Two questions

[onnel]

Two quick questions, which hopefully will prove easy to answer:

1. The TDC range finder seems very inaccurate. Turning the "wheel", it seems to jump about. For example, even if I turn it so it is at 8000, when I click the mouse button to set it, it often sets at 7000. Is it simply useless at these long ranges and I should be waiting to even bother getting a really good range read until the target is much closer? How close? I often have the target all plotted out beautifully, but I just cannot get the range right. How much is this going to mess up my shots?

2. What range is optimal for firing? I thought I saw <1000
yards mentioned as optimal, but that means the torpedo running time is going to be under 1 minutes. Is that right?

I've been trying to get an early plot and then lay in wait submerged only to pop up at the last minute, take one last range reading and fire. unfortunately, because the range finder is so fiddly and because everything happens so damn fast under a few thousand yards (If I have the target plotted so they will cross my bow at 90 degrees 1000 yards in front of me, at a few thousand yards it seems as if they are coming straight at me!).

Any thoughts or advice? I never seemed to have this much of a problem in SH3. Oh, I'm playing realistic with only the map updates on so I can make sure my plots are accurate until I'm really comfortable with it. I'm also playing with TM, if it makes any difference.

Thanks for any and all advice!

[Shyzar]

Two quick questions, which hopefully will prove easy to answer:

1. The TDC range finder seems very inaccurate. Turning the "wheel", it seems to jump about. For example, even if I turn it so it is at 8000, when I click the mouse button to set it, it often sets at 7000. Is it simply useless at these long ranges and I should be waiting to even bother getting a really good range read until the target is much closer? How close? I often have the target all plotted out beautifully, but I just cannot get the range right. How much is this going to mess up my shots?

2. What range is optimal for firing? I thought I saw <1000
yards mentioned as optimal, but that means the torpedo running time is going to be under 1 minutes. Is that right?

I've been trying to get an early plot and then lay in wait submerged only to pop up at the last minute, take one last range reading and fire. unfortunately, because the range finder is so fiddly and because everything happens so damn fast under a few thousand yards (If I have the target plotted so they will cross my bow at 90 degrees 1000 yards in front of me, at a few thousand yards it seems as if they are coming straight at me!).

Any thoughts or advice? I never seemed to have this much of a problem in SH3. Oh, I'm playing realistic with only the map updates on so I can make sure my plots are accurate until I'm really comfortable with it. I'm also playing with TM, if it makes any difference.

Thanks for any and all advice!

Don't you just line up the top image to the masts of the original to get range? or do you do it differently?

And I would say around 1000 yards or less is optimal firing range.

[onnel]

I've been lining up the top masts, but the it still seems very jumpyand touchy...not at all accurate. Or am I expecting greater accuracy than is reasonable? How accurate should my range be to get hits at 1000 yards? Is it OK if my range estimation is off by 100 yards? What sort of margin of error should I aim for?

Maybe playing with the auto map updates is simply highlighting how imperfect the range estimation is and thus Ii feel like i'm doing worse than I am.

Thoughts?

[jazman]

Two quick questions, which hopefully will prove easy to answer:

1. The TDC range finder seems very inaccurate. Turning the "wheel", it seems to jump about. For example, even if I turn it so it is at 8000, when I click the mouse button to set it, it often sets at 7000. Is it simply useless at these long ranges and I should be waiting to even bother getting a really good range read until the target is much closer? How close? I often have the target all plotted out beautifully, but I just cannot get the range right. How much is this going to mess up my shots?

If you use the O'Kane method, which is to line up a 90-degree AOB shot, preferably with the sub pointing straight at (or away from) the ship, range doesn't matter. If you find ships and you can get shots that way, do it.

Here's a thread where the O'Kane method is described.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=118923

That 90-degree AOB is beautiful, range doesn't matter, because it's all proportional. Right triangles and all that.

But yes, the wheel is crazily jumpy, sometimes I keep twiddling, and by the time I have the range set, I know it's off, because both ships have moved. And I have a hard time in getting good ranges with the stadimeter at longer ranges (forget about it at night), because it's hard to get a crisp view of that mast top.

At closer ranges, though, you can get a good range with the stadimeter, it's hard to miss it. Practice, using map updates to compare. In fact, you can play with stock to get a good idea of where the PK is aiming, looking at the attack map.


2. What range is optimal for firing? I thought I saw <1000
yards mentioned as optimal, but that means the torpedo running time is going to be under 1 minutes. Is that right?

I've been trying to get an early plot and then lay in wait submerged only to pop up at the last minute, take one last range reading and fire. unfortunately, because the range finder is so fiddly and because everything happens so damn fast under a few thousand yards (If I have the target plotted so they will cross my bow at 90 degrees 1000 yards in front of me, at a few thousand yards it seems as if they are coming straight at me!).

Any thoughts or advice? I never seemed to have this much of a problem in SH3. Oh, I'm playing realistic with only the map updates on so I can make sure my plots are accurate until I'm really comfortable with it. I'm also playing with TM, if it makes any difference.


And when you have a Task Force moving fast, and the escorts are thick, but you also have some really juicy targets, then it gets fun.

I think under 1000 yards works well. It gives targets less time to spot torpedo wakes, and any errors you make are not magnified.

[onnel]

This last outing I finally had some luck with my targetting...and they all dudded/exploded prematurely. boy, we don't have it easy early on!

Oh well, patience and perseverance shall b e rewarded and victory shall be ours!

Thanks so much for the reassurance. At least i know any failings lie squarely upon my own head and not my crew or tools!

[Steeltrap]

The ability to input all the factors is great from an absolute realism point of view (i.e. how did these things work in real life) but it's actually not so great with respect to how skippers actually worked.

If there were a way to have a 'plotting section', as was done historically, it would remove some of the fiddly stuff an allow you to concentrate on the 'general' solution gathering + tactical considerations.

Reading about it (O'Kane is a great source of describing the method used to track a target to the point of firing) you realise some of the things we do in manual firing were done by a combination of the scope observations, plotting team and the person manning the TDC. Having to do ALL of it yourself actually makes it more difficult than it should be, especially given that it's never possible to get absolute clarity in graphics to reflect reality.

As a case in point, the skipper would train the scope on the target and give a 'bearing: mark!' and/or 'range:mark!' and the assistant would read the results from the appropriate points on the scope - so the skipper didn't actually check the bearing or range or whatever, they used the scope to concentrate on the target and an assistant read the results from the displays on the scope. O'Kane sometimes gave an AoB by estimate, sometimes using the scope's visual markings against the known length of the ship, and sometimes left it to the plot/TDC, all depnding on which would be more accurate under the specific circumstances. He also got sound to do active range determinations, too, and checked those against the TDC/plot as a way of eliminating error.

This shows how difficult it is for the developers: even if you model 'how' things worked in reality, the way in which they were used varied. Very hard to do that properly in a sim. I'd love to see a 'fire control team' added, but how it would work etc (and how to make it work in the sim) would be a real challenge to sort out.

Cheers

[jazman]

The ability to input all the factors is great from an absolute realism point of view (i.e. how did these things work in real life) but it's actually not so great with respect to how skippers actually worked.


Excellent point, but I think a lot of players would complain if they couldn't do all the shooting work. It's part of the fun, considering the game denies us the fun of writing a full, detailed patrol report and dealing with the negative endorsements.

[Fincuan]

It would still be nice to be able to input the range manually under any conditions. Now the only way is via the range wheel, which is inaccrurate and doesn't go past 4000 meters.

[Shyzar]

I've been lining up the top masts, but the it still seems very jumpyand touchy...not at all accurate. Or am I expecting greater accuracy than is reasonable? How accurate should my range be to get hits at 1000 yards? Is it OK if my range estimation is off by 100 yards? What sort of margin of error should I aim for?

Maybe playing with the auto map updates is simply highlighting how imperfect the range estimation is and thus Ii feel like i'm doing worse than I am.

Thoughts?

From 2500 yards, I can get the range spot on. I play with map contacts as I just stared a week ago with Manual TDC.

And the margin of error changes from ship to ship. If the ship is really long, the margin of error is higher and vice versa.