Open source subsim

[DeepIron]

I wanted to test the waters a bit with some comments made on another thread concerning addtional add-ons without hijacking that thread: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=125518

My position is that it would be possible to produce an SH-style subsim using the Open Source philosophy and talent from a community such as we have. Instead of relying on a commercial product that can be modded, but relies on patches for the core to come from the developers, an Open Source solution could be created.

RockinRobin replied (abridged quote):
You will never see an open-source subsim of any remarkable quantity because the open-source process is chaotic. To produce quality over an extended length of time requires a focus only demonstrated by tight control, impartial economic criteria for what works (you can't make people buy), and a way to support those who work for the project. Excellence is not produced in your spare time. It cannot sustain itself for free. I would certainly disagree. Economic gain is not the only criteria for excellence. Nor is the open-source process necessarity a chaotic one. it all depends on your approach and dedication.

One of the best criteria for success is community. In order to drive and continue a project, of any nature, you must have dedication first and foremost. I can see, just from the number of modders that work on SH3/SH4 mods, that there is very strong support for bringing out the best in these sims. I would also venture that none of these creative people are receiving any form of monetary compensation for their work. Love of the genre and desire to improve upon an established model is the goal. I'm sure the recognition by a grateful SH community is appreciated, but I doubt that is the over-riding reason for their works.

Certainly, co-ordination and "top level" direction and control are necessary. Without them, any project can devolve into chaos and non-productivity.

Excellence shows itself whenever one has the desire and ambition, it's not constrained to any particular notion of time or compensation, IMO.

What is not economically feasible is not possible. Whether we agree or not, whether we like it or not, that is truth. Therefore, what works economically IS the most user-friendly plan.
I respect your opinion, but LOL! If success were predicated solely on economic success, we'd be in a sorry position indeed! I hate to think where LINUX and PYTHON would have been had their creators applied this rationale. This also would suggest that a product like Windows is the most economic solution due to it's "user-friendliness"? This is hardly the case in my 20 years of IT Administration...

[CCIP]

It's possible but it hasn't happened yet and there's inherent hurdles to it.

I am skeptical for the moment about an open-source platform surpassing the community development potential of mods for commercial games (i.e., I find that so far, modders for SHIII and IV have really thrived thanks to those games being solidly-developed bases for further work - no comparable open-source base exists yet, and developing one takes an amount of work that shouldn't be underestimated, the sort of work that moves inherently and exponentially slower than commercial development).

It may happen in the future. The tools are all there. The problem really boils down to a LOT of highly professional work that would need to be done, and need to be done for free. Realistically, a single person would never be able to get to the same level as SHIII/IV - too many different skills required. So you would need to have a fairly large, reliable, organized team, one that is willing to do hard work for free and over a very extended term, and deal with all the pressures that come with that kind of teamwork.

It can happen, but it'll only happen if not just the will, but the patience and the organization is there. It's easy to be enthusiastic about it without actually doing it for months and years. Some excellent open-source projects are already around - but none have yet produced a really complete result! Perhaps one day they will.

Right now however, I believe that mods for SHIV and SHIII are a much better investment of community efforts.

[U49]

I wanted to test the waters a bit with some comments made on another thread concerning addtional add-ons without hijacking that thread: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=125518

My position is that it would be possible to produce an SH-style subsim using the Open Source philosophy and talent from a community such as we have. Instead of relying on a commercial product that can be modded, but relies on patches for the core to come from the developers, an Open Source solution could be created.

RockinRobin replied (abridged quote):
You will never see an open-source subsim of any remarkable quantity because the open-source process is chaotic. To produce quality over an extended length of time requires a focus only demonstrated by tight control, impartial economic criteria for what works (you can't make people buy), and a way to support those who work for the project. Excellence is not produced in your spare time. It cannot sustain itself for free. I would certainly disagree. Economic gain is not the only criteria for excellence. Nor is the open-source process necessarity a chaotic one. it all depends on your approach and dedication.

One of the best criteria for success is community. In order to drive and continue a project, of any nature, you must have dedication first and foremost. I can see, just from the number of modders that work on SH3/SH4 mods, that there is very strong support for bringing out the best in these sims. I would also venture that none of these creative people are receiving any form of monetary compensation for their work. Love of the genre and desire to improve upon an established model is the goal. I'm sure the recognition by a grateful SH community is appreciated, but I doubt that is the over-riding reason for their works.

Certainly, co-ordination and "top level" direction and control are necessary. Without them, any project can devolve into chaos and non-productivity.

Excellence shows itself whenever one has the desire and ambition, it's not constrained to any particular notion of time or compensation, IMO.

What is not economically feasible is not possible. Whether we agree or not, whether we like it or not, that is truth. Therefore, what works economically IS the most user-friendly plan.
I respect your opinion, but LOL! If success were predicated solely on economic success, we'd be in a sorry position indeed! I hate to think where LINUX and PYTHON would have been had their creators applied this rationale. This also would suggest that a product like Windows is the most economic solution due to it's "user-friendliness"? This is hardly the case in my 20 years of IT Administration...

As long as game production is seen in the strict way of closed source, it will just be some avantgarde that create something.

In music industry we can see the first (? please correct me) uprising against the old fashoined "production companies". First impression is that is making more money for the artist than undersigning a contract.
But this is (as far as I know!) only getting rid of some unnecessary parasite in the value-chain. So creating a totally open source game will still be something different.

Please notice and remember for further reading:
____ALL___ games that I played in the last 8 years have been modded be volunteers from the community or by myself.
And we all have once or twice wondered what our modders could do with access to the code.
I am truly convinced that you could create even a complete business modell with a totally opensource game, even with giving the source or binaries available for download ( which is NOT necessary for free )
I will follow the development of the current radiohead album, which is given away with the idea "get it, listen, and pay as much as you think is ok. your choice."

[AG124]

What about Danger from the Deep?:hmm: The project has actually been underway for quite some time now, and has often been discussed on this forum.

http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/

[U49]

What about Danger from the Deep?:hmm: The project has actually been underway for quite some time now, and has often been discussed on this forum.

http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/

I understand that team still as "avantgarde".
And please, don't get me wrong: They are doing a GREAT job, and I admire their doing! :yep:

But I'm afraid that they still lack the support of more programmers and graphic/sound designers to create more...
The old open source idea is focused on code creation. But a good game needs all those other disciplines as well.

[DeepIron]

Realistically, a single person would never be able to get to the same level as SHIII/IV - too many different skills required. Very true. I started a SH4 type sim in OpenGL and C++ a couple of years ago as a hobby programming project. I soon realized that the rest of the prerequisite skills I needed were not in my repertoir... mostly graphics oriented. So, the code sits idle (actually, the DFTD project is really a better framework) and I've looked to modding SH4 and some other games.

But I still have the desire to see it through... I really admire game efforts like VegaStrike http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/ and Privateer Gemini Gold (built over the VegaStrike engine) as examples of what can be accomplished...

The old open source idea is focused on code creation. But a good game needs all those other disciplines as well. I see this as a 'natural' evolution in OS now. As was mentioned, the tools are now all available and no longer a hurdle to overcome.

What is needed are people who share the vision and can participate...

BTW, I'm off on the road for a few days to Florida so I'll catch up with you later on this...

[Silent_hunt]

Hi ppl, thx for all the efford to make this game..To the ppl that have done all the programming and graphix:yeah:. However for ppl saying ATI cards is no good!!:down: 1st. ATI is way better value when it comes to performance and price than Nvidia. Just because Linux is more Nvidia friendly does not mean ATI is bad.(The old AMD ver. Intel cpu story) 2nd All games in Windows works fine and when there is a problem, most of the time it gets solved by the game company. 3rd This story of it is ATI's problem that the game does not want to work sucks...I can remember the same was with Linux and winmodems...Linux ppl always put the blame on the "BAD" modem...it was actuly they that did'nt want to write proper drivers for these modems. then finally Conexant wrote drivers, but limited the speed, but if you BUY the driver from them, then it worked fullspeed. Yea the old money factor I guess!!!

Also the forum for "DangerDeep" does not exist anymore:cry: Have ppl just gave up on the work or what. That is the problem with all freeware, gets made halfway and then just abandened.

[SteamWake]

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh312/UlteriorModem/catq.jpg

[Dowly]

^^
This. :DL

Ow well, welcome aboard Silent_hunt. :salute:

[Shearwater]

My position is that it would be possible to produce an SH-style subsim using the Open Source philosophy and talent from a community such as we have. Instead of relying on a commercial product that can be modded, but relies on patches for the core to come from the developers, an Open Source solution could be created.

RockinRobin replied (abridged quote):
I would certainly disagree. Economic gain is not the only criteria for excellence. Nor is the open-source process necessarity a chaotic one. it all depends on your approach and dedication.
[...]
Certainly, co-ordination and "top level" direction and control are necessary. Without them, any project can devolve into chaos and non-productivity.
[...]
Excellence shows itself whenever one has the desire and ambition, it's not constrained to any particular notion of time or compensation, IMO.


I really thought this would be a thread about Danger from the Deep. Glad you brought it back to my memory :DL

I would go with RockinRobin here, at least in what he says about the management of open source projects. Many a great project has started with lots of enthusiasm, a host great ideas and really skilled people, only to be never heard of again after some years. That's why I often try to curb my own enthusiasm whenever I see a new project popping up.

Getting things finished is IMO the most difficult part of any project. If already commercially marketed games have to supply patch after patch after a premature release, it comes as no surprise to me that non-commercial projects often don't get finished at all. And I think that is really deplorable since most games nowadays are just so uncreative, sequel-ish and just bland (apart from the fact that I can't afford to play most of them since hardware requirements have skyrocketed over the past years). In any case, a breath of fresh air from independent people is never a bad thing :DL
Your comparison with the music industry has a point, but I'm not sure to what degree they are comparable. - It appears to me that making games is more complicated than making music, because it needs so many different talents coming together.

[fastbikkel]

There was a nuclear sub sim for linux some time ago, available from linux.org. Complete with the sonar room that one could operate.

I tried to find the link again, but its gone.

Maybe its gone completely, but im 100% positive it was there. I even played it back then for a day. But went back to Subcommand because of issues i forgot.

[PeriscopeDepth]

The problem with the open source approach to subsims is that it is already such a niche category IMO. It's a lot easier to get together a skilled team for a flight simulator or space combat type game simply because the genre is much broader, and because of that more people with the required skills are available to work on any open source efforts.

A lot of the indie subsim projects you see now consist of "teams" of 1. While I respect their efforts, I have to doubt that any of these will become a finished product. It is a HUGE effort to develop something like a 3D simulation from scratch.

PD