Idea concerning further SH series

[tonibamestre]

Hello Commanders,I would like to know if you agree with what could be a new way
to move around the sub in a theorical forward SH editions.So,have you seen Ship Simulator 2008 from VStep? You can turn around,move sidewards and walk ahead and back travelling this way every inch of the station you are in,and not just that,also you are able to climb and descend stairs in order to reach several compartments and decks.
This way,would be interesting that Ubi developers could have this system into consideration to give simmers the best inmersive atmosphere aboard its further units.Also more compartments and stations at high detail could be done.
Lets pray to have a future SH5 close like that.

Let me know your opinnion guys.

[raifg]

I share your idea
Would your prefer in a nuke sub or WWII sub ?

[Peto]

I can understand your desire for this. It would be a nice feature to be able to check out the boat and crew. Still--I would vote against it. The reason is simple: Modelling everything in such detail would take a tremendous amount of effort and could easily detract from the meat & potatos of the sim.

I would rather see that effort put into further AI enhancement/more realism options/more dynamic modelling of the boats (each one would be a little unique--crush depth varies etc). There is much that could be done with escort AI resulting in more of a challenge to escape a counter-attack.

Imagine getting a new command and not knowing exactly what to expect from the boat. How deep will it go? (They all had the same theoretical crush depth but in actuality--they were all different). Boat A takes 3 seconds longer to dive than Boat B and Boat C just can't keep it's engines running (HOR Diesels).

I could go on for pages but I think I've made my point. Not that my point is any more valid than your's!!! It's merely my opinion (And everyone around here has one ;))!

Peto

[mrbeast]

I can understand your desire for this. It would be a nice feature to be able to check out the boat and crew. Still--I would vote against it. The reason is simple: Modelling everything in such detail would take a tremendous amount of effort and could easily detract from the meat & potatos of the sim.

I would rather see that effort put into further AI enhancement/more realism options/more dynamic modelling of the boats (each one would be a little unique--crush depth varies etc). There is much that could be done with escort AI resulting in more of a challenge to escape a counter-attack.

Imagine getting a new command and not knowing exactly what to expect from the boat. How deep will it go? (They all had the same theoretical crush depth but in actuality--they were all different). Boat A takes 3 seconds longer to dive than Boat B and Boat C just can't keep it's engines running (HOR Diesels).

I could go on for pages but I think I've made my point. Not that my point is any more valid than your's!!! It's merely my opinion (And everyone around here has one ;))!

Peto

Think I'd have to agree with you there Peto. A fully rendered 3D interior for your sub would be cool but it would simply be eye candy and notmuch more. I'd rather see the time and energy go on better external graphics, more and better ship models, better campaign, better AI, etc etc.

Basically I would place quite a few things in the 'To Do' list ahead of creating an entire submarine interior.:yep:

Besides when are you going to see all of it?

[Angus89]

My 2 cents is for a truly dynamic alternate history from where sh4 leaves off. What if Germany didnt lose in Russia. what if Russia stayed neutral or even axis. What if England was forced to go Vichy. What if u-boats did move into the Pacific with support? Not realistic in a 100% vain, but many possibilities for a truly dynamic campaign. Let me be an influence on history. Just a thought. Till then, Lurker is sending my s-boat on another mission to some deserted piece of ocean where I can destroy sampans till my gun barrel melts.:up:

[raifg]

Question of point of view
I understand that modeling the interior would be a full time job, but if you consider that the main goal of the game is to simulate the life in a sub, it is a useful work.
It depend on your interest:
- a navy battle => the develoment team would have to pay attention at the exterior skin of the boat and the behaviour of ships in all the sea conditions...
- a simulation of life (like Sim's for instance), where your are the chief of the crew and not the captain (I mean You are passive in the battle, You only execute the oders of your captain, quicly and with efficiency) paying attention at the interior is a necessity...

I think the second point of view have to be expanded because I find that the managament of the crew in SH4 is too simple and has a small interaction with the rest of the game

[mrbeast]

Question of point of view
I understand that modeling the interior would be a full time job, but if you consider that the main goal of the game is to simulate the life in a sub, it is a useful work.
It depend on your interest:
- a navy battle => the develoment team would have to pay attention at the exterior skin of the boat and the behaviour of ships in all the sea conditions...
- a simulation of life (like Sim's for instance), where your are the chief of the crew and not the captain (I mean You are passive in the battle, You only execute the oders of your captain, quicly and with efficiency) paying attention at the interior is a necessity...

I think the second point of view have to be expanded because I find that the managament of the crew in SH4 is too simple and has a small interaction with the rest of the game

My point of view is the opposite.:D

Adding a more complex crew management system a la SH3 is a destraction from the game. SH4 is a naval combat simulation not just a maritime simulation like some the civilian ship simulators out there. IMO therefore, its about hunting down and destroying the enemy not fiddling about endlessly moving crew members from one compartement to the next because they feel tired etc.

I think SH4 got the balance just right. The more complex crew management is there if you want to mess about with it but if you don't you can leave the crew to do their thing and they don't stand an endless watch in the engine room until they pass out from fatigue. The rotating watch system has I think a very authentic feel to it.

The fact is that very complex resource management soon becomes a chore and starts to dominate rather than adding immersion. It can very easily become boring and is not really very realistic as you take the role of captain and in RL the skipper would have little to do with the day to day running of the crew and boat.

Thats another reason why a fully rendered hull interior is a little redundant. As the skipper you would probably alternate from your stateroom to the wardroom to the control room to the conning tower and bridge and back again (maybe the head once a day:roll:) , seeing little of the rest of the sub unless you were conducting an inspection or their was a problem somewhere in the boat. After an hour or so of play who's going to bother touring the sub on an inspection of the boat? I have a feeling that the novelty of a go anywhere interior would wear off pretty quickly.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be cool and I think that one or two areas of the boat could be modelled such as the captains quarters for instance. As I posted earlier I'd swap a fully modelled interior of the sub for twice the number of ships currently included and improvements to the AI, campaign etc.

PS Who wants to play as the Chief and who wants to play as the Skipper? I know what rank I would rather play as! ;)

[Torplexed]

I've never understood the desire to see the entire interior of the sub modeled either. It would be interesting from a reference point of view, but I'd probably never visit them while on patrol. What would compell me to visit the pump room...or the manuvering room, or the ship's galley? Am I gonna pretend there is actual chow there? Are the crew's canned animation loops gonna be more interesting elsewhere in the ship?

I get the feeling that some people are more interested in some virtual shipboard social interaction world than in history-based submarine warfare. :-? A game that has to make a profit can really only concentrate on doing one of those subjects well.

[DeepSix]

Not interested in having access to every compartment either - although a "ward room" with an interactive game of bridge or chess would sure be a nice way to get more out of playing at 1:1 time. Not exactly ShipSim '08 but might add something to the atmosphere but without the distraction or dead ends. That is, those who would not use it would also probably not be bothered by having it around, either. Somebody suggested this idea way back when SH4 was in the planning; I still like it.

[tonibamestre]

Well,dont tell me that you are not interested on a state of the art submarine simulator.The only thing developers need is time to build it,they can spend the next 3 or 4 years developing a new amazing sub project with lots new items implemented.If not,have a look at what are doing XSI devs with the still on building stage Fighter Ops.This my friends is going to be the Top of modern fighter simulators,improving and expanding day by day with renewed technology and addons.Even,when the right time arrives it has been told that a Navy Ops is going to be released,and from here I would like from all modern warfare simmers to join our voices a make a little push to see if XSI devs brings us naval warfare to this great project aswell,implementing detailed and full operative sub and surface platforms to interact with the air element.

[John Channing]

Well,dont tell me that you are not interested on a state of the art submarine simulator.The only thing developers need is time to build it,they can spend the next 3 or 4 years developing a new amazing sub project with lots new items implemented.If not,have a look at what are doing XSI devs with the still on building stage Fighter Ops.This my friends is going to be the Top of modern fighter simulators,improving and expanding day by day with renewed technology and addons.Even,when the right time arrives it has been told that a Navy Ops is going to be released,and from here I would like from all modern warfare simmers to join our voices a make a little push to see if XSI devs brings us naval warfare to this great project aswell,implementing detailed and full operative sub and surface platforms to interact with the air element.

The difference, of course, is that Fighter Ops, which seems to have been in development for almost 4 years, is little more than some models and skins while UbiSoft has turned out 2 Naval Sims in that time (and soon to be a third).

I prefer games I can play and not just read about.

JCC

[SteminDemon13]

I say the SH series should remain historical. If you want alternate history that is what enigma is for.

[mrbeast]

I say the SH series should remain historical. If you want alternate history that is what enigma is for.

Yep and look how 'good' enigma was.....think installed it played it and uinstalled it all in the space of about 30 minutes! :roll:

Never to see the light of day again! :yep:

[SteminDemon13]

I say the SH series should remain historical. If you want alternate history that is what enigma is for.

Yep and look how 'good' enigma was.....think installed it played it and uinstalled it all in the space of about 30 minutes! :roll:

Never to see the light of day again! :yep:

:rotfl: They tried though, I too have played it and have not yearned to play it since. I am going to BK for Thanksgiving and my copy of destroyer command is there. I've been itching to play that game for a while now. One good game (once the CD key issue is solved by tech support and patched) that I do play is Superpower 2. It like SH4 had it's issues in the begining, but after it everything it turned out to be a fairly interesting game.

[mrbeast]

I say the SH series should remain historical. If you want alternate history that is what enigma is for.

Yep and look how 'good' enigma was.....think installed it played it and uinstalled it all in the space of about 30 minutes! :roll:

Never to see the light of day again! :yep:

:rotfl: They tried though, I too have played it and have not yearned to play it since. I am going to BK for Thanksgiving and my copy of destroyer command is there. I've been itching to play that game for a while now. One good game (once the CD key issue is solved by tech support and patched) that I do play is Superpower 2. It like SH4 had it's issues in the begining, but after it everything it turned out to be a fairly interesting game.

For sure marks for effort but the final product was very much on the forgetable side unfortunately. :hmm:

[ReallyDedPoet]

To be honest I am having to much fun playing SH4 to think about the future. With 1.4 coming, the add-on and mods, there will be more than enough game going forward.


RDP

[raifg]

Question of point of view
I understand that modeling the interior would be a full time job, but if you consider that the main goal of the game is to simulate the life in a sub, it is a useful work.
It depend on your interest:
- a navy battle => the develoment team would have to pay attention at the exterior skin of the boat and the behaviour of ships in all the sea conditions...
- a simulation of life (like Sim's for instance), where your are the chief of the crew and not the captain (I mean You are passive in the battle, You only execute the oders of your captain, quicly and with efficiency) paying attention at the interior is a necessity...

I think the second point of view have to be expanded because I find that the managament of the crew in SH4 is too simple and has a small interaction with the rest of the game

My point of view is the opposite.:D

Adding a more complex crew management system a la SH3 is a destraction from the game. SH4 is a naval combat simulation not just a maritime simulation like some the civilian ship simulators out there. IMO therefore, its about hunting down and destroying the enemy not fiddling about endlessly moving crew members from one compartement to the next because they feel tired etc.

I think SH4 got the balance just right. The more complex crew management is there if you want to mess about with it but if you don't you can leave the crew to do their thing and they don't stand an endless watch in the engine room until they pass out from fatigue. The rotating watch system has I think a very authentic feel to it.

The fact is that very complex resource management soon becomes a chore and starts to dominate rather than adding immersion. It can very easily become boring and is not really very realistic as you take the role of captain and in RL the skipper would have little to do with the day to day running of the crew and boat.

Thats another reason why a fully rendered hull interior is a little redundant. As the skipper you would probably alternate from your stateroom to the wardroom to the control room to the conning tower and bridge and back again (maybe the head once a day:roll:) , seeing little of the rest of the sub unless you were conducting an inspection or their was a problem somewhere in the boat. After an hour or so of play who's going to bother touring the sub on an inspection of the boat? I have a feeling that the novelty of a go anywhere interior would wear off pretty quickly.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be cool and I think that one or two areas of the boat could be modelled such as the captains quarters for instance. As I posted earlier I'd swap a fully modelled interior of the sub for twice the number of ships currently included and improvements to the AI, campaign etc.

PS Who wants to play as the Chief and who wants to play as the Skipper? I know what rank I would rather play as! ;)

OK
I understand your point of view. The SH series are based on naval combat. So I understand easily than you don't want to have a simulation of crew or a stuff like that.
Maybe this kind of simulation could start a new game for another public, but I guess It could be very interesting, with situations where you can train your crew or part of this one.
And If Ubi or another one wants me ideas or my contribution to test this kind of game I am 200% open :D

On the other hand, I like the game of naval combat too. I think that SH4 is one of the best game on the market. The only criticism I make, is the management of the crew. When you are playing a campaign, the interaction of your management and your performance is too small. Understand me, I have taken a long time to choose the appropriate guy for each position in the sub; I have waited their promotion and their medals and after all I am not able to find a difference between the crew I got at the beginning of my campaign and now (all my guys are egal or higher than Chief Petty Officer ). Second thing, why a guy staying quitely (in the rapair team) in the sub obtain as much experience as another one who has sunk 10 planes. It's not fair don't you think ?

So in conclusion, my wish for the next opus of SH = a real interaction of the crew on the global performance of the sub

PS: it doesn't matter to play as Chief if you enjoy your game:D

[DeepSix]

Given a choice, I'd rather have greater control over how many engines I have for propulsion and how many for recharge, or the ability to steer with the screws, than to have more eye candy.

2 cents.

[Sniper31]

Given a choice, I'd rather have greater control over how many engines I have for propulsion and how many for recharge, or the ability to steer with the screws, than to have more eye candy.

2 cents.

I have to agree with the above view as well...the ability for more in depth control and reality is a much more agreeable idea for me.

[captiandon]

I would rather keep it WW2 but have all sides in it. Be able to choose from German American or Japanese. Be able to run in the Atlantic as the Germans or in the pacific as eather American or Japanese. Would also Like if we could command eather Sub or Surface ships. Would be the same but better grapics. The only reason I bought SH4 was that it was based on histroy. I dont buy games that play fantacy. If you want fanticy why not play the sims or Halo. I want somethng that really took place.

[Doolan]

I prefer WWII to modern setting (more of an art than a science). As for improvements, I am all for focusing on functional aspects. I agree that accurate models of the sub's interiors are very important to a simulation (it's immersion, not just eye candy), but there are things I would like to see first.

My ideal SH5 would not be SH at all, but Destroyer Command with the SH4 engine and of course compatible with SH4 for multiplayer. It would be developed as an expansion instead of as a separate title, and its installation would add fixes and features to standard SH4 to bring it up to par with the new game (improved AI, individual screw control, stuff like that).

The career mode would include missions such as patroling harbors and straits, rescuing sailors from sinking ships (this one radioed when needed much like task force interceptions), convoy escorts, task force escorts, etc. The game would focus on surface naval battles much more than SH4 currently does, so you would actually see task forces engaging each other often and would be able to participate in the battle fully.

I believe this kind of new scope on the game would do a lot more to the experience than just doing the Pacific or the Atlantic all over again with better graphics and a couple of tweaks.

EDIT: I should add that what would rock my world would be putting all of the above in the Atlantic. I'm dying to command a Flower corvette in an Atlantic convoy escort! :D

[SteminDemon13]

I highly agree that the next one should be surface ship based and compatible with SH4. Not just tin cans, but everything, even a carrier (ordering launches, recovery, etc). Shore bombardment, ship to ship battles and the likes. What would make it interesting is to have stations in multiplayer. Helm, Boiler/Engine Room, CIC, Turrets/Mounts etc. and have the option in single player to check which stations will be auto, and which will be able to be manupulated by the player. This way in multiplayer it would be like a crew, with people manning different stations to make the whole ship come to life. That is simulation my friends.
I have had a great deal of fun with the SH2/DC interop and roger wilco made it even better. A roger wilco like thing for multiplayer would be great so you would be able to have comms with your gun crew, Engine room crew, etc.

[tonibamestre]

Yes,that would be cool also.A Surface Force addon with seven or eight ship classes from where to choose ( corvettes,destroyers,cruisers,battleships and fleet carriers ),with their 3D bridges and letting the player to control all its stations and systems including fighter-bomber launch and recovery from the CVs.
I agree absolutely with the previous post !!

:up: :up: :up:

[Winston Caine]

I would rather keep it WW2 but have all sides in it. Be able to choose from German American or Japanese. Be able to run in the Atlantic as the Germans or in the pacific as eather American or Japanese. Would also Like if we could command eather Sub or Surface ships. Would be the same but better grapics. The only reason I bought SH4 was that it was based on histroy. I dont buy that play fantacy. If you want fanticy why not play the sims or Halo. I want somethng that really took place.

I agree, also add up British submarines (hunting for U-boots, I think sub to sub combat is something SH4 lacks. Unless you feel like hunting for Midgets)

[difool2]

Obvious question: why have we never had any significant surface ship simulators? Yeah you have 3rd-person tactical naval games like Fighting Steel and such, but no hardcore sims which have you on the bridge of your 3D battleship, having to manage your crew and systems and such while the shells scream in. Have a ship designing program in there too and it's a swabbie's wet dream...

[Sailor Steve]

Obvious question: why have we never had any significant surface ship simulators? Yeah you have 3rd-person tactical naval games like Fighting Steel and such, but no hardcore sims which have you on the bridge of your 3D battleship, having to manage your crew and systems and such while the shells scream in. Have a ship designing program in there too and it's a swabbie's wet dream...
You've never played Destroyer Command? There were some pretty cool battleship mods for it, and you could chase U-boats in multiplay against SH2.

[Winston Caine]

Considering time of the hypotetical SH5, I'd keep it in WW2. What are the alternatives? The Cold War? I don't know, a game where you wouldn't fire a single torpedo (without provoking an international incident and starting a global thermonuclear war) but just patrol all the time is kinda...hell, boring.:|\\

[Iron Budokan]

I can understand your desire for this. It would be a nice feature to be able to check out the boat and crew. Still--I would vote against it. The reason is simple: Modelling everything in such detail would take a tremendous amount of effort and could easily detract from the meat & potatos of the sim.

I would rather see that effort put into further AI enhancement/more realism options/more dynamic modelling of the boats (each one would be a little unique--crush depth varies etc). There is much that could be done with escort AI resulting in more of a challenge to escape a counter-attack.

Imagine getting a new command and not knowing exactly what to expect from the boat. How deep will it go? (They all had the same theoretical crush depth but in actuality--they were all different). Boat A takes 3 seconds longer to dive than Boat B and Boat C just can't keep it's engines running (HOR Diesels).

I could go on for pages but I think I've made my point. Not that my point is any more valid than your's!!! It's merely my opinion (And everyone around here has one ;))!

Peto

I like the way you think....:hmm:

[Iron Budokan]

Obvious question: why have we never had any significant surface ship simulators? Yeah you have 3rd-person tactical naval games like Fighting Steel and such, but no hardcore sims which have you on the bridge of your 3D battleship, having to manage your crew and systems and such while the shells scream in. Have a ship designing program in there too and it's a swabbie's wet dream...

I would really like this, too, but not as a DC game but more of a Sh3/4 sim where you are captain of one ship. Though, to be fair to the DC gamers, I suspect it would be only right to move up and ultimately control a fleet.

But the activity of being one captain on a single destroyer fighting the Atlantic and the U-boats, not to mention the horrific (and historical) set piece battles you could be involved in, with today's 3d rendering capabilities...wow. I would really like this a lot.:hmm:

[Iron Budokan]

I guess historically a sub skipper never went into other compartments, though as a gamer playing a sub skipper I certainly would. I think it would be cool. So, yeah, more compartments for me; I would enjoy that immensely.:yep:

[Winston Caine]

I'd make this walking through the sub a part of the Museum section. That would make far more sense.

[Delareon]

Why no modern Boats?
Because the SH WWII Series is over i think.
I dont want another part of the SH Series just to have another part of the Series.
I want something new.
From the latest addon u get some features that are not historical correct like XXI in the pacific and on call Airsupport for Subs.....

Why not a modern Simulation? Where u have to move really silently.
U dont have only fictional conflict or u never can shoot.
The Falkland War would be a possible scenario or some Middle-east scenarios.

But i dont think that i will buy another SH Game if it is just the same game on another scenario with a little bit improved graphics.

hope you will understand my bad english ;)

[mrbeast]

I'd make this walking through the sub a part of the Museum section. That would make far more sense.

IIRC Aces of the deep and DC had something similar. I think Destroyer Command there was a section with internal 360 deg views of a real Fletcher class DD.

[scrag]

I posted on this before - I have been riding Fast Attacks all of my career and so far ALL the "SIMS" are pretty much crap. Too much guess work (by necessity) but otherwise it is pretty much a bunch of guys reading Janes and blowing stuff out of there butts and calling it a game. Sorry but stick with what you know - ie WWII or WWI Sims. BTW there was a Battleship game called Great Naval Battles. I agee a good old fashion slug fest with SH IV level graphics would be really cool. Good Luck though as it like these SIMS have a very limited target group - I would leave the carriers off unless you like to launch planes and recover planes otherwise it becomes a strategic sim and misses the first person aspect of SHIII and SHIV.:arrgh!:

[John Channing]

I posted on this before - I have been riding Fast Attacks all of my career and so far ALL the "SIMS" are pretty much crap. Too much guess work (by necessity) but otherwise it is pretty much a bunch of guys reading Janes and blowing stuff out of there butts and calling it a game. Sorry but stick with what you know - ie WWII or WWI Sims. BTW there was a Battleship game called Great Naval Battles. I agee a good old fashion slug fest with SH IV level graphics would be really cool. Good Luck though as it like these SIMS have a very limited target group - I would leave the carriers off unless you like to launch planes and recover planes otherwise it becomes a strategic sim and misses the first person aspect of SHIII and SHIV.:arrgh!:

While I would not for a moment question your credentials you might want to have a look at the background of a company called Sonalysts and what they have done and still do do for the US Navy in addition to game development.

http://www.sonalysts.com/training/case_studies/index.html

If you are still on the boats it is likely that some of the software that you trained on was developed by them.

There is a big difference between what they can put out, and are allowed to put out to the public.

Please do not call the efforts of hard working, dedicated people crap. It is disrespectful and insulting.

JCC

[Sailor Steve]

Why no modern Boats?
Because the SH WWII Series is over i think.
I dont want another part of the SH Series just to have another part of the Series.
I want something new.;)
I would agree up to a point. If a new sim is released based on current technology, then you're right; a new WW2 variant (excepting surface ships or other nation's subs as an add-on) would be silly.

When, however, it's possible to create a new sim as far advanced as SH4 is over SH1, then it's time to start all over again, and an ever better WW2 sim is welcome again.