In Memoriam

[tater]

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h72000/h72273k.jpg

tater

[Ducimus]

You know, i totally forgot what day was today, other then it being a payday friday. :shifty:

[brandtryan]

This civilian appreciates the men and women protecting our country--then, and now!

[Snuffy]

<o :salute:

[simonb1612]

I overheard the following conversation today

Younger woman: What is the date today, is it the 7th?
Older gent: Yes it is the 66th anniversary

He then went on to explain his answer to the confused woman and her colleague.

As someone who spent the majority of his life in England, I am only just starting to appreciate the impact of attack on PH. I Had been living here for 6 months when the attacks of 9/11 occured and I can only imagine that the national pshcye was impacted in a similar way back in 1941.

Thank you to everyone who has, or is serving to protect our freedoms.

[AVGWarhawk]

I was wondering who would put up the first post. Nice one Tater. Salute to all the young guys and gals who put life on hold Dec 7th 1941!

[Torps]

The WWII generation is still the best in my opinion (27, served in combat,Iraq 2003).

[seaniam81]

*salute
to the fallen

[Rockin Robbins]

A view I have never seen anywhere, but worth a thought or two:

The Japanese, by attacking Pearl Harbor and killing 2,350 and sinking (if only temporarily in some instances) our battleship fleet, prevented a much more devastating Japanese victory which could have shaken US resolve in the Pacific, resulting in a negotiated settlement of the dispute.

Our strategy was "Showdown at the OK Corral." We were to locate the Japanese navy and force a decisive battle between capital ships. It wouldn't have been close. The Japanese would have slaughtered 10,000 and sent many more ships to the bottom in thousands of feet of water where no salvage would have been possible.

Pearl Harbor was a small price to pay. It taught us the lessons that won the Pacific war. We were forced from a strategy for humiliating defeat to a submarine strategy for victory. We were forced to exploit our advantage in aircraft and pilots. Pearl Harbor forces us to win the war. It was a collosal blunder on the part of the Japanese.

Has anyone ever read or heard any idea close to this? I haven't and it seems so obvious.

[Dowly]

Rest in Peace.

[tater]

Actually, I'd say it was even simpler, RR. The Japanese required a short war with a negotiated peace. Changes in US doctrine (out of necessity post PH) would not have changed the fact that the RAGE over the attack meant that there was zero possibility of a negotiated peace.

The Japanese lost the war that very morning since their plan required such a negotiated settlement, and they prevented it by their own actions.

The timing of their defeat was up for grabs based on tactics/strategy afterwards, but it was a foregone conclusion.

tater

[DeepIron]

To All Those on Eternal Patrol, our Thanks for your selflessness, bravery and sacrifice.

[Ducimus]

One thing ive always wondered is, if the japanese had never attacked pearl harbor, would we still have entered the war? ( i think social opinion at the time was highly divided, much as it is today) And if we would have still entered the war, when?

As sometimes cited, the attack on pearl harbor was a tactical victory, but a horrible strategic mistake.

[SteamWake]

Whatever happend to 'infamy' the only place I see even a passing mention of this tragic moment in human history is on a game forum. :oops:

<Bows head in silent prayer>

[tater]

The Japanese convinced themselves that they had to take out the US, because the Philippines commanded their sea lanes to the NEI. The NEI (and its oil) was the entire point of the war. It's certainly possible they might have been able to avoid the US for a time, but we might have had no choice but to go in. Also, they know that by 1943 we'd start to be impossible to beat (just based on our already announced and funded naval increases that were public).

Willmott makes a very good argument that they would have had the best chance had they persued the Indian Ocean with more than just raids. India was dicey, and it could have gone either way. Unlike the germans, they IJN was a real navy, they could have possibly taken the Suez Canal since they could actually project real force.

An interesting what-if.

[DeepIron]

As sometimes cited, the attack on pearl harbor was a tactical victory, but a horrible strategic mistake. The Japanese simply had no choice. After their aggressive expansion in quest for raw materials, they knew they would eventually have to confront the USN. Adm. Yamamoto knew early on that he couldn't win, to a decisive victory for Nippon, the Pacific Theatre, so he did what he could.

What I find ironic is that the one raw resource the Japanese needed above anything else... was oil.

[EDIT] tater beat me to it...

[Ducimus]

FDR' acutal pearl harbor address on audio.
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/fdrpearlharbor.htm

[ReallyDedPoet]

RIP to all those on eternal patrol.


RDP

[silent killer]

even we canadians remember Dec 7 1941 . a salute to your armmed forces.

[Rockin Robbins]

As sometimes cited, the attack on pearl harbor was a tactical victory, but a horrible strategic mistake. The Japanese simply had no choice. After their aggressive expansion in quest for raw materials, they knew they would eventually have to confront the USN. Adm. Yamoto knew early on that he couldn't win, to a decisive victory for Nippon, the Pacific Theatre, so he did what he could.

What I find ironic is that the one raw resource the Japanese needed above anything else... was oil.

Perfectly said, along with Ducimus' musing about whether we would have entered the war. You've hit on a partial answer, the Japanese HAD to hit the Dutch colonies for their oil production. Hitting that close to Australia, how would they be able to convince the British that they would not attack Australia? I believe it would have taken awhile, but cannot see any way for the US to avoid a war in which its allies from the European war were embroiled. We couldn't say "You're our allies in Europe but we're neutral in the Pacific. Have a nice war."

However, by forestalling US entry for awhile and killing the US fleet at sea, the Japanese would have achieved a much better position, and possibly even knocked us out of the war until the Eurpean conflict was resolved. We would not have developed our submarine strategy, we would not have passed go, we would not have collected $200.

[kikn79]

Salute to all veterans of all allied nations who put their lives on the line for freedom!!

Ironically, the war was good for Japan, also. The forcing of the people in power to admit defeat and step down was a great step toward them becoming a peaceful nation. Who would have thought 66 years ago that they would be one of our allies now.

Chuck

[DeepIron]

A bit OT: It's also interesting to note that at the end of '42, Japanese oil imports were just over 1,000,000 barrels/mo, more that enough to keep all Japanese vessels in full fuel tankage. By the end of May '44, this number was reduced to around 600,000 barrels/mo. The decimation of Japans Maritime tanker fleet was devastating to both IJN and Maritime operations. US Subs accounted for most, but not all, of this destruction. :up:

[Ishmael]

On this day in 1941, my father was an able seaman aboard the SS Lena Luckenback about 600 miles east-north-east of Oahu on the run out from San Francisco. About 300 miles to the nor-nor-east of them was the SS Cynthia Olson. My father told me of hearing her distress calls a few hours before the attack began.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4013/colsonui1.jpg

This SUP ship was the first sunk by a Japanese submarine on December 7, 1941. The attack occurred a few hours before Pearl Harbor was bombed, so the shock of the doomed sailors could not have been greater. She went down with all hands. The sinking of the Cynthia Olson symbolically represents the final intersection of two eras. Like steam replacing sail many years earlier, the onset of World War II began the replacement of many of the aging coastwise “steam schooners,” a trade that had grown with the SUP since its inception.

He pulled in to Pearl on 12/9 with bodies still floating in the water. SUP stands for Sailors Union Of The Pacific. Here's a link to their website history page. It has a photo gallery with some pics of Andrew Ferusuth, founder of the Union, who signed my grandfather's union card.

http://www.sailors.org/history.html

[scrag]

The ceremony is over, the Vets linger - starring out into the water now marked with white markers where a proud battle fleet once stood. Boats transiting to and from the ARIZONA, the mighty Battleship MISSOURI standing watch behind the ARIZONA truly Alpha and Omega. It is rainy here today, been like that since Monday, seems more like the Gods are crying. The memorial is marked by an over flight from the HICKAM AFB - 4 CHINHOOK Helicopters flyby in the Missing Man followed by a B-2 Bomber, The USS LAKE ERIE CG-70 passes by with her rails manned rendering honors. A rain shower starts again, echo - taps is being rendered. Today the USS OKLAHOMA Memorial is dedicated. It is somber as somber can be. Today onboard Naval Station Pearl Harbor the national anthems of the US, Australia and that of Japan where played. We are hosting ships from those nations - allies now. The JSDMF KONGO a DDG is one of those visiting. Ironic isn't it.
One other small fact - those who have visited here or are planning on it and also planning on visiting the ARIZONA Memorial should note that the number of those interned onboard changes yearly - those Sailors and Marines who died are joined by a number of there shipmates who survived them - they ask to come back and to have there urns placed back onboard the ship and to rejoin those they left behind. That plaque continues to fill up - sadly.
Mahalo to the thread and to those who remember the sacrifice.

[Vorkapitan]

Thanks to all Veterans that are still alive and those that gave their lives so that we can enjoy what liberties we still have.

Also thanks to all the men and women from all countries that supported us in defeating Japan!

:up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

Joe

[Vorkapitan]

A sad note:


A Veteran friend of mine mentioned that on "Veteran's Day" that not one article appeared in the newspapers. He asked me "Don't they care anymore, don't they remember?".

I said that I would "never forget' what the Veterans did for our country.

He had just turned 84 and died shortly after that. (how sad) :oops:


Joe

[Wilcke]

SALUTE!

[CDR Resser]

Thank You to all who serve and have served as well as those who gave their lives.
Remember Pearl Harbor is as important a battle cry today as it was in 1941.
To be complacent or unprepared is to dishonor their memory.

Respectfully Submitted,
CDR Resser

[mookiemookie]

A big salute to those who died that day.

[Torp III]

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve"

Admiral Yamamoto right after the attack on Pearl Harbor

[Ducimus]

Corret me if im wrong, but i remember as a kid, today was marked on the calander as "pearl harbor day". So im looking at my calander here at work. It's one of those "you might be a redneck if..." calanders. You'd figure with this content, it would be careful to note certain stuff.

Dec 5 "first day of haunika"

Dec 10, "human rights day".


Uhhh wait a minute here, they forgot something in between. Somethings wrong when were not even printing this stuff on calanders anymore.

Dec 26, boxing day?! Come on now.

[clayp]

MY GOD i FORGOT!!!!!....REST IN PEACE ALL YOU HEROS......

[odjig292]

As Ducimus asks "Why isn't Pearl Harbor Day marked on the calendars?

I'm old enough to remember the shock of Pearl Harbor. My father was in the RCN on an auxiliary cruiser stationed out of Jamaice fighting the war in the Atlantic. They were given an hour to get steam up to head to Esquimalt (north of Seattle) to defend the Pacific coast. Most of the US Pacific fleet had been sunk or damaged, and they were one of the few ships available. As Canadians we were glad the US was finally in the war as allies, because we now knew we could win. Britain and the dominions like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, etc. were stretched thin and losing almost everywhere. Those of us who fight the U-boat war in SH3 know how close the Germans came to winning the Battle of the Atlantic, even after the US came in.

I've stood on the Arizona Monument and asked the same question that Ducimus did. He added Roosevelts's quote "I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost, but will make it very certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger us." The Britians were suckered into giving Hilter a second chance at Munich. The US was blind-sided by Pearl Harbor. We were all blind-sided again on 9/11. Don't we ever learn there is no substitute for constant vigilance?

As an old adage says "Those that do not study history are doomed to repeat it!" I'm not in favor of war, no one is, but we need to teach young people the lessons of history more. We live in the some of the most democratic countries in the world, but do so only because tens of thousands of brave young men died to give us that freedom. Marking the days they died on the calendars would be a start.

[scrag]

I guess this needs to be a different thread as it is about the events surrounding Pearl this day in 1941.
Hindsight is always 20/20 period. The US will be vigilant. One can never accurately predict the next sneak attack - ever. Yes there are signs but working in the Intel field these are estimates - when we look at our best guess we escalate and then we get even more hindsight after the mess if there is an error. The only way a country can ever justify the means is after a sacrifice such as Pearl. It would have been fantastic if it could have been prevented. But had Pearl not happened - it would have been a much uglier and worse world (my guess) as we would be speaking German or something else. Pearl Harbor was a tragedy but in the end it was the catalyst needed to unify a Nation that would later become a Juggernaut and ultimately teach a Military Regime and those that follow it this - This far and no further - we will give you no ground and shall protect ours and that of our allies as sacred. We will do it at any cost. It is our right to be free, to practice what beliefs we hold dear, to have a chance at at a better life. No military crack pot or religious zealot will ever be allowed to take these away from us because of the guys who stood the watch December 7th. September 11 and who continue to do so. It is not just America's military - it is simply America and her people that make us and keep us. To our close friends overseas I also salute those events that define you as a nation and to the support and common beliefs we all share.

[biosthetique]

A couple of seconds to remember the innocent victims of governments unable to settle down their differences other than through violence is never too much to ask.
Just remembering that some can't remember anymore!
GHWY

[kylesplanet]

I guess this needs to be a different thread as it is about the events surrounding Pearl this day in 1941.
Hindsight is always 20/20 period. The US will be vigilant. One can never accurately predict the next sneak attack - ever. Yes there are signs but working in the Intel field these are estimates - when we look at our best guess we escalate and then we get even more hindsight after the mess if there is an error. The only way a country can ever justify the means is after a sacrifice such as Pearl. It would have been fantastic if it could have been prevented. But had Pearl not happened - it would have been a much uglier and worse world (my guess) as we would be speaking German or something else. Pearl Harbor was a tragedy but in the end it was the catalyst needed to unify a Nation that would later become a Juggernaut and ultimately teach a Military Regime and those that follow it this - This far and no further - we will give you no ground and shall protect ours and that of our allies as sacred. We will do it at any cost. It is our right to be free, to practice what beliefs we hold dear, to have a chance at at a better life. No military crack pot or religious zealot will ever be allowed to take these away from us because of the guys who stood the watch December 7th. September 11 and who continue to do so. It is not just America's military - it is simply America and her people that make us and keep us. To our close friends overseas I also salute those events that define you as a nation and to the support and common beliefs we all share.

Both your post were great Scrag.:up:

[SteamWake]

Let us not forget the past lest we be doomed to repeat it.