Promotions

[LordRipper]

Hi everyone hope all is well ! :)

I've got a few niggling questions that I can't seem to find the answer to. Could someone possibly shed some light ?

What are the requirements of each medal that the player is awarded ? - Is it based on tonnage ? I ask cos I'm real tired of getting Victory Crosses hehehe. Done 13 patrols on this career and got like 11 VC's and 2 medals of valor. In other patrols I got the sub service and patrol stars as well as VC's and MOV's. Except in this career I really maximise the use of my ammo and sink no less than 84,000 t on each patrol. (I don't yet play on full realism or hard difficulty as I'm new to subsims).

I have seen the experience values needed for crew promotions, however I'm wondering about when I get promoted. I have a few senior LT's who have achieved enough experience to get Lt.Cmdr (20,000 points) but they are now not getttin gany more exp. I know a Lt.Cmdr needs 25,000 to get to Cmdr which means if I earn exp at the same rate as my crew I shouold have over 20,000. The question is, is when I reach Cmdr, will I then be able to award Lt.Cmdr ranks to those Lt's ?

As the ranks listed go up to Admiral, what happens if/when u achieve a staff rank ? Do u get to coordinate multiple subs or is the game not that big ? hehehe

..and why don't u get a congrats message or something when u sink a Carrier or Battleship ? After all that's gonna really hurt the enemy ! I sank 2 BB's and a carrier amongst others in one patrol and no special recognition.

Thanks in advance :)

[SteamWake]

This is kind of a nebulous topic.

The 'medals' appear to be randomly generated with variables set by how much 'action' you saw or how much damage you recieved or how much tonnage you sank. Etc.

Likewise with promotions.

The medals are really just for 'immersion' I try to give the 'wounded' medals to whom were injured. I give the other 'fluff' medals in order of descending rank highest first then on down. Other than that the medals do nothing.

Promotions enhance a particular crew members stats a bit (fanatisim, endurance, etc.) in other words they can stay awake a bit longer and focus a bit better on their task.

The real 'key' thing is the qualifications such as 'torpedoman' or 'engines' these 'upgrades' have the biggest impact on your crews performance as indicated by the little green bar at the left of the 'comparment' screens. 4 qualified torpedoe men will load a torpedo much faster than those who are not 'qualified'. Qualified 'engine' guys will eek out a bit more speed and battery life.

Hope this helps.

SW

[LordRipper]

Yeah I got all that, kinda passed the stage of understanding crew management, just was wondering about the medals, but more importantly were the next points I made about the ranks. For me, 'immersion' is very important to keep me interested, and after 13 patrols sinking over 1.7 million tons, including carriers, Heavy Cruisers and BB's , and each patrol on one stock of ammo no refit, I would have thought I should be a Cmdr by now, - must be close, but if I can't evolve nor my crew any further I loose interest. Lowest rank on my boat now is one Senior Chief PO. I have Master CPO's that are now Ensigns etc. My top Lt's are ready for Lt.Cmdr hehe most of my crew are officers, so does anyone know the answer to my other questions ?

Cheers

Stu

[Go4It]

I quit givn promotion when I reach a realistic level, last 4 careers I ended up with all offices by the end of the game. One thing I encontered is if I try to hand out promotion or medals late in the game the game freezes an I have to manually reboot. So I have 'buot 20+ promotions an a slue of medals I can't hand out...

The game need to be more realistic with promotions an medals....

[rrmelend]

I quit givn promotion when I reach a realistic level, last 4 careers I ended up with all offices by the end of the game. One thing I encontered is if I try to hand out promotion or medals late in the game the game freezes an I have to manually reboot. So I have 'buot 20+ promotions an a slue of medals I can't hand out...

The game need to be more realistic with promotions an medals....

One thing you can try to have it be more realistic is if you have enough renown points than "buy" a whole new crew. This should give you a more "realistic" game experience because crews did not stay with the same sub for the entire war and you would constantly be having to train new srew members during the course of the war. Just a thought.

[amurph182]

Real crews were constantly in flux, with a good number of each crew making either their first or last patrol. Skippers generally didn't have much of a say in who came or went, although they could sometimes hang onto a guy or keep someone off the boat if they had the pull.

To simulate this, after each patrol I do the following. It might seem like a lot, but it really only takes me about 5 minutes:

award medals to the crew members that "deserve" them. (if we sank a bunch of sampans, then the gunners get medals. If we managed to survive serious damage, then I give them to the damage control guys, etc)

I get rid of a certain number of the crew. I don't have a set in stone %, but I do it based on rank. I generally replace about 10-20% of my sailors that have made more than 1 patrol with me. I choose them at random.

Then I move on to the PO's, and again I remove a given % of them based on how many patrols they've done. For example, I try not to have them do more than 5 patrols, but if a guy has done 4 and then got promoted to PO then I'll give him another patrol or two. If I have a whole bunch of PO's "eligible" for relief, then I'll pick a % based on the total number that I have, usually about 20%, and roll a die for each one to see who gets the axe. If I've got 10 PO's on the boat and they've all made 3 patrols, then I'll roll a die, go down the roster until I get to that number guy, and relieve him. repeat as necessary.

For Chiefs, I usually pick a guy who's going to be my COB. He's untouchable until he's made 3 patrols as COB. Then he gets relieved no matter what. I then promote my most experienced chief to COB, where he gets 3 patrols. As for the rest of the chiefs, I try and have at least one per compartment and get rid of 2 of them (minus the COB) after each patrol. I basically use a throw of the die to see which ones I let go. I then promote the most senior PO in each compartment to CPO.

I rarely promote officers. I relieve 2 after each patrol and bring in a guy that has the rank of the guy who left. Every now and then I won't relieve any officers, and sometimes I'll relieve 3, or even more after I've made a larger number of patrols (I figure if they're going to send me back to Mare Island for an overhaul at some point, then losing 4 officers at once isn't THAT unrealistic). The end result is that I get about 3-5 patrols per officer, after the first 2 guys get relieved after the first patrol.

then I give promotions to the crew that is left. I try to promote PO's to CPO to fill leadership roles first. I don't try to have a chief in each watch in a given compartment, but I don't limit it to 1. If I have a guy who's made a couple patrols in the first spot on the third watch in the bow torpedo room, and I can make him a chief, I will and then I'll move him to lead the first or second watch. Etc.

then I promote sailors so that they can get a specialty.

last I promote officers, if any are eligible and I have promotions left. Basically my ensigns start out as watch crew on the 2nd and third watch, with a LT heading the first watch, and then I put my j.g.'s in the 2nd and 3rd command room watch, again with a LT heading the first. Any other officers (IF I have any) will be spread around, either in the conning tower or engine room. If a guy gets a promotion, he moves to the appropriate spot. In real life, officers took on more and more amounts of responsibility as they were promoted and gained experience, so this simulates things pretty good.

Then I go out and bring in new crew members to replace the ones that left. I really try to use seaman as often as possible. The last two or three spots on each watch are usually new recruits or guys with 1 or two patrols. If I just can't fill an opening for a PO or CPO, I'll recruit one of them. Officers work the same way, if I have an opening for a LT but I can't fill it, I'll bring one in. But if I have a j.g that is close to promotion, I'll have him do the job and bring in a new j.g to replace him.

This way I end up with a capable crew, but they're never superhuman. It can be noticable...a relatively inexperience watch crew might not see a plane until it is too close, or I end up with slightly slower torp loading times (which can ruin a good submerged torp attack) or a gun crew gets horribly innaccurate. etc.But they're never bad, and sometimes incredibly good.

[jazman]

Real crews were constantly in flux, with a good number of each crew making either their first or last patrol. Skippers generally didn't have much of a say in who came or went, although they could sometimes hang onto a guy or keep someone off the boat if they had the pull.

To simulate this, after each patrol I do the following. It might seem like a lot, but it really only takes me about 5 minutes:

...

This way I end up with a capable crew, but they're never superhuman. It can be noticable...a relatively inexperience watch crew might not see a plane until it is too close, or I end up with slightly slower torp loading times (which can ruin a good submerged torp attack) or a gun crew gets horribly innaccurate. etc.But they're never bad, and sometimes incredibly good.

Nice job on that, I was looking for a thought-out way to rotate men out. Now I don't have to think it out.

Wahoo had a big turnover (especially losing O'Kane, Grider) and it had to have had an effect on her fighting trim.

[LordRipper]

Very detailed amurph :up: .

I take a completely different approach if not just as involved as u hehe. Before I start my first patrol I calculate the total stats of each crew member and note it down in their respective position. I also do this for the men available. I then spend all my starting renown (so far only used the 5000 setting ;) hehehe) on recruiting the best Officers to lead the teams that don't have one especially in the torp rooms. Also there are lots of Ensigns available for free and many of them are much better than existing green Seamen. whoever gets replaced by someone superior gets put in the free slots for damage control, making sure all free slots are filled before shipping out. I organise all the crew in their teams from highest to lowest ability, of course making sure than the right specialists are in the right compartments with a top Officer leading every team eventually, with sometime several Officers of descending rank (although they're all rapidly becoming equalised in rank as the 1st Lts cant go any further).

As I go on a few more patrols I dismiss the next lowest ability crew and replace them with more higher able officers and possible one or two really good CPO's that are now available and with the renown earned. I promote the highest able ones in order downward and award medals as appropriately as possible like u.

If u keep getting rid of guys at random u may give up some really good PO's for inferior ones which reduces the teams efficiency. That's why I calculate them all including all the ones available for transfer so that I end up with the all the very best crew after a few patrols. This in turn gives me a very tough and able crew.

I hear what u guys say about constant crew movement, but I like to think of us evolving as a crew together, and most of the best guys with me from the start and ones that came on board early in the war don't wanna be on any other boat cos ours is always the best in terms of class of boat and consistent tonnage sunk. While at the same time there is still quite a lot of movement early in the war, but less later on, which can also be reflected in the fact that the Americans were winning as time went on and less people died etc so didn't need replacement. I'd also imagine a skipper always on the top of the list gets the luxury of deciding exactly who he wants on his boat ;)

BTW anyone yet know the answer to my question about my promotion and my subsequent ablility to promote my ready 1st Lts to Lt.Cmdrs ? I've read some people have reached Captain, so there must be someone who knows ! I've read somewhere also that one you break into the Admiral ranks, you actually have to spend renown to go on patrols and not sit behind a desk. Has anyone got that far ? Any more details on being an Admiral ?

Regards

Stu.

[jazman]

If u keep getting rid of guys at random u may give up some really good PO's for inferior ones which reduces the teams efficiency. That's why I calculate them all including all the ones available for transfer so that I end up with the all the very best crew after a few patrols. This in turn gives me a very tough and able crew.


Is there an Über Fleet Boat mod around? I think I have a customer! ;)

[LordRipper]

Nah I wanna keep it somewhat realistic hehehe. I might at a later date try some mods but for now I wanna stay on vanilla sh4 - waiting for patch tho like everyone else ;)

Would be a nice addition if they made 2 seperate slots on the crew management page for Chief of the Boat and the XO. But actually the one thing I'm really looking forward to is faster damn loading times :yep:

[amurph182]

If u keep getting rid of guys at random u may give up some really good PO's for inferior ones which reduces the teams efficiency. That's why I calculate them all including all the ones available for transfer so that I end up with the all the very best crew after a few patrols. This in turn gives me a very tough and able crew.


that's actually the entire reason that I do what I do. I don't WANT a crew that is "all the very best" as it's unrealistic. Not that I'm a hardcore realism junkie, but looking at my crew and having officers leading every watch in every compartment just kills the immersion factor for me.

In the real Silent Service, crew came and went with little regard for the desires of the captain. It was the needs of the navy that mattered most, and they needed experienced men for new boats, or to replace more senior men on other boats. That really good PO that I give up might be leaving to be a CPO on a new construction, or the ensign that I have on my bridge could be leaving to get promoted to jg and become the engineering officer on a boat that needs a good man. And the fresh recruits and newly promoted PO's that come into my boat are getting exactly what they, and the navy, need: experience at sea.

I just look at it from a different perspective. In the game, I'd rather get sunk because I lost some good guys and their experience, than go romping around the pacific with my uber-crew. Even getting rid of so many people, my crew is never less than what I would consider a solid, experienced crew. I just play it from a different point of view, I guess.

[sparkomatic]

I agree, I also use a somewhat "random" dismissal approach to "simulate" rotations and re-assignments. Like in the real military, you never get a complete a-team, and if you do, it will be only a second before someone finds out and starts grabbing them from you...true story

[Joe S]

After my last mission I tried to hand out promotions and nothing would stick. what is the trick? I tried dragging the promotion to the detail box under the crew pictures and also over the crew position on the sub diagram. Is there a trick to this? Also have the same problem with medals. Thanks! Joe S

[Tigrone]

I'm not sure this is still valid, and it's from before they took out the US medals, but I think it is still the base criteria of the game for giving awards:

elanaiba posted that:

Purple Heart: over 40% medium damage taken by the sub

Bronze Star: 3 ships sunk in one patrol or a DD, CL or larger combatant ship not worthy of a higher award

Silver Star: 6 ships sunk in one patrol or a CVE or CA sunk

Navy Cross: 8 ships sunk in one patrol or a BB or CV

MOH: 6 ships sunk in the same engagement (checks for 24 h timeframe) or 2 of the following BB, CV, CVE

[tomoose]

Given all the comments above it sounds like a "SHIV Commander" program would be a big bonus and add to the crew management aspect of the game. Too bad the author of the excellent SHIII Commander has been put off by too much negative feedback. Hopefully someone can still persuade him to give it a go.
:hmm:

[Galanti]

Some great ideas in here. I do more or less than the same as amurph and lord ripper. To some, it may seem like a bit of chore while in port, but really, what else is there to do in port? I usually grab a cup of coffee and immerse myself in the spellbinding role of Chief of Naval Personnel, BuPers.

The other thing I do is effectivley castrate the starting crew by hacking the nuts off the crew upc file. I set all level 1&2 specialties to NULL and reduce the 3's to 1's. Then I use find&replace technology to make all skills a third of what they were before.

This way, I'm starting out without a completely rookie crew, and it makes promotions and awarding quals more rewarding. The way the stock crew is setup, I find they're usually maxing out the compartment effeciency bar after 2-3 patrols. What's the point of including a detailed personnel management model if this is the case?

[theluckyone17]

Stupid question, but does SH4 keep track of how many patrols each crewmember's been along for?

I specifically remember SH3 noting the number of patrols in each crewmember's "profile", but SH4... either I'm blind, or it ain't there.

Or do y'all keep track manually?

[CameramanDavid]

Lowest rank on my boat now is one Senior Chief PO. I have Master CPO's that are now Ensigns etc. My top Lt's are ready for Lt.Cmdr hehe most of my crew are officers, so does anyone know the answer to my other questions ?

Cheers

Stu

I just got the game as a gift, and will (pardon the pun) dive in to it as soon as I finish rebuilding my computer...

The ranks of Senior Chief Petty Officer and Master Chief Petty Officer did not exist until 1958, and thus NOT present in WWII. Is this a historical glitch in the game?

David Rosner
USN Nuclear Waste Machinist's Mate (1984-1987)

[groomsie]

amurph182 (or anyone), I liked what you had on rotations of crew off the boat, limiting patrols the crew have with you, etc... I do have some questions though. In general, how do you track the crewmembers and number of patrols they have done with you? Seems it would lend itself to a spreadsheet rather well if you could find a table of data with info on the crew. Does this perhaps exisit in the stored files, where you could go in and retrieve it and then "slice and dice" it to track things like experience, areas of specialization, number of patorls, assignments, etc.

Does anyone do this, or alternatively have a suggested method for tracking (other than manually keeping notes on each crew member, which would remind me too much of my own time as a divo while in the Navy...).

Just finished my 1st patrol but didn't realize I could add crew so was short...always a continuing process to learn & refine I'm sure. Also just successfully installed my first mods last night, and now my first post here. Lots of good information guys, so thanks in advance for any responses or clarifications to this question.

[Manjushaka]

Hi everyone hope all is well ! :)

I've got a few niggling questions that I can't seem to find the answer to. Could someone possibly shed some light ?

What are the requirements of each medal that the player is awarded ? - Is it based on tonnage ? I ask cos I'm real tired of getting Victory Crosses hehehe. Done 13 patrols on this career and got like 11 VC's and 2 medals of valor. In other patrols I got the sub service and patrol stars as well as VC's and MOV's. Except in this career I really maximise the use of my ammo and sink no less than 84,000 t on each patrol. (I don't yet play on full realism or hard difficulty as I'm new to subsims).

I have seen the experience values needed for crew promotions, however I'm wondering about when I get promoted. I have a few senior LT's who have achieved enough experience to get Lt.Cmdr (20,000 points) but they are now not getttin gany more exp. I know a Lt.Cmdr needs 25,000 to get to Cmdr which means if I earn exp at the same rate as my crew I shouold have over 20,000. The question is, is when I reach Cmdr, will I then be able to award Lt.Cmdr ranks to those Lt's ?

As the ranks listed go up to Admiral, what happens if/when u achieve a staff rank ? Do u get to coordinate multiple subs or is the game not that big ? hehehe

..and why don't u get a congrats message or something when u sink a Carrier or Battleship ? After all that's gonna really hurt the enemy ! I sank 2 BB's and a carrier amongst others in one patrol and no special recognition.

Thanks in advance :)

Ha...when I first got the Victory Cross I was thrilled, I thought it was the Victoria Cross.:rotfl:
It was very possible, as I wrecked havoc on two convoys headed for Singapore. But then, :damn: