of "asian" decent and put them into camps.

[tomoose]

For those that want to delve a bit more into the various Conventions and other agreements;

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/lawwar.htm

http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/President_Wilson%27s_Fourteen_Points

:up:

[kylesplanet]

I've been a keen student of psychology (including propaganda), sociology and history most of my life. And it is clear that if people knew more about history, the present wouldn't be as terrible as it is.

From a non-american and non-japanese perspective, I can honestly not see that much of a difference between the Allies and the Japanese in the pacific. They were all various imperial powers of varying ambition who just happened to clash. Their behaviour in the wars wasn't much different either (yes, some were worse than others, but none were good).

War paths are too readily acceptable by the public. Maybe if they truly understood more what real war is about.

Btw, I just read this great link on the topic, how the allies pain themselves out to have been the good guys completely relating to WW2 and about atrocities of both sides, etc. Just what this topic is about: http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1480178,00.html

I don't really care for the moral equivilance drawn there between the allies and the Japanese. No one wants to fight a war but sometimes unavoidable. It's always easy to infer "Americans are imperialist" it happens all the time but what if we sat it out?

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stuart Mill

[ETR3(SS)]

Well imho, the lifeboats were an unesessary addition to the game. And then to make them destrucable? Personally I would have liked to see seagulls that I could shoot and kill, never was there such a more foul creature than the seagull.

[kylesplanet]

Well imho, the lifeboats were an unesessary addition to the game. And then to make them destrucable? Personally I would have liked to see seagulls that I could shoot and kill, never was there such a more foul creature than the seagull.

I tried to shoot those annoying things myself.:rotfl:

[ATR-42]

You guys are going to have to correct me on the details here...

im sure most of you have read Silent Running, I recently finished it...

The Jack picked up a prisoner or two while on patrol. I was shocked when i read this. The captain was reluctant to pick up any more but the one or two that were on board were well fed and put to work. The author even noted they gained noticeable weight after enjoying the food! The crew put them to work polishing the brass in the forward torpedo rooom :) . And again he noted that for the first time since commissioning you could eat off the torpedo room floors and brass.

He mentioned his sadness when they returned to port and they handed off the prisoners to the marines and how they were treated in the short time he could visually see them being walked off the plank.

[LeafsFan]

I could do without the lifeboats as well.

HB

[Ducimus]

All im going to add, is one incident of lifeboat shooting does not equal the multitude of worse offenses commited by the enemy at the time.

I think the whole war time attrocities/morton argument, is to somehow equate 1 or 2 instances to being the equivlant of 5 or 10 (or more) instances - most of which are much more horrfiic.

I don't understand the point behind the argument much. Is it to say we were all bad to make japan look better? To equate the US with Japan so we look that much more evil? To say one is no better then the other? 1 + 0 does not equal 10.

[clayp]

My last word on the subject.....I WILL SHOOT THEM EVERY CHANCE i GET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/3648/leonardgsiffleetzc4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Elder-Pirate]

I don't mind the life boats in SH4 but I do think the DEVs could have at least coded the Japanese ships to pick them up and not just sail off and leave them to drown.

Since you have one it needs the other.

[Renesisfury]

I don't mind the life boats in SH4 but I do think the DEVs could have at least coded the Japanese ships to pick them up and not just sail off and leave them to drown.

Since you have one it needs the other.
Hey, more stationary targets? Sign me up!

[Oldgamer48]

It was still a violation of the Geneva Convention which afaik the US claimed to 'abide' to, and he was not charged with warcrimes after the patrol, even though destroying (populated) lifeboats is clearly against the geneva convention.
The killing of prisoners was a common thing in World War II ... all countries. My best friend was killed right in front of my eyes in Vietnam (blown apart by a 152mm HE round). Had I a close encounter with the helpless enemy, soon after, it would have taken a lot of "convincing" to keep me from committing a breach of the Geneva Convention.

What happens in war is that the combatants are dehumanized by the brutality of it. Considering the lethality of modern weapons, it's a miracle that millions of "casualties" don't occur, today. When the wars end, the winners go home, and the losers face war crimes tribunals.

That's life ...

@clayp
The picture kind of puts it in perspective, doesn't it?

[captiandon]

Just as an aside, what got me looking more closely at japanese warcrimes was when i was doing research for the bungo pete/akikaze mod in TM.

I ran accross this page:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_pacific.html

Primarly because an incident took place called "THE 'AKIKAZE' EXECUTIONS". Naturally it peaked my curiosity. Not wanting to take a obscure user page at face value, i started googleing some of the incidents described on that page, and they all seem to have really occured.


Another Good research would be the book We Were Three at Batan. It talks about the Batan Death March from a survivers stand point, Written by a Surviver of it. I read that when I was in Fourth Grade. Was a long time ago but this just reminded me of reading that book.

[ssbn627g]

....on whether you're trying to play realistically or not. U.S. and the other allies abided by the Geneva Convention (as did Germany and I believe Japan) ergo shooting of non-combatants (which includes survivors in a lifeboat) was/is considered a criminal act (aka: murder).

Unless they are shooting at you, I.E. the 3rd or 4th patrol of Wahoo, where Mush Morton shot up the life boats that were shooting at them.

[Fincuan]

....on whether you're trying to play realistically or not. U.S. and the other allies abided by the Geneva Convention (as did Germany and I believe Japan) ergo shooting of non-combatants (which includes survivors in a lifeboat) was/is considered a criminal act (aka: murder).

Unless they are shooting at you, I.E. the 3rd or 4th patrol of Wahoo, where Mush Morton shot up the life boats that were shooting at them.

Yep, but it was the Wahoo that actually opened fire first.


At 1155 sighted tops of fourth ship to the right of the cripple. Her thick
masts in line had the appearance of a light cruiser's tops. Kept heading for
these ships hoping that the last one sighted would attempt to pick up survivors
of the transport. When the range was about 10,000 yards, however, she turned
right and joined the cripple, her masts bridge structure and engines aft
identifying her as a tanker. Decided to let these two ships get over the horizon
while we surfaced to charge batteries and destroy the estimated twenty troop
boats now in the water. These boats were of many types, scows, motor
launches, cabin cruisers and nondescript varieties. At 1135 made battle
surfaces [sic] and manned all guns. Fired 4" gun at largest scow loaded with
troops. Although all troops in this boat apparently jumped in the water our fire
was returned by small caliber machine guns. We then opened fire with
everything we had. Then set course 085 degrees at flank speed to overtake
the cripple and tanker.

From there on they went after the two ships that escaped, ultimately sinking both.

[Sailor Steve]

I don't mind the life boats in SH4 but I do think the DEVs could have at least coded the Japanese ships to pick them up and not just sail off and leave them to drown.

Since you have one it needs the other.
Actually, they shouldn't stop and pick them up. British convoys in the Atlantic had strict orders not to make themselves targets by stopping to take on survivors. After the battle the escorts would try to pick up survivors, but only if it was convenient.
http://www.junobeach.org/e/2/can-eve-mob-atl-baddeck-e.htm
http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/macslog/GermanRadiocalleditGreate.html

[Elder-Pirate]

I don't mind the life boats in SH4 but I do think the DEVs could have at least coded the Japanese ships to pick them up and not just sail off and leave them to drown.

Since you have one it needs the other.
Actually, they shouldn't stop and pick them up. British convoys in the Atlantic had strict orders not to make themselves targets by stopping to take on survivors. After the battle the escorts would try to pick up survivors, but only if it was convenient.
http://www.junobeach.org/e/2/can-eve-mob-atl-baddeck-e.htm
http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/macslog/GermanRadiocalleditGreate.html


Very good but in the Sim ( especially SH4 1.4 ) I've seen DD's following very slowly behind crippled ships ( that just would not sink :damn: ) and almost hit their guys in lifeboats and keep on going. This has happened twice and both times I was out of torps just watching slightly above the surface. I still think the DEVs could have coded it for them to be picked up even if it was a last chance deal.

[kylesplanet]

I don't mind the life boats in SH4 but I do think the DEVs could have at least coded the Japanese ships to pick them up and not just sail off and leave them to drown.

Since you have one it needs the other.
Actually, they shouldn't stop and pick them up. British convoys in the Atlantic had strict orders not to make themselves targets by stopping to take on survivors. After the battle the escorts would try to pick up survivors, but only if it was convenient.
http://www.junobeach.org/e/2/can-eve-mob-atl-baddeck-e.htm
http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/macslog/GermanRadiocalleditGreate.html


Very good but in the Sim ( especially SH4 1.4 ) I've seen DD's following very slowly behind crippled ships ( that just would not sink :damn: ) and almost hit their guys in lifeboats and keep on going. This has happened twice and both times I was out of torps just watching slightly above the surface. I still think the DEVs could have coded it for them to be picked up even if it was a last chance deal.

If one of the DD's stopped to pick up surviors and I had a shot at him, hey he's gone.

[jason210]

The first time I saw a lifeboat pop up was during a storm off the Japan coast. I thought that was what the rescue button was for. That didn't work, so then I tried to pull alongside the lifeboat but those little japs kept rowing away (either that or there was a strong current). After that I gave up and didn't bother again.

I died shortly afterwards by accidently pressing the "D" key while at 2048 time acceleration.

If there's a moral to this story then I've no idea what it is.

[rubenandthejets]

Lifeboats are worth hitting (1 ton to your stats) and make fine AAA practice. I've found the 20mm are better than the 40mm for this role. I also run them over. Mind you, now I only take out survivors from IJN ships or troopships going TO the front.

I justify this quite simply:
1: Its a game.
2: The treatment of POWs, the nationals of conquered countries and esp. women and children by the Japanese. You wanna play hardball, huh? No problem. Ever heard of Unit 731? How about Nangking? USS Panay? Changi? :nope:

We Australians were fighting for our lives in the Pacific. We got hit in Darwin, Broome and Sydney. By mid 42 we'd seen what happened to POWs and Convention or not it was touch and go if any Japanese soldier surrendering was shot. Not that we talk about it though......:oops:

For more incidents where survivors in lifeboats wre deliberately targetted, check out the Battle of the Bismark Sea. US and RAAF aircraft wrote off a convoy of troops headed for PNG and were ordered to finish off the survivors with strafing runs.

So, anyway, yeah, I take 'em out. I don't get penalised by the game mechanics and the big ones are worth a ton each. Less trained personnel going back into circulation. I've tried hosing downed pilots too (especially if they hit my ship) but it doesn't seem to work.

PS It's a GAME.

[Elder-Pirate]

Lifeboats are worth hitting (1 ton to your stats) and make fine AAA practice. I've found the 20mm are better than the 40mm for this role. I also run them over. Mind you, now I only take out survivors from IJN ships or troopships going TO the front.

I justify this quite simply:
1: Its a game.
2: The treatment of POWs, the nationals of conquered countries and esp. women and children by the Japanese. You wanna play hardball, huh? No problem. Ever heard of Unit 731? How about Nangking? USS Panay? Changi? :nope:

We Australians were fighting for our lives in the Pacific. We got hit in Darwin, Broome and Sydney. By mid 42 we'd seen what happened to POWs and Convention or not it was touch and go if any Japanese soldier surrendering was shot. Not that we talk about it though......:oops:

For more incidents where survivors in lifeboats wre deliberately targetted, check out the Battle of the Bismark Sea. US and RAAF aircraft wrote off a convoy of troops headed for PNG and were ordered to finish off the survivors with strafing runs.

So, anyway, yeah, I take 'em out. I don't get penalised by the game mechanics and the big ones are worth a ton each. Less trained personnel going back into circulation. I've tried hosing downed pilots too (especially if they hit my ship) but it doesn't seem to work.

PS It's a GAME.




There were a lot of people whom did not want the lifeboats in both SH3 ( Devs did not either ) and SH4. Some got their wish in SH4 but many still do not like.

Personally I do not see the point in wasting ammo on 1 lousy ton. besides none of the survivors make it anyway.

And what Sub captain wants to get all shot up/sunk by either near by war ships or those pesky airplanes? :hmm:

I'll just stay under them until everything is all clear then I'll surface and go look for the BIG boys not small fries.

But as you say : It's a game.

To each his own. :)

[gimpy117]

Should you do it? Any negatives? I thought it would be a good excuse to keep myself sharp on AA.
I can't sink them...but I have tried

but I like the boats...it makes it more real and less "sanitized"

[Torplexed]

I must admit I sometimes feel a pang of guilt leaving the Japanese crew members to their fate in an open boat in the pitching cold sea, even though the rational part of me knows it's just a 3-D animated construct.

To make myself feel better as I steam away I imagine hearing a faint cry on the wind from the fading lifeboats: YOOOOUUU DIE SOOOOON YANKEEEEE!!! ;)

[Elder-Pirate]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: YOOOOUUU DIE SOOOOON YANKEEEEE!!! ;)


Jeez Torplexed you don't have any mercy on a guys gut do you, I could not have laughed any harder. Ohhhh it hurts. :rotfl:

[Torplexed]

Sorry! It's just me rationalizing by reaching into my fond memories of those Hollywood World War 2 movie stereotypes. :p

My favorite was always the Japanese officer who when he interrogated one of our soldiers always turned out to have a UCLA education, which--talk about ingratitude--he turned against us. ("American! Terr me the rocation of yoah headquatah! Ahh, I see you suppry I speak Engrish so werr!") ;)

[rubenandthejets]

I must admit I sometimes feel a pang of guilt leaving the Japanese crew members to their fate in an open boat in the pitching cold sea, even though the rational part of me knows it's just a 3-D animated construct.

To make myself feel better as I steam away I imagine hearing a faint cry on the wind from the fading lifeboats: YOOOOUUU DIE SOOOOON YANKEEEEE!!! ;)

For more realism, here's phrase that in Japanese:

"Sugu, anta o shine Ameko!"
Hope you sleep easier at night now.

[clayp]

It was still a violation of the Geneva Convention which afaik the US claimed to 'abide' to, and he was not charged with warcrimes after the patrol, even though destroying (populated) lifeboats is clearly against the geneva convention.
The killing of prisoners was a common thing in World War II ... all countries. My best friend was killed right in front of my eyes in Vietnam (blown apart by a 152mm HE round). Had I a close encounter with the helpless enemy, soon after, it would have taken a lot of "convincing" to keep me from committing a breach of the Geneva Convention.

What happens in war is that the combatants are dehumanized by the brutality of it. Considering the lethality of modern weapons, it's a miracle that millions of "casualties" don't occur, today. When the wars end, the winners go home, and the losers face war crimes tribunals.

That's life ...

@clayp
>>>>>>>The picture kind of puts it in perspective, doesn't it?<<<<<<<<

I just saw this,what did I do now?

[fireship4]

http://kiuchi.jpn.org/en/nobindex.htm

It's so easy to dehumanise people. Whats going on in Gaza right now?

[Task Force]

The American Liberty ship Jean Nicolet, was torpedoed on July 2, 1944, while en route from Fremantle to Colombo. Her complement of 100 were taken on board the foredeck of the Japanese submarine I-8 and one by one led to the stern of the vessel where they had to run a gauntlet of Japanese sailors who beat them with clubs, iron bars and bayonets before being kicked or pushed into the sea. While squatting on the forward deck waiting their turn, the remaining survivors were washed overboard when the submarine submerged. Of the 100 passengers and crew of the Jean Nicolet only 23 survived to tell the tale. Similar atrocities were perpetrated on the survivors of the tanker British Chivalry (February 22, 1944) sunk by the I-37. Survivors in two lifeboats were machine-gunned, killing 20 crewmembers, the rest drifted for thirty-seven days before being rescued.

I remember reading this before somewhere. They sunk the liberty ship, then beat some of the crew in the head and knocked them overboard. If im correct, a plane came and made them dive.

Then I remember reading something about the Japanese using Chinese citizens to test bio experiments on. using them till they died or something like that.

[Schroeder]

If you fight a monster you must be careful not to become a monster yourself.

Easy to say sitting in an armchair but it still holds some truth.

[rubenandthejets]

See? 37 days in a lifeboat! Check out William Bligh's amazing piece of navigation and survival in an open boat in the middle of the Pacific-he made it to Indonesia, over 3000 km away and that was on salt beef and hard tack!

If I dont hose those IJN sailors with 40mm AAA fire or run over their boats, they'll row all the way back to Tokyo and ship out on the next DD!

Take 'em out! Do it! You owe it to the pixilated avatars representing your crew!

[Bilge_Rat]

On the Mush Morton issue, after Pearl harbour, anti-japanese feeling in the US was very high, to the point where japanese were viewed as sub-humans.

The amazing part of the Morton story is not that he machine gunned survivors in the water, but that he did not even bother to hide it. He wrote the story in his patrol report. The report was approved by his superiors without any negative mention or negative impact on his career. The story was widely known in the submarine corps and although some officers felt it was in bad taste, many did not see anything wrong with what Morton has done.

Of course, the Pacific War was very brutal even by WW2 standards. For example, in the battle of the Bismack Sea in early 43, USAAF bombers sank a japanese troop convoy and then strafed and killed as many survivors in the water as they could, again a clear violation of the geneva convention. The rationale, however, was that any japanese survivor which landed would fight against US troops and therefore that japanese soldiers were always a legitimate military target.

[Skooma]

the Captain NEVER ever faced charges for warcrimes etc for this occurence.

That's because we won the war :p.



it would be cool to be able to take POW's in game.

It barely has enough room for the crew it ships out with, much less POWs who need to watched all the time and eat the limited rations.

[SharpShin]

Hey! Seagulls are protected by the Federal Migratory Bird Treaty Act. :O: