AGP owners- Interesting for SH4

[swdw]

Hey AGP users, just found this article that ATi will be releasing the HD3850 in AGP!
http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/11/06/amd-set-capture-100-agp-market

Next, for those wondering about upgrading to a less expensive card- stay tuned. I decided to upgrade my old system and use it for playing HD and Blu-ray movies on our TV (once BR drives drop). The MB uses AGP so I needed a AGP card that could decode h.264

In this pursuit I bought a HD2400 and took it back for an HD2600. In another couple of days I'll post a review here on the useability / feasability of this option and what I'm learning. Guess you already can figure out the verdict on the 2400 ;)

Anyway- looks like things are looking up for AGP users with fast enough CPU's.

Sorry for the delay, here goes:
Test systems:

Both running WinXP Sp2 32bit version with all the latest updates and AMD 32bit patch for 64 bit processors

Catalyst 7.10 for the x1950, and AGP ( AGP numbers are confusing, they are also called the 8.4 drivers and were released Nov 4th). On a side note, the card came with 7.7 drivers and upgrading to the lates gave almost a 30% increase in framerates

AGP
ECS MB
Sempron 3300+
1.5 GB DDR400
CT8780 based soundcard
ATi HD2600 Pro 512MB AGP card Agp 3.0 8x
ATA100 HD

Comparing it to
PCI-e
ABit MB
Athlon 64 x2 3800+
2GB DDR2 800
on board sound ( surprisingly, I tried a PCi sound card and it made no difference in performance, unusual for onboard soound to work this well)
ATi x1950 Pro 512MB
SATA300 HD

A note on the 2 systems. Overclocking was removed to give stock umbers as there are no utilities capable of overclocking the 2600 yet. The drivers/card are just way too new.

There are XT and XT OC versions of the HD 2600.

Test missions:
Submarine school- torpedo attack
Ambush at Palawan Passage
Sailing out of Pearl at the start of a career

SH4 settings:
All settings on except for post processing. All sliders maxxed except LOD size set at 3/4
1280X 1024 32bit 70hz
Tested Stock and with all new ROW releases including sound mod.

Keep in mind that the AGP system has slightly less memory and the memory bus is half the clock speed of the PCI-e system.

In the school mission, the external view was positioned on the cruiser and the lead ship with as much water in the screen as possible to lower the frame rate. Periscope view was on the cruiser.

For the Ambush mission I switched to the external camera and positioned it on the Japanese fleet. The camera was then moved to get as many ships as possible into the screen. Several views were tried to get the LOWEST framerate I could achieve. This usually occured with the camera fixed on the Yamato. The avg value is with only a couple of ships in the view.

For the Pearl mission the outside view was positioned to show as much of Ford Island and battleship row behind the boat as possible.

Stock:

School
outside view- lowest value
AGP-25 fps
PCI-e 30 fps

Periscope view of cruiser- lowest value
AGP- 35 fps
PCI-e 41 fps

Ambush
outside view
AGP- lowest- 16fps, average 20 fps
PCI-e lowest- 20fps, avg 25 fps

Periscope view
AGP- lowest 23fps
PCI-e lowest 36fps

Pearl
AGP- lowest- 17fps
PCI-e lowest- 24fps

ROW:


School
outside view- lowest value
AGP-26 fps
PCI-e 39 fps

Periscope view of cruiser- lowest value
AGP- 35 fps
PCI-e 41 fps

Ambush
outside view
AGP- lowest- 17fps, average 20 fps
PCI-e lowest- 24fps, avg 25 fps

Periscope view
AGP- lowest 20fps
PCI-e lowest 31

Pearl
AGP- lowest- 16fps
PCI-e lowest- 19fps

All in all, not a bad performance considering the 2600 is clocked slower than the 1950, is an AGP card, and is on a system with slower memory and less memory.

In most situations, the framerates stay high enough to allow for smooth viewing. I think this bodes well for the HD385o AGP card which nas a LOT more horsepawer than the 2600.

Most surprising thing for ATi owners will show up in the following pictures:
http://www.kickinbak.com/posts/2600-1.jpg
Wait a minute- do you see what i see ;)

How about this:
http://www.kickinbak.com/posts/2600-2.jpg
And then this
http://www.kickinbak.com/posts/2600-3.jpg

There is one drawback, there seems to be a problem in ROW with the sun appearing through the water once it's below the horizon. THis did not happen in the stock version, so I'm posting a message for Leo in the ROW thread.

[Greentimbers]

Thanks for the info, that is good news for us AGP card users, I currently have an ATI X800 256MB card,

[leovampire]

ATI will still not give you all the effect's people get from an NVIDIA card.

http://image.compusa.com/prodimages/26/9e1008ea-aec1-44d4-a187-496a6d4f6d58.gif (http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?pfp=BROWSE&N=200105+4294963881+502409+4294962973&Ne=302706&product_code=341271)BFG Technologies GeForce 7600 GS OC Video Card, 8x AGP, 512MB DDR2 (http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?pfp=BROWSE&N=200105+4294963881+502409+4294962973&Ne=302706&product_code=341271)


- Product Number: 341271
- Mfr. Part #: BFGR76512GSOC
- Brand: BFG Technologies Video Cards (http://www.compusa.com/products/products.asp?N=200105+4294963881+502409+4294962973 +405322)

[SteveW1]

Untill I can convince the other half to let me buy a new card my 7300 GT will just have to make do even though I still get good FPS with a full complement of ROW graphics running, no CTD's or slow downs even in the largest convoys I've run into so far.

[MONOLITH]

Anyway- looks like things are looking up for AGP users with fast enough CPU's.

Any more info on this aspect?

AMD/ATI sight has no specific specs on this yet, but under their 3800 series specs (which only lists PCI express at the moment), there are no CPU minimums.



My first thought when reading your quoted line was that would be a big issue; because most people with an AGP slot (like me) means it's an aging motherboard. Aging motherboards usually means a slower CPU or limited RAM. Plus many are 4x times only, no 8x times support.

However, based on no CPU parameters listed in the 3800 spec requirements, perhaps it doesn't matter.

If any knows, please chime in.

[Rockin Robbins]

EVGA has a superclocked AGP 7600GT 512mb available for under $200. http://www.evga.com/products/moreinfo.asp?pn=512-A8-N559-TR&family=18. This thing should really cook for AGP. Also, EVGA cards come with a lifetime warranty with teeth!:up:

It needs 18 amps on the +12 volt rail. Wonder why I'm so careful about that nowdays?:hmm:

[MONOLITH]

I actually have two power supplies hooked up to my rig at the moment. This occurred because I bought an X1950 Pro card, which is notoriously a power hog. Along with it I bought a 550watt PSU, and it turned out even that wasn't enough to run the card and the rest of my rig.

So I have the 550 watt powering my motherboard and the X1950 pro, and the stock 350 watt running my disc drives, sound card and Agiea physics card.

A dual power sytem works great, you just have to make sure the mobo and the vid card are on the same source, or it doesn't work.

[AVGWarhawk]

Read here in general topics:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=125128

[Rockin Robbins]

Isn't that also a PCI-E card? Poor AGP guys are being forced to update their motherboards, memory, CPU, graphics cards....... they're just getting destroyed here.

Now if you have a slot 939 AMD chip you can get away with updating the motherboard and keeping the CPU, but any way you look at it, hard compromises have to be made, either with lesser equipment or lesser wallet.:doh:

[Hartmann]

how works this 7600gs card in sh4 ?? i want to replace my 6600 for a better card and 7600gs is really cheap now:hmm:



ATI will still not give you all the effect's people get from an NVIDIA card.

http://image.compusa.com/prodimages/26/9e1008ea-aec1-44d4-a187-496a6d4f6d58.gif (http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?pfp=BROWSE&N=200105+4294963881+502409+4294962973&Ne=302706&product_code=341271)BFG Technologies GeForce 7600 GS OC Video Card, 8x AGP, 512MB DDR2 (http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?pfp=BROWSE&N=200105+4294963881+502409+4294962973&Ne=302706&product_code=341271)


- Product Number: 341271
- Mfr. Part #: BFGR76512GSOC
- Brand: BFG Technologies Video Cards (http://www.compusa.com/products/products.asp?N=200105+4294963881+502409+4294962973 +405322)

[donut]

EVGA 512-A8-N559 GeForce 7600GT 512MB 128-bit GDDR2 AGP 8X Video Card - Retail <H3 class=zmp>$124.99>>http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130099&Tpk=512-A8-N559-TR</H3>Let me know what you deside,Old 6600,having trouble rendering these days?>Donut

[Rockin Robbins]

EVGA 512-A8-N559 GeForce 7600GT 512MB 128-bit GDDR2 AGP 8X Video Card - Retail <H3 class=zmp>$124.99>>http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130099&Tpk=512-A8-N559-TR</H3>Let me know what you deside,Old 6600,having trouble rendering these days?>Donut

That is my exact card (mine is PCI-E version) and it works well. I get 25 fps with external camera with stuff going on, about 80 in map and control room view. It is possible to slow the card down with high TC in high traffic areas. I'm running graphics WFO at 1152 x 864. I have a slot 939 Asus motherboard and Athlon 64 3700+ CPU, hardly state of the art.

[jazman]

Isn't that also a PCI-E card? Poor AGP guys are being forced to update their motherboards, memory, CPU, graphics cards....... they're just getting destroyed here.
:

And possibly power supply as well.

Yeah, I'm stuck at this giant upgrade step. I'm just going to have to wait awhile, fortunately I get just good enough FPS (21-28) to be playable. Yeah, that's playable for me. When my ship comes in, I hope I don't sink it.

[donut]

Isn't that also a PCI-E card? Poor AGP guys are being forced to update their motherboards, memory, CPU, graphics cards....... they're just getting destroyed here.
:

And possibly power supply as well.

Yeah, I'm stuck at this giant upgrade step. I'm just going to have to wait awhile, fortunately I get just good enough FPS (21-28) to be playable. Yeah, that's playable for me. When my ship comes in, I hope I don't sink it.
EVGA 512-A8-N559 GeForce 7600GT 512MB 128-bit GDDR2 AGP 8X Video Card - Retail <H3 class=zmp>$124.99>>http://www.newegg.com

[jazman]

EVGA 512-A8-N559 GeForce 7600GT 512MB 128-bit GDDR2 AGP 8X Video Card - Retail <H3 class=zmp>$124.99>>http://www.newegg.com

I have an XFX 7600 GT. The last upgrade for this box.

[d@rk51d3]

Isn't that also a PCI-E card? Poor AGP guys are being forced to update their motherboards, memory, CPU, graphics cards....... they're just getting destroyed here.


My predicament exactly. Do I stick with my P4 2.8 prescott, 2 Gigs ddr, and update my 9600xt to something with a bit more muscle, for around $300.......

.....or do I spend a $1000+ und update the lot.

I just get that niggling feeling that a $300 agp card, may be overkill on my relatively redundant machine.:hmm:

[bookworm_020]

I can't upgrade my card beyond a Ge Force 6200, due to the fact my coputer will only accept low profile AGP cards!:damn::damn::damn:

[scrag]

Okay I share the same problem - I have a Geforce 6800 GT am looking to upgrade my video card (like to stick with Nvidea for now) and ad memory (currently have 1 gig). It is PC3200 DDR 400 (ASUS PC800E Deluxe - any tips?

[Torplexed]

I can't upgrade my card beyond a Ge Force 6200, due to the fact my coputer will only accept low profile AGP cards!:damn::damn::damn:

You and me both. It's new computer time. Just gotta get that paper route up and running again so I can get the money. :smug:

[klh]

EVGA 512-A8-N559 GeForce 7600GT 512MB 128-bit GDDR2 AGP 8X Video Card - Retail <H3 class=zmp>$124.99>>http://www.newegg.com

I have an XFX 7600 GT. The last upgrade for this box.

I also have an XFX 7600GT AGP. Works great for SH4 as long as I don't turn on the volumetric fog.

[Hartmann]

Ok i´m going to buy a 7600 gs or gt with 256 mb of dd2, if i can found one , .. is cheap and it will be the last upgrade before i earn enough "renown" for a XXI computer.:hmm:

Agp cards starts to be difficult to find here and the options are limited

[Elder-Pirate]

ATI will still not give you all the effect's people get from an NVIDIA card.

http://image.compusa.com/prodimages/26/9e1008ea-aec1-44d4-a187-496a6d4f6d58.gif (http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?pfp=BROWSE&N=200105+4294963881+502409+4294962973&Ne=302706&product_code=341271)BFG Technologies GeForce 7600 GS OC Video Card, 8x AGP, 512MB DDR2 (http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?pfp=BROWSE&N=200105+4294963881+502409+4294962973&Ne=302706&product_code=341271)


- Product Number: 341271
- Mfr. Part #: BFGR76512GSOC
- Brand: BFG Technologies Video Cards (http://www.compusa.com/products/products.asp?N=200105+4294963881+502409+4294962973 +405322)


Uh huh and look at the price of this Geforce 7600 GS OC ............Nice :rock:

http://www.bfgstore.com/

But I've the 7800 GS OC 256mb and it rocks the socks off my five year old ASUS A7N8X Deluxe Mamaboard and it cost twice as much a year and a half ago as this 7600 GS does now..
But I still say that 7600 GS OC is at a nice price at BFG for you guys that could use it.

Do I hear sleigh bells already ? HO HO HO

[Rockin Robbins]

Looks like BFG has a lifetime warranty (limited) too! Anybody have any experience with it? When companies treat you well it's time to be very loud about it to teach other vendors that standing behind their products is their best sales tool.:up:

[swdw]

I apologize for the delay- check the first post for test results and images- I've edited it with the details

But how about this pic
How about this- yes this is an ATi card
http://www.kickinbak.com/posts/2600-2.jpg

[Elder-Pirate]

Looks like BFG has a lifetime warranty (limited) too! Anybody have any experience with it? When companies treat you well it's time to be very loud about it to teach other vendors that standing behind their products is their best sales tool.:up:


Don't know about the "Limited part" for they have replaced two cards for me in the last five years and there were no hassles at all. My last card was smoked because of a bad tempered power supply ( You wouldn't know about something like that though would you Rockin Robbins. :roll: :lol: ) and was replaced in less than one week after sending "ole smokey" to them. Since then I've purchased a Geforce 7800 GS OC 256 MB from BFG. They are good people to deal with.

Now just what I'm going to do with a new FX 5950 Ultra 256MB AGP card sitting in a box that's collecting dust is beyond me. Card has about five hours on it when I received new 7800 GS.

BFG is Illinois based.

[7Enigma]

Okay I share the same problem - I have a Geforce 6800 GT am looking to upgrade my video card (like to stick with Nvidea for now) and ad memory (currently have 1 gig). It is PC3200 DDR 400 (ASUS PC800E Deluxe - any tips?

Same setup here (A64 3200+ O.C.'d to 2.4GHz). When I built my system I had the option to get a PCI-E mobo, but decided to save some cash and at the time the drivers for these new boards were not as good as the current 939 AGP boards. What a stupid mistake.

I've decided that rather than try to hobble along with this system I need to build a new C2D/45nm system with one of the new Nvidia cards (once the better performing ones get the die shrink).

The cool thing right now is that with the new die shrink of both CPU (soon to come), and video card (already here for the 8800GT and soon for the faster cards), my current 450w Antec Neo power supply will be beefy enough to run my new setup. That savings, along with canabalizing my existing setup (case, PSU, DVD-drive, sound card), will allow me to get a REALLY nice system for <$1000. I just can't justify $200 or so for something that already would be struggling with existing games, let alone trying to hang on in the near future.

[jazman]

The cool thing right now is that with the new die shrink of both CPU (soon to come), and video card (already here for the 8800GT and soon for the faster cards), my current 450w Antec Neo power supply will be beefy enough to run my new setup.

I'm intrigued by the power supply thing. I have a 450W Enermax, and was just thinking (without thinking) I'd need to upgrade that, too. I'll have to spec things out first.

[Stealth Hunter]

ATI will still not give you all the effect's people get from an NVIDIA card.

http://image.compusa.com/prodimages/26/9e1008ea-aec1-44d4-a187-496a6d4f6d58.gif (http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?pfp=BROWSE&N=200105+4294963881+502409+4294962973&Ne=302706&product_code=341271)BFG Technologies GeForce 7600 GS OC Video Card, 8x AGP, 512MB DDR2 (http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?pfp=BROWSE&N=200105+4294963881+502409+4294962973&Ne=302706&product_code=341271)


- Product Number: 341271
- Mfr. Part #: BFGR76512GSOC
- Brand: BFG Technologies Video Cards (http://www.compusa.com/products/products.asp?N=200105+4294963881+502409+4294962973 +405322)

AMEN.

Nvidia always has been, and always will be, the King of Graphics Cards.

[7Enigma]

The cool thing right now is that with the new die shrink of both CPU (soon to come), and video card (already here for the 8800GT and soon for the faster cards), my current 450w Antec Neo power supply will be beefy enough to run my new setup.
I'm intrigued by the power supply thing. I have a 450W Enermax, and was just thinking (without thinking) I'd need to upgrade that, too. I'll have to spec things out first.

Do some research on your exact power supply to find things such as staying within spec during higher load conditions, as well as its efficiency rating. It really is cool with the die shrinking going on. Anantech.com just did a couple reviews with the new parts and it was shocking that under load the SYSTEM power wasn't going much over 250w.

[Rockin Robbins]

Don't know about the "Limited part" for they have replaced two cards for me in the last five years and there were no hassles at all. My last card was smoked because of a bad tempered power supply ( You wouldn't know about something like that though would you Rockin Robbins. :roll: :lol: ) and was replaced in less than one week after sending "ole smokey" to them. Since then I've purchased a Geforce 7800 GS OC 256 MB from BFG. They are good people to deal with.

Now just what I'm going to do with a new FX 5950 Ultra 256MB AGP card sitting in a box that's collecting dust is beyond me. Card has about five hours on it when I received new 7800 GS.

BFG is Illinois based.
So now we have TWO great graphics card manufacturers who have stood the test of fire (literally almost). Near as I can tell all warranties are limited because the law makes them use the word if there are any limitations at all on the warranty. Of course we wouldn't expect anyone to replace a card we ran over with a truck, but unless they limit the warranty's scope, that's exactly what they would have to do.

This has been about the best thread ever in SUBSIM. I'm convinced that hardware problems are, along with software conflicts, the major reason people have difficulty playing Silent Hunter 4. SH4 is definitely a 2007 game which cannot be played satisfactorily on a 2005 machine! BUT that 2005 machine might be upgradeable to something SH4 can live on comfortably and this thread has plenty of information on how to do that. Great job guys!

On the other hand there are people like poor swdw over there, crippled with their ATI (oops. wasn't supposed to mention that OTHER card in this thread:oops:) cards who have to make believe they're happy with their mistakes, I mean choices.:88) Everybody be nice and say it's a nice picture.:up: Just kidding, it IS a great shot. Can you imagine someone telling you three years ago that it came from a game? I would have laughed at them.

Hey, I have a great CGA card I'll sell you cheap it has 16 COLORS and 320 x 480 resolution! Runs like a scared rabbit too! You'll have to upgrade your motherboard to get those newfangled ISA slots, works best with a whiz-bang 286 processor and DR-DOS...

[simkodavid]

Thanks SWDW,

I found X1950 Pro AGP, should I prefer it over ATi HD2600 Pro AGP ?

About HD2400, I'm thinking about assembling an HTPC, isn't HD2400 with its H/W decoders and dual DAC perfect for that ?

Thanks in advance

David

[7Enigma]

Thanks SWDW,

I found X1950 Pro AGP, should I prefer it over ATi HD2600 Pro AGP ?

About HD2400, I'm thinking about assembling an HTPC, isn't HD2400 with its H/W decoders and dual DAC perfect for that ?

Thanks in advance

David

For the HTPC I would choose the HD2400 easily. The onboard decoding and low power consumption are an excellent choice for a small box passively-cooled or slow fan actively cooled setup.

[DrBeast]

Thanks SWDW,
I found X1950 Pro AGP, should I prefer it over ATi HD2600 Pro AGP ?

YES, definitely!

[DrBeast]

But please make sure your existing power supply (and case cooling) is capable of handling the power draw of this card, its no joke, its a hog! :)

Well, that's pretty much a given for all new(ish) graphics cards. But you're absolutely right, a good power supply unit is vital.

[7Enigma]

But please make sure your existing power supply (and case cooling) is capable of handling the power draw of this card, its no joke, its a hog! :)

Well, that's pretty much a given for all new(ish) graphics cards. But you're absolutely right, a good power supply unit is vital.

I actually deleted my previous post. The anatech review I was reading was never made clear (until the comments) that it was TOTAL SYSTEM POWER draw (181watts), not just the card. While not wonderfully efficient, its not near the hog I thought it was.

[swdw]

Thanks SWDW,

I found X1950 Pro AGP, should I prefer it over ATi HD2600 Pro AGP ?

About HD2400, I'm thinking about assembling an HTPC, isn't HD2400 with its H/W decoders and dual DAC perfect for that ?

Thanks in advance

David
The x1950 is faster for gaming, but you may want to see what the HD 3850 AGP launch prices are. I've seen the 3850 PCI-e for as low as 180.00 US. Figure the AGP version will cost a little more. The HD38xx series is on a smaller die, uses less power than the 2900 and is a Dx10.1 and shader 4.1 card. ATi has also come out with a cooling fan and rereference design that makes this one of the quitest fan cooled cards on the market. If I'd kown that card was coming out a couple months ago, I'd have waited for it instead of buying the x1950.

For the HTPC. I wouldn't bother with the 2400. If you live in the US, Newegg has an HIS 2600 for $85 including shipping. I bought the sapphire 512MB version and it's running very quietly even with the fan. Reviews on sites dedicated to video said the 2400 was underpowered, but the 2600 worked great on both HD DVD and Blu Ray decoding. Nvidia doesn't have anything in the price range that works as well for decoding HD videeo. The 2400 I tried that was passively cooled and turned out to run hotter than the 2600.

Despite all the slamming of ATi on this forum, I also do some video editing and ATi has always worked better for me in this arena. That's why I chose the x1950 for this system. More bang for the buck with what I do besides gaming. (Yes there are other computer uses than gaming ;) )

The 2900 and 8800 were compared for HD video and came out dead even on everything but price. They were comparing a $250 ATi card vs a $400 Nvidia card. Couldn't use a 7xxx series nvidia card because it doesn't do COMPLETE hardware H.264 decoding (the 19x0 annd 7xxx series cards assist where as the 2X00 series and 8x00 series do complete decoding in hardware).

So back to the original question- get the 2600, not the 2400 for an HTCP computer. As for the x1950 AGP for gaming. The launch price of the new HD3850 may make it a better choice than the x1950.

And ignore the slamming of ATi.;)

Not all of us have lots of extra cash to throw around, so some people are looking for a good AGP option and despite the Nvidia fan club here, they just don't have that many options for an AGP owner. Plus you do get a sun glare and lens flare out of the newer series cards.

One note on the 2600. It ran IL2 1946 on the test system with all settings maxxed flawlessly. ATi has always handled openGL extremely well because of their FireGL series of workstation cards.

[7Enigma]

I've been trying to ignore the Nvidia fan club as well. I just don't understand how some people are so die-hard for one company or another.

My previous video cards in order:

-3dFX

-Nvidia GTS

-ATI 9800Pro

-Nvidia 6800GT

-Next card? Most likely Nvidia but who knows who will have the best $/performance?


Processor choices in order:

-Intel 486

-Intel Pentium 120MHz

-Intel Pentium 3 533MHz

-AMD Athlon Thunderbird (1.33GHz)

-AMD Athlon A64 3200+

-Next chip? Unless AMD has some scary secret(s) it will definitely be an Intel chip.


This back and forth (though seemingly one-sided the last year on both GPU and CPU fronts) only helps consumers. I do not wish to go back to the $4000 computers with marginal better performance!